Butch5

There's no mistake. Paul says nothing about a spirit. He clearly states that he's looking for an immortal body. The idea of a disembodied spirit is being imposed on the passage. The idea that spirits leave the body and ascend into the heavens is from Greek philosophy not the Scriptures. I'll ask again, please show me somewhere in Scripture that teaches that man has this spirit.

House of cards? Everything I said was sound. I'm not sure why you posted 1 John 2:19, we weren't discussing Gnosticism. Regarding Acts 13:48, are implying the Calvinist understanding of that passage? If so I'll have to disagree with you on that. Why do suppose that the English translations since the time of the Reformers have changed the word order of that passage? The Greek text says,' and believed, as many as, were ordained to eternal life. Ἀκούοντα δὲ τὰ ἔθνη ἔχαιρον καὶ ἐδόξαζον τὸν λόγον τοῦ κυρίου καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον· (Act 13:48 BGT) I've bolded the word for believe and underlined the word for appointed. I've asked quite a few who are versed in the Greek language if there is a reason to change the order of the text. No one has given a reason for changing it. When we take into account that the earliest English translations have believe before appointed and that the change only showed up with the reformation, it seems fairly clear to me that this change was done to support Reformation doctrine. Here is Tyndale 1534 TNT Acts 13:48 The getyls hearde and were glad and glorified the worde of the Lorde and beleved: even as many as were ordeyned vnto eternall lyfe. (Act 13:48 TNT) The same thing was done in 1 Peter. The word "elect" was moved from verse 1 to verse 2 which again seems to have been done so to support Reformation doctrine. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1Pe 1:1 KJG) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied! (1Pe 1:1-2 YLT) Notice that the KJV has the word "eklektois" is in the beginning of verse in Young's Literal translation which follows the Greek text it is verse one and speaks of the choice (elect) sojourners. The KJV says elect according to the foreknowledge of God. That is not what the Greek text says. So here again it appears the word order was changed in favor of a Reformation doctrine. However, there is an even larger problem with the Calvinist interpretation of that verse. In verse 46 just two verses earlier Paul said that the Jews had judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. So, the Jews in verse 46 made the determination that they were unworthy, it was their choice. To argue that the Gentiles were ordained and had no choice leaves one with one of two option, one the two passages contradict each other or there are different methods of salvation where some people get to choice and others get appointed without any input. Either way I don't think a case can be made for either,

Lazarus and the rich man do not jive with your understanding, Samuel after death talking to Saul does not agree, and Paul does not agree 2Cor 5:8... It is clear you are ignoring these accounts to fit your idea into this soul sleep... Rev 6:9-11 9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. NKJV No one asleep communicates to another! Love, Steven I've not ignored anything. Are you suggesting that these passage contradict what the OT says about a man's death? I've already you that Paul is talking about the resurrected body, not about floating around as spirit. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable about the rejection of the Jewish leadership. If you look at it in context you see that there is nothing else about an afterlife. Additionally, that are multiple problems if one interprets that as a literal account of what happens to a man at death. For one thing in the parable the rich man is suffering torment in the flames in Hades. However, the place of torment is not Hades, it's Gehenna, Jesus Himself said so. He spoke of Gehenna saying where the flame is not quenched and their worm does no die. Another problem you have having people judged before the final judgment. There are still more that I could list. Regarding Samuel, if you read the passage the woman said she saw "gods" not spirits. Paul said that the "gods" were demons. The passage also says that Saul "perceived" that it was Samuel, that doesn't mean it was. You still have not shown me anything in Scripture that teaches that man has a spirit that lives on. All you've given me is a few passage from which you've "inferred" that idea. Paul is very clear about the spirit of man going directly to God. The body is what is changed at the resurrection. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NLT) 6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. I've already pointed put that Paul is talking about the resurrection. He said he doesn't want to be with a body but wants the incorruptible one. Paul, here makes absolutely no mention a spirit that lives on after death.

Lazarus and the rich man do not jive with your understanding, Samuel after death talking to Saul does not agree, and Paul does not agree 2Cor 5:8... It is clear you are ignoring these accounts to fit your idea into this soul sleep... Rev 6:9-11 9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. NKJV No one asleep communicates to another! Love, Steven I've not ignored anything. Are you suggesting that these passages contradict what the OT says about a man's death? I've already shown that Paul is talking about the resurrected body, not about floating around as spirit. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable about the rejection of the Jewish leadership. If you look at it in context you'll see that there is nothing else about an afterlife. Additionally, there are multiple problems if one interprets that as a literal account of what happens to a man at death. For one thing in the parable the rich man is suffering torment in the flames in Hades. However, the place of torment is not Hades, it's Gehenna, Jesus Himself said so. He spoke of Gehenna saying, where the flame is not quenched and their worm does not die. Another problem you have is having people judged before the final judgment. There are still more that I could list. Regarding Samuel, if you read the passage the woman said she saw "gods" not spirits. Paul said that the "gods" were demons. The passage also says that Saul "perceived" that it was Samuel, that doesn't mean it was. You still have not shown me anything in Scripture that teaches that man has a spirit that lives on. All you've given me is a few passage from which you've "inferred" that idea.

There are two deaths taught in The Bible: 1st physical, 2nd eternal separation from God.... The first of course need no support as all men are appointed once to die then the judgment Heb 9:27-28 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, NKJV The second is eternal separation in lake of fire Rev 20:11-15 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. NKJV Love, Steven I dont' see how any of this is making your case. Actually, separation from God is a result of death not a definition of it. Both deaths are physical, men live and die. When Christ returns all will resurrected some will receive eternal life and some will be cast into the lake of fire.

John 3:5-8 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." NKJV Ever look in a mirror? That is called image and the image is restored in The Lord's Work... yet look at how it is for us: were in a body that we do not want and are very much at war with even while looking for a promised body that is not here yet.... that s/Spiritual desire to clothed with the new body even while at complete odds with the present body is what in your opinion? For me it is and in body yet out of body desire for new body perfection... so in Spirit I bring this unwanted body in use for my God's Glory even the while I am yearning in s/Spirit to be clothed with the promised new body of perfection... Love, Steven Dude, what are you talking about? God's breath is in man, that doesn't mean that man has a spirit that lives on after he dies. If you look at the creation account in Genesis you'll see that man consists of a body (dust of the ground) and the breath/spirit of life. It is God's breath/spirit that He breathed into Adam. When a man dies that breath/spirit returns to God and the man returns to the dust. 18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:1 KJV) Job said if God were to retrieve his spirit/breath all flesh would die. 14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

Actually, There was no punctuation in the Greek text. It is the translators who added the punctuation where they "think" it should be. Jesus' statement to the their can be read two different ways and both are grammatically correct in the Greek text. Simply moving the comma over on place changes the meaning of the sentence. NAS Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luk 23:43 NAS) Below I have moved the comma from before the word "today" to after it. Notice the difference in meaning. And He said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise." When the comma is placed before "today" the reading requires that the thief be in Paradise with Jesus that day. However, when the comma is moved and placed after the word "today" It reads "I tell you today". The second reading does not require that the thief be in Paradise with Jesus that day. The second reading better fits with the context of the Scriptures than the first one does. The whole comma thing can be easily seen in which way it is to be placed by The Scripture itself... for one the common sense of the reading- why would Jesus be telling them when He is speaking- as it is a literal historical account when He is speaking at that time or day? The account of Lazarus is interesting as to literary lines parable or account but is a mute point as to the purpose-> as truth presented in parable or actual event remains truth! He was in a conscience place of keeping till and all elements of human interaction was present... The Lord freed them by His Life covering and now we, (those who have received Him in the death of themselves), are with Him as His Word says 2 Cor 5:6-8 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. NKJV As above this and the account of Lazarus are conjoined we come from here, by death, knowing all forms of consciousness, as now, with The Lord's Presence... Love, Steven Hi, We use similar language still today. How many time have you heard someone say, I'm telling you right now, if you don't go up there and... There are similar constructions that Jesus used that can be looked at also to see how He used the language. However, as I said in the other post. The commas being after the word today fits the context of Scripture better. If the comma is placed before the word today it has Jesus in Paradise that day, yet the Scripture tell us He was in the grave for 3 days. Regarding 2 Cor 5. There is no conscious state after death until the resurrection. It is the resurrection that Paul has in mind in 2 Cor.5 If you look at the context he actually says he doesn't want to be out of the body. KJV 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (2Co 5:1-6 KJV) Notice Paul doesn't want to be unclothed, without a body but rather clothed upon. The Greek word translated "clothed upon" means, to put on over, or to overclothe. The whole context of this passage is the resurrected body, Paul has said nothing at all about a disembodied spirit. Paul was Pharisee and a learned one, he was well familiar with the OT Scriptures and the don't teach anything at all that would indicate the existence of a disembodied spirit Please forgive the obvious Samuel, but God The Father Himself 'IS, WAS AND WILL BE' Spirit... Paul didn't know His condition when translated into the witness of God 2Cor 12:1-4 -> this alone indicates an unimportant aspect when in the presence of The Lord! So maybe a rethink on what you've stated or understood ... Love, Steven Yes, God is spirit, that doesn't mean man is. I'm not sure what you think is so obvious. There is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches man has a conscious disembodied spirit. That idea is inferred by some from several passages of Scripture but it's not taught anywhere in the Scriptures.

Actually, There was no punctuation in the Greek text. It is the translators who added the punctuation where they "think" it should be. Jesus' statement to the their can be read two different ways and both are grammatically correct in the Greek text. Simply moving the comma over on place changes the meaning of the sentence. NAS Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luk 23:43 NAS) Below I have moved the comma from before the word "today" to after it. Notice the difference in meaning. And He said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise." When the comma is placed before "today" the reading requires that the thief be in Paradise with Jesus that day. However, when the comma is moved and placed after the word "today" It reads "I tell you today". The second reading does not require that the thief be in Paradise with Jesus that day. The second reading better fits with the context of the Scriptures than the first one does. The whole comma thing can be easily seen in which way it is to be placed by The Scripture itself... for one the common sense of the reading- why would Jesus be telling them when He is speaking- as it is a literal historical account when He is speaking at that time or day? The account of Lazarus is interesting as to literary lines parable or account but is a mute point as to the purpose-> as truth presented in parable or actual event remains truth! He was in a conscience place of keeping till and all elements of human interaction was present... The Lord freed them by His Life covering and now we, (those who have received Him in the death of themselves), are with Him as His Word says 2 Cor 5:6-8 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. NKJV As above this and the account of Lazarus are conjoined we come from here, by death, knowing all forms of consciousness, as now, with The Lord's Presence... Love, Steven Hi, We use similar language still today. How many time have you heard someone say, I'm telling you right now, if you don't go up there and... There are similar constructions that Jesus used that can be looked at also to see how He used the language. However, as I said in the other post. The commas being after the word today fits the context of Scripture better. If the comma is placed before the word today it has Jesus in Paradise that day, yet the Scripture tell us He was in the grave for 3 days. Regarding 2 Cor 5. There is no conscious state after death until the resurrection. It is the resurrection that Paul has in mind in 2 Cor.5 If you look at the context he actually says he doesn't want to be out of the body. KJV 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (2Co 5:1-6 KJV) Notice Paul doesn't want to be unclothed, without a body but rather clothed upon. The Greek word translated "clothed upon" means, to put on over, or to overclothe. The whole context of this passage is the resurrected body, Paul has said nothing at all about a disembodied spirit. Paul was Pharisee and a learned one, he was well familiar with the OT Scriptures and the don't teach anything at all that would indicate the existence of a disembodied spirit

No, the foundation of the Christian faith is in the OT. The entire Bible is the working out of the promises that God made to Abraham. OT = the law NT = the faith Actually, the Law was given to the Jews. Abraham was in the OT and not under the Law. Additionally, the OT is as much about faith as the NT. However, as I pointed out the Christian hope is based on the promises God made to Abraham. Without the OT there are no promises to fulfill, thus there would be no NT. i agree the law was given to and for the Jews. I agree Abraham was not under the law and he was in the OT. Yes their is a lot of faith expressed and taught in OT. Today because Jesus came to earth I use only NT although Ive read OT and NT twice straight through. I stay mainly in NT now days. sorry bout bold type Hi Coheir, My point is that it is the promises that were made to Abraham that the Christian looks forward to. God promised to give the promised land to Abraham and his Seed as an everlasting possession. Scripture says he never received any of the land, therefore for God to honor His promise to Abraham He must give him the land in the resurrection. The land was promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Paul says that it is this promise that is the believers hope or the "Anchor of the Soul" 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.€ 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:8-29 KJV) Paul uses the phrase, "the blessing of Abraham" this phrase only appears one other place in the Scriptures and it refers to the land, the inheritance promised to Abraham. KJV Genesis 28:1 And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan. 2 Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother. 3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; 4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. (Gen 28:1-4 KJV) Paul said that the "blessing lf Abraham" might come on the Gentiles through faith in Christ. It is this promise that is the final hope of the Christian. The promised land inheritance was made to Abraham and his Seed. The Jews understood that collectively, however, Paul points out that God did not mean seed and of many (plural) seeds but rather He meant it singularly as of one, He meant Christ. Paul goes on to say that those who have been baptized are Abraham's seed and heir according to the promise. That is the land promise. So you see, the OT is absolutely essential to our understanding of the hope in the NT. Without the OT we would have no understanding of what was promising. Very simply, there are a number of promises made to Abraham. The land promise went to Isaac and Jacob, and their physical descendents, forever. The Messianic promises were about the seed, and go to those who receive their inheritance because of the seed. In otherwords, the land promise is a promise to physical descendents and the seed promise is to spiritual descendents. Ultimately, there will be a New earth, and a New Jerusalem, and this promise is thru the seed or spiritual descendents. At that time, the New earth will only be occupied by the Seed and the Spiritual descendents. All others will have been caste into the lake of fire. Actually the land was promised to Abraham himself as an everlasting possession. The physical Jews thought that they were the "seed" that was also included in the promise, however, Paul argues that that is not the case, He says the "Seed" is Christ. That's why Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be born again. Nicodemus was a Jew and as such believed that he was an heir of the promises made to Abraham. Jesus tells him no, your physical birth is not sufficient to gain you entrance into the kingdom of God, you must be born again. All the physical Jews were given was a temporary allotment in the land as long as they kept the law. Paul argues in Galatians 3 that the law cannot overturn the promise God made to Abraham. God also promised to give that land to Isaac and Jacob. These men and Christ are the only ones who were given this promise.

Hi Tony, Paul does use "our" after He includes the Gentiles. Regarding Romans 9 that you've posted here, am I correct in thinking that you believe this is referring to Gentiles? If so I'll have to disagree. He says they are not all Israel that are of Israel. He's eliminating some of the fleshly Jews from the promises. I believe the second reference to Israel is Jacob. In other words they are not all Israel that are of Jacob. Not all of Jacobs offspring are the children of promise, but in Isaac your seed will be called. I'll have to send you the link in a pm. The last link I posted got removed this one probably will too if post it.

asper, on 19 Sept 2013 - 4:03 PM, said: Hi butch, Let’s break it down to even smaller pieces. Ok, so what I see you saying is that Paul and the jews of the flesh who believed have already received their inheritance which is the promised land which Joshua led them into and we share in that inheritance later. But in reality they personally have not received the promised land and if that’s what it is talking about they will actually receive that later? Inherit can be many things Mt 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Mt 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Mr 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? Lu 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? Lu 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Ga 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. 1Pe 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But we have gotten off track. I had already said that verse 11 and 12 are talking about Israel of the flesh who have believed. 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. Verse 11 refers back to verse 10. 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: That is the reason for we also or also we Young’s literal translation, Eph 1:11 in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will, So you have not given me any compelling evidence that changes the fact that verses 3 through 10 are not about Israel of the flesh who believed, but is about all believers as I have been showing you through many sources. God bless, Tony Hi Tony, Let me clarify a point. I'm not saying verse 3-12 are only about fleshly Jews who believed. I'm saying it is about all of the Jews who were under the Mosaic covenant. God has done all of those things in verses 3-12 for the Jews who were under the Mosaic covenant. They received an inheritance in the land. Remember the Greek word translated inheritance means an allotment. God told the Jews that the land was His. However, He gave the 12 tribes an allotment in the land. Their possession of the land was conditional on their keeping the Law. God said if they kept it they could stay, in they didn't He was going to drive them out of the land. That's the inheritance that Paul is referring to in verse 11. In verse 14 Paul speaks of "our" inheritance (allotment) and includes himself with the Gentiles. Here he is speaking of believers who have a future inheritance (allotment) in the land. God promised the Promised Land to Abraham as an everlasting possession. In Acts 7 Stephen said that Abraham didn't receive any of that land. If God is going to keep His promise to Abraham it has to be in the resurrection when everything is restored. In Galatians 3 Paul makes the argument that the inheritance (allotment) was made to Abraham by a promise and was not through the Law. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:5-29 KJV) Paul uses the phrase “the blessing of Abraham” and says that it might come on the Gentiles through faith in Christ. The phrase “the blessing of Abraham” only appears one other time in Scripture and it’s talking about inheriting the land promised to Abraham. KJV Genesis 28:1 And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan. 2 Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother. 3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; 4And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. (Gen 28:1-4 KJV) He makes the argument that the Law which came 430 years after the promise was made to Abraham cannot overturn the promise. Therefore the permanent inheritance (allotment) of the land comes through faith in Christ and not through the Law. He goes on to say that those who have been baptized into Christ are Abraham’s seed and heir according to the promise. The promise is the eternal land inheritance. The Gentiles after they believed became heirs along with Abraham of the promised land. If you’re interested in a more detailed explanation of this subject I have written a paper on it and would be happy to send you a link. The paper goes into much more detail and give a lot of supporting Scripture. Regarding the passages you posted, if you look at them the inheritance is the same in each of them. Some say the Kingdom of God and some say eternal life but the two are synonymous. If one enters the kingdom they have eternal life and if one has eternal life they are in the kingdom. The inheritance in the Scriptures is the Promised Land. Regarding verses 3-10, the pronouns are the same from verse 3 through verse 12. I don’t see how anyone can make a distinction between verses 3-10 and 11 and 12. There is no change in the pronouns until verse 13.

Hi Tony, The we in verse 11 have already obtained an inheritance, the other group had not. The other had only received the down payment on a future inheritance. Paul uses the past tense regarding the inheritance of the first group. 7 And Moses called unto Joshua, and said unto him in the sight of all Israel, Be strong and of a good courage: for thou must go with this people unto the land which the LORD hath sworn unto their fathers to give them; and thou shalt cause them to inherit it. (Deu 31:7 KJV) This is Israel, the Jews. This is what Paul is referring to in verse 11. The Gentiles had not received and inheritance from God. Verse 11 cannot be speaking of the Gentiles. Therefore, the we, us, our, group cannot be the Gentile Ephesians. Also as I pointed out there's no reason for Paul to pray that God would give them something it he just said God gave it to them. As I also pointed out this is not a new understanding, it s a very old one. Actually, it is the oldest understanding that we have written on the passage. It predates all of these modern commentaries. Hi Butch, You may have one early church father but I am reserving judgment until I feel like looking into it. But I have read some myself on their beliefs and I am not impressed with things like believing in the phoenix or their non agreement on just about everything. When I read their works they don’t speak to me like the Word of God does. Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. So now Paul jumps over to being a gentile? I’m not sure how you get your conclusions but they seem all tangled up to me. 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, When? That in the dispensation of the fulness of times Not back then with Moses. 11 In whom also we And who else has obtained an inheritance? Perhaps this will be clearer Net Bible, 11 In Christ[28] we too have been claimed as God’s own possession,[29] since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will Eph 1:11 (NET1) We too? As opposed to who? Verse 11 28 tn Grk “in whom,” as a continuation of the previous verse. 29 tn Grk “we were appointed by lot.” The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to “appoint a portion by lot” (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant “obtain a portion by lot”). In the passive, as here, the idea is that “we were appointed [as a portion] by lot” (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words “God's own” have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: “In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance.” See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue. sn God's own possession. Although God is not mentioned explicitly in the Greek text, it is clear from the context that he has chosen believers for himself. Just as with the nation Israel, the church is God's chosen portion or possession (cf. Deut 32:8-9). —NET Bible Notes - First Edition 12 so that we, who were the first to set our hope[30] on Christ,[31] would be to the praise of his glory. 13 And when[32] you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation) — when you believed in Christ[33] — you were marked with the seal[34] of the promised Holy Spirit,[35] 14 who is the down payment[36] of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession,[37] to the praise of his glory. Eph 1:12-14 (NET1) Verse 12 30 tn Or “who had already hoped.” 31 tn Or “the Messiah.” Verse 13 32 tn Grk “in whom you also, when...” (continuing the sentence from v. 12). 33 tn Grk “in whom also having believed.” The relative pronoun “whom” has been replaced in the translation with its antecedent (“Christ”) to improve the clarity. 34 tn Or “you were sealed.” 35 tn Grk “the Holy Spirit of promise.” Here ἐπαγγελίας (epangelias, “of promise”) has been translated as an attributive genitive. Verse 14 36 tn Or “first installment,” “pledge,” “deposit.” sn Down payment. The Greek word ἀρραβών (arrabōn) denotes the first payment or first installment of money or goods which serves as a guarantee or pledge for the completion of the transaction. In the NT the term is used only figuratively of the Holy Spirit as the down payment of the blessings promised by God (it is used also in 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5). In the “already - not yet” scheme of the NT the possession of the Spirit now by believers (“already”) can be viewed as a guarantee that God will give them the balance of the promised blessings in the future (“not yet”). 37 tn Grk “the possession.” Verse 15 38 sn The conjunctive phrase For this reason points back to the preceding section, vv. 3-14, which is also summed up in this verse in the expression because I have heard of your faith. In other words, the author's prayer can be made for his audience because he knows that they are true believers —NET Bible Notes - First Edition God bless, Tony Hi Tony, Just because they speak of the Phoenix doesn't mean they believed in it. Paul quoted the Greek poets to, that doesn't mean he was saying everything they wrote was true. Additionally, when I look at the early writers I look at the Ante-Nicene period. I've found that the writers of this period are generally uniform. No, Paul did not suddenly become a Gentile. What he's doing is showing that the Gentiles have been included in the promises to Israel, "after" they believed. The statement "we too" isn't in the Greek text. It read "in who also". Regarding the when, the fullness of the times there is no issue here. Paul explains what God has done for Israel with the purpose towards reconciling all thing is in Christ at the fullness of time. Notice in the notes you posted it says, "appoint a portion by lot". This is a reference to the land Israel inherited, it was appointed to then by lot. I think one reason many Christians miss the significance of this is the Heavenly destiny doctrine. Many Christians don't realize that it is the earth that is going to be the final abode of the Christian and that the land promised to Abraham is the Christian hope. I've just briefly addressed this in another post here.

No, the foundation of the Christian faith is in the OT. The entire Bible is the working out of the promises that God made to Abraham. OT = the law NT = the faith Actually, the Law was given to the Jews. Abraham was in the OT and not under the Law. Additionally, the OT is as much about faith as the NT. However, as I pointed out the Christian hope is based on the promises God made to Abraham. Without the OT there are no promises to fulfill, thus there would be no NT. i agree the law was given to and for the Jews. I agree Abraham was not under the law and he was in the OT. Yes their is a lot of faith expressed and taught in OT. Today because Jesus came to earth I use only NT although Ive read OT and NT twice straight through. I stay mainly in NT now days. sorry bout bold type Hi Coheir, My point is that it is the promises that were made to Abraham that the Christian looks forward to. God promised to give the promised land to Abraham and his Seed as an everlasting possession. Scripture says he never received any of the land, therefore for God to honor His promise to Abraham He must give him the land in the resurrection. The land was promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Paul says that it is this promise that is the believers hope or the "Anchor of the Soul" 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.€ 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:8-29 KJV) Paul uses the phrase, "the blessing of Abraham" this phrase only appears one other place in the Scriptures and it refers to the land, the inheritance promised to Abraham. KJV Genesis 28:1 And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan. 2 Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother. 3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; 4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. (Gen 28:1-4 KJV) Paul said that the "blessing lf Abraham" might come on the Gentiles through faith in Christ. It is this promise that is the final hope of the Christian. The promised land inheritance was made to Abraham and his Seed. The Jews understood that collectively, however, Paul points out that God did not mean seed and of many (plural) seeds but rather He meant it singularly as of one, He meant Christ. Paul goes on to say that those who have been baptized are Abraham's seed and heir according to the promise. That is the land promise. So you see, the OT is absolutely essential to our understanding of the hope in the NT. Without the OT we would have no understanding of what was promising.

Hi Tony, The we in verse 11 have already obtained an inheritance, the other group had not. The other had only received the down payment on a future inheritance. Paul uses the past tense regarding the inheritance of the first group. 7 And Moses called unto Joshua, and said unto him in the sight of all Israel, Be strong and of a good courage: for thou must go with this people unto the land which the LORD hath sworn unto their fathers to give them; and thou shalt cause them to inherit it. (Deu 31:7 KJV) This is Israel, the Jews. This is what Paul is referring to in verse 11. The Gentiles had not received and inheritance from God. Verse 11 cannot be speaking of the Gentiles. Therefore, the we, us, our, group cannot be the Gentile Ephesians. Also as I pointed out there's no reason for Paul to pray that God would give them something it he just said God gave it to them. As I also pointed out this is not a new understanding, it s a very old one. Actually, it is the oldest understanding that we have written on the passage. It predates all of these modern commentaries.

Hi, A close examination of these two passages will reveal that Paul is referring to Israel in these passages. In the Ephesians passage Paul is praising God for what He's done for Israel. In Romans 9 he's describing how God has chosen certain individuals from the seed of Abraham to use to fulfill His promises to Abraham. Hi butch, Although verse eleven in Eph chapter one would be considered to be about the predestined part of Israel according to the flesh and verse 12 the gentiles, verses one through ten would be all: both jew and gentile. Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, As far as those verses in Romans: I think that is easy to show. Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. God bless, Tony Hi Tony, If you look at Ephesians 1 Paul is drawing a distinction. Verses 3-12 are one long sentence known as a Hebraism. Paul is giving praise to God for the things He's done for Israel. If you look at those verses you'll see Paul uses first person personal plural pronouns. He switches to second person plural pronouns in verse 13. He's contrasting two groups, us, we, our, with you and your. He says to his readers 'and you, after you believed. This is a different group than the one that Paul referred to as we, us, our. Of the first group ion which he includes himself he says 'we who before hoped in the Christ'. It was the Jews who previously hoped in the Christ, not Christians. Regarding Romans 9, yet Paul does mention the Gentiles. However, that is not what he is addressing. In chapter 2 verse 17 Paul turns his attention to the Jews. He continues this dialogue through chapter 11 to verse 13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles. In chapter 9 he is explaining what he said in the end of chapter 8, how God had predestined, called, justified, and glorified, those who love him (in this instance the OT saints). He begins talking about the Israelites and says that it was because of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) that Christ came in the flesh. He continues on about how God chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob yet reject Ishmael and Esau. The showing mercy and hardening is not a reference to salvation but rather to God's choosing who He will use to fulfill His promises to Abraham. Hi butch, I checked it out and what I saw was one group’s contention. Would you care to share your source because as far as I can see it is a pretty limited opinion. Btw, I am sticking with my first explanation. 3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: J.F.B. Notes for Verse 3 Verse 3. The doxologies in almost all the Epistles imply the real sense of grace experienced by the writers and their readers (1Pe 1:3). Eph 1:3-14 sets forth summarily the Gospel of the grace of God: the FATHER'S work of love, Eph 1:3 (choosing us to holiness, Eph 1:4; to sonship, Eph 1:5; to acceptance, Eph 1:6): the SON'S, Eph 1:7 (redemption, Eph 1:7; knowledge of the mystery of His will, Eph 1:9; an inheritance, Eph 1:11); the HOLY SPIRIT'S, Eph 1:13 (sealing, Eph 1:13; giving an earnest of the inheritance, Eph 1:14). the God and Father of . . . Christ -- and so the God and Father of us who are in Him (John 20:17). God is "the God" of the man Jesus, and "the Father" of the Divine Word. The Greek is, "Blessed us," not "hath blessed us"; referring to the past original counsel of God. As in creation (Ge 1:22) so in redemption (Ge 12:3 Mt 5:3-11 Mt 25:34) God "blesses" His children; and that not in mere words, but in acts. us -- all Christians. —Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary We can work on Romans after Ephesians. God bless, Tony Hi Tony, I can share sources but it's the grammar of the passage that is the strength. Paul is using first and second person pronouns which indicates two groups. I know there are not many who espouse this idea, however, it is what the grammar requires. There is also other internal evidence that supports the idea that Paul is speaking of the Jews here. He says we have obtained an inheritance, that's past tense. He then tells the other group that they have received a down payment on their inheritance. The OT tells us that the Jews did receive an inheritance in the land. Additionally, Paul says, 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (Eph 1:9 KJV) It was to the Jews that God had made know his will. However, Paul says God had known to them (the, we, us, our, group) the mystery of His will. Then just a few sentences later says he's praying that God would do the same for the other group (the you, your group). 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: (Eph 1:13-21 KJV) It makes no sense for Paul to be praying that God would give them understanding if he had just said that God had made known to them the mystery of His will. If they already had it there is no reason for Paul to be praying for God to give it to them. Also, notice that Paul says, 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, He says that they make know the glory of his inheritance in the saints. In Chapter 2 Paul makes a distinction between the Jew and the Gentile telling the Gentiles that through Christ they have been made fellow citizens with the saints. In this context Paul is referring to the Jews when he calls them saints. 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (Eph 2:11-19 KJV) The contrast here is the Jews and the Gentiles. The "you" is the Gentiles and they have been made fellow citizens with the saints, the Jews. Also this is the understanding of Tertullian an early Christian writer, so it's not something new, it's a very old and I believe original understanding of the passage. Tertullian Against Marcion Book 5 Chapter 17 But then how can opposites be gathered together into him by whom they are in short destroyed? Again, what Christ do the following words announce, when the apostle says: “That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ? ” Now who could have first trusted—i.e. previously trusted —in God, before His advent, except the Jews to whom Christ was previously announced, from the beginning? He who was thus foretold, was also foretrusted. Hence the apostle refers the statement to himself, that is, to the Jews, in order that he may draw a distinction with respect to the Gentiles, (when he goes on to say: ) “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel (of your salvation); in whom ye believed, and were sealed with His Holy Spirit of promise.” Of what promise? That which was made through Joel: “In the last days will I pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh,” that is, on all nations. Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325. Here is a link that has a verse by verse breakdown of the passage. http://pfrs.org/commentary/Eph_1_3.pdf There is also and audio on this passage if you are interested.

No, the foundation of the Christian faith is in the OT. The entire Bible is the working out of the promises that God made to Abraham. OT = the law NT = the faith Actually, the Law was given to the Jews. Abraham was in the OT and not under the Law. Additionally, the OT is as much about faith as the NT. However, as I pointed out the Christian hope is based on the promises God made to Abraham. Without the OT there are no promises to fulfill, thus there would be no NT.

Hi, A close examination of these two passages will reveal that Paul is referring to Israel in these passages. In the Ephesians passage Paul is praising God for what He's done for Israel. In Romans 9 he's describing how God has chosen certain individuals from the seed of Abraham to use to fulfill His promises to Abraham. Hi butch, Although verse eleven in Eph chapter one would be considered to be about the predestined part of Israel according to the flesh and verse 12 the gentiles, verses one through ten would be all: both jew and gentile. Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, As far as those verses in Romans: I think that is easy to show. Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. God bless, Tony Hi Tony, If you look at Ephesians 1 Paul is drawing a distinction. Verses 3-12 are one long sentence known as a Hebraism. Paul is giving praise to God for the things He's done for Israel. If you look at those verses you'll see Paul uses first person personal plural pronouns. He switches to second person plural pronouns in verse 13. He's contrasting two groups, us, we, our, with you and your. He says to his readers 'and you, after you believed. This is a different group than the one that Paul referred to as we, us, our. Of the first group ion which he includes himself he says 'we who before hoped in the Christ'. It was the Jews who previously hoped in the Christ, not Christians. Regarding Romans 9, yet Paul does mention the Gentiles. However, that is not what he is addressing. In chapter 2 verse 17 Paul turns his attention to the Jews. He continues this dialogue through chapter 11 to verse 13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles. In chapter 9 he is explaining what he said in the end of chapter 8, how God had predestined, called, justified, and glorified, those who love him (in this instance the OT saints). He begins talking about the Israelites and says that it was because of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) that Christ came in the flesh. He continues on about how God chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob yet reject Ishmael and Esau. The showing mercy and hardening is not a reference to salvation but rather to God's choosing who He will use to fulfill His promises to Abraham.

I believe both, it's a matter of reconciling the two.

Hi, A close examination of these two passages will reveal that Paul is referring to Israel in these passages. In the Ephesians passage Paul is praising God for what He's done for Israel. In Romans 9 he's describing how God has chosen certain individuals from the seed of Abraham to use to fulfill His promises to Abraham.

No, the foundation of the Christian faith is in the OT. The entire Bible is the working out of the promises that God made to Abraham.

I think it is Important. The Scriptures clearly state that the Israelites were not to worship God the same way the pagans worshipped their gods. It seems only logical that that would also apply to Christians. The pagans did worship with tree, lights, etc. Additionally, the feast days a very important. Jesus was killed on the Passover, raised on the day of first fruits, born on Rosh Hashanah, will return on Yom Kippor, and the first feat that will be celebrated in the kingdom is the feast of tabernacles. If you look a Revelation it ends with the Tabernacle of God coming down to live with men. It seems fitting that the first feast would be the Feast of Tabernacles If pagans did celebrate with trees, they were using Gods creation to honor a pagan god. Nothing wrong with using Gods creation, trees, as a decoration on a holiday to honor God. The Israelites also worshipped with lights, as commanded by God, so there is nothing inherently pagan about lights either. Jesus died on Passover, was raised on the first fruits wave offering, and the Holy Spirit was sent on the feast of first fruits. There is no proof that Jesus was born on Rosh Hashanah, and it is more likely wrong. I disagree with His return on Yom Kippur. You are saying the Feast of Tabernacles is the first feast celebrated, but feasts are celebrations in memory of what God did. What will God do in relationship to the Feast of Tabernacles? God specifically told the Israelites that they were not to worship Him as the pagans do. KJV Deuteronomy 12:1 These are the statutes and judgments, which ye shall observe to do in the land, which the LORD God of thy fathers giveth thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth. 2 Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: 3 And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. 4Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God. 5 But unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come: (Deu 12:1-5 KJV) 30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. (Deu 12:30-31 KJV) Regarding the feast days the Holy Spirit was sent on Pentecost. There is proof that Jesus was born on Rosh Hashanah. John give His birth in the Revelation, KJV Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. (Rev 12:1-5 KJV) This event happened on Rosh Hashanah in 3 B.C. I believe it was Sept 12. Normally on Rosh Hashanah there are 10 stars in the crown of the woman virgo, however, that particular year Mercury and Venus also appeared in the crown making 12. Also the hydra could be seen at this time. Likewise, Paul tells us that Christ will return on Yom Kippur. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (1Co 15:51-55 KJV) The last trumpet sounds on Yom Kippur in the year of Jubilee. The Israelites were told to keep an agricultural cycle. They were to work the land for 6 year and let it rest the seventh. The seventh was to be a Sabbath for the land. They were to do this for 7 cycle which would be 49 years. In the fiftieth year they were to observe the Jubilee year and the cycle would begin again. In the seven cycles the trumpet was blown on Rosh Hashanah but not on Yom Kippur, however, on the Jubilee year the trumpet was blown on Yom Kippur and it was the last trumpet in the cycle.

The danger I see in holding a pre-tribulation rapture is that one may not prepare for the tribulation if they don't expect to be here. If that person suddenly realizes they are going to go through it it could be rather rough. The Scriptures tell us that God will prepare places for His people just like He did for the Israelites when Hew brought judgment on Egypt. However, if one is expecting to taken away they may not be prepared to get to or even know about these places. I believe the Tribulation is not that far off and would exhort everyone to prepare.

That's because the gospel "we all know now" has been corrupted over the years by men. Paul taught the very same gospel as the 12. His references to "my Gospel" are a reference to the Gopsel of Luke. If you look at Paul's writings you'll find that he quotes some things that are only found in Lukes Gospel.

I think it is Important. The Scriptures clearly state that the Israelites were not to worship God the same way the pagans worshipped their gods. It seems only logical that that would also apply to Christians. The pagans did worship with tree, lights, etc. Additionally, the feast days a very important. Jesus was killed on the Passover, raised on the day of first fruits, born on Rosh Hashanah, will return on Yom Kippor, and the first feat that will be celebrated in the kingdom is the feast of tabernacles. If you look a Revelation it ends with the Tabernacle of God coming down to live with men. It seems fitting that the first feast would be the Feast of Tabernacles

My personal conviction is this: The Feast celebrate the plan of God in a way our "Christian" holidays never do. The Passover week celebration is something you partake of, something you proclaim with actions. What do our Maundy Thursday and Good Friday and Easter Sunrise church services do? Sing songs, listen to sermons, maybe have an artistic presentation...basically, it's just another church service. What does Easter do? OK, coloring eggs and an Easter egg hunt is fun, but how does this celebrate and remember Jesus' victory over death and the grave? Rosh Hoshana through Yom Kippur through the Feast of Tabernacles likewise acts out the preparation and cleansing of ourselves to appear before God and the final celebration of our uniting with the Lord. When Jesus proclaimed, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' " (John 7:37-38), that was during the water pouring ceremony at the Feast of Tabernacles (a ceremony which occured during "the last day, the great day of the feast" as it mentions in vs. 37) - the high priest would pour water that had been drawn from the living (running) water that flowed at the base of the Temple Mount. We just don't get these kinds of experiences our chocolate bunnies and Christmas trees. I agree, Ezekiel also speaks of the water flowing from the temple.