Spock

But you said Jesus returns to earth (2nd time) to pick up another batch. He didn’t say that. He said when Jesus returns a second time, he is bringing all the people he picked up the first time back with him.

Great thread and great OP Dennis. I expect nothing less from you though. i too am looking for the Ezekiel War to occur maybe next up. I’m not really looking for Psalm 83 war because a part of me thinks maybe this war has already happened in 1967 or Yom Kippur War of 1973 I believe. nevertheless, you make a good point to show how Israel could possibly drop her guard. Let me throw this out there for conversation to answer the question, what would it take to get the Ezekiel 38/39 nations to attack Israel? I could see two other possible answers: 1. When God is ready! It says in Ezekiel 38 that God hooks them into the land. I will turn you about and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in full armor, a great host, all of them with buckler and shield, wielding swords. You will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 17 ¶ “Thus says the Lord GOD: Are you he of whom I spoke in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel, who in those days prophesied for years that I would bring you against them? 2. I think it is also possible the rapture could occur first which takes out the USA from the equation protecting Israel, and emboldens these nations, especially Russia to go seize their goods that you mentioned. that’s all for now, gotta run to do some grocery shopping, spock

He didn’t say that Luigi. Please reread his post...slower this time. (Yes, I’m a retired teacher.) spock

I don’t have an answer but I hope this is teaching you to highlight your post and save before you hit submit. I would hate to see you lose all that work and effort.

Although some here, Charlie, Diaste, and Retro to name a few, believe the 70 weeks have run their course, I’ve never thrown my hat in that arena. However, I’m still waiting for someone, probably a pre tribber, to show me why the CHURCH can’t be in this final week. I’m a bit surprised not to see my pre trib brothers like iamlamad, RevMan, Dennis, muffett (sister), et el, rising up to answer my question. Hopefully someone will.....it’s not like I’m looking for a debate either.....I just want this issue fully resolved in my thinking. I need to see what they base their thinking on (church can’t be in Daniel’s week, only for Jews). Lastly, if you are one who in particular doesn’t believe the 70th week has played out and agree that it is not necessary or mandatory for Jews and The church to be separated during Daniels 70th week, please state such. That helps too. spock

This one is not easy for me at all but I do want to chime in to show I’ve read this thread. ALL I have to offer is...6 is the number for MAN. This convinces me the Antichrist will be a man before he becomes THE BEAST. Sorry but that’s all I got....I know not much.

This question is for all my pre trib friends. I really want to believe in the pre trib doctrine, but I need a few questions answered. This is a big one. I hear so many pre tribbers say Daniels 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9 is only meant for Israel and Daniel’s people (Jews). And they rightfully cite Daniel 9:24, which says....“Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression and to put an end totsin,...” Okay, I get that, I really do.....but, where does it say in the Word that the Church can’t also be involved in even a part of this 490 years? Jew and Gentile together is not uncommon, is it? Obviously, the only chance they can be intermingled with Jews is in the last week, week 70, seeing that week 69 ended at probably Jesus’ baptism (when he was anointed). Pre tribbers say the rapture has to occur BEFORE the week begins......but all I want is some solid confirmation not from what you think but from what is written. Show me why this is so! Consider this...do you believe the New Covenant was written for the Church? Most do believe such to be so, but look at what Jeremiah says in Jeremiah 31....“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD:” So, even though Jeremiah said the New Covenant was for Israel, many in the church believe it is also for them. So why can’t the Church also be present And intermingled with Jews in at least some part of the first half of Daniel’s 70th week... Before the Great Tribulation begins? Also, most agree we are presently in the CHURCH AGE from the time Christ ascended till now, right? But the last time I looked out my window or drive down the street, I see plenty of Jews everywhere. Jew+Gentile intermingling during the Church Age. So again, why can’t Jew +Gentile intermingle a little in Daniel’s 70th week? If you believe there are other reasons the church can’t be in the first half of the week, for now, please disregard these other reasons because i just want to know, do you believe the church can’t be in any part of Daniels week because it is only for Israel and Jews, and not the church....and on what basis do you hold this belief? thanks for replying. I’m watching and excited to learn, spock

I suppose you could fantasize what truth one wants to believe but it is not logical for me to think Jesus pulled Paul aside in 35 AD to tell him about these 7 trumpets john is going to write about in 60 years. No, I think Jesus had a lot more important things to discuss with him, including revealing the mystery of the rapture. If you believe that, did Jesus or God the father ever tell any OT prophet about the Church or the Rapture? If not, why not? I believe there is a time and place to tell all.....John was the chosen one to write Revelation, not Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, and not Paul. . Paul was not given all the truth as well, but he was certainly given enough. Im very serious when I say....it makes more sense to associate the “last Trump” with Donald Trump than to associate the “last Trump” with the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Please use common sense and LOGIC HERE. And it’s okay to admit you were wrong in your thinking....I humble myself like that all the time. We are all still learning....no one has received it all yet, no one.

Thank you, thank you, and thank you for honoring me as well as missing me. I apologize for letting the natives run wild here in my absence. I will try to do better to keep things balanced here by being around a bit more. your humble servant, spock

Shilohsfoal, I’m honored by your confidence and wisdom you displayed in this post. I have dubbed it “Best post of the day“....and I greatly rewarded you for such. in all humility, spock

Okay, I think I get it now....you believe Daniels 70th week began at 66 AD-73 AD with the destruction of the temple and city in 70 AD as the mid point. I can’t buy this interpretation, but thanks for explaining this.

So far imo this post is the best because it is a game changer. You make perfect sense in saying ....how could the last trump cited by Paul be the same as the 7th trumpet of Revelation when Revelation was written some 40 years later? How could Paul’s Corinthian audience have known this? They couldn’t. COMMON SENSE FELLOWS....please don’t let your agenda and biases remove your common sense. Therefore, by the power vested in me I proclaim......from here on going forward No one shall ever associate Paul’s last Trump with the 7th trumpet of Revelation. So let it be written, so let it be done! Ambassador Spock

Greetings my Pre Wrath brothers, While I can’t say I fully adhere to this theory, I do see a lot of good that has come from it and I understand the questioning of the Pre trib theory needed to be done. I happen to think both theories (and the Post Trib theory) have faults, but then again, who am I? I’m not Solomon either. Okay, let me read through this entire thread to see what I can glean that I already don’t know. By the way, I’ve read much of the Pre Weath literature....Van Kampen, Rosenthal, and Kuschner, so,it’s not like I’m ignorant of the theory. spock

Spocks musings.... rev 12:5: I see the rapture here ( man child=church) harpazo=caught up....snatched.....sounds like a rapture. Meanwhile..... Rev 12:v6...woman =remnant Israel fleeing to Petra

Greetings again my brother Dennis, Firstly, I am rooting for your rapture belief (pre 70th week) to be the winner. secondly, I hope the 12 apostles are half of the 24 elders....it seems like they deserve such recognition. Who are your Israeli 12 tribes elders? I know God wS pretty upset with a couple of these guys. thirdly, you said no angel has ever worn a crown....so, who is this in Rev 14 that I highlighted? 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped. 17 ¶ Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. i guess locusts coming out of the abyss with crowns doesn’t count.....Rev 9:7 fourthly, honestly brother, I just see some “problems” with everyone’s theories....pre 70th week, pre wrath, and post trib......they all have holes if you ask me. I have yet to align myself wholly with any of them. I see a lot of good points in pre 70th week rapture doctrine, but I don’t have the answers to some “problems” regarding this doctrine. Sigh.....I just have to keep studying and praying for wisdom.....(keeps me humble is a good thing....) spock

Good morning Moby, just want you to know I’ve been reading your blog, the one you cited for me to look at, all morning. Very well written, easy to follow. Now I’m not going to say I agree with all of it because I don’t, but I rarely these days debate the timing of the rapture with people because it is too emotional and I believe more harm results than good, so I really don’t want to head down that path. HOWEVER, the following passage surprised me. If interested, please explain your thinking as to how you came up with the identity of the “woman”... This wrath is God’s judgment upon the wicked who He uses to tribulate the saints to drive them out of the world just as the Jews fled Egypt into their wilderness in type. Many Christians will begin to flee into their wilderness during the first half of the tribulation of 1260 days: Revelation 12:6 And the woman(church) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days. Thanks, spock

Good question....I have no idea. I’ve read 10 different articles or books with different theories. Honestly, none has slapped me in the face saying.... BELIEVE ME! IM listening if you want to share your thinking. Thanks.

Greetings brother Moby, Great thread prompt....never bored thinking about this. firstly, I don’t believe you could find in scripture a 7 year tribulation period. All I see is 1260 days, 42 months, “time, times and a half a time”....which all equal 3.5 years. if you do find it, please show me where? Secondly, I don’t believe it is in the Bible that the church cannot be in Daniel’s 70th week. I know Daniel says the 70 weeks prophecy is for Israel but it doesn’t say the church can’t also be in it for some part. If the word does say both are mutually exclusive from each other, please show me where it says that. So, to go along with this thought, I don’t see where in the Bible it says the church can’t be here to see some covenant being confirmed, which according to Daniel begins the 70th week. (I know some believe Jesus began this 70th week by confirming the new covenant, and I respect your beliefs. That is just not mine....at this point.) thirdly, I believe the Bible does say church age believers will be kept from His wrath. So when does His wrath begin? Again I believe the Bible is also very clear....right after the 6th seal. See Rev 6:12-17. This tells me the church will not experience the trumpets and bowl judgments. fourthly, so when do the trumpets begin? I’m not sure....honestly I don’t know if they precede the abomination of desolation or are subsequent to the abomination or maybe even some are released before the abomination (1-4) and some after (5-7). For example, the first 4 trumpets could be released before the abomination since they all seem to go together, having great effect on the Earth. The last 3 are called the 3 woes and it’s possible they could be released after the abomination of desolation. These last 3 imo are much scarier in that they affect humans, not just the earth, sea, or rivers (although obviously this is scary too). I think it could be possible these can play out after the abomination. fifthly, I do believe the great multitude of Rev 7:9-17 represent the raptured church, and very conveniently show up right after.....drum roll please......the 6th seal, and before......drum roll please......any trumpets are released. sixthly, I’m still researching unresolved issues I have so my study is incomplete at this time. I also seem to evolve in my thinking as I see things differently as time progresses and I study more things. What I’m saying simply is, my thinking is not etched in stone...still reading with an open mind, always watching, always reading other thoughts and weighing their words, always reading the Word by itself as well, and always hopeful that the spirit within me illuminates my thinking. so, I hope this answers your question... spock ps....oh, you should know this too...I also believe seals 1-5 were opened when Christ ascended to heaven and have been in play for 2000 years. Therefore, I’m thinking the 6th seal is the next event from Revelation. This is not to say some other event can’t precede it....like the Gog War from Ezekiel 38/39.

Wow, thanks for watching my back against big bad iamlamad......you made a great rebuttal! ?? one more point to iamlamad....you don’t really believe anything coming out of the seals, trumpets, or bowls could be good, do you? I don’t care how many times white is used in a positive manner.....those judgments are not good! Better go back and rethink this.

You are not getting it brother.....white does represent something good...Christianity....but unfortunately, it is being used for much harm (domination).

Not strange to me...In fact, it makes a lot of sense.

Greetings To a fellow brother and sister in the Lord who also keeps the Sabbath Day Holy.....Shabbat Shalom! This is very personal and not meant for me to receive praise from anyone, but rather merely to testify as to what keeping the Sabbath Day has done for us (wife included). As a testimony to God’s grace and blessing....our lives did make a very positive change when we committed to abiding by the 4th commandment about 15 years ago. Our favorite hour of the week is now Friday night around 8:00 pm to 9:00/30. This is when we usher in Shabbat by worshipping and praising God through music. Joshua Aaron, Paul Wilbur, other Messianic Praise music, and various other musicians who inspire worship lead us into worship every Friday night. Saturday morning is worship through the word and prayer. Afternoon is relaxed and unstructured, personal reading and study online messages, family time..........but absolutely no work! since we made this commitment God has richly blessed us with powerful and often sudden answers to prayer and a deeper sense of his abiding love. We believe that “day off“ from work and other worldly pursuits recharges our battery, renews our mind from worldly matters, and draws us closer to Him. In addition, better prepares us for what is in store for us Sunday- Friday. honestly, I don’t know how much God appreciates Seeing us have “our day off” to be on His Sabbath, but I Definitely know how much my wife and I have appreciated and benefited from the change to Saturday as the day to be kept holy. thanks for listening, spock (and Mrs spock)

I have some thoughts that I have borrowed from David Lowe in his book, Earthquake Resurrection. In this book, he goes to show how the first five seals have been released when Jesus ascended to heaven and have been in play for the past 2000 years. He supported his thinking very well so I think it is something to at least consider. Anyhow, the first rider on the white horse represents a spirit of religious domination (going out to conquer) using religion to dominate and brainwash the masses. Any religion, organization, hierarchy, or denomination that uses the name of Jesus , Christianity, or the gospel to force, coerce, or brainwash its adherents is being led by the spirit of religious domination symbolized within the first seal. The most powerful example in history is the RCC church through the papal system. Consider Constantine compromises made in 4th century, Crusades in 10th and 11th, Many inquisitions, Dark ages, Persecutions against Protestant Reformation in 16-17th centuries, I think you get the picture of what this domination can look like. But not just limited to the RCC......some Protestant churches too. I will stop there. Something to ponder, wouldn’t you say?

Hmmmm, this sounds like something the two Beasts of Rev 13 will do when they rise up.....change the laws.......hmmmm.

Shabbat Shalom, brother. I edited my previous post so go check it out.