Shar

John Fair enough. Can you provide any biblical references outside of Genesis that tell us that there was a pre-adamite earth that was judged by God and destroyed? Can you also provide the verses that indicate that it was only angels and not men who were inhabiting this pre-adamite earth? Shiloh, I have to do this in several posts. Each is a different topic. I cannot show every verse, it would take far too long, but some to think upon.This first post are some verses to show the creation of the stars,heavens and angels were before the creation of the earth. My next post will give the possible social system that existed on earth before Adam. And the last will be the resulting judgment from G-d. I will not be able to do the last two posts until this weekend. Stay tuned. Should get post One to you tomorrow.

Fair enough. Can you provide any biblical references outside of Genesis that tell us that there was a pre-adamite earth that was judged by God and destroyed? Can you also provide the verses that indicate that it was only angels and not men who were inhabiting this pre-adamite earth? Shiloh, I have to do this in several posts. Each is a different topic. I cannot show every verse, it would take far too long, but some to think upon.This first post are some verses to show the creation of the stars,heavens and angels were before the creation of the earth. My next post will give the possible social system that existed on earth before Adam. And the last will be the resulting judgment from G-d. I will not be able to do the last two posts until this weekend. Stay tuned.

Fair enough. Can you provide any biblical references outside of Genesis that tell us that there was a pre-adamite earth that was judged by God and destroyed? Can you also provide the verses that indicate that it was only angels and not men who were inhabiting this pre-adamite earth? I will get working on it. Got to find some archived notes.

You are leaving out one very important tenet of the Gap Theory and that is there was a pre-adamite race of human beings, corrupted by the fallen angels. That part keeps getting left out. Actually, I did not leave it out. See reference "or if other beings existed". I think the reason that some proponents of the Gap Theory omit that part of the theory is that it forces them to confront the theological problems of why God didn't provide a plan of redemption for those human beings, and it also means that sin existed on the earth prior to Adam, which also contradicts the Bible's claim that sin didn't exist in the earth prior to Adam's fall. G-d did not provide a plan of redemption for angels, nothing would require Him to provide one for beings "not created in His image". The plan of redemption is for beings created in His image - Man. What specific verse are you referring to that sin did not exist on Earth before Adam's fall? If it is the NT verse that sin came thru one man to all mankind, that is specific to man. Not to any other possible being, not created in G-d image. The Bible knows of no other human beings prior to Adam. Many verses to infer differently.

Some OEC positions believe that Adam was not the first being to appear on the Earth. Some believe, through various verses in the Old Testament that Lucifer was governing in the Garden of Eden before he led an angelic rebellion. As a result of the angels sinning, G-d judged the Earth. There was no redemption plan for the angels, or if other beings existed, they too were not created in the image of G-d. Therefore, because of the judgment, death and decay did exist before. They believe the six days of creation are G-d calling forth what already existed, then commencing with the act of creating animals and man, beginning with Day 5, for those creatures who now had the "breath of life" in them.

Spock. You make me laugh.

That is totally okay, shar. I was not and am not offended at you. I hope i didn't come off as "barking" at you. LOL. I really do enjoy talking to you. So you have nothing to worry about. It happens on the boards when we are posting and people get confused and think they are responding to someone else. I have done it, myself. No hard feelings, I promise. Thank you, Shiloh. I really do love you. The forum is sometimes boring when you are not on. Thanks for understanding and may G-d richly bless you!

"Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew." But the Author was Jesus Christ. I've "heard" that there is some proof that it was given to Moses 1 letter @ a time...can't support that statement. ..and he used Moses, the Prophets, the Apostles and other Jews to put it in pen. Jesus and Paul attest to Moses and what He said. Ro. 10:5 "Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew. You have to view it from a Jewish perspective or you will lose its intent and full meaning." I may be misguided but I thought he wrote it to me. I'm getting a feeling here that I either have to be a Jew or a Hebrew Scholar to be able to discern what the LORD is trying to say or distill the TRUE meaning....is that a fair assessment or am I misunderstanding the messages? Jews were charged to bring the ways and word of G-d to the nations and teach them about the one true G-d of Israel. The Bible is for all of mankind. The Jews did not fully obey their charge to the nations. You do not need to be a Jew or Hebrew scholar, but you cannot wipe out the Jewishness of the Bible or Jesus and expect to come to a clear understanding of the word. "The church has misinterpreted some of Jesus' parables" What "church" might that be? In some churches, when teaching some parables, because they do not understand some of the Jewish customs of the times, have made efforts to completely interpret it on what they think it is saying. For ex. Mt 5:22. The eye is good, eye is bad referenced here is still talking about money. Some want to say that it has to do with what you are looking at, instead. The whole parable has to do with money. The good eye in the Jewish culture meant some one who was generous and giving. The bad eye was someone who was closed-fist and not generous. That is why Jesus said you cannot serve both G-d and money. "Once you do, however, they burst open with meaning." I would have to agree with you.... in some instances. Perhaps someone can speak to this. "G-d states there are mysteries here. You have to do a little detective work." 100% agree..... (Proverbs 25:2) "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." One last issue....I've seen alot of posts in the forum with "G-d". Is it that difficult to add the "O" and spell it "GOD" or I am "out of the loop" and not following proper etiquette? I deeply apologize to you. I read your post , but got confused that it was from Shiloh. I was a little sensitive to the comment about being difficult to add "O" to G-d and thought he was on my case again. The last bit was not meant for you and obviously not for Shiloh either since he did not post it. I hope you accept my apology. Please feel free to ask me anything. I promised I will read it more carefully and not let myself get confused by being distracted by other activities when posting. Sorry No worries. Confusing me with Shiloh is a compliment of the Highest Order in my eyes You are soooo sweet. Yes, Shiloh has some valuable insight. Thanks again my brother. G-d Bless

"Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew." But the Author was Jesus Christ. I've "heard" that there is some proof that it was given to Moses 1 letter @ a time...can't support that statement. ..and he used Moses, the Prophets, the Apostles and other Jews to put it in pen. Jesus and Paul attest to Moses and what He said. Ro. 10:5 "Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew. You have to view it from a Jewish perspective or you will lose its intent and full meaning." I may be misguided but I thought he wrote it to me. I'm getting a feeling here that I either have to be a Jew or a Hebrew Scholar to be able to discern what the LORD is trying to say or distill the TRUE meaning....is that a fair assessment or am I misunderstanding the messages? Jews were charged to bring the ways and word of G-d to the nations and teach them about the one true G-d of Israel. The Bible is for all of mankind. The Jews did not fully obey their charge to the nations. You do not need to be a Jew or Hebrew scholar, but you cannot wipe out the Jewishness of the Bible or Jesus and expect to come to a clear understanding of the word. "The church has misinterpreted some of Jesus' parables" What "church" might that be? In some churches, when teaching some parables, because they do not understand some of the Jewish customs of the times, have made efforts to completely interpret it on what they think it is saying. For ex. Mt 5:22. The eye is good, eye is bad referenced here is still talking about money. Some want to say that it has to do with what you are looking at, instead. The whole parable has to do with money. The good eye in the Jewish culture meant some one who was generous and giving. The bad eye was someone who was closed-fist and not generous. That is why Jesus said you cannot serve both G-d and money. "Once you do, however, they burst open with meaning." I would have to agree with you.... in some instances. Perhaps someone can speak to this. "G-d states there are mysteries here. You have to do a little detective work." 100% agree..... (Proverbs 25:2) "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." One last issue....I've seen alot of posts in the forum with "G-d". Is it that difficult to add the "O" and spell it "GOD" or I am "out of the loop" and not following proper etiquette? I deeply apologize to you. I read your post , but got confused that it was from Shiloh. I was a little sensitive to the comment about being difficult to add "O" to G-d and thought he was on my case again. The last bit was not meant for you and obviously not for Shiloh either since he did not post it. I hope you accept my apology. Please feel free to ask me anything. I promised I will read it more carefully and not let myself get confused by being distracted by other activities when posting. Sorry

Does this include having to believe that vs 1 was a part of Day 1? That in the first 24-hour time period God creates the entire universe, the earth, waters, and then light? Does this include having to believe that days were marked off as 24 hours before the creation of the sun? Does this include having to believe that evenings and mornings likewise existed before the creation of the sun? 1. Actually day 1 only includes the creation of light and the separation of light and darkness. 2. I dont know what is hard to accept about that given that this would not be a problem for an all-knowing God. Furthermore, the sun is the catalyist for photosynthesis yet there was vegitation prior to the creation of the sun. In the OEC view, photosynthesis might have been happening for billions of years without the aid of the sun. So I don't see the problem with believing that an all-knowing God can mark off 24 hours without the aid of the sun. 3. What does the text say? Why add such modifers to the text if 24 hour days were not intended? But If I were obsessed with OEC view of billions of years that would not trump the spiritual message??? I don't get where this can be called an "obsession." I am simply committed to the truth of what the text says. I don't see where holding to the 6 24 hour day trumps the spiritual message. There are many who would not be able to answer those questions not because those texts don't speak to doctrinal issues, but because they have never been trained to see the doctrines in Genesis. They have been trained to see it all as a bunch of stories that have little to no relevance to them and their lives. You will have to ask them, because that isn't what I am trying to do. Shiloh, I deeply apologize to you. I got off task when I was responding to a post. It was Enoch I was responding to. I absent-mindedly wrote Shiloh, but meant to write Enoch. Please forgive this oversight. My posting was not meant for you. You had a right to bark back at me for that. I hope you know it was not meant for you.

"Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew." But the Author was Jesus Christ. I've "heard" that there is some proof that it was given to Moses 1 letter @ a time...can't support that statement. ..and he used Moses, the Prophets, the Apostles and other Jews to put it in pen. Jesus and Paul attest to Moses and what He said. Ro. 10:5 "Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew. You have to view it from a Jewish perspective or you will lose its intent and full meaning." I may be misguided but I thought he wrote it to me. I'm getting a feeling here that I either have to be a Jew or a Hebrew Scholar to be able to discern what the LORD is trying to say or distill the TRUE meaning....is that a fair assessment or am I misunderstanding the messages? Jews were charged to bring the ways and word of G-d to the nations and teach them about the one true G-d of Israel. The Bible is for all of mankind. The Jews did not fully obey their charge to the nations. You do not need to be a Jew or Hebrew scholar, but you cannot wipe out the Jewishness of the Bible or Jesus and expect to come to a clear understanding of the word. "The church has misinterpreted some of Jesus' parables" What "church" might that be? In some churches, when teaching some parables, because they do not understand some of the Jewish customs of the times, have made efforts to completely interpret it on what they think it is saying. For ex. Mt 5:22. The eye is good, eye is bad referenced here is still talking about money. Some want to say that it has to do with what you are looking at, instead. The whole parable has to do with money. The good eye in the Jewish culture meant some one who was generous and giving. The bad eye was someone who was closed-fist and not generous. That is why Jesus said you cannot serve both G-d and money. "Once you do, however, they burst open with meaning." I would have to agree with you.... in some instances. Perhaps someone can speak to this. "G-d states there are mysteries here. You have to do a little detective work." 100% agree..... (Proverbs 25:2) "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." One last issue....I've seen alot of posts in the forum with "G-d". Is it that difficult to add the "O" and spell it "GOD" or I am "out of the loop" and not following proper etiquette?

"Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew." But the Author was Jesus Christ. I've "heard" that there is some proof that it was given to Moses 1 letter @ a time...can't support that statement. "Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew. You have to view it from a Jewish perspective or you will lose its intent and full meaning." I may be misguided but I thought he wrote it to me. I'm getting a feeling here that I either have to be a Jew or a Hebrew Scholar to be able to discern what the LORD is trying to say or distill the TRUE meaning....is that a fair assessment or am I misunderstanding the messages? "The church has misinterpreted some of Jesus' parables" What "church" might that be? "Once you do, however, they burst open with meaning." I would have to agree with you.... in some instances. Perhaps someone can speak to this. "G-d states there are mysteries here. You have to do a little detective work." 100% agree..... (Proverbs 25:2) "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." One last issue....I've seen alot of posts in the forum with "G-d". Is it that difficult to add the "O" and spell it "GOD" or I am "out of the loop" and not following proper etiquette? Writing G-d instead of the way you write it stems from the Jewish perspective that G-d's name is most holy, as G-d states, and must be respected, protected and highly regarded. It is written this way to not write out in entirety and to safeguard not taking His name in vain. You must respect this as an expression for the love of G-d and not as a violation of proper etiquette. Shiloh, you have self-proclaimed yourself a Hebrew scholar, knowledgeable of science, and of great knowledge in Judaism and the Hebrew way - and you did not know this? Well, it now looks like you are holding yourself out as an etiquette expert too. Shall we call you Shiloh Vanderbilt or Shiloh Post?

Absolutely love it. Remember the first episode debut in 1966. Spock was my favorite. I even joyed the fan club in 1966 and received autograph pictures of Kirk, Spock and Dr. McCoy. Loved all the original movies that were even-numbered. Did not like the odd-numbered movies. Six in all. Liked the orignal series, Next Generation and Voyager. Did not like Deep Space Nine or Enterprise. Love the Borg the most as an enemy.

You are wrong. The Kaballah was always occultic. They are referencing Hebrew from a mystical and not a textual perspective They are adding mystical interpretations and presenting this mystical meaning as if it is the meaning of the text. That is not the essence of Herew block logic at all If God were trying to fit 15 billion years into six days, He would have said so, but He didn't. One of the aspects of Hebrew block logic is duality. You can have both. For example, election and free-will. Christian churches have divided themselves on this doctrine and swear one over the other. Not so, in Judaism. It can be both!

We have been through the discussion of the word "yom". Even someone without any study in Hebrew, could go to the Strong's Concordance and read that: "yom" (yowm) can literally mean a day, from sundown to sunrise, "or fig. (in space of time defined by an associated term) [often used as an adverb]:-age, required season, forever, process of time, etc." You may think "olam" is a better word, but it was not used, nor was it required to show a period of time. Scholars and translators, tested and recognized as experts in Hebrew, agree that there are two basic views here to creation. (1) a literal 24 hour day, or (2) an indefinite period of time, even millions of years. This will not be settled here. We have to understand, there are believers who can legitimately believe and support either view.

Yes during 1000 year reign of Christ; none when new heaven and new earth commences.

Great question. I think I'm going to research this and get back later on this.

Thank you for your warm welcome. I am also from South Florida. Went to FSU and I miss my beach. I practice Messianic Judaism, where Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus worship together (we refer to His Hebrew name, Yeshua). We hold to the practice of the faith at the time of Jesus, the apostles and the early church, which was a biblical sect of Judaism. In Judaism, the name of G-d is most holy, so we do not write out G-d or L-rd in respect to his holy name. Often, G-d will also be referred to in Judaism, as Ha Shem, which means the name. Thanks for asking.

This really sounds like a duplicate thread. We have already discussed these points in the OEC - New Earth and Old Earth thread. Seems best to keep it on the initial thread and not create a new one.

You cannot take a quote Dr. Schroeder used from someone else who may have practiced a considerably different form of Kabbalah and make it to what we understand about Kabbalah today, which is definitely occultic. Back centuries ago it did not take this form. Besides they are referencing certain points of Hebrew to support a point that was made. The point is not these older sages but the truth of starlight and time. The science behind the Bible. G-d is the greatest scientist. He was the one who put into effect the laws of the universe - starlight, time, speed of light, thermodyanmics, gravity, speed of sound, etc. He does not even compromise His own laws. When we read more about the science of starlight and time we can see that the six day 24-hour creation and the billions of years of age to the universe can both be true. This is the essence of Hebrew block logic. You do not need to mentally check out of science to believe the Bible. Science actually proves the Bible and thereby proves the existence of G-d. Science is all through the Bible. The Hubble telescope and space probes have actually given us a true glimpse of how stars, planets, asteroids, etc. are actually being created and died. G-d is always creating. The laws He set into effect are still at work to this very day. Baruch HaShem!

I would say definitely "yes". Our L-rd is the exact representation of the Father. Our L-rd definitely laughed, cried and experienced all the emotions we have. All thoroughout G-d's word you hear of G-d, the Father, being pleased, having pleasure and things bringing Him joy. Those situations can make you smile. We are His children, and for those of us who have children or grandchildren, aren't there times when they make you laugh? I am sure the L-rd has had his share of laughs from all of us. Wheresoever there is light and joy, there is laughter and you cannot have laughter without a sense of humor.

Ah yes... Gerold Schroeder and his time dilation theory. Has anyone read his book? It really isn't all that impressive when you get into the more detailed information contained in his book. It is really nothing more than a variation on the day-age hypothesis. This is because he is also an evolutionist. The comment he makes about having two clocks, one on earth and one some other place in the universe where 15 billion years on earth is only 6 days in another part of the universe, doesn't really jive with Genesis because God isn't in another part of the universe where time is passing by at such a blinding rate of speed. He is hovering over the earth in Gen. 1:2 Furthermore the narrator perspective of Genesis 1 is that of a person standing on the earth watching everything happening around him. It is not written from the perspective of someone looking at the events of creation from some distant location that would make 15 billion years feel like six days. The narrator is giving his description as if he is experiencing it in real time, six days. Also I would point that Schroeder, in his book and in this article, gives various erroneous and incorrect definitions of Hebrew words. Here is what he says in the article: "Nachmanides says the text uses the words "Vayehi Erev" ― but it doesn't mean "there was evening." He explains that the Hebrew letters Ayin, Resh, Bet ― the root of "erev" ― is chaos. Mixture, disorder. That's why evening is called "erev", because when the sun goes down, vision becomes blurry. The literal meaning is "there was disorder." The Torah's word for "morning" ― "boker" ― is the absolute opposite. When the sun rises, the world becomes "bikoret", orderly, able to be discerned. That's why the sun needn't be mentioned until Day Four. Because from erev to boker is a flow from disorder to order, from chaos to cosmos. That's something any scientist will testify never happens in an unguided system. Order never arises from disorder spontaneously and remains orderly. Order always degrades to chaos unless the environment recognizes the order and locks it in to preserve it. There must be a guide to the system. That's an unequivocal statement." ~Schroeder What needs to be pointed out is that the Rabbis in these commentaries like Nachmanides and RASHI and the RAMBAM are adding the mystical kabalistic meaning to these words. The Rabbis in using PARDES method of hermeneutics view the Scriptures as being layered with meanings. The "meaning" of a text isn't what you read. The meaning of the text is "mystical" and is only discovered by peeling back the many layers and this is done through kabalistic interpretation. So what they consider "literal" means something totally different to the way that we mean literal. He is applying the mystical rendering of Erev when he claims it means chaos. It doesn't mean chaos. It is never used to mean chaos. In Jerusalem and in Jewish communities all over the world, Jewish people will wish someone "erev tov" or "boker tov" which mean "good evening" or "good morning." "Erev" is never used in the sense it is used in Genesis 1 to mean "chaos" in normal usage like what we see in Genesis 1. Nor does boker mean, ":order." That is the application of an irrelevant mystical, dare a I say, occultic approach to the text. Kabbalah is occultic. So This article, despite Spock's claims, is NOT the "other side." Schroeder is not an Hebraist. He is not a scholar of Hebrew. He is a physicist at MIT. So to present an article about time dilation as a refutation of a Hebrew scholar is rather laughable and doesn't really counter anything stated by Wang's article presented in the OP. I would like to return the thread to the topic of my OP. Please continue the discussion of the different branches of science in another thread. Here is my previous response to Schroeder article which someone mistakenly thought was a rebuttal to a scholar of the Hebrew language. You make me laugh, Shiloh. Thanks! You question the Hebrew of a Jewish Ph.D who was raised Jewish and was raised on Hebrew from his childhood. Reads, speaks and writes Hebrew weekly and especially during Shabbat and study of the Torah. I would bet on a true one-on-one with him, he would win the Hebrew contest. Also, the old sages you referenced were not all into Kabbalistic thought. However, the Kabbalah of many centuries ago was not the occultic Kabbalah of today, (like Madonna practices). It was a more spiritual focus, looking for more tangible, spiritual experiences, somewhat like our charismatic movements of today.

Well, not all Jewish scholars or experts in the Law at that time, but a small group that were afraid of losing their political standing and position with Rome were the ones quick to want Him put to death. Many, many Jews and even leaders in the Sanhedrin believed in Jesus. But understand, this was the plan of G-d and Christ was born to be the Passover lamb and the sacrifice for our sins. It had to happen. Only the Jews could prepare and slaughter the Lamb. As far as Jews and scholars today, it is hard for them to see their Messiah, especially when the Church history has basically stripped Jesus of His Jewishness and committed the senseless slaughter of so many Jews throughout the ages in Christ's name. Anti-Semitism exists in many sects of Christianity and calling them Christ-killers, etc. We may be more responsible for their unbelief than we care to admit.

You must believe in the completed work of Christ on the cross and the full forgiveness of your sins. G-d says he throws our sins into His sea of forgetfulness and He remembers them no more. He further states, "as far as the east is from the west so are our sins and He remembers them no more. So, why are you remembering yours? There is only one source this is coming from - Satan. He could not stop your from accepting Christ, but with this he can stop you from being an effective, happy witness. G-d says in Isaiah 43:18 - "Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing." That is where you need to go, with G-d, into the new plans He has for you. Everytime your past comes to mind, remember our L-rd's command here in Isaiah. Don't let Satan cripple you in anyway from having the great, abundant life G-d has in store for you. Put on that whole armour and do the battle. Gird up your mind and move forward. You will make mistakes, you will sometimes fall short, but the L-rd promises that the righteous will be picked up and never forsaken. And, if you do sin, we have an advocate before the Father who says "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteous. Thank you, L-rd. Remember, you now have the resurrected power of Christ. You can do all things through Christ's strength. Here's to your abundant life!

Abel brought the firstborn of his flock. However, Cain brought some fruits of the soil. Remember, sin had now entered the world and fellowship with G-d could not go without the covering of those sins. He. 9:22 reminds us that "without the shedding of blood there is not forgiveness of sins. G-d set up this offering system for various reasons and times. We get a better understanding of these offering through Moses' writings. Because there were fat portions involved in Abel's offering it was probably the required time for the Sin Offering that was for payment of unintentional sins of uncleaness, neglect or thoughtlessness. G-d's response to Cain indicates that "if you do what is right, will you not be accepted"? In other words, Cain probably brought a Grain Offering that was voluntary and was used as an expression of gratitude instead. It was not the time for that offering. He decided to do it his way instead of G-d's way. The true essence of sin. In Hebrews 11, "By faith, Abel offered a better sacrifice". Faith comes by believing. He believed G-d and obeyed Him. The expression of true faith. Remember, they were vegetarians and did not eat meat. Ge.1: 29-30. They did not eat meat until after Noah exited the ark. Ge.9:3. These flocks would be primarily used for the needed sacrifices. Secondarily, they would be used for clothing or milk. G-d's instructions obviously were handed down orally, because we see that the first thing Noah does when he exits the ark is to build an alter and made an offering to the L-rd. I am sure that after being in the ark for over a year, that there were some sins that needed to be covered.