Sheniy

No, because there was more dry land than there is now. The topography of the earth was completely different than it is now. Much of what was dry land before Noah's flood is now under water. So there would be plenty of land for people to live on had man never sinned. The Earth would still become full, it would just take longer in that case. Maybe we would have discovered space travel and terraforming at that point, and we could start colonies on other planets. Last I checked, outer space is really, really big. God discouraged man reaching for the heavens after he became sinful (tower of Babel, etc), and he shortened our lifespan, forcing each generation to relearn things. But maybe if Sin hadn't entered the world, we would have spread out to the stars. Just a thought. I think I would have to disagree with that.... I truly believe that God intended for Adam and Eve to fail and have Lucifer/Satan responsible for them knowing good from evil... When he made Adam and Eve they were not qualified to be any kind of judge..... and since we are told by Paul that we are going to judge the angels, I would find it rather stretching for him to make us not capable of doing that.... just as I think it is beyond a stretch to think he just decided for us to to the judging as a secondary thought after we fell. At the end of the sixth day, everything was set and it was actually well. The trap for Satan had been set and he fell right into it... and as they say the rest is history. That is not biblical. There is nothing in Scripture to support the notion that God "intended" for Adam and Eve to fall. Man had to fall in order to be qualified to judge angels??? Where does that find any support in the Bible??? The fall of man was not a trap for Satan and the Bible says no such thing. You really have to go around the Bible to arrive at all of that stuff, 'cause you won't get it from the Bible, that is for sure. The crisis of doctrinal purity in the Church is soooo evident these days I agree with Shiloh. (wait, whaaat? lol) It doesn't make sense to me that God would intend for man to fail. I believe He saw the likely possibility of it and prepared a plan of salvation (aka Jesus), but I don't think He created us as pawns or automatons. We do have free will. Otherwise, we can't really love Him, right?

I am not saying that it does. I am saying that the way we answer such questions need to be from an inward motivation to protect our relationship with God at all costs, rather than asking from a motivation of wanting see how much we can get away with or from a slavish obedience to a set of rules. So sounds like what you're saying is we need to be balanced. Not legalistic or libertarian (see ) in our approach to Scripture. Placing God first in our lives. Is that the essence of what your saying brother? In Christ, GE What I am saying is that our decisions about what we do and don't do should come from an inner God-given desire to be holy at any cost and to allow nothing in our lives that would in any way jeopardize any part of the relationship we have with God. And that is different for different people. For some, it may be a particular genre of music for others it could be a genre of movies or TV shows or video games. For someone else, it could even be a hobby. The innocence of the act isn't the issue. If it cuts in on our relationship with God at any point, it is a problem. I agree with this. The problem in the church comes when I say "alcohol/rock music/knitting is bad for me, therefore it is bad for everyone," and I hold others to that standard. Or if I say, "look, I gave all of my possessions to the poor. You should, too, if you want to be as good as me." I've heard that one, before.

*cheers and thumbs up* YES. Amen! Discussions on biblical topics are frequent (and heated) in my family, yet we still manage to speak to each other afterwards. My mom and her sister are really close despite their disagreement on the rapture. My mom takes Genesis 1 literally, and my dad is more open to evolution (and, er, aliens...). Their debates have gotten really intense, but they get over it. My dad is a cessationist as far as the gifts of the Spirit go, and, uh...let's just say he didn't approve of my choice of bible school...haha. I've seen unity in a family despite huge differences in bible doctrines. Not sure why it's so hard among members of the family of Christ. I've heard that position on tithing preached in churches. Usually when they want money... That's a pretty intense reaction, though. Wow. (Cut off from Facebook, even! That's the way to make it "official", I guess...) You should show him the passages in the bible where Jesus says to give everything you have. See what he says about that. I know what that's like, though. I came pretty close to being excommunicated from the church I grew up in. I was the "black sheep" of the church family. What did I do? I went to bible college. Yep. I moved across the country to a tongues-speaking, Holy Spirit focused, birthed-out-of-revival-fire bible school (it was so awesome). My home church tolerated me after I moved back, but mainly because of my parents. My mom was already questioning the pastor on a certain pet doctrine or three ("Uh, hi. You know how you teach this? Well, this is what the bible says..."), and they didn't want to push her away by kicking me out. Funny thing, one of those pet doctrines of my old church was an intolerance for those who didn't believe exactly what they did. They, apparently, had all the answers, and if you didn't agree with them, you weren't a true Christian. Their reasoning for this came from a few verses in the New Testament that they took literally. They believed that if you joined them in Holy Communion with the saints and you didn't have "perfect' faith (i.e. agree with them), you were contaminating the circle of true believers. Or something. Anyway... Hope you clear things up with your friend. I'll keep ya in my prayers. It was during the break between school semesters. I was home for the summer, but still technically a student. It was the year I turned 21, and I was with family at my dad's cabin. Someone offered me the wine cooler...I think it was my mom, actually, so proud of her grown-up daughter. It was the most alcohol I'd had at one time ever. I really didn't think much of it. Sort of like soda, but it made me sleepy... Anyway, my roommates didn't rat on me. I think they believed me when I said I didn't know the rule. And I showed them in the bible that alcohol itself isn't evil, but we shouldn't abuse it. Some of them were new Christians who came from a lifestyle of parties and drinking, so to them, it was never just one wine cooler. To them, alcohol itself was a part of their sinful past. I got in touch with one of those roommates about five years later. She was sporting two brand new tattoos. I had to really stretch my thinking not to point my finger and say "you heathen, you!!!" They were really cool tattoos, though, based on the ministry she was in.

Fascinating subject! Time is a part of creation, but it is different from a spacial dimension (at least, for us) in the sense that it is far more limited. Spatially, I can move forward, backward, sideways, move faster or slower, I can spin around and go in a different direction, or stop completely. With time, I only go forward at one speed until time runs out, and I can't see exactly what lies ahead. God, as the Creator of time, doesn't have the same limitations. Unless He imposes them on Himself, of course. Jesus was subject to the same limits of time and space that we are while He walked this earth. Agreed. I believe that while our body is limited to this existence (three spacial dimensions plus time), our spirit extends beyond into higher realms. This is what separates us from the animals. And because the spirit and the higher dimensions are unseen, they seems less real to us when, in fact, it is probably the greater reality. Many of the things mentioned in the bible are described as copies of things in heaven. IMHO, God Himself is the ultimate reality; compared to Him, everything else is just a dream.

That is a good question sister. In any disagreement I think ideally we should offer the other person horizontal grace - meaning we should be loving, kind, gentle, peace-makers, and self-controlled in the spirit of Gal. 5:22-23. God has given us vertical grace (salvation, justification, sanctification) and we should in turn pass it along to others. Realizing that everyone who Believers is being conformed to the mind of Christ and is His work in progress. But let's talk about the specifics here. So let's say you believe that we should completely abstain from alcohol and that drinking alcohol is sin. So… since we're talking about Biblical truth we obviously turn to the Bible. See next post. God bless, GE Thank you for replying so graciously to someone who may disagree with you. We need more of that in the Church. I don't disagree with you, actually. I attended a church growing up that served wine for Communion, then later I attended a bible college that required complete abstinence from alcohol. A few of my roommates got really offended when I admitted to drinking a wine cooler over the summer. While technically I did accidentally break a school rule (I wasn't aware it extended into school breaks), I didn't do anything really wrong. But that's not how they saw it. To me, it was a just my preference or conviction, to them, it was a biblical truth. To them, I was "backsliding". My aunt and uncle also abstain from alcohol, but I believe that for them it is a preference. My uncle had an addiction to alcohol that nearly destroyed their marriage, so now they don't touch the stuff. Those in the family who do occasionally drink respect that decision and don't drink around them, and my aunt and uncle don't look down on us judgmentally. That's unity in the family. On this subject, at least. (now I just need to get my mom and her sister to stop fighting about the rapture! lol) The reason for my hypothetical question is that I see this problem happening quite often in the Church. One person's conviction goes against another person's idea of biblical truth. Maybe both sides have good biblical "logic" to back up their beliefs, but they can't seem to agree. It's not necessarily the disagreement that divides them, though. It's the prideful "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude behind much division in the Church. God knows I'm guilty of this quite often, and I pray He continually reveals these areas to me. I want to be a better witness to the rest of the world. We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord And I pray that all unity may one day be restored They will know we are Christians by our love, by our love They will know we are Christians by our love I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. - Gandhi "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me." - John 17:21

Excellent post! We studied dihydrogen monoxide in high school. Fascinating stuff. Pretty sure there was some in my coffee this morning. I got suckered into believing a few things over the years. Now, I always check with google. We can trust everything we read on the internet, right?

Fire-heart, I love reading your posts. They are so full of passion and fire for God. Hold on to that! Ty Shenly I am glad you enjoy them but as for my dreams and visions Its probably best I dont share those anymore considering the trouble they cause Don't let a bit of discussion or debate discourage you. I've read a few of your posts and I agree with some of the responses. We should check all things against the Word to make sure we're not straying from the truth. I believe that is all people are doing here; they are making sure you stay grounded in Scripture. There are some nasty heresies that came out of people putting too much emphasis on someone's dream or vision. We do need to be careful. Having said that, I do believe that God speaks to us in dreams and visions. I've had a few myself. All but one of them were messages intended mainly for me, usually reminders of things I already knew but needed to hear again or answers to prayers or personal warnings. I've shared them with others, but they didn't have the same impact, because the messages weren't for them. You may not get the response you might be expecting here by sharing your experiences because these are yours. They likely won't mean the same to the rest of us (though I still enjoy reading them!). The story comes to mind of the OT prophet Samuel. When he was a boy, God spoke to him. Not understanding, he went to Eli, the high priest. Eli told Samuel that, next time it happens, he should tell God that he's listening. He did, and God revealed His message to Samuel. (You can read the story here.) If you are looking for answers or meanings to your visions or dreams, instead of coming here, tell God that you recognize His voice and that you're listening. He's the best Person to seek for answers. (Then come here and share! )

Fire-heart, I love reading your posts. They are so full of passion and fire for God. Hold on to that!

I just re-read my post in context with the OP and I want to clarify a few things! (oops) 1. I am not endorsing the belief that Jesus wasn't God (It seems like I'm saying this way too often. I need to learn to communicate better, lol). I wasn't referring to the examples in the OP at all, actually. This post came more out of my experience in other areas, which I should probably explain. I belonged to this church as a kid that taught that their denomination were the only "true" christians, and other "so-called believers" who disagreed with them on anything theological were not really christian (that would likely include most people here). I got sucked into this belief, and actually believed that I had all the answers. I was fourteen, and most teenagers believe they know everything, but I was super-religious about it. I was a little monster. I chewed out a girl who believed in purgatory (because all Catholics were heretics) and judged her based on that without really knowing what she believed. She believed Jesus died for her, though, so didn't that mean she was saved? Later, I received Foxe's Book of Martyrs as a gift from my pastor. All the kids my age got one, but I was probably the only one to read it. Clearly my pastor never did, because the good christian martyrs all died for "false doctrine". I showed this to my pastor, he took my book and never gave it back! I examined these "heresies" in scripture and found them to be biblical truth (or at least biblically supported). My pastor was wrong to call them heresies and judge those who believed them. That was mostly what my point was based on. (Btw, highly recommend the book!) 2. This was in no way an attack on the person who started this thread. Atwood, I know we're in a heated discussion in another part of the forum, but I didn't even realize that you were the one posting here. I guess I saw your name, but I didn't make the connection. I do this thing where I chime in with a different perspective, whether people want to hear it or not; it gets me into trouble quite a bit. It wasn't personal. Just my two cents.

I would say number 2 for sure. It's wise to be like the Bereans and back things up with Scripture. Gotta be careful, though, that the things we're defending are not the traditional doctrines of man. I feel like sometimes we're so afraid of heresy that we can't see the truth. How many true believers have been persecuted or martyred over the millennia for challenging the doctrines of the "orthodox" religious leaders of the day? (I can name quite a few...) And where would we be today if they hadn't? We're not all going to agree on everything. And none of us have all the answers. That's why we need the Holy Spirit, right?

LOL! I can relate. Some of the best times of my life, but hard to explain to people. Definitely feels like madness. I'm curious about what you had to say, but your links were removed. Could you elaborate a bit? Or send me a PM? Thanks.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Reminds me of a book I read years ago. The author had a vision/dream of people trapped in a prison yard with weak walls, but they are completely oblivious to the fact that they are in prison, so none of them try to escape.

And maybe if before you start typing (or after, when you review what you have just written) Ensure that the thoughts and points are clear and you don't contradict yourself with every other statement. That will leave the reader with contemplating just your words (which is all we have on a written forum) without reaching for an abacus to try and divine what you are saying and the true meaning. My posts are perfectly clear, Enoch. As I have shown, you take things out of context. Either you don't understand what I say, or you don't want to. I tried to explain, but you don't want to hear it. Most people have learned to look beyond "just the words" of any text to find the author's meaning in context. This is vital especially when reading the bible. In fact, a reader would have to do this when reading most of your posts, which are usually full of colorful metaphors and things which wouldn't make sense in a literal reading. Picking a sentence or phrase and reading "just the words" is just going to lead to unnecessary misunderstandings. This all started because I said I don't want to debate you. This is why I don't want to debate you. Let's get back on topic.

Baseless Unsupported Conjecture. Where? Right here, for one. You chopped up my post, picked a line you disagree with, then you reply with just a logical fallacy argument. And it's not baseless unsupported conjecture, since I can prove it (again) here: How will you be "ready" if you don't know or study Scripture. Because I never said anywhere that I don't study scripture. You added that to change my intended meaning. And you treat that quote as if I hadn't said this, just a few sentences earlier: "I study prophecy in Scripture to know the signs, and I lean on the Holy Spirit to lead me." I noticed that this particular line you didn't respond to. You just cut it out of your reply when you chopped up my post. I'm guessing it was something you couldn't argue with. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe you didn't realize you were doing this. Maybe instead of a literal comprehension of the post, instead of just reading the words and what they mean, try to dig deeper and find out what the poster actually meant before starting an argument. I added that verse in 1 Corinthians to remind you that knowing all things isn't the most important. We see through a glass darkly. That's ok. It only requires us to daily lean on the One who can see clearly. I've noticed that when I admit that I don't know all the answers, when I humble myself and allow myself to be teachable, that's when He shifts something in my thinking, and the gems in the Word really sparkle.

Not really. I gave you a METRIC TON of scripture to back up my point, which included the one passage that you claim as your "answer". Try again. ...But not here, because it's off topic. You wouldn't be debating me, you'd be debating the WORD of GOD. You have No Interest? That's like a Biochemist having no interest in the Citric Acid Cycle. A valid Post Trib argument? That's news to me.......Show One According to THE WORD it isn't. Yes, then Jesus Prophesied against the City and destroyed it because the didn't do their Due Diligence with Prophecy. Quite sobering. So you're saying that since the Jews didn't Recognize HIM from Prophecy/Scripture then what's the sense in studying Prophecy/Scripture?? So if The LORD would ask you why you didn't know or had any interest......that would be your answer? If so, Do you think that would fly? Yea, me neither. Then why did HE write it in THE WORD? Filler? Didn't Jesus admonish us to understand.... Matthew 24:15: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" If you just read that then you are obligated to understand it. Sorry, I didn't write it. It'll be exactly what's in The WORD. Most will be caught unaware because they haven't been...... 2 Timothy 2:15: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." This is partly why I don't want to debate you. You seem to assume that your reading and interpretation of the bible is as infallible as the Word itself. You chop up my post and twist it to mean something else that you can throw an argument or accusation ("logical fallacy!!") at. You don't read what I say to find my intended meaning, you read it to find something you can argue with. You see me as an opponent because I disagreed with you in other topics, so therefore we must be at odds about everything? If you had read my first post, Enoch, you would have realized that I was considering your side of this argument. I am trying to have an open mind about this. You really want to debate a post-tribber, go find a post-tribber. Hindsight may be 20/20, but foresight is blind. Prophecy is given by someone with Vision, but often interpreted by the those who can't see (fallible humans). I study prophecy in Scripture to know the signs, and I lean on the Holy Spirit to lead me. I don't need to know every detail. I don't need to make a timeline of what will happen, because I'll probably be wrong. It's also not what's important. When Jesus comes back, He won't commend me on my theories and speculations, but on my readiness. "If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." - 1 Corinthians 13:2

What faith issue? Are you referring to our Hebrews 11:1 discussion (still waiting for answers! ), or is this something else? I've been around. Lurking as a Guest on my phone, mostly (it doesn't seem to want to stay logged in). The F vs S forum seems to have quieted down...or derailed. I'll jump in again when I see an interesting topic. The "Post-Trib" view is "contrived" without a shred of Scriptural Support Whatsoever. Without posting the mountains of Scripture in support of Pre-Trib (That is Pre-70th Week of Daniel) just answer the 2 questions below: If "The Church" who's Mission is to proclaim the Gospel to the World is still on the Earth during The Great Tribulation, then why the need for the Angel to proclaim it "to those who live on the Earth" in Rev 14? Then after that: How does the "Bride"----------> "The Church" (Born Again Christians), FOLLOW Christ in HIS SECOND COMING (See Rev 19) after the Marriage Supper if they're still on the Earth waiting to be "Raptured" ?? If you can't answer those in a Post Trib Context......(and you can't), You have just file 13nd your...... "I have absolutely no idea what's going to happen", Statement. Don't mistake Simplicity with the Lack of VERACITY. Most things in this life are Simple.....it's "people" and their "a priori" UNSUPPORTED World Views that complicate matters. They are Helpless Against.......The Two-Edged Sword!!!! Praise The LORD!!!! I really don't want to debate you on this, Enoch. I could, I just have no interest in defending either side. I have heard valid arguments in favor of both. I'm perfectly happy just observing this discussion and seeing how it turns out in the end. When I said I was traditionally pre-trib, I meant that it's what I was taught as a child and accepted as truth because it is what I was told. My parents were really into it. I was also traditionally YEC, and you know how that turned out. After my crisis of faith a few years ago, I've had to do a lot of truth-seeking to figure out what I actually believed and what I just thought I did. I was exaggerating a bit when I said I had no idea what was going to happen. I have some idea. Jesus is coming back, I know that. But the rest is purely speculative and just my opinion. I figure if the people of Jesus' day who studied the coming Messiah didn't know Him when He stood before them, why would I assume I can guess prophecy any better? I can look for signs, but I don't expect to know for sure. That's kinda the thing with prophecy: we won't see it coming until after it happens. IMHO, when it actually happens, it probably won't be what most people were expecting. Best to just be ready.

Hey Spock, this is really interesting. This is sort of in line with something I feel the Holy Spirit convicting me of recently. Kinda feel like He's grabbing me on the shoulder and saying "Hey, wake up! You need to get ready!" 'Cause I will admit that I've been slacking. Thanks for the reinforcement. I have traditionally been post-trib, but I've recently been reexamining my traditional beliefs , and I've been looking more at the other side of the tribulation/rapture fence, just to get some perspective. My conclusion so far: I have absolutely no idea what's going to happen. I think the most important thing is, like you said, to be ready. I'm not sure about your "two raptures" idea, but the idea of some of the Church being taken as "firstfruits" is worth looking into. This is a harvest, after all. So...twelve people? (lol just messing with you, Enoch)

Are we still on this? lol You still haven't answered my questions, Enoch.

True. I've let go of a few pet doctrines, myself.

Thanks. Little disappointed that it was I put a lot of work into it. I seriously studied for hours to get all the scripture to back up my points. But it was actually really cool. I learned a lot myself, which is the main reason why I'm even doing this. Iron sharpens iron, right? I just think it's ironic that we get scolded for twisting and manipulating Genesis to fit our theology, but with Hebrews 11:1 it's allowed.

That's not my interpretation.....I never said it had to be "Physical" evidence. See Multiple posts with (BMW/Sea Water/"Specific Complexity" et al) Isn't that physical evidence...? Would "natural evidence" fit better? ==================================================== It's Conceptual not Tangible Direct evidence in this Specific Case. The only way it can be Direct Physical Evidence, is if HE Manifested HIMSELF before us.......That's Coming So...what does that have to do with Hebrews 11:1 again?

That's not my interpretation.....I never said it had to be "Physical" evidence. See Multiple posts with (BMW/Sea Water/"Specific Complexity" et al) Isn't that physical evidence...? Would "natural evidence" fit better?

========================================================================= Can't explain it any simpler to you Sheniy. Go ahead and reread the post. The simple "Evidence" I provided renders your questions and the subsequent answers, moot. No it doesn't. lol I reviewed your post and you said this: All your positions are basically: If you have Proof, what's the need for Faith. Hmm. First, you're lumping us all into the same assumption. That's not my position. I was disagreeing with your interpretation of Hebrews 11:1 that substance is physical evidence. You were getting jumped on from all sides, so I understand the confusion. lol Second, I think you misunderstand their position (whoever has that position). It is my position, but I think the biggest confusion is that too many people have too many different opinions on what "proof' is. Let me try this example...I tell you that Mercer just beat Duke in college basketball. Now you have not seen the score but know that I am huge college basketball fan so you have faith that I am telling you the truth. Then you turn on your TV and see the score on the screen, now you have actual proof so you no longer need to have faith in what I said, in fact it is now impossible to have faith because you now have proof. I think the definition of "faith" is also an issue. In your scenario, faith = belief in a general fact. I think Enoch is equating "faith" with being a christian and trusting God. Or something.

========================================================================= Can't explain it any simpler to you Sheniy. Go ahead and reread the post. The simple "Evidence" I provided renders your questions and the subsequent answers, moot. No it doesn't. lol I reviewed your post and you said this: All your positions are basically: If you have Proof, what's the need for Faith. Hmm. First, you're lumping us all into the same assumption. That's not my position. I was disagreeing with your interpretation of Hebrews 11:1 that substance is physical evidence. You were getting jumped on from all sides, so I understand the confusion. lol Second, I think you misunderstand their position (whoever has that position).

1. Faith is not absolutely blind. Then... 2. Substance isn't faith. This is a Contradiction. And..... (Hebrews 11:1) "Now faith is the--------> substance <-------- of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." So your position is, Faith is not substance? Did you even read the rest of the paragraph? Here it is again. Please read past the first sentence. 2. Substance isn't faith. This isn't a math problem where F = S. They're not interchangeable. You seem to think that verse is saying that substance (evidence) is necessary for faith (you said, "Yes, because Faith is based on Substance."), but it's not saying that (and you're leaving out the rest of the verse). It isn't based on actual physical substance. It doesn't result from substance. In this verse, faith is already acquired. Faith is hope, realized. --------- Just because you walked with Jesus, doesn't mean you have unshakable faith. You missed the Point. And you missed the rest of what I said. Again. How much of it did you even read? lol Here's a sample: Peter's faith was weak, like a faulty hypothesis. These are Jesus' words, by the way (not the hypothesis part, lol) in Matthew 14:31. Jesus tells his disciples their faith is weak several times. They had plenty of evidence! Their faith was lacking SUBSTANCE. He said faith as small as a mustard seed (oh, look! Substance!) can move a mountain (Matthew 17:20). The problem with the disciples was their faith was BASED ON EVIDENCE. Get it? Maybe if I try Enoch-style. The problem with the disciples was their faith was-------> BASED ON EVIDENCE!!!!! <------------------ Consider thy battleship sunk, my friend. ----------- Why a three toed Gnome?! Why not? You missed my other questions. I answered yours. It's only fair. If my argument is wrong, then why do scriptures support it? Can you explain them away? Can you provide as many scripture to support your argument?