Salty

And I thought you understood what I covered from Apostle Paul in Romans 11! And instead you accuse me... of anti-semitism too? What Paul taught there in Romans 11 about the blindness God put upon the Jews is an elementary Christian doctrine, regardless of who doesn't like to admit it. You can tell the owner then, to just wipe ALL of my posts, because I certainly wouldn't want to send anyone to hell for showing them God's Word as written!

I've got to assume from what you've written so far that you hold to the doctrine of men called the Pre-trib Rapture. I do not, nor do I find that doctrine written anywhere... in God's Word. The 144,000 of Israel does not mean they all will be beheaded or delivered up. It simply means an elect group of Israelites that God has preserved so they won't fall away to the coming Antichrist. It does not include anyone from the past, but only those of the final generation. And only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi represent the Israelites called Jews. The rest are from the ten northern tribes of Israel which are lost, and were never known as Jews. Even the Jews don't know who and where the ten lost tribes of Israel are. (the ten tribes lost their heritage as part of Israel. If you don't know this Bible history, then you've got a lot of catching up to do in OT study). Rev 7:13-14 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. KJV That idea of their having come out of "great tribulation" and washed their robes in the blood of The Lamb (Jesus) means THEY WENT THROUGH THE TRIBULATION and overcame. They did not... fly away, like your doctrine of men wrongly teaches. The Revelation 7 chapter is about God's sealing of His servants prior to the 'day of the Lord" that ends this world. That "great multitude" represent saved Gentiles being shown John in the future... at the time after Christ's return. In Revelation 19, the Rev.19:1-9 verses are ALL of the time AFTER Christ's second coming! That is when the marriage supper will take place, i.e, in His Kingdom, which means AFTER the tribulation. My point is, the marriage supper cannot happen at ANY other time than the time Christ's future Millennium. So no rapture prior to the end of the tribulation, which is actually a doctrine of men. And ah... the living waters, you haven't been studying your OT Bible, tche, tche, tche, shame on you... because those living waters are about God's River that flows out from under the threshold of the sanctuary of Ezekiel, during Christ's future Millennium reign! (See Ezekiel 47, as it is ON EARTH). It really saddens me that so many of my Christian brothers and sisters have to put up with preachers that don't know their OT Bible as well as the NT. The last 9 chapters of the Book of Ezekiel are all about the future "thousand years" reign by our Lord Jesus and His elect, in Jerusalem, on earth. Even Revelation 20 shows that dwelling as the "camp of the saints" on earth. They don't even consider even Genesis 2 which first mentioned God's River in His Garden of Eden, flowing out of Eden to feed four other rivers upon the earth! Instead, some preacher who preaches as a business like a hireling (John 10) tells brethren all that is up in the clouds away from the earth somewhere! They create an imaginary la, la land, simply because they have no understanding of these things in God's Word! It saddens me (yet God spoke of this problem too - Jeremiah 23; Ezekiel 13; John 10; Acts 20:29). That's confusing. The New Jerusalem is for the new heavens, and a new earth timing, which is after... Christ's future "thousand years" reign, and after the "lake of fire" destroys the devil, death, hell, and the wicked. God's River will manifest on earth DURING Christ's 'thousand years" reign, as written in Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 47. Zech 14:7-9 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. KJV That "one day which shall be know to the LORD" is about the day of Christ's second coming. That is when those "livings waters shall go out from Jerusalem". Notice it didn't say those waters shall go out from Heaven, nor from the clouds. It's about future Jerusalem ON EARTH. The Ezekiel 47 chapter even names the areas of Engedi in the middle east with that River. So come back down to earth now, and get out of the clouds, the clouds are not going to be our home. You're definitely wrong there. Christ's elect will rule over all nations on earth during Christ's future thousand years reign. That means Christ's Church. And like Paul said, there is no difference between Jew or Greek (put for Gentile), we are all ONE BODY in Christ Jesus. The doctrine you're preaching is false. It comes from the Edward Irving and John Darby history in 1830's Great Britain. For over 1,800 years, no pre-trib rapture idea was ever taught in any Christian Church. You have well left the topic of discussion of my post by now. Should I continue to rebut your doctrines of men? Well... maybe a little more... The 24 elders most likely represent the 12 Patriarchs and 12 Apostles. And the timeline view there in Rev.5 about that is a FUTURE VIEW in Christ's Millennial Kingdom, on earth. In Ezekiel 44, we are shown that only the Zadok (the Just) are allowed to approach Jesus at His table and serve Him. At the same time, we are shown that the Levites which went astray when Israel went astray, will only be allowed to do the menial duties in that future sanctuary on earth and will not be allowed to approach Jesus. In Rev.3, Jesus promised to the Church of Philadelphia that He would make the false Jews of the synagogue of Satan to come worship at their feet, which suggests Christ will be right next to His elect of that Church. My point, thus the Zadok (the Just) of Ezekiel 44 are the faithful elect of Christ's Church which will be near Him in that time (i.e., the marriage supper)! Jesus is our King of Righteousness, Melchizedek, which is where that name Zadok comes from which means 'righteousness, or just'. That's about as far as I care to go.

That shows the outer limits of your ability to think, which is sad, because it's all wrong. By God Himself blinding them so The Gospel could go to the Gentiles, and then in final removing the blindness of Rom.11:7-8 that He put on them so they would then 'see' to believe on Jesus, that is about God using them, and then in final SAVING them! And that's why Paul said this, which YOU reject unto your own destruction: Rom 11:23 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. KJV What does Paul mean by their being able to be graffed in "again"? They are the "natural branches", God's original chosen, which is the point of Rom.11:29 further below. They're like Apostle Paul BEFORE Jesus struck him down on the road to Damascus and influenced Paul's choice to believe on Jesus. Saul (then called) clearly rejected Jesus Christ prior to that. But Jesus divinely intervened with Paul, which is a sign of the very elect chosen. That's why Jesus also said Paul was His "chosen vessel" in Acts 9. So just like how Jesus intervened in Paul's choice, He can also do that with the majority of unbelieving Jews at the end of this world, when the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. This will happen only for those Jews that still do not remain in unbelief, like Paul said in the Rom.11:23 verse. And thus Paul says... Rom 11:26-29 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. KJV

That example of shiloh357's question is an example of Biblical ignorance folks. He asked me if I have a problem with the Jews, when the matter I've been showing by Apostle Paul from Romans 11 is how God is going to SAVE all the Jews once the "fulness of the Gentiles" comes in. That's when Paul pointing to God removing the blindness He put upon them so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles! So if anything, I am showing how Apostle Paul taught GOD HAS NOT FORGOTTEN THE MAJORITY OF JEWS, EVEN THOUGH THE MAJORITY OF THEM STILL REJECT JESUS CHRIST TODAY! So what shiloh357 has done is to FALSELY ACCUSE ME OF ANTI-SEMITISM, when I am actually declared how God is going to SAVE THE JEWS TOO! It is ignorant brethren like shiloh357 that is showing anti-semitism, because he is showing he DOES NOT BELIEVE THE JEWS CAN BE SAVED! He obviously is against... the Jew's salvation for some reason! And that is... anti-semitism.

That's just what YOU say. And so far, because of your lack of Scripture evidence to refute it, it's shows what YOU say isn't really much. Now go ahead and try again, to disprove that Paul didn't say God put blindness upon the Israel in part: Rom 11:7-8 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. KJV And while you're at it, say that part in red to yourself outloud, making sure our Heavenly Father can hear you, so He can label you a heretic against His Word and against Apostle Paul.

You fail to even make a point in all that long post. If you cannot stay on topic of the discussion, you shouldn't bother with wasting other brethren's time.

You don't recognize the whole Bible, you don't even know what is contained in a lot of it, otherwise you would understand what I've been showing directly from God's Holy Writ. No, you and others like you are on a POLITICAL agenda, the difference is you're just USING The Bible to promote men's doctrines.

Well, yes it certainly does mean God INFLUENCED their choice to believe, or not believe. And the other Scriptures covering the future Millennium time, like where Paul quoted Isaiah, shows ALL of them will be saved, meaning once that BLINDNESS GOD PUT UPON THEM IS REMOVED.

Well, actually, only a REMNANT of the northern ten tribes migrated south and joined with the "house of Judah" in Jeroboam's days, because of the golden calves idols he setup in the north. But that certainly was NOT the majority of the ten tribes. The majority stayed in the north and were removed by the kings of Assyria long before Jesus' 1st coming. Since you don't recognize this from GOD'S HOLY WRIT, it shows you don't have any business even commenting on the matter.

You yourself appear to have been 'blinded' by that "spirit of slumber", it is obvious. Let's do a little test... Do you believe Jesus of Nazareth is GOD come in the flesh???

Either one accepts what Paul said below (in red), or they don't: Rom 11:8 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. KJV Rom 11:26-29 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. KJV

It is not about all Israel being partially blinded. It is about a part... of Israel that God has blinded away from The Gospel so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. That part... of Israel are the majority of Jews, even the Jews which agreed to have Jesus crucified! It was not the ten tribes, because they were already removed and gone out of the land before Jesus' 1st coming. Only the "house of Judah" (Jews) was left in the southern lands of Israel.

No since in your trying to explain it, you don't understand the Scripture about God putting that blindness upon them.

Since God put the "spirit of slumber" upon that blinded part of Israel, it means He will not destroy them since He caused... their blindness. And as I said from the beginning! WHEN that blindness is REMOVED, then they will be able to 'hear', and 'see', with eyes to see and ears to hear, and then will make their choice WITHOUT ANY OUTSIDE INFLUENCE, even with Satan locked in his pit prison for a thousand years! But until Jesus comes, the MAJORITY of them WILL remain BLINDED BY GOD'S HAND. During this world, God has 'chosen' an elect remnant out of the seed of Israel, and thus some Jews have not been blinded away from The Gospel. The rabbi who started the Jews For Jesus group converted to Jesus because he began to properly understand the 70 weeks prophecy in the Book of Daniel regarding the time that Messiah would come (1st coming), and then be 'cut off'.

That's just more denial of what is actually written. One more time... Rom 11:7-10 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. KJV The Greek for "slumber' there is katanuxis which means 'a prickling (sensation, as of the limbs asleep), stupor (lethargy)'. It means God put upon their minds confusion, lethargy, towards The Gospel. THEY DID NOT DO IT OF THEMSELVES!

The "acceptable year of the Lord" was about Christ's 1st coming. The "day of vengeance of our God" is about Christ's 2nd coming to do battle and take reign over all nations. The souls under the altar on the 5th seal do cry out, asking 'how long', but the main Message there is about those of the brethren that also must be killed as they were giving a Testimony for Jesus. So that's pointing to some of us being delivered up during the tribulation to give that witness, along with God's two witnesses. Rev.11 about the witnesses mentions two candlesticks. At the end of Rev.1, Jesus declared the candlesticks John saw are the seven Churches. Five months is the shortened time Rev.9 is pointing to. Those not sealed are only allowed to be stung for "five months". And I admonish brethren to be careful in determining just what that 'stinging' is. The time that the ark was upon the height of the waters of the flood was 150 days. Using the old Hebrew calendar reckoning for 30 days = 1 month, that 150 days = five months. You ought to be able to figure the rest of that out. The destruction upon the wicked on earth will be a "sudden destruction" like Paul said in 1 Thess.5. That event is what he was linking the "day of the Lord" to coming "as a thief in the night". In other words, it is going to be at an instant, suddenly, which is what God showed by His prophet Isaiah. And from the Book of Isaiah is where Apostle Paul was pulling that idea from in 1 Thess.5. In Luke 21 (as also in Matt.24 and Mark 13), our Lord Jesus was referring to when they see ALL those signs, not just one sign in the sun, moon, and stars: Luke 21:28-31 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. KJV Thusly, we are to look for all those signs.

I am NOT misinterpreting Paul. Why do you DISREGARD what Paul said? and even what The Father and His Son said about putting that blindness upon them? Rom 11:7-10 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. KJV Where's all the NT preaching revealing Paul preaching that those in Christ were chosen from the foundation of the world? And especially about God calling out a people who would believe on Jesus? If God Himself blinded you, I guarantee you will be subject to confusion in The Scriptures and not understand that Jesus of Nazareth is Messiah, just as Paul was showing in 2 Corinthians 3. And what did Jesus say to His Apostles when they asked Him why He spoke to the multitudes in parables? Jesus told them that they were blessed, and that they had 'eyes to see', which means the blindness of Rom.11 was not upon them. Matt 13:11-16 11 He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, 'By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.' 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. KJV Where Jesus was quoting from: Isa 6:9-10 9 And He said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. KJV

I don't know who you've been listening to, but the brethren yet to be killed as the souls under the altar asked how long, are not just about the 144,000 of Rev.7. In Rev.7, there 2 separate groups given, the 144,000, and the "great multitude". The 144,000 represent the sealed of Israelites (of ALL 12 tribes, not just Jews), and then the "great multitude" are the Gentiles that are sealed who ALSO will go through the time of great tribulation. Some from 'both' groups will be delivered up to give a Testimony for Jesus at the end (Mark 13; Rev.13; Rev.11:7 includes 2 candlesticks which means 2 Churches). We are NOT going to be raptured prior to the tribulation. That idea is man's folly, not The Word of God.

Well, yes it is, even to this day. Paul told you WHEN the "spirit of slumber" God put upon them will be removed. Didn't you bother to read that from Apostle Paul? Rom 11:25-26 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: KJV Are your preachers teaching you something else? If so, why would they disregard what Paul said there? 2 Cor 3:13-16 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. KJV Paul showed there that even the children of Israel in Moses' day couldn't understand what God was doing back then. You can make up all sorts of twists and turns to get away from the Romans 11 Scripture by Paul, but Paul was stern about us not boasting against the Israel in part which have been blinded. And for WHAT reason were they blinded according to Paul??? Rom 11:28 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. KJV Rom 11:30-32 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. KJV Rom 11:11 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. KJV Anyone who boasts against God's Will there according to Apostle Paul is an apostate away from Christ Jesus. Any soul who condemns someone whom God Himself blinded for His Purpose does not know The Word of God nor what God's Plan of Salvation is actually about. Even in the future Millennium in Ezekiel 44, we are shown the Levites which went astray when Israel went astray, will be given the menial duties within God's House. They will not be allowed to serve Christ at His table. Only the Zadok (the Just) will be allowed to approach Jesus in that time. Anyone saying those Levites will be destroyed does not know our Heavenly Father's Will, nor His Word of Truth.

Agree with your argument, except the part that the Scripture is referring literally to a year. All your 3 references use the idea of a 'day' as the coming "day of the Lord". No need to interpret that to mean a year just because of that "the year of my redeemed" phrase. It can easily mean just a certain time in general, and not a full year. The NT Scripture reveals it will come suddenly at a certain hour on a certain day.

That God blinded them with the "spirit of slumber" away from accepting The Gospel is EXACTLY what Apostle Paul was saying in Romans 11. The Scripture there is unmistakable. Those who don't believe what Apostle Paul said there are what he called, BOASTERS.

We shall see... I never denied that our Lord Jesus was rejected by His Own. Heck, the Jews agreed with the scribes and Pharisees to crucify Him! But their act did NOT seal their destruction, as you obviously wrongly... suggest. Who made you judge and jury? You are not God, and certainly do NOT know His thoughts, like you accuse me of!!! These verses are about the unbelieving Jews mainly, but ALSO including ANY born of the seed of Jacob that refuses Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah: Rom 11:7-12 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? KJV If you are saying those above Romans 11:7-12 verses is NOT about God Himself putting that "spirit of slumber" upon those of Israel that rejected Jesus, then you bear FALSE WITNESS AGAINST GOD AND HIS WORD. And these following verses also... Rom 11:23-29 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. KJV They are CHOSEN by God, you white-washed wall! You cannot condemn them to the "lake of fire", you false mortared wall that will come down with God's storm!

Heb 2:14 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; KJV "Death" was capitalized as a pronoun in Rev.6:8, as we are told that's the name of the rider on the 4th seal pale horse. That's another title for Satan himself, as he was given the power of death. So hell following after him is pointing to his working, and the working of his servants on earth. The 4 parts: (possibly, as symbols): someone once said there are 4 main categories one can break every operation on earth down into - the political, finance, military, religion: 1. "to kill with the sword" - control of a global army, the U.N. army being just a startup 2. "and with hunger" - world finance in control of the economies of nations through international banking 3. "and with death" - spiritual death through false religion, which is MUCH greater than flesh death; it's about deception 4. "and with the beasts of the earth" - the political; the "brute beasts" world controllers. Since the 5th Seal is about persecution of the saints with being delivered up to Satan's host and beheaded, that points to 7 years or "one week" of Dan.9:27. The working of the locust army would be just prior to that, and that's who I believe the forth part of the working on the earth is about, those being symbols for the locusts of the Book of Joel and Revelation 9.

That would probably make a good New Age novel to sell at New Age bookstores. It certainly does not fit God's Word though.

I agree we are possibly in the start of the 4th Seal. And also the 5th Trumpet. The 'five months' stinging, I see that beginning on the 5th Trumpet but the heart of it being on the 6th Trumpet (trib time). I don't believe that 4th part of the earth is any one particular location, but literally a 4th of the world. The Baal worshippers in New York city have erected a copy of the Arch of Baal in defiance of God. So our pattern in the USA today is similar to the northern kingdom of the house of Israel when many fell to Baal worship, and God brought the kings of Assyria upon them. We will soon face more persecutions here in the traditionally Christian west.