Last Daze

Hey Jeff, One of the cardinal rules I use when interpreting prophecy is that what is plainly stated takes precedence over something inferred when there is a conflict. The fifth trumpet clearly runs it's five month course before the sixth trumpet sounds. Nothing I've read supports multiple returns of Christ. His return is described as being in the same manner as His ascension. They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:11 Did Christ ascend twice? This verse argues against two returns of Jesus. "Babylon" is an allegorical reference to the kingdom of Satan. The kingdom of Satan is the ultimate source of all abominations and unfaithfulness. It promotes ungodly behavior among the human race. It is the mother of it all. It all started in the Garden. It is the only entity that qualifies to be "Babylon" the harlot. and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” Revelation 17:5 Babylon is destroyed completely, as you say, when the seventh bowl is poured out and Christ returns. The complete destruction of Babylon can not be accomplished until Satan and his angels are cast out. When Christ returns at the end of chapter 19 and into 20 is when the destruction of Babylon is completed. That's when Satan and company are cast out. Since there is only one return of Christ, and one ultimate destruction of Babylon, the return of Christ in Rev 19 further describes the events of the seventh bowl. It does not come after the destruction of Babylon. It is the destruction of Babylon. Satan and company are cast down. I view the events of Revelation 6-11 as being chronological and a rough outline sketch. The events of Revelation 12-19 I see as brushes of different colors that give detail to the sketch; events that clarify the picture. Based on the way I interpret prophecy, I can't agree with what you've described.

I thought a clarification was necessary because we often use the same terminology but have different meanings for those terms. The great tribulation coincides with the image of the beast, the one people must worship or be put to death. That follows the conflict where three of the ten horns are uprooted by the false prophet. So there are still some sign posts. But, yes, things could cut loose anytime. Darn, there I was agreeing with everything you wrote, and then this. Sorry, LD, but this is pure unsubstantiated spec. Here is the one substantive scripture about the beginning of the GT: Mt. 24:25 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand) ...14 ...then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." Here are the two substantive scriptures about the end of the GT: Matt. 29:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Rev. 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands... 14 “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." In the order of events as given in Revelation, the Beast does not appear until chapter 13, well after the 6th Seal Rapture of chapters 6-7. "The Beast ...will ascend out of the bottomless pit," Rev. 17:8. The bottomless pit/abyss is not opened until "the fifth angel sounded [his trumpet] ...To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit..." Ergo, the Beast does not arise until after the GT has ended, and the Wrath has already begun. You have cracked the chronology of the book of Revelation? Do tell! Not sure who that was intended for or whether is was serious or should have ended with /sarc. I'd be happy to share how I see the chronology of Revelation, if you were serious.

Revelation 9:5. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. Revelation 9:10. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. I believe the 5 months of torment (in those days) does not occur between the 5th and 6th trumpets, but after all the trumpets and vials are fulfilled. Do you agree that the events of Revelation, Chapter 19 occur after the 7th vial? Jeff Hi Jeff, Do you have any direct scriptural basis for putting those five months to happen chronologically after the seven plague angels' trumpets / bowls? The fifth trumpet (five months of locust stinging) is the first woe. It is finished before the sixth trumpet (second woe) is sounded. The first woe is past; behold, two woes are still coming after these things. Revelation 9:12 By every indication, the trumpets are sounded sequentially.

Rev. 2:26 “And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— 27 ‘He shall rule [G4165 poimano] them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’— as I also have received from My Father...'" Ps. 2:1 Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying, 3 “Let us break their bonds in pieces and cast away their cords from us.” And so on, about just what the LORD will do about it. There is a clear difference between rule and reign, as the Greek text of Revelation shows. There will be a clear distinction between when the LORD's Anointed/Messiah is proclaimed to reign, and when he begins to fully enforce his rule with power over the kings of the earth who rebel against his throne, as Psalm 2 shows. And believe it or not, the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and then 7 Bowls take place in sequential order, just as shown in Revelation. When the seventh trumpet sounds, something changes. Christ takes His power and begins to reign. Before that, it is reasonable to assume that He wasn't reigning somewhere in some capacity. The seventh trumpet tells us what changes. The governance of earth becomes Christ's. Before that, the governance of earth was Satan's. At the seventh trumpet: The seventh trumpet soundsChrist begins to reign - governance of earth becomes HisChrist comes with the cloudsEveryone sees HimThe dead in Christ are resurrected immortalThe alive in Christ are changed immortalThey attend the marriage supper (time is irrelevant to them at this point being immortal)All the tribes of the earth mournHailstones, lightening, thunder, earthquakeThe seventh bowl is poured out.more lightening and thunderan extreme earthquake, extreme hailstonesChrist returns with His armyBabylon (Satan's kingdom) is thrown downChrist establishes the millennial kingdom and begins to rule the nations.Any distinction between reigning and ruling is inconsequential. It all happens in one day, the day of the Lord. The time of testing when the seventh trumpet sounds is over. Everyone has declared their allegiance and Christ is returning for those who belong to Him. The mystery of the kingdom of God is finished that day as He preached to His servants, the prophets. Seventh angel (trumpet, bowl). Finished. but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets. Revelation 10:7 It's no longer a mystery.......here He comes. Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of thetemple from the throne, saying, “It is done.” Revelation 16:17 I can support all of those statements but for brevity's sake, haven't. I prefer the most straightforward reading of prophecy and to me, this interpretation reflects that.

A nice dialectic.

I find that a bit dubious. Where to you come up with this 5 month period that comes after 7th vial.?

That is your interpretation. We will not know for sure until it actually happens. Yes, Bopeep. That's my interpretation. Thank you.

Yeah, we've been down this road before. I even agree that the sixth seal brings an end to the great tribulation. Sorry to disappoint you though, but what I stated actually is substantiated and it's rather presumptuous for you to declare that it is not. Whether you really understand what I'm saying or agree with it is another matter. What you fail to realize is that Revelation 12-19 is not chronological to 6-11. Rev 12-19 provides additional detail to the seven seals and the seven plague angels of Rev 6-11. How can anyone read what is said about the seventh trumpet and not come to the conclusion that it speaks of the return of Christ to govern the earth? and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets. Revelation 10:6-7 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign." Revelation 11:15-17 Clearly, at the seventh trumpet, Christ is reigning and his kingdom is on earth. There's the substantiation, right there. Plain and simple. No tap dancing required. I agree, Christ reigns after the 7th Trumpet is opened. Just as Solomon began reigning after his father David caused the trumpet to sound; but this at the very same time Adonijah was being proclaimed king elsewhere. 1 Kings 1 But note, Adonijah [a type of the Beast-king] still had to be defeated quite some time afterward, along with his high priest Abiathar [a type of Satan] and his strongman Joab [a type of the False Prophet]. 1 Kings 2 There is a difference between reigning and ruling. Christ's reign will begin via a proclaimation out of heaven, but his rule will only be accomplished by earthly force, at the 7th Bowl. There will be a period of time between the two events. Note in Rev. 11:17 above, it is only the 24 elders who proclaim submission to the kingdom, not the kings of the earth; no mention is made of either their defeat or their submission for a reason. On the contrary, 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, [aorist tense both verbs: "were/has come and continue to be"] And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy [not, have already destroyed!] those who destroy the earth.” It ain't over until its over; and at this point of Revelation, is clearly ain't over yet. The 24 elders are stating a fact. Christ has begun to reign at the seventh trumpet. Technically, you could say that Christ has been reigning since His resurrection. All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Him. So, what's the difference? The seventh trumpet is not some meaningless semantic distinction. According to Rev 10:7 Christ's reigning at the seventh trumpet is as God preached to the prophets. Where did God preach to His servants about the semantics between reigning and ruling? You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:34-35 There's no "phased-in" approach mentioned here when the kingdom of God is established. It all happens at the same time, according to that prophet. At the seventh trumpet, what God preached to the prophets, the mystery of the kingdom, is finished.

I thought a clarification was necessary because we often use the same terminology but have different meanings for those terms. The great tribulation coincides with the image of the beast, the one people must worship or be put to death. That follows the conflict where three of the ten horns are uprooted by the false prophet. So there are still some sign posts. But, yes, things could cut loose anytime. Darn, there I was agreeing with everything you wrote, and then this. Sorry, LD, but this is pure unsubstantiated spec. Here is the one substantive scripture about the beginning of the GT: Mt. 24:25 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand) ...14 ...then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." Here are the two substantive scriptures about the end of the GT: Matt. 29:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Rev. 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands... 14 “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." In the order of events as given in Revelation, the Beast does not appear until chapter 13, well after the 6th Seal Rapture of chapters 6-7. "The Beast ...will ascend out of the bottomless pit," Rev. 17:8. The bottomless pit/abyss is not opened until "the fifth angel sounded [his trumpet] ...To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit..." Ergo, the Beast does not arise until after the GT has ended, and the Wrath has already begun. Yeah, we've been down this road before. I even agree that the sixth seal brings an end to the great tribulation. Sorry to disappoint you though, but what I stated actually is substantiated and it's rather presumptuous for you to declare that it is not. Whether you really understand what I'm saying or agree with it is another matter. What you fail to realize is that Revelation 12-19 is not chronological to 6-11. Rev 12-19 provides additional detail to the seven seals and the seven plague angels of Rev 6-11. How can anyone read what is said about the seventh trumpet and not come to the conclusion that it speaks of the return of Christ to govern the earth? and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets. Revelation 10:6-7 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign." Revelation 11:15-17 Clearly, at the seventh trumpet, Christ is reigning and his kingdom is on earth. There's the substantiation, right there. Plain and simple. No tap dancing required.

I thought a clarification was necessary because we often use the same terminology but have different meanings for those terms. The great tribulation coincides with the image of the beast, the one people must worship or be put to death. That follows the conflict where three of the ten horns are uprooted by the false prophet. So there are still some sign posts. But, yes, things could cut loose anytime.

I personally wouldn't limit it to New Testament saints.

Baseless rhetoric. That verse speaks nothing of a seven year anything nor Israel. You might as well have quoted a nursery rhyme. Until you realize the difference between tribulation and wrath you will continue to be confused about it. What is your stance on eschatology?Post,mid ? What is the relevance of that question? Because if you are post or mid trib you are not going to see the significance in the scripture as to the wrath of God and how those born again Christians will not go through the tribulation. Again, until you realize the difference between tribulation and wrath you will continue to be confused about it. A good place to start is by dumping those unbiblical terms that are misleading you.

Actually, there is no biblical reference to "the tribulation". That's a fabricated term that has spawned much confusion. The confusion is compounded with the addition of prefixes such as pre-, mid-, and post-. When people use the terms pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, they are passively validating the notion of an end times "the tribulation" which doesn't exist. I personally avoid those misleading terms as much as possible. Tribulation for the church began when the church began. In this world, we will have tribulation. Jesus made that quite clear. Another thing that He made clear is that there will be a time of great tribulation when the abomination of desolation (AoD) is set up. Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand) ..... For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matthew 24:15,21 There is a general tribulation that the church has always experienced to one degree or another as a result of not being of this world. And there is the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of that is associated with the AoD being set up. That's it. The great tribulation has not started.

Baseless rhetoric. That verse speaks nothing of a seven year anything nor Israel. You might as well have quoted a nursery rhyme. Until you realize the difference between tribulation and wrath you will continue to be confused about it. What is your stance on eschatology?Post,mid ? What is the relevance of that question?

Baseless rhetoric. That verse speaks nothing of a seven year anything nor Israel. You might as well have quoted a nursery rhyme. Until you realize the difference between tribulation and wrath you will continue to be confused about it.

No, its not true. Equating tribulation with judgment or wrath is a mishmash designed to support some people's convoluted eschatology. Biblical tribulation consists of persecution and trials that believers should expect to encounter while in this world. Since we are not of the world, the world hates us. A quick search in BibleGateway will bear that out. In general, a judgment is a determination that is made. Things can be judged to be true or they can be judged to be in error. God is the ultimate judge of truth and righteousness. There is no higher authority to appeal to. He has already judged certain behavior to be unrighteous. The Holy Spirit has come to convince people of such unrighteousness. People have the choice to either persist in sinful activity or agree with God's judgment that their behavior is ungodly and repent. God's wrath in the last days is for those who have ignored the conviction of the Holy Spirit and persisted in unrighteousness to the end. That's a rather simplistic overview but I think it points out the differences between the three as it pertains to the last days. tribulation results from living godly judgment results from living ungodly wrath results from persistent rejection of God's judgments

I agree that the day of the Lord lasts for more than a single day. As I see it, it begins at the seventh trumpet, when Christ takes over governance of the earth, and carries on throughout the millennium. Yes,it does. There are two references where "thief in the night" is specifically referenced in the new testament. The first is by Paul: 1Th 5:2-3 NKJV For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. (3) For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. In this specific instance there is obvious imagery of destruction being involved, presumably upon those not justified (particularly if you read forward a few verses), but I'm not going to focus on this one. Peter expounds much more specifically upon the concept: 2Pe 3:10 NKJV But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Now, you advocate a plain reading of the scriptures in this very thread and in many other posts. I agree with you wholehearted only this concept. A plain reading of this verse obviously and irrevocably associates the "day of the Lord" with coming "as a thief in the night." This seems to do one very obvious thing - it clears up any confusion on whether or not this phrase is associated with a pre-trib rapture, insofar as, unless you are willing to add perhaps 1007 years or so into a gap where the comma sits between "night" and "in" then the thief imagery is clearly associated with something other than a secret, imminent rapture. A plain reading of this seems to leave no room for a pre-trib rapture falling out of this specific scripture. Whether or not a pre-trib rapture is found elsewhere in the scriptures is a different argument (though I do not think that it is). This is likely associated, from what I can tell, with the actual passing away of the old earth and the ushering in of the new. This is further expanded upon by Peter in later verses in the same chapter: 2Pe 3:11-13 NKJV Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, (12) looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? (13) Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. We see similar imagery in the opening verses of revelation 21 (specifically regarding the "new heavens and a new earth"): Rev 21:1 NKJV Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. We aren't given direct expansion here on how the old earth passed away, but peter indicates that it is through dissolution by fire/heat, with them passing away with a great noise. This seems to fall in the period after the millennium. Due to this it is very difficult to see the thief in the night imagery being used to describe a rapture if you do a plain reading of the scripture. God bless, Steve This is the plain, most straightforward understanding of "thief in the night". I'd like to add to it what Christ said as the armies are gathering together at Armageddon. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Rev 16:15 Some say that this verse has nothing to do with the context of armies being gathered at Armageddon, that it's a general warning that just happens to be right there. I guess it's easier to say that than it is to rethink what the implications might be if it were placed there deliberately. The plain reading would suggest that the day of the Lord, which comes as a thief, is chronologically subsequent to that passage. All that is left after the sixth bowl is poured out is the seventh plague angel's trumpet and bowl, the third woe. The seventh (last) trumpet begins the day of the Lord which comes as a thief, for those in darkness. It is the blessed hope for those in the light, the resurrection / rapture. That day will extend out a thousand years.

Please explain to me why going to the marriage supper of the Lamb precludes Christ coming for and with His saints from happening in the same day? Don't you realize that at the resurrection / rapture that we will be immortal? What is time to an immortal? Time is nothing to an "immortal", but that's hardly the issue. The Scriptures that we have do NOT make a mishmash of the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ with His saints. The first appearing is "unto salvation" while the second appearing is "unto destruction" thus there is universal mourning. Everything has its time and place, but your imagined scenario would indicate that God is in some kind of hurry. And you will not find the word "resurrection" in the Olivet Discourse, since the gathering of the elect there is the supernatural gathering of living and believing Jews from all over the world. All the OT prophecies pertaining to this speak of those who are alive and and gathered to the land of Israel. The only way not to make a mishmash of Scripture is to read it literally. If you would, please post a picture of the armor of God that you wear to the grocery store. I'm particularly interested in seeing your helmet of salvation.

Please explain to me why going to the marriage supper of the Lamb precludes Christ coming for and with His saints from happening in the same day? Don't you realize that at the resurrection / rapture that we will be immortal? What is time to an immortal? Time is nothing to an "immortal", but that's hardly the issue. The Scriptures that we have do NOT make a mishmash of the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ with His saints. The first appearing is "unto salvation" while the second appearing is "unto destruction" thus there is universal mourning. Everything has its time and place, but your imagined scenario would indicate that God is in some kind of hurry. And you will not find the word "resurrection" in the Olivet Discourse, since the gathering of the elect there is the supernatural gathering of living and believing Jews from all over the world. All the OT prophecies pertaining to this speak of those who are alive and and gathered to the land of Israel. Then we can agree that the marriage supper of the Lamb does not preclude the resurrection / rapture from happening on the same day that Christ comes with His saints since time is nothing to an immortal. Good. You obviously don't understand my "imagined scneario" or you wouldn't have come to the conclusion that it shows that God is in some kind of hurry. That's clearly your perception of something you haven't taken the time to reason through. If you can't see that the resurrection happens at Christ's coming and that His coming is in Matthew 24:30 then there's nothing more that can be said. It just doesn't get any more obvious than that. The fact that the word "resurrection" isn't specifically used is irrelevant. You really should move beyond rhetoric and support what you say with scripture.

Please explain to me why going to the marriage supper of the Lamb precludes Christ coming for and with His saints from happening in the same day? Don't you realize that at the resurrection / rapture that we will be immortal? What is time to an immortal?

One would have to force the Resurrection/Rapture into the Olivet Discourse to come up with this conclusion. There is NOT A HINT of any resurrection whatsoever in Matthew 24. The Rapture is strictly related to the Church, and the Church was neither in existence at that time, nor in view in this passage. That would have been premature and confusing to the apostles at that point. Context is everything. We always seem to forget that God has a plan for the Church and another plan for redeemed and restored Israel on earth. Once we get a grasp of that, there is absolutely no confusion. The Second Coming of Christ include God's direct dealings with the nation of Israel. You can not separate the resurrection from the rapture. It is a one-time event that happens when Christ returns. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:16-17 Concerning the resurrection, i.e. being raised immortal: But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23 See there when the resurrection / rapture happens? Now lets look at Matthew 24. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Matthew 24:30-31 Please explain to me how "there is NOT A HINT of any resurrection whatsoever in Matthew 24." the resurrection and the rapture can not be separated. 1Thess 4:16-17the resurrection / rapture happens at Christ's coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23Christ's coming is stated in Matthew 24:30We always seem to forget that what is plainly stated in scripture should take precedence over any bias. We should let scripture interpret scripture. Once we get a grasp of that, there is absolutely no confusion. Sorry to stray a bit from the OP, Omegaman. Some assumptions just beg to be challenged.

1. However, the disciples very likely knew about the resurrection on the last day. Martha knew it as well. John 11:24 He wasn't discussing the rapture in Matthew 24. He was discussing the resurrection / rapture. You can't separate the two. It's all part of changing to immortality those who belong to Christ; the dead in Christ are resurrected first, then those who are alive are changed. The fact that the mystery of being changed was revealed later is irrelevant. It's all part of our gathering together to Him on the day of the Lord. 2. Those two references are not mutually exclusive. One follows the other. First, Christ descends with a shout and changes to immortal all those who are His. Then, the angels go forth throughout all heaven and earth to gather the newly immortal together....for the marriage supper. There is absolutely no conflict between those two passages. They compliment each other and talk of the same event. Motive has a lot to do with how we approach the subject.

Well said Omegaman v3.0! The day of the Lord, which is our gathering together to Him (resurrection / rapture) clearly happens after that significant prophetic sign. That sign is associated with the sixth seal. By the way, I don't have access to the pdf.

Interesting take on that passage. Personally the way verse 15 reads to me is as a warning interjected into the overall passage, not directly related to the event. There are other similar passages in the NT as well that are used in a similar fashion as warnings. As for the rapture I see it happening at the 7th trump (Rev 11:15) before the vials are poured out. Chapter 14 verses 14-16 expound upon this event just before the vials begin to be poured out in chapter 15. Also I correlate the 7th trump to the last trump that Paul refers to in 1Cor 15:52, as well as other related verses such as "a great sound of a trumpet" in Matt 24:31 which to me are in reference to the rapture. Verse 15, when Christ says that He's coming like a thief, is sandwiched between two directly related passages. Are you saying that v15 has nothing to do with the context, that it is randomly inserted there and has no bearing on the chronology of that passage? If so, then what is the specific basis for that? It would take a very specific precedent, preferably two, for me to interpret v15 as being irrelevant to the context. I agree that the resurrection / rapture coincides with the seventh trumpet. The seventh trumpet is the return of Christ. But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Revelation 10:7 What is the mystery of God that's finished? And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God. Mark 4:11a This can be seen by what is said in heaven when the seventh trumpet sounds: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:15 When the seventh trumpet sounds, Christ descends with the clouds for the resurrection / rapture. He then physically returns and establishes His kingdom and begins His governance of earth for 1000 years. Revelation chapters 12-19 are not chronologically subsequent to chapters 6-11. They give additional details about the events of 6-11. The seven vials are related to the seven trumpets. A trumpet begins a plague and a vial brings it to its completion or fullness. There are seven plague angels and each angel is given a trumpet and a bowl. And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. Revelation 15:6-7 The seven angels already had the seven plagues (trumpets) and were then given seven vials. When you compare the trumpets with their corresponding numbered vials, you'll see a striking correlation. I have no doubt they are related. The only vial that comes after the seventh trumpet is the seventh vial, on the same day, the day of the Lord, when Christ descends to earth for the slaughter of Armageddon.

How do you correlate the sixth seal with Jesus coming in the clouds? What is your scriptural basis for that statement? I did touch on that in my op. "There is very similar language in verses 12-13 of Rev. 6 to that of other references to Jesus' return at the end of the GT such as Matt. 24:29." If you need more scriptures along these lines there are several. The sixth seal is where I'll start. This seal has two events happening. The first is at the end of the GT when Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven to rapture His saints, etc. How do you correlate the sixth seal with Jesus coming in the clouds? What is your scriptural basis for that statement? I did touch on that in my op. "There is very similar language in verses 12-13 of Rev. 6 to that of other references to Jesus' return at the end of the GT such as Matt. 24:29." If you need more scriptures along these lines there are several. I do agree that Matthew 24:29 correlates to the sixth seal and part of v30 does too. If you look carefully at verses 29-31 you'll notice that two things are seen. But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Matthew 24:29-31 The first thing that is seen is the sign of the Son of Man. This sign can be inferred by what the people of the sixth seal say. And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. Revelation 6:16 The sky is rolled back and people catch a glimpse into the spiritual realm. What they see is reminiscent of the throne room scene in Rev 5. There is no mention in the sixth seal of Christ returning in the clouds. Christ returning in the clouds to gather the elect who are resurrected / raptured happens at a later point. When you look at all of the scriptures that talk of that event, the straightforward interpretation with direct scriptural support is that it happens at the seventh trumpet. That would break up Matthew 24:29-31 into two sections, one that happens at the sixth seal, and another that happens at the seventh trumpet. But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky --- corresponds to the sixth seal [months pass] and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. --- corresponds to the seventh trumpet Why would Jesus jump from the sixth seal to the seventh trumpet? Because he is giving signs for the believers to recognize concerning His return. What lies between the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet are the first six trumpets which are judgments for those who have aligned themselves with the false prophet. They are not signs that a believer would encounter or expect to see Those are good points and certainly possibilities. I'm inclined to think that Matt 24:29-31 is one event, but that's just how I see it. The resurrection / rapture, which is our gathering together to Him, happens on the day of the Lord, which comes like a thief in the night after the armies gather at Armageddon. That's the most simple, straightforward read of the passages related to our resurrection / change unto immortality. And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Revelation 16:12-16 Apparently, the resurrection / rapture is an event that is still future to the sixth bowl. It can't be tied to the sixth seal. The two things that are seen in Matt 24:29-31 are distinctly different. The time lapse between them is however long it takes for the first six plague angels to carry out their trumpets and bowls, months and possibly a couple of year as I see it. That's the straightforward read anyway, and the one I prefer. It doesn't require any fabricated terminology or creative duplicity.