Last Daze

I see numerology as being meaningless, if that's what you're talking about. You can essentially extrapolate a number or set of numbers to mean anything. Without any "rules" or "givens" you're basically adrift, left to your own imagination.

I guess that I don't see how any group of nations can qualify for the 10 horns based on the description of them in the original post, primarily, "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour." Revelation 17:12. I see it more as a covert group of 10 that are associated with nations or nation groups that plan to rule economically. Their reign is short due to the false prophet usurping their authority.

30 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke. 31 “The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 32 “And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the Lord has said, Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls. Joel 2:30-32

Thanks for the perspective. Its always good to hear how someone outside the country sees things. I've been thinking about the role of Islam in the end times, what it might be. This may be a long shot but...after the false prophet (antichrist) issues the "worship the image or die" ultimatum there are going to be a lot (millions in my estimation) of people around the world who are going to be beheaded (per the fifth seal). I can just hear the false prophet asking if there are any volunteers to behead these infidels? To which he gets a resounding, "That's what we do best!". Of course, that's speculation, but the task is going to fall to someone. I guess we'll see as things unfold.

I agree. The U.N. / NYC consideration is based on the assumption that we are quite close to a seven year agreement. I think the "model" still applies and that the 10 horns will manipulate it to achieve an economic infrastructure whereby they control the world's finances. Then they no longer have need of it so they destroy its capital, wherever it is, to demonstrate that they are now in control.

It uses the present tense in a future context. Rev 17:17 says of the ten horns: For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose. Did that happen in the first century? I see it as relative to the context of a future event. Concerning Rome... Why are there two different prophecies in Daniel that talk about the same thing? I believe its because they have a different emphasis. The great statue seems to emphasize more the physical nature of the kingdoms by the materials used to describe them and their succession. The prophecy of the four beasts is more from the perspective of the demonic influence used to grant dominion to the kingdoms. Let me explain: the fourth kingdom in the great statue is seen as two separate and distinct things, legs of iron, and feet of an iron and clay mix. The fourth kingdom in Daniel 7 is seen as one beast. From a natural standpoint, the legs of iron can only be seen as a separate kingdom from the feet of iron and clay. The reason they are described as the fourth kingdom and not the fourth and fifth kingdoms is because they both come into existence as a result of the fourth beast in Daniel 7. Geography is not a factor. The common denominator is their origin, the demonic prince. The "legs of iron" was largely European. The "feet of iron and clay" will be global. The feet of iron and clay depict a conglomerate of nations. This group of nations undergoes a transformation when the ten horns destroy it's headquarters, the city which reigns over the kings of the earth. That's why I don't think Rome plays a major role. Concerning Papal Rome/Europe... I've seen a lot of people trying to pin the "Babylon" tail on the "Catholic" donkey. They should think more "big picture". Its my understanding that the term "Babylon" is used to describe rebellion against God, or practicing ungodliness. The tower of Babel was built in order to keep from being scattered when God said to fill the earth. God came down and saw what they had built, confused their language, and they were scattered. Its believed that the tower of Babel was used as a center of all kinds of ungodliness. Years later Babylon likewise gained a reputation as a center of great ungodliness and the term "Babylon" became an easy reference for such a city. Referring to a city allegorically isn't uncommon as in Revelation 11:8. Peter also did it in a likely reference to Rome in 1 Peter 5:13. I know there are many interpretations of Mystery Babylon. Whatever your understanding, make sure it includes this: "And in her [babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.” Revelation 18:24 I'm curious as to how you came to the conclusion of:

I have some thoughts on the world's capital that I'd like some feedback on. These thoughts are based on the seven headed, ten horned beast being a demon and the false prophet being a human aka Antichrist. The ten horns of the seven-headed, ten-horned beast are described as such: "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour." Revelation 17:12. What do they do during their short reign? " And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire." Revelation 17:16 And who is this harlot that they destroy? "The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.” Revelation 17:18 There are some interesting observations to make here especially when you tie in the prophecy of the four beasts in Daniel 7: The ten horns are not heads of state i.e. they have not yet received a kingdom. The ten horns have acquired weapons of mass destruction because they are capable of destroying an entire city with fire. A world government is already in place when the ten horns have their short moment of glory. I say that because there's a world capital, a city that reigns over the kings of the earth. Bring in what we know from Daniel 7 and we can also add the following observations: A small horn comes up among the ten horns and uproots (subdues) three of them. Daniel 7:8 The small horn becomes larger (more powerful) than the other horns after he subdues the three. Daniel 7:20 Based on this, I think its reasonable to conclude the following: The ten horns work behind the scenes to gain control of the world. At some point, they announce their takeover and destroy the world's capital. Shortly thereafter, the false prophet nullifies their authority. That doesn't sit well with them and three of them bring forces to bear against him. He subdues them. Knowing that there is an economic aspect to the end times, i.e. the mark required to buy and sell, the takeover by the ten horns will likely be a takeover of the world's economies. This would explain how ten "non heads of state" could control the world and how their authority could easily be usurped by one person. The world's capital is described as: And he said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues." Revelation 17:15 "'for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance, and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’" Revelation 18:17-18 Based on these verses, the world's capital is a port city that appears to be a melting pot of sorts. I've been considering the notion that the final world government starts off as the feet of iron and clay in the prophecy of the great statue in Daniel 2, an imagery that could easily describe the current U.N. which would make the world's capital New York City. Thoughts?

Thanks you two for your thoughts on the subject. While I still think the trio consists of Satan, the demonic prince of Rome, and the false prophet/Antichrist (demon, demon, human), I'll keep what you've told me here in mind.

Again, is there any precedent for kingdoms coming up out of the abyss or being thrown into the lake of fire, any mention of it in the Bible? There is for demons being cast into and released from the abyss. That's why I identify the beast from the sea as a demon and not a human or kingdom or anything else. I understand the symbolism of Daniel 7 and agree that it is reflected in the description of that beast, along with the seven heads and ten horns of Satan. We know from Daniel 10 that certain kingdoms are influenced into a position of dominion by certain demons. The symbology in Rev 13:1 reflects the involvement of Satan and the first three beasts in Daniel 7. The same demon that caused Rome to exercise dominion is the one that comes up out of the sea. His kingdom starts off as the feet of iron and clay and then at some point, ten leaders briefly take over, followed by the rise of the false prophet (Antichrist). Whether freemasonry will be involved or not, I have no idea.

Because you haven't supported your assumption that "no flesh shall be judged before the end of the 1000 years", an assumption that has led to at least these four points (if I understand what you're saying correctly) which you've also not provided support for: Kingdoms rise up out of the abyss. Kingdoms will be cast into the lake of fire. The role that a demon may take on is an entity that is separate and distinct from the demon. Such "role" will be cast into the lake of fire. When an interpretation is offered that isn't supported I find that problematic.

Again, is there any scripture that would preclude the judgment of a human (false prophet) at the return of Christ and and have him thrown immediately into the lake of fire...something to the effect of "no human shall enter the lake of fire until after the 1000 years"? Now THAT would be a hard biblical fact we could rely on. The mere omission of it does not make it a fact by any means. Revelation 19:11 reads: "And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war." Clearly He is a righteous executioner and judge and if he sees fit to judge the human false prophet on the spot and cast him into the lake of fire then that's what he'll do, and the way I see it, that's what he does. What there's no scripture to show is a kingdom coming up out of the abyss, or a role or kingdom getting tossed into the lake of fire, at least I haven't found any. Why do you not think that a demon could use a human to channel supernatural power? Something supernatural was going on in Egypt about plague time with their magicians. The fact that it hasn't happened in a while doesn't mean that it can't happen again. The demonic prince from the abyss is given a mouthpiece, the false prophet. The false prophet performs great signs and wonders in the presence of the demon prince, a point made three times. Sounds like channelling to me.

Thanks for your thoughts on the subject Salty. Daniel 10 gives us a glimpse into the anatomy of certain kingdoms. I think this applies to at least the four beast kingdoms in Daniel 7 and probably the seven heads of the dragon, Satan, as well. There are certain demons, the prince of Persia, prince of Greece, etc. that grant dominion to earthly kingdoms. Daniel 7:12 indicates that there's a "dominion" that's separate from the kingdom. So you have...demon comes on the scene...earthly kingdom forms...demon is taken away...earthly kingdom starts its decline. At some point, the prince of Rome was taken away and cast into the abyss, a holding place of demons. I see Revelation 13:1 as this demon coming back up out of the abyss. Since all of the deception of wickedness is brought to bear in the last days, its reasonable to assume that the demon princes of Babylon, Persia, and Greece will all be involved. The symbology of this beast (Rev 13:2) having seven heads and ten horns and characteristics of the first three beasts in Daniel 7 indicates their involvement. Satan gives this beast his power, throne and great authority (symbolized by the 7 heads and 10 horns); the demon princes likewise give what they have (symbolized by the mix of animals). I think that's why this beast(kingdom) is described in Daniel 7 as different from the rest, dreadful, terrifying, and extremely strong. The only reason that I can think of why Satan would ever give such to anyone at anytime is that this demon is in a unique place to influence world affairs and Satan realizes that his time is short; he basically has no other choice. It's an "all-in" situation. I see the sea that this beast comes up out of as different from the "waters" that the harlot sits on. The sea, because of its seemingly endless depth would be a fitting metaphor for the abyss. Compare Romans 10:6,7 with Deuteronomy 30:12,13. The comparison, while not an exact parallel, is compelling. The "sea" and the "waters" are mentioned in two different contexts as well. The first (Rev 13:1) I see as where the demon is coming up out of the abyss. The second (Rev 17) is in reference to the harlot and her judgment. While I believe that they are the same beast, the descriptions vary slightly which I believe is for contextual emphesis. That's why I feel that the "waters" is different from the "sea". One of the differences between Satan's 7/10 and the beast's 7/10 is that Satan's crowns are on the 7 heads and the beast's crowns are on the 10 horns. The seven heads are seven mountains (kingdoms) and seven kings per Rev 17. I see this as seven risings of demonic influence and seven resulting kingships. Its not unusual for mountains to describe kingdoms, as in the great statue (Daniel 2:35,44). Satan, being the grand poobah of demons, expresses his authority through these seven heads (kingdoms) and thus the crowns. The beast from the sea works through ten leaders to demonstrate his authority by destroy the world's capital per Rev 17 so that's why he has crowns on the horns. Then there's the beast that comes up out of the earth. He exercises all the authority of the beast from the abyss with a qualifier..."in his presence". Coming out of the earth seems to indicate that he's a human, and performing great signs and wonders in the presence of the first beast indicates that he's a channel for supernatural displays of power. Like you, I also see this beast as the false prophet. I also see him as the man of sin in 2 Thess 2, and who people refer to as the Antichrist. I know that the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels per Matt 25:41, and like you mentioned, after the thousand year reign of Christ the "goats" are cast into the lake of fire. But what would preclude a human (the false prophet) from being judged at the return of Christ and cast immediately into the lake of fire? We're not talking about an ordinary, run of the mill human after all. He would be a "first fruits" of sorts. I've never heard of "roles" or "kingdoms" going into the lake of fire. Roles seem a bit abstract. The demons responsible for the rise of kingdoms going into the lake of fire I can grasp, but the kingdoms themselves I've not heard of. I know there's not a lot of info on demons in the Bible and we're left to fill in some blanks but I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

Thanks. I've edited the original post.

Since God is not willing that any should perish, I see Joel 2:32 as applicable as long as one has breath. “And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered..." Granted, it's not likely that many will see through the strong delusion but I think its possible.

Never meant to insinuate that I controlled the thread. Just some thoughts for trying to keep it relevent and on-topic. Obviously, people can do whatever.

My "rules" for posting only pertain to this thread, of course. I just find that it helps keep things relevant to the topic. I don't see them as unreasonable but if you do, let me know. Its true that I'm new to this forum but not to forums. I know that there's not a lot of info on demons in the Bible but is there anywhere that supports that they are disembodied spirits of nephilim?

Links etc would be welcomed if I had a question. I was more interested in discussion. When someone can state their viewpoint in their own words and provide support it shows they've put some thought in it and it tends to be a more focused discussion. I've not heard of a kingdom coming up out of the abyss. Is there any support for that?

I've always read and heard that the trio of evil (the red dragon, the beast from the sea, and the beast from the earth) found in Revelation 12 and 13 correlate to Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet respectively. This would mean that the trio is made up of a demon, a human, and another human. The red dragon is clearly identified as Satan in Revelation 12:9. The beast from the sea (with 7 heads and 10 horns) is described by John in Revelation 17:8. It says that that the beast was and is not and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. That description indicates that at some point before John was given the revelation, the beast "was" (actively doing things). At the time of the revelation, the beast "is not" (actively doing things) with the natural inference being because he was cast into the abyss. I say that because at some point he comes up out of the abyss. Based on that description, I have difficulty seeing how the beast from the sea can be a human. He would have had to have existed in the first century or before. Also, references to the abyss found in the Bible indicate that it's a holding place or prison for demons. Luke 8:30-32 Revelation 20:2-3 If the beast from the sea comes up out of the abyss, how can he be a human? We know from Daniel 10 that there are certain demons that influence governments i.e. the prince of Persia, the prince of Greece. It's reasonable to assume that there is also a prince of Rome, a demon that caused the Roman Empire to exercise dominion. It could be that this demon, the prince of Rome, caused Roman greatness and at some point was thrown into the abyss to be held until his release in the end times. This seems to be a better fit for the beast from the sea than a human. It would also explain the need for a "mouthpiece". I see the trio of evil correlating to Satan, "the prince of Rome", and the false prophet (Antichrist) making it a demon, another demon, and a human. I would be interested in any scripturally based thoughts on the subject. Please don't link in websites or copy+paste info. Always provide a scriptural basis and limit speculation.

I'm amazed at all the attention that the teaching of the rapture receives. I think we can all agree that we are not destined for wrath, however, in the world we will have tribulation. Essentially it boils down to semantics and definitions. What I see as more important than pinpointing when the rapture will happen is understanding what those days are like from a political, economic, social, religious standpoint. Its a matter being ready as Salty mentioned. Be prepared for the worst case scenario and you're prepared for every lesser scenario.

I've heard from several different sources that the NASB (New American Standard Bible) is the most accurate word-for-word translation but I'm not a Hebrew / Greek scholar by any means.