Last Daze

Was wondering if you could clarify that a little bit please. Is the "mouth" the false prophet? Is the beast from the sea a human? Could you elaborate?

And I do wish that day were hastened.

I could see where the two witnesses could be viewed as the "Moses and Aaron" of the end times. By that I mean they could, in addition to shutting the sky, call out the false prophet and pronounce the plagues on his kingdom. The conditions before they are killed will be so oppressive. I imagine that things start to return to normal after their death, which is reason enough for gift-giving. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

I think the mark has a dual purpose. Its required to buy and sell, and its used to identify those who resist the false prophet's rule...for beheading purposes. I could see separatist groups bartering or establishing their own currency but not having the mark will flag them for death. Hard money could still exist but rendered worthless unless you exchange it for "electronic credits".

I think its no secret that I see the false prophet as the Antichrist. I prefer to call him the false prophet since that's how he's referred to in Revelation. I usually put (antichrist) after false prophet for clarification. I think he's a man (coming up out of the earth) that is empowered by the demonic prince (beast that comes out of the sea) to display wonders and call fire down from heaven and deceive all those who dwell on the earth, except for the saints. being a man, the coming up out of the earth part I can't get a grasp on..... I just see it as a reference to man...Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground...in contrast to a demon.

I think its no secret that I see the false prophet as the Antichrist. I prefer to call him the false prophet since that's how he's referred to in Revelation. I usually put (antichrist) after false prophet for clarification. I think he's a man (coming up out of the earth) that is empowered by the demonic prince (beast that comes out of the sea) to display wonders and call fire down from heaven and deceive all those who dwell on the earth, except for the saints.

We're not too far apart in our understanding. I'd substitute United Nations for Great Britain though. Time will tell.

I think there are only 7 kingdoms, otherwise I would have expected 8 heads. I realize that its somewhat ambiguous but the way I see the "is an eighth king and is of the seven" reference is this: The beast being referred to is a demon because he comes up out of the abyss. When he is released from the abyss he starts to manipulate world events to bring his "feet of iron and clay" multinational kingdom into power. (I relate this to the first seal and feel that its been underway for a while.) Since there is no real "king" or no real single position of authority of this multinational group that he brought about, the demon is himself, by default, considered an "eighth" since he basically rules it. After the ten horns destroy the world's capital, the false prophet (antichrist) takes away their authority and declares himself ruler, becoming the seventh, thanks to the demonic beast. I'm not terribly dogmatic about that but it seems to fit with everything else as I see it.

I agree. He took Lot and family out of Sodom, He had Noah build an ark, the Israelites sheltered in place. Three different ways. Why not a fourth? I personally believe in a 6th seal rapture but, as you say, God will protect us.

I'm not excluding Jerusalem as a possibility. My understanding of prophecy has evolved over the past 35 years and I expect, as we get closer, that it will continue. I will adjust the way I understand prophecy when I feel that a viewpoint is better substantiated than one I presently have. While I feel that there is better support for a different city, I don't disregard what you've posted. I keep it in mind. If I err in my understanding of prophecy then may the Holy Spirit lead me into the truth and show me the things to come.

Why do you think I'm in love with Jerusalem? Because I don't think it's Babylon? I've never equated salvation with Jerusalem. I don't think I've even heard that message. I just don't think its Babylon. That's all. What concerns me is that if NYC is that city when the seven year agreement is made then there will only be 3-3.5 years to evangelize that city before it's destruction...based on the way I see things. This post is for thoughts on the idea.

I agree that Jerusalem is significant in end times prophecy with the false prophet (antichrist) being there along with the two witnesses, the temple, etc. but identifying it as Babylon is a strained interpretation in my opinion for the following reasons: The initial symbolism of Babylon in Rev 17 is the great harlot riding the beast from the sea. The angel then begins to tell John the mystery of the harlot by explaining the symbolism. Another angel then comes down from heaven in Rev 18 and continues with a detailed description of what can only be described as a port city of tremendous commerce and wealth. I don't think that explaining symbolism with more symbolism is really an explanation. I agree that the 10 horns in Daniel and Revelation are referring to the same 10 kings. In Daniel, what the "small horn" does is described as: "and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it", "and before which three of them fell"; and "and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings." In order to subdue, or bring under control, there has to be an uprising. Three of the horns fell, not only fell, but were pulled out by the roots. I see that as the three horns bringing forces to bear against the false prophet and him calling down fire from heaven and destroying them. The other seven see that and say “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” Regime change. At any rate, the first three are gone so the "great city" must of necessity have already been destroyed before the false prophet comes on the scene. If the ten horns really reign for forty-two months, why does it say an hour? Why not just come out and say forty-two months or time, times and half a time? Its made clear in other places. Why obfuscate this one? Reinterpreting specific time durations is a slippery slope that I want to avoid. If the 10 horns reign for one hour (forty two months) and they destroy Jerusalem (Babylon) in one hour (forty-two months) ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’ then Jerusalem is on fire for forty-two months while the false prophet is ruling from there? That doesn't make sense to me. The "waters" in Rev 17:15 is in a completely different context from the "sea" of Rev 13:1. I don't see anything that relates them to being the same thing. If anything, I think the beast that comes up out of the sea is a contrast to the beast that comes up out of the earth indicating that the first is a demon and the second is a human. On a side note...I was recently comparing the ten horns as described in Revelation 17 with the ten horns of the fourth beast in Daniel 7 and noticed something that I thought might be of interest. Revelation 17:13 says that the ten horns have one purpose and they give their power and authority to the beast that comes up out of the abyss. This is reiterated and expounded upon four verses later in Revelation 17:17. It says that God put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose and by giving their kingdom to the beast. Compare that to Daniel 7:24 where it says that another horn arises after the ten and will pull three of them out by the roots. This seems to indicate that the beast from the abyss in Revelation 17 is different from the horn that arises after the ten in Daniel 7. If they were the same, then why would three of them need to be subdued? They have a common purpose and they give their kingdom to the beast. God put it in their hearts to do so.

The reason no one can provide a verse is because there is not one verse in the Holy Bible that directly says that a spirit devil man shall be born into human flesh; if there was then "other one" could have pointed me to it. And what this means is that the Antichrist Translation is pure conjecture, based upon people's assumed interpretation of very unclear verses. And to give the few verses that are used more support and strength they cut them out of Biblical context and paste them together, and then people are taught that the all of the verses that speak of some sinful man near the end of the world are referring to a spirit devil man in the State of Israel. The fact is, the Antichrist Translation is a teaching that separates verses from many unclear writings about the end times (parables), and then they are all pasted together to form a translation. But this is not good. It would be better to wait for those End Time parables to be unveiled all together. Is it really good Biblical practice to cut and paste verses from writings that are little understood? I think not. So what I am saying is that the Antichrist teaching is all guesswork, based upon verses that have been cut and pasted together--parables that had not been unveiled. The parables are pasted together into a scenario, and that scenario has a spirit devil man appearing out of thin air to fulfill that scenario. It is all manmade guesswork! Source: endtimesalert.com Why don't you expound upon what you're talking about because at this point, I really don't have a clue. Some scripture references would be nice as well.

I see numerology as being meaningless, if that's what you're talking about. You can essentially extrapolate a number or set of numbers to mean anything. Without any "rules" or "givens" you're basically adrift, left to your own imagination.

I guess that I don't see how any group of nations can qualify for the 10 horns based on the description of them in the original post, primarily, "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour." Revelation 17:12. I see it more as a covert group of 10 that are associated with nations or nation groups that plan to rule economically. Their reign is short due to the false prophet usurping their authority.

30 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke. 31 “The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 32 “And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the Lord has said, Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls. Joel 2:30-32

Thanks for the perspective. Its always good to hear how someone outside the country sees things. I've been thinking about the role of Islam in the end times, what it might be. This may be a long shot but...after the false prophet (antichrist) issues the "worship the image or die" ultimatum there are going to be a lot (millions in my estimation) of people around the world who are going to be beheaded (per the fifth seal). I can just hear the false prophet asking if there are any volunteers to behead these infidels? To which he gets a resounding, "That's what we do best!". Of course, that's speculation, but the task is going to fall to someone. I guess we'll see as things unfold.

I agree. The U.N. / NYC consideration is based on the assumption that we are quite close to a seven year agreement. I think the "model" still applies and that the 10 horns will manipulate it to achieve an economic infrastructure whereby they control the world's finances. Then they no longer have need of it so they destroy its capital, wherever it is, to demonstrate that they are now in control.

It uses the present tense in a future context. Rev 17:17 says of the ten horns: For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose. Did that happen in the first century? I see it as relative to the context of a future event. Concerning Rome... Why are there two different prophecies in Daniel that talk about the same thing? I believe its because they have a different emphasis. The great statue seems to emphasize more the physical nature of the kingdoms by the materials used to describe them and their succession. The prophecy of the four beasts is more from the perspective of the demonic influence used to grant dominion to the kingdoms. Let me explain: the fourth kingdom in the great statue is seen as two separate and distinct things, legs of iron, and feet of an iron and clay mix. The fourth kingdom in Daniel 7 is seen as one beast. From a natural standpoint, the legs of iron can only be seen as a separate kingdom from the feet of iron and clay. The reason they are described as the fourth kingdom and not the fourth and fifth kingdoms is because they both come into existence as a result of the fourth beast in Daniel 7. Geography is not a factor. The common denominator is their origin, the demonic prince. The "legs of iron" was largely European. The "feet of iron and clay" will be global. The feet of iron and clay depict a conglomerate of nations. This group of nations undergoes a transformation when the ten horns destroy it's headquarters, the city which reigns over the kings of the earth. That's why I don't think Rome plays a major role. Concerning Papal Rome/Europe... I've seen a lot of people trying to pin the "Babylon" tail on the "Catholic" donkey. They should think more "big picture". Its my understanding that the term "Babylon" is used to describe rebellion against God, or practicing ungodliness. The tower of Babel was built in order to keep from being scattered when God said to fill the earth. God came down and saw what they had built, confused their language, and they were scattered. Its believed that the tower of Babel was used as a center of all kinds of ungodliness. Years later Babylon likewise gained a reputation as a center of great ungodliness and the term "Babylon" became an easy reference for such a city. Referring to a city allegorically isn't uncommon as in Revelation 11:8. Peter also did it in a likely reference to Rome in 1 Peter 5:13. I know there are many interpretations of Mystery Babylon. Whatever your understanding, make sure it includes this: "And in her [babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.” Revelation 18:24 I'm curious as to how you came to the conclusion of:

I have some thoughts on the world's capital that I'd like some feedback on. These thoughts are based on the seven headed, ten horned beast being a demon and the false prophet being a human aka Antichrist. The ten horns of the seven-headed, ten-horned beast are described as such: "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour." Revelation 17:12. What do they do during their short reign? " And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire." Revelation 17:16 And who is this harlot that they destroy? "The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.” Revelation 17:18 There are some interesting observations to make here especially when you tie in the prophecy of the four beasts in Daniel 7: The ten horns are not heads of state i.e. they have not yet received a kingdom. The ten horns have acquired weapons of mass destruction because they are capable of destroying an entire city with fire. A world government is already in place when the ten horns have their short moment of glory. I say that because there's a world capital, a city that reigns over the kings of the earth. Bring in what we know from Daniel 7 and we can also add the following observations: A small horn comes up among the ten horns and uproots (subdues) three of them. Daniel 7:8 The small horn becomes larger (more powerful) than the other horns after he subdues the three. Daniel 7:20 Based on this, I think its reasonable to conclude the following: The ten horns work behind the scenes to gain control of the world. At some point, they announce their takeover and destroy the world's capital. Shortly thereafter, the false prophet nullifies their authority. That doesn't sit well with them and three of them bring forces to bear against him. He subdues them. Knowing that there is an economic aspect to the end times, i.e. the mark required to buy and sell, the takeover by the ten horns will likely be a takeover of the world's economies. This would explain how ten "non heads of state" could control the world and how their authority could easily be usurped by one person. The world's capital is described as: And he said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues." Revelation 17:15 "'for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance, and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’" Revelation 18:17-18 Based on these verses, the world's capital is a port city that appears to be a melting pot of sorts. I've been considering the notion that the final world government starts off as the feet of iron and clay in the prophecy of the great statue in Daniel 2, an imagery that could easily describe the current U.N. which would make the world's capital New York City. Thoughts?

Thanks you two for your thoughts on the subject. While I still think the trio consists of Satan, the demonic prince of Rome, and the false prophet/Antichrist (demon, demon, human), I'll keep what you've told me here in mind.

Again, is there any precedent for kingdoms coming up out of the abyss or being thrown into the lake of fire, any mention of it in the Bible? There is for demons being cast into and released from the abyss. That's why I identify the beast from the sea as a demon and not a human or kingdom or anything else. I understand the symbolism of Daniel 7 and agree that it is reflected in the description of that beast, along with the seven heads and ten horns of Satan. We know from Daniel 10 that certain kingdoms are influenced into a position of dominion by certain demons. The symbology in Rev 13:1 reflects the involvement of Satan and the first three beasts in Daniel 7. The same demon that caused Rome to exercise dominion is the one that comes up out of the sea. His kingdom starts off as the feet of iron and clay and then at some point, ten leaders briefly take over, followed by the rise of the false prophet (Antichrist). Whether freemasonry will be involved or not, I have no idea.

Because you haven't supported your assumption that "no flesh shall be judged before the end of the 1000 years", an assumption that has led to at least these four points (if I understand what you're saying correctly) which you've also not provided support for: Kingdoms rise up out of the abyss. Kingdoms will be cast into the lake of fire. The role that a demon may take on is an entity that is separate and distinct from the demon. Such "role" will be cast into the lake of fire. When an interpretation is offered that isn't supported I find that problematic.

Again, is there any scripture that would preclude the judgment of a human (false prophet) at the return of Christ and and have him thrown immediately into the lake of fire...something to the effect of "no human shall enter the lake of fire until after the 1000 years"? Now THAT would be a hard biblical fact we could rely on. The mere omission of it does not make it a fact by any means. Revelation 19:11 reads: "And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war." Clearly He is a righteous executioner and judge and if he sees fit to judge the human false prophet on the spot and cast him into the lake of fire then that's what he'll do, and the way I see it, that's what he does. What there's no scripture to show is a kingdom coming up out of the abyss, or a role or kingdom getting tossed into the lake of fire, at least I haven't found any. Why do you not think that a demon could use a human to channel supernatural power? Something supernatural was going on in Egypt about plague time with their magicians. The fact that it hasn't happened in a while doesn't mean that it can't happen again. The demonic prince from the abyss is given a mouthpiece, the false prophet. The false prophet performs great signs and wonders in the presence of the demon prince, a point made three times. Sounds like channelling to me.