Rev2015

Here are some of the verses in Revelation revealing the descriptions and actions of the 24 elders John saw in the throne room of heaven. Study the verses thoroughly and then give your opinion to the questions below. From these verses can we determine who these 24 elders are? Are they men, angels, or other eternal beings? What specific verse may reveal the answer? Revelation:4 4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation:5 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Revelation:7 3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Here are some of the verses in Revelation revealing the descriptions and actions of the 24 elders John saw in the throne room of heaven. Study the verses thoroughly and then give your opinion to the questions below. From these verses can we determine who these 24 elders are? Are they men, angels, or other eternal beings? What specific verse may reveal the answer? Revelation:4 4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation:5 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Revelation:7 3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Christ described end time events transpiring as a woman in travail about to give birth. With this analogy we can surmise several things. One, the events will happen like contractions, they will start mild and apart, and as time goes on they will happen more frequent and become more severe with each contraction, until they are one upon another until the end of the events. There is also, in any birth, an event that when it takes place in the birthing process, there is no looking back, no stopping what transpires afterwards, …and that event is, when the water breaks. I can only assume in Christ’s analogy of these end time events that there will be one specific event that will transpire, that will initiate the beginning of the travail/birth and once this event takes place the tribulation years will follow and the seal, trumpet, bowl of wrath judgments will be like the contractions of a birth and there will be no stopping or postponing their fulfillments. I am sure there are many opinions on what is the specific water breaking event that begins the initiation of the events, leading to the fulfillment of the last 7 years of earth history just prior to the return of Christ. Some believe it is the resurrection and rapture as described by Paul. Some believe it is the war of Ezekiel 38 and 39, some believe it is the AOD. IMHO, it is Isaiah 17. The destruction of Damascus, in my opinion will be the catalyst that will ignite the Ezekiel battle. Isaiah may be the culminate event to end the battle of Psalm 83. In this battle the inter circle of Islamic (bordering) states surrounding Israel are defeated and are no longer a threat to Israel. If during this battle a salvo of chemical or biological agent armed missiles are fired from Syria (where all the terror factions are currently fighting to gain control of the bio and chemical weaponry once belonging to Iraq and transported to Syria during the Gulf Wars) into Israel killing hundreds if not thousands of Jewish citizens. The Israeli response will be without proportion, they will fire their nuclear weapons on Syria destroying Damascus and the other places described by Isaiah 17. Damascus is the oldest recorded continually inhabited city in the world. It has never been utterly destroyed, left in a ruinous heap, never to be a city again. The nuclear destruction of this city I believe will be the event to watch for. The breaking of the water. This will infuriate the Islamic world, and the outer ring/circle of Islamic nations surrounding Israel described in Ezekiel and along with Russia will attack Israel as described in chapters 38 and 39.

It is generally believed the tribulation as described in Revelation will begin as it is described in the parallel verses describing this event (7 years) in the book of Daniel. And will begin at the implementation of the Covenant with many. This will be a treaty or agreement between the antichrist and the nations of the world. This covenant will be for 7 years. In implementing this covenant Daniel says three of the 10 kingdoms will be subdued. This is also believed to be the aftermath of the Ezekiel 38 and 39 battle. In this battle it is believed three kingdoms are subdued allowing the antichrist to form the last world government kingdom. The kingdoms are believed to be the North America, Russian federation, and the Arab kingdoms. It is believed by some that the event of the resurrection and rapture will trigger the Ezekiel battle. The 1st seal as read, will release the antichrist to rise to power, and is not necessarily the beginning of the 7 year tribulation period. Once the antichrist assumes power after the Ezekiel battle he will then bring forth the covenant with many. once this covenant is accepted by the world, the tribulation will begin. It will last for 2520 days, separated into two periods of 1260 days, the midpoint will be the event known as the Abomination of Desolation (AOD). This has been attempted twice in the past. Following both the First and second world wars. The globalist had treaties, agreements and you could call them covenants ready for the leaders of the nations of the world to sign on to for a world government. After WWI the League of Nations was created. The U.S. Senate at the time rejected the treaty/covenant because in intruded on the sovereignty and Constitution of the U.S. After WWII the same attempt was made at world government with the United Nation, it wasn’t as intrusive and the U.S. signed on, along with the majority of the world’s nations. The UN however isn’t the all powerful world centralized government the globalist envisioned… Act Three, the three-peat. The third world war will be attempted to once again forced the world's nations into a centralized world government. This will be the one described in Daniel and recorded by John in detail in the book of Revelation of the 10 kingdoms. The book of Ezekiel chapters 38 & 39 records the battle/war that will be used to initiate the acceptance of the covenant with many, as was attempted with the first two world wars. In reading and studying chapters 38 and 39 you will see this war is described as happening in the latter years, and just prior to a 7 year period. This parallels the 7 year covenant with many, and also indicates to us the possible kingdoms being subdued in Daniel. The battle of Ezekiel 38 and 39 will be so horrific approximately 1 billion people may be killed. This battle could possible parallel the 2nd seal. The covenant with many will end the sovereignty of the world's nations and divide the world into 10 kingdoms or regions. A king will be appointed over each kingdom, and the antichrist will rise to power and rule over the 10 kingdoms, once he rises to his full power at the mid point he commits the AOD. JMHO Peace, but not yet. Maranatha,... The Lord Cometh.

I believe we must understand the difference between the realms that exist. The eternal state is where GOD and the heavenly host exist. In this realm there is no time per say as we understand it, seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years and so on. We are conditioned by this, being a attribute in the creation realm. GOD basically created time itself, and placed the creation realm into it. All of the physical attributes of the creation realm, stars, galaxies, all that can be seen with our largest and most powerful telescopes, are just components of a huge time piece, a clock if you will, called creation. This clock was set for a 7000 year period. GOD says in Genesis, that He created the moon and the stars to tell times and seasons. The eternal realm also isn’t bound by the laws set forth in the creation realm. You always hear people say well how old is GOD, when was He created. It is because of the conditioning of the time flow of the creation realm people ask this. They systematically place GOD under the rules He set forth for the creation realm. GOD is not bound by these rules, not restricted to the flow of time of the creation realm. He exist in all time at the same moment, the real meaning to The Alpha and the Omega. He also through the Holy Spirit can exist every and anywhere at the same moment. We can’t go back in time to the beginning of creation, GOD is there now. We also can’t instantly go forward to the end of the 1000 reign of Christ. GOD is also there in that time now. He exist in all time. He is at the beginning of time and the end of time at the same instant. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.....get it. Satan is a eternal created being, not a creation based being as we are. You can’t apply a creation year to Satan and the other beings created in the eternal realm. They were not created in the creation realm. The realms are separated from each other by a barrier. We can’t cross that barrier unless we die and then our spirit is allowed to enter the eternal realm, saved only of course. I believe the barrier GOD put in place to separate the realms, has to do with particle acceleration. The best way to describe this is. All the molecular particles of the physical attributes of the eternal realm are traveling beyond the speed of light. All the molecular particles of the creation realm are traveling well below the speed of light. When GOD allows, beings in the eternal realm can control the speed of the particles of their molecular structure, slowing them down to well below the speed of light, they then appear to men. This happened all through the O.T. When they speed their molecules up beyond the speed of light they will become intangible and invisible once again as they phase back into the eternal realm. It is in my opinion, Lucifer existed un-fallen in the eternal realm when GOD created time and placed the creation realm into it. What made Satan rebel was pride. He more than likely became upset, that GOD created the earth and placed his new creation Adam as ruler instead of him. Satan then betrayed GOD and was cast out. However, this time frame in the creation realm was after the creation week had been completed. For GOD saw everything He had created and it was good, yah it was very good. Satan had not yet entered the picture. When he did enter the picture, well read Genesis for the rest of the story. If you don’t separate the realms in perspective to their existence, and try to force the eternal realm under the time flow rules of the creation realm, you will always try and place a creation date on things that happened in the eternal realm (angelic rebellion), and it will never make since to you. I believe this misunderstanding of the realms has caused the creation of many theories based of trying to fit the evolution view into the creation account, one being the gap theory, where there existed a past history of the earth before GOD reformed it for Adam. This is used to explain the dinosaurs, by adding million and billions of years of prehistoric history that never truly existed. JMHO Peace, but not yet. Maranatha,...The Lord Cometh.

In reading the whole context of the topic. It appears there are several inbound space objects that prophetically will strike the earth. This could be a single entity that fragments as it approaches the earth. As verse 8 of Revelation indicates, the objects were purposely directed towards the earth, as direct judgments. However this judgment could have been set in motion at anytime in earth’s historical timeline, to be fulfilled during the last 7 years prior to Christ’s physical return. The first three trumpets describe the destruction from the judgments. The 4th trumpet is the resulting aftermath of the first three. The first trumpet judgment may possibly be describing a nuclear war taking place. The 2nd and 3rd trumpets strongly seem to indicate inbound objects impacting the earth from space, where as the 1st doesn’t necessarily indicate an impact, just that there is suddenly hail and fire mingled with blood, which could be a descriptive of nuclear detonations. This could also account for a 3rd part of the trees burning along with all the green grass.The debris thrown into the atmosphere and raining back down from a land base strike (3rd trumpet) of a large inbound object is the most likely scenario causing the 3rd part of the rivers and fountains to be polluted and bitter (Wormwood). The fourth trumpet, I believe is the resulting aftermath of the first three. Here I believe one of two scenarios has happened. The sky is darkened and the day shone not for a third of it and the night likewise, from the debris thrown into the atmosphere by a possible nuclear war in the 1st trumpet, and the impacts from inbound objects from space in the 2nd and 3rd. Here we must consider the catastrophic destruction these events will cause to the earth’s surface and atmosphere. I’d imagine the death toll from these events could be in the 100’s of millions around the world. Revelation 8: 7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. I’d like you to also consider the 2nd scenario. It is possible the impacts of these objects could cause the rotation of the earth to be altered. Read the descriptive in Revelation verse 12 again. The day shown not for a 3rd part of it and the night likewise. Is it possible this is describing the acceleration of the earth’s rotation? I have always wondered what Christ meant in Matthew 24 verses 21 and 22. I have also searched for the fulfillment of this prophecy in the Revelation account. Since Matthew 24 appears to be a parallel account of Revelation if you compare the scriptures side by side, and the only reference (I can find) to what appears to be the shortening of the days is at the 4th trumpet descriptive. Matthew 24: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Consider this, Christ promises to shorten those days, and I believe the days being referred to are the ones immediately following the A.O.D. described in Matthew 24:15. The last 3½ years, 42 months, or the last 1260 days, as Revelation indicates this period of time last. With that, did anyone see the problem. Revelation numbers the exact amount of days that will transpire. Christ say He will shorten those days. Are they numbered, or will they be shorten? I believe the solution to the problem may be revealed at the 4th trumpet. Christ wasn’t talking about shortening the number of days for the tribulation to transpire, I believe He was actually indicating the length of the days themselves would be shortened. A 3rd part of a 24 hour day is 8 hours. So if the days are shortened to 16 hour days, then Christ fulfills his promise, shortening the days, and the total number of days indicated throughout Revelation (1260) can transpire. In genesis the day is defined as an evening and morning, this is not altered in this scenario. This will shorten the length of the last 3½ years in hours, not days, but still shortens the time for the period to transpire. This timeline also reveals to us when the trumpet judgments may start, sometime near the beginning of the midpoint of the tribulation years. Just after or just prior to the A.O.D. In Matthew verse 21, Christ describes this period of time as the worst time for the earth, tribulation never before seen, nor will it ever be seen again. Possible nuclear war followed by impacts from large inbound objects from space. We are talking destruction not seen since the flood of Noah. There is also a war in heaven near this midpoint where Satan and his fallen are cast out of heaven to the earth. Christ promises to shorten the days, however He accomplishes this, I hope He comes quickly. This is the last 1260 days of earth history before the 1000 year reign of Christ. JMHO Peace, but not yet. Maranatha, ....the Lord cometh.

I am new here, and this was one of the first threads I read through, and I believe I agree with the question. Here is my reasoning why. I believe from my studies on this subject, The resurrection and rapture as described by Paul will happen on a future Rosh Hashanah. My reckoning is this. Place yourself in the audience there when Paul was speaking. When Paul said this event will happen at the last trump, you must stop and do some analytical thinking here. At that time the N.T. was being lived, and a lot of it hadn’t even been written yet and it wasn’t in any fashion as a single entity as the O.T. canonization. With this thought, when Paul said at the last trump most all in that gathering knew exactly what last trump Paul was referring to, and it wasn’t from the N.T. or Revelation, for Revelation hadn’t been revealed to and recorded by John, and it would come many years later. What all those there did know of and have access to, was the O.T. and that is what they referenced when Paul said “the last trump“. Everyone there would have known Paul was referring to the feast of trumpets, where at the end of the day, one last trump is sounded to end the day. They had been observing this feast every year for many years by that time. If, someone there would have asked “what last trump“? No one in the audience would had said the one in Revelation, for it was yet to come. But, here lies a problem, if this is true then Paul not only revealed the exact day, but also the exact hour this event will happen, only the year isn’t revealed. In every discussion concerning the timing and detail of future prophetic events, there is always someone who quickly quotes Matthew 24:36. The verse that says there is a specific day that no one knows but the Father only. And they use this verse as an end all to any serious discussion, you can’t know because Christ says so. However, with a little analytical thinking, and truly reading to understand the actual context of what you are reading. We can put more perspective on this topic. First, I‘d like to say, I.M.H.O. Matthew 24:36 is the most misunderstood and misinterpreted verse in the whole bible. I have heard it most of my Christian life. You can’t know the day and hour. And it is always applied to the resurrection and rapture, or the physical return of Christ, or both. So lets look at Matthew 24:36 and read it in its true context. Read it numerous times till you see it. Most still wont believe it even though it is right in front of their eyes. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Have you figured it out yet. The day no one knows but the Father is already revealed in the context. It has nothing to do with the resurrection and rapture or the day of Christ’s physical return. Christ tells you what day can’t be known in verse 35, in the true actual context of what you are reading. The day no one can know but the Father only is the day the heaven and earth pass away. This day is described in Peter and Revelation, and it happens after the 1000 year reign of Christ. That is exactly what is being said, Christ did not say the day of the resurrection and rapture or when I return is the day, he said the day the heaven and earth pass. It could have easily been translated, without changing any meaning to read. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled, but my words shall not pass away. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. The context is still the same. Most have just heard verse 36 pounded in their heads for their whole Christian existence and have never read the verse in context to verse 36 and understand the true meaning. So I suggest a reevaluation in studying Matthew 24 verse 36 to understand its true context and meaning. Peace, but not yet. Maranatha