choir loft

You do not understand the doctrine you are defending. From the beginning I've said the doctrine of eternal torment was CATHOLIC in origin. It is NOT Biblical. The Roman church adopted much of its dogma from pagan sources, including the myths of the afterlife and Purgatory. Protestant churches continue to march in lock-step with Catholic dogma as YOU have demonstrated. I challenge you to prove otherwise by means of historic reference, context of Biblical intent, and verbal CORRECTNESS of the meanings of words. Don't twist words to defend eternal torment. Use them in their proper meaning and you will be forced to abandon the myth of hell. It isn't Biblical. If you buy one part of Vatican doctrine, you must buy it all - or at least be aware of it. My purpose here is to shed the light of accurate interpretation of God's Word as well as to share historic references to Catholic heresy. NO interpretation of the Bible can hope to be truthful and accurate when the meanings of simple words are perverted. The ONLY way you can prove hell is by demonic confusion of simple word meanings. To do so is to defend the lies of satan - to obfuscate the intent of God's Word. Death means cessation of life. Nowhere does the Bible suggest otherwise. Nowhere in human culture, except in occult perversions, is death supposed to mean a godless existence beyond the grave. Fire means destruction - absolute total and irreversible for all time to come (forever). Nowhere does the Bible suggest otherwise, but occult myths such as those promoted by the Catholic church, pervert the meaning of it to monetary purpose (ie: donation$/spiritual bribery to get their people unlocked from purgatory). Your references to resurrection of the wicked is one that is TEMPORARY. The Bible does not suggest otherwise. When Jesus resurrected Jairus' daughter, Lazarus and the young man, He gave them a TEMPORARY resurrection. They later died again. So it is with the Second Resurrection. The First Resurrection is of the Just - those whose names are in the book of life. Justified persons are given an immortal PERMANENT resurrection. The Second Resurrection is of the wicked - those who will be sentenced to final utter and total destruction BY FIRE - the Second Death mentioned in Revelation. You wrote, "nobody has to bribe God" if they've chosen to accept Christ. I didn't say bribery was a legitimate method of salvation, but the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and eternal torment DOES. The blood of Christ means nothing to them except as an oblique method to divert attention away from the Lordship of Jesus Christ. (*) There are NO varying degrees of punishment in hell. (Mostly because there's no hell to begin with.) Your assertions are extremely confused and unfocused. They are this way because the doctrine you're defending is itself an obfuscation from the mind of the Enemy of us all. God is not the author of confusion, but satan is for sure. If hell is eternal torment, what difference does it make how hot the furnace may be? Judgment is not a kitchen stove with one setting for cookies and another for London Broil. Think about what you are writing and defending! You do yourself a disservice when you parrot incoherent dogma & myth. The five cities of the kingdom of Sodom were utterly and permanently destroyed by fire. The varying degrees of ruin you mention, but do not quote, come from Luke 10:12, Matthew 10:24, Matthew 10:15 & Mark 6:11. These are ALL judgments upon cities, not people. Go back and read the words. That's why I submitted the references here. There are judgments against nations, against cities and against individual persons. Judgments vary IN CONTEXT, but the one I am trying to focus attention upon is final destruction of the WICKED and immortal life granted to the JUST. No nation or city built by the hand of man is EVER granted immortal life. Their duration and degree of prosperity upon the earth is limited - always. No immortal life of any sort or quality is granted to the wicked. The wicked are entirely consumed and destroyed for all time and in perpetuity. God hates SIN and those who love SIN. He means to have an end to it finally and totally. Men have the choice during life to abandon SIN and all its works, to embrace God's righteousness and make it their own. If man does not, then God will destroy the man completely - deletion, elimination and destruction without hope of bail parole or amnesty. That which is destroyed is NEVER reconstituted. Why do you seek to defend SIN and its works? Why do you wish to see the wicked preserved when even God promises they will be destroyed? Why do you apologize for Catholic perversion of simple words and the intent of grace to save? You are doing it because you've been persuaded of a lie and refuse to accept truth even when presented in simple terms. Death means cessation of life. Fire means absolute destruction. Those words mean nothing else unless some pagan occultist perverts their meaning to something God did not intend. Consider the love of God and the Good News (gospel means good news) that He will grant HIS immortal life to men as well as a way to obtain it. He didn't have to do that, you know. God will have an end to SIN. Either man will abandon it voluntarily or man himself will be destroyed in it. That is the Biblical message. To suggest otherwise is to defend an occult lie of the devil and a prosperous method of the Catholic church, as well as certain Protestant denominations, to collect bribe money. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (*) In Catholic imagery of Christ, the Son of God is ALWAYS represented as a helpless creature. Jesus is represented as a helpless baby or a dead guy on a stick. Jesus isn't God on earth, the Pope is god on earth. "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth." Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.

Which Bible are you referring to? Yours? You are no expert, friend. It is grossly inappropriate to insult someone else's relationship with Christ. Your Biblical illiteracy and attitude of spiritual superiority is disgusting. The Bible does NOT speak of eternal torment. Show me chapter and verse. You cannot because it does not - not at least unless you spin it according to Catholic doctrine. The Bible speaks of utter everlasting destruction, which is totally different. The pattern of the destruction of the kingdom of Sodom is a precedent - a pattern. (Jude 1:7) How many of the residents of Sodom suffer the pains of fire today? None, because they died suddenly and for all time in the fires of divine judgment. The dead don't keep dying. They die and that's it. Kapish? Go to a Christian bookstore or Amazon's web site. In those places you will find many different translations of the Bible. Why are there so many? Have you ever asked yourself that question? The reason is that the ORIGINAL words were Hebrew in the Tanakh (Old Testament). Tradition tells us the New Testament was written in Greek. In the 5th century, the entire collection was translated into a single language for the first time. That first collection language was Latin and it was called The Vulgate. Look it up and learn something. Some scholars now believe the entire New Testament was also originally written in Hebrew. They've come to this conclusion by the frequent use of Hebrew idioms which pass across translational barriers. Have a look at the gospel of Matthew. Hebrew idioms have been transliterated into English where almost every sentence begins with the word AND. It makes for difficult reading because that's the way Hebrew is intended to be read originally. It's a Hebrew idiom, which when translated into English, word for word, makes for difficult reading. Greek isn't like that. Are you familiar with the Greek language? Look up the meaning of the word idiom and learn something. The first time a Bible translation was commissioned in English it was called THE GREAT BIBLE and was a conglomeration of the Vulgate (Latin), Greek and German translations. The most well known attempt to translate directly from Hebrew and Greek into English resulted in the King James Version. Unfortunately the KJV is riddled with English phrases and cultural English idioms. For instance, the pagan anglo-saxon word hel was used to substitute for the Hebrew word sheol. Hel or hell as it came to be known was a pagan reference to the underworld, while sheol has a completely different meaning. Look up sheol and learn something. Other words such as Hades (a pagan god of the underworld - a person not a place) and gehenna (Hebrew for 'city dump') were also mistranslated from the original. There are very many translations of the Bible from the original into English because English isn't the language of God's chosen oracle - the Jews. Look up the word oracle while you are busy learning other words. Or don't and remain illiterate. Look up the word illiterate as well. It's not intended as an insult. It's a statement of learning level - a fact. There are many translations of the Bible because modern scholars have learned that idioms have complicated the text. Worst of all is that Catholic dogma and anti-semitism, which is in lock-step with Protestant doctrine, has insinuated itself into the Bible to promote the agenda of those who do not approve of the Bible's intent. The most well known of these is the Scofield Reference Bible. It's notorious in that it promotes several false doctrines while presuming to be an accurate translation. I wouldn't touch that book with a ten foot pole. Neither should you. The story goes on, but the bottom line here is that one should study study study. When illiterate people fixate themselves on popular religious slogans and buzz words they do themselves a disservice. They forsake study for the lazy comfort of familiar inaccurate phrases, myth and prejudice - not truth. God did not intend this when He gave us His Word. Gleaning truth requires work and study - something few people devote themselves to these last days. that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....

who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light - 1 Tim 6:16 ONLY GOD is immortal. The Bible says so. The natural tendency of humans is to die - body, brain and spirit. "they die just like animals" - Psalm 49:12 49:20 "humans and animals have the SAME DESTINY" - Ecclesiastes 3:19 NO the spirit does NOT continue forever. Nowhere does the Bible say such a thing. It is, however, inferred by misguided illiterate folks who believe pagan myth over Biblical truth. Your assertions are VERY confused because they are based upon illogic and illiterate understanding of the Bible. "human beings are not just bodies, just souls, just spirits," you write. I need to interject the correct definition of terms here. You write souls, but don't know the meaning of the word. Greek philosophers defined the human as having three components; body mind and spirit. TOGETHER this tripartite collection is called a SOUL. On the other hand, the word soul can be interchanged with spirit provided it's used in correct context. You did none of it, probably because no one has instructed you on what context means. Look up the meaning of the word context and learn a useful definition. The illogic of your assertion begins with the statement a human is a collection of three parts - a soul composed of body mind and spirit. Correct! You then destroy your own logic by stating later the body and mind are destroyed, but the spirit goes on. Separation of the three is unBiblical. Jesus taught the whole thing can be DESTROYED - body mind and spirit together. The Bible promises a resurrection of the righteous soul - ALL THREE COMPONENTS. The righteous are resurrected as a complete soul - body mind and spirit. Not a disembodied spirit. How do we know this? Jesus demonstrated the unity of body mind and spirit when He was raised. He wasn't raised a spirit only. Your assertion adopts pagan illogic and myth. Your words prove NOTHING. You wrote: "So, where would you warehouse eternal spirits separate from God and his people? Bible says lake of fire. Anyone who can read sees this." Apparently you need to revisit the book of Revelation and READ it again. The lake of fire described in Revelation is called the Second Death, not a storage facility. Fire destroys. Death implies a cessation of life. Go to a cemetery and see how many people writhe in pain in the grave. Not one because they're all DEAD. Twisting words is the devil's business. God is not the author of confusion. Nobody, not even God, warehouses anything in fire. Roman Catholic doctrine was adopted from centuries old pagan myths about the underworld - the afterlife. None of it is Biblical, but Protestants who march in lock-step with Vatican dogma continue to accept Roman rubbish as gospel. Hades, which was originally a Latin translation of the Hebrew word sheol, was originally the pagan god of the underworld. Hades was a person, not a place. Look it up. The false translation was re-translated from latin to English, the first version of which was the King James Bible. It stuck because illiterate people didn't bother to check it out. Hell was originally an anglo-saxon (pagan English) word hel, which also meant the underworld. Look it up and learn something. The KJV used the ancient pagan version of hel to represent sheol also. Compare different translations of the same verses. Look it up and learn something. Now is also a good time for you to investigate the meaning of the Hebrew word sheol. It will tell you much about the meaning of Jesus' words as well as the apostles - all of whom were Jews. The word gehenna, when employed by Bible translations more indicative of correctness, refers to a garbage dump outside the south gate of Jerusalem in Jesus' time. Garbage thrown into the city dump was consumed by fire and maggots - as it is to this day. The garbage is consumed, but the flames and worms continue. Do you actually know anybody who LIVES in the city dump? The idea of a storage locker or closet for the newly dead comes from the Catholic version of the Apocrypha. In the Catholic dogma the newly dead are shut up in a closet with a name tag on the door. The tag reads, "Purgatory". The doctrine of Purgatory was further developed and popularized by Dante Alighieri in his book THE DIVINE COMEDY. The work was intended as satire, but because it was such a fine story it was adopted as truth by church leaders and laity alike. According to Catholic/Protestant myth, spirits of the dead (not souls) are locked up until BAILED OUT by BRIBE money given to God via the local priest. They do it to this day. Look it up and learn something. Yes boys and girls the whole sad subject of purgatory and eternal torment is really about spiritual extortion, not salvation or damnation. It's all about the money. Money, money, money. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Can God be bribed? He cannot. (Deuteronomy 10:17) If you buy a slice of the afterlife bovine excrement shoveled out by the Roman Catholic church, you must buy it all. But the Bible doesn't say anything like that at all. ONLY GOD IS IMMORTAL. who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light. - 1 Tim 6:16 Humans die. "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal" - Genesis 6:3a THE GOOD NEWS is that God has chosen to give of His immortal life to those who REPENT and CONFESS their SINs and accept Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior. ONLY THE JUST get to live forever. Nowhere does the Bible promise immortality to the wicked. Men torture. God does not. You ascribe the villainy of mankind to God? You err wickedly in your assertions. Jesus isn't the dungeon master of a subterranean concentration camp. The Bible says the wicked will be utterly and permanently destroyed without hope of parole or bail. God hates SIN and has promised to destroy it and all its works, including those who love it. God has promise to grant immortality to those who deny SIN. How about concentrating on the hope of immortal life in Christ Jesus and the FACT that He will not allow the Second Death to touch those who are His own? THAT is something to really holler about. Yes it is. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Beasts in the Bible are properly interpreted to refer to systems nations and organizations unless otherwise stipulated. Therefore, the reference to sheep and goats is a reference to nations - those that are favored in God's eyes and those that are not. The same is true of references to the sea-beast and the earth-beast in Revelation 13. Those beasts represent a religious system and a nation - specifically the Roman Catholic church and the United States. Since it is impossible for a nation or system to experience pain and torture, the beast punishment is figurative, not literal. When eternal punishment is referenced with regard to Final Judgment, it connotes God's hatred of those entities, which will be for all time in perpetuity (perpetuity means forever). God's hatred will be forever, not the punishment. The punishment will be final. Therefore the goats will be destroyed and the sheep blessed. The precedent for this also appears in the books of Exodus and Leviticus. The Bible is self-interpreting. Read it, not the internet. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN. God has stated on numerous occasions in Holy Writ that He hates it. God has stated that He intends to make a permanent end to SIN as well as its works. Therefore, man must either CONFESS and REPENT of his SIN and end it or God will end it by the man's death - physically and spiritually. God WILL have an end to SIN. God will not allow SIN to continue after physical death. If He did, it would be a continuation of that which God promised to end. The pagan notion of an underworld dungeon does not appear in scripture anywhere. Give us chapter and verse if you can, instead of twisting scripture to occult purpose. How long does the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" described in Matthew 13:42 last? That snippet of scripture you picked doesn't tell us. The realization of imminent spiritual death on the part of the unjust may last a blink of an eye or a moment or two. Death will come and many that suffer it will weep EVEN BEFORE it arrives. I have seen it in fact. Many also rant against God for bringing them to that point in time. GOOGLE is a search engine, not a Bible scholar. It will yield results for any search parameter. If you search for the root word you will discover the following from Wikipedia; The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (first attested around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon period. Thus even Google reveals the word hell is pagan in origin, not Biblical. Why do you refuse to acknowledge your own references? I submit you are so eager to dismiss God's Final Judgment upon SIN and those who love it that you can not and will not admit the Bible's promise of divine retribution for it - that God WILL have an end to SIN - forever. As usual, those who love SIN and seek to justify and continue satan's lie that "you will not surely die" (Genesis 3:4) are living a false hope and promoting a demonic doctrine. Those who love SIN continue to subvert the Bible's clear and unequivocal statement that he who sins shall die. (Romans 6:3). Death is the cessation of life. How simple does it have to get to persuade sinners? Fire destroys all that is cast into it. Nothing long survives the touch of flame, including a sinner sentenced to the Second Death in the lake of fire. "What the fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away" - Doobie Brothers WHAT A FOOL BELIEVES song of the year 1988 Study the Bible to learn its consistent teaching about life death and eternal reward and punishment. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God's curse! - Galatians 1:9 The soul that sins shall surely die. - Ezekiel 18:20 Death means cessation of life both physical and spiritual. This is a simple idea, not rocket science. To be subverted by demonic purpose the simple meaning of words MUST FIRST be redefined. This is true in religion as well as human politics. Beware those who reverse the meaning of words. They are liars one and all. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The principle of TEMPORARY resurrection is demonstrated in the gospels. Read about Jairus' daughter, Lazarus and the young man that Jesus raised. All of those were TEMPORARY resurrections. They died later on. So too will the resurrection of the unjust be at the end of the age. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unjust, will be for Final Judgment. GOD HATES SIN and He despises those who have rejected His loving overtures all their lives. At the Final Judgment He will cause them to depart from His presence into the Second Death - total utter destruction and annihilation. GOD does NOT resurrect the unjust with "special bodies" other than for Final Judgment. Nowhere does the Bible say God gives immortal life to the wicked. NOWHERE. CONSIDER if you can that the false doctrine of hell, as well as your own denial of divine judgment against SIN, is a futile attempt to establish life for the dead. - If the unjust are given life, then Christ died for nothing. - If the unjust can bribe God to relieve them of their punishment, then Christ died for nothing. Only the blood of Christ can save. Why did Jesus die upon the cross? He died so that those who REPENT and CONFESS their SIN and accept His lordship in their lives could receive forgiveness and immortal life. Those who reject Christ all their physical lives get NO second chance for repentance after death. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; - Genesis 6:3a The word MORTAL refers to creatures that are naturally subject to death - all of us in other words. At death the opportunity to REPENT is lost. Final judgment is FINAL. I am really curious why you are so eager to defend SIN and the works of the devil. I am curious as to why you wish to subvert the work of Christ upon the cross and to substitute a demonic version of the afterlife. You write as though you have no idea what Christ's sacrifice for SIN was about. This is typical of illiterate Christians as well as the secular world. The opportunity to accept Christ ONLY happens during physical life. NOWHERE does the Bible suggest otherwise. The idea that choices continue after death is pagan in origin and Roman Catholic in practice. It is wholly a demonic lie. You CAN NOT bribe God to forgive you after death and you CAN NOT hope to remain alive, even a torturous life, after death. Only the just receive immortal life and then at the first resurrection. Stop approving of SIN. Stop making allowance for it. It is not Biblical. REPENT or die in your SINs. Today is the time for salvation. - 2 Corinthians 6:2 that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Again you are deliberately misunderstanding the meaning of simple words. The fire burns continually. That which is thrown into it is destroyed utterly. There is no hope of reconstitution forever. That which is exposed to flame is utterly destroyed. It does not burn forever. The fire burns forever, not the fuel. Why is this so hard to understand? It's not rocket science, you know. Gehenna, which was an actual dump outside of Jerusalem, burned continually because of the constant deposit of garbage thrown into it. The worms or maggots that lived in the dump constantly feasted upon the detritus of the city SO AS TO CONSUME IT ALL. It should be known also that gehenna was also the place where ancient Hebrews once worshipped the pagan god Molech. The statue of the god was filled with fire into which the people threw their infants. This is a popular practice even to this day, where 'civilized' people murder their children for the sake of convenience. The worm and the fire go on - the waste is destroyed. The judgment upon those who deny God until their dying breath is the same as deadwood. They are thrown away and destroyed. Life is a gift to the righteous in Christ. The doctrine of hell is a lie - suggesting life of an unpleasant nature, but life nonetheless. Nowhere in the Bible does it promise God will grant life to the wicked. No indeed. It says they will be utterly destroyed and removed as were the residents of Sodom. Do they still suffer from fire or were they burned once and for all? THINK. that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Did you read anything I wrote? HISTORY, especially that of the Roman Catholic church, is replete with references to the underworld. SECULAR BELIEF, which has insinuated itself into Christian dogma, suggests a form of immortal life APART from divine judgment. NO my friend, the Bible emphatically does NOT speak to eternal torment. Is Jesus Christ the dungeon master of torments in the bowels of the earth? Show me in the Bible where it says he is or that he has fashioned such a place. You will not find it because it does not exist. Do you read the Bible or do you simply acknowledge the rumor of centuries? The Bible is God's honest truth, but it HAS been improperly interpreted. If not, then please explain why there are so many different translations. In one translation the words of Jesus are quoted as referring to sheol or gehenna, while in another at exactly the same verse it will say hell or hades. The latter references are pagan in origin, while references to sheol and gehenna are strictly Biblical. This is not due to inerrancy of the Bible, but to flaws in the translation process. Any serious study of scripture will reveal these differences. This is why the Bible itself encourages us to "study to show yourself approved" (2 Tim 2:15) Do you study the Bible at all or are you content with rumors and doctrines? In one notorious version of the Bible, the Scofield Reference Bible, aberrant doctrine of Catholic Jesuits is introduced and reinforced by chain link references. It isn't a study Bible so much as it promotes Roman Catholic doctrine. My purpose isn't to cast aspersions upon the Word of God. My purpose is to share knowledge of the history of the unBiblical doctrine of eternal torment and of the history of its transmission thru the years. It's there for anyone to discover if only they will have a look. This isn't something I've cooked up on my own and it isn't something intended to hurt one's faith. Indeed it is intended to reinforce faith. I NEVER said the Bible was full of lies. I DO say that liars like satan use the Bible to teach falsehood and SIN. From Genesis chapter 3 to the present day it has been true of the enemy. For if there is a hell, then there is NO judgment of death upon SINNERS and Jesus died on the cross for nothing. If there is a hell, then Almighty God - the standard of righteousness - can be bribed against His own intentions andjudgments. The Catholic doctrine of hell says there is no real fire and no real death and that the wicked can bribe God. Is this not the vary antithesis of Biblical truth? Think. Read. Study. Don't just sit there and repeat rubbish you learned from Hollywood and comic books and classic mythology. Read the Bible. It uses simple words like 'death' and 'fire' to describe the fate of the wicked. Satan twists the word 'death' to mean something other than death and 'fire' to mean nothing more than hot water. If one examines the Bible for consistent references one will discover death means total end of life and fire means absolute destruction. Sodom was destroyed by fire, not burned by hot water. Sodom will never rise again forever. It is not burned forever. Does not the Bible also say that ONLY GOD has immortal life? How then can anyone assume in truth that mankind has it? We can not if we read the Bible correctly. Jesus came to give life to those who repent of their sin and accept Him. Nobody else gets it, especially the wicked who deny Him to their last breath. Is the Bible inconsistent or is the interpretation confused? Think. that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Exactly correct, which is why I dislike the use of those particular slogans. They are used in conversation to suggest God does NOT judge. As I stated earlier, they are used to deflect arguments that God does indeed JUDGE the SINs of man. "God is able," is thus used to ignore the serious nature of divine rage and judgment so as to suggest God can resolve a situation without resorting to unpleasant circumstances in the life of an individual or a nation - or in our present situation, the entire planet. Buzz words and religious slogans are very dangerous because they are not Biblically oriented. For instance, when statements are made about the SINs and wickedness of our nation and how deserving we are of judgment from a Holy God - the statement "God is in control" is often employed. That slogan is used, not to support or agree with the idea of impending deserved punishment, but to oppose it. The slogans are so deeply ingrained in the lexicon of the average person that it becomes necessary for education to the contrary to be promoted, especially among the Biblically illiterate. People resist the idea these slogans are both unBiblical and contrary to divine will as revealed in Holy Writ. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Nice fantasy. Chapter and verse from the Bible to justify your false interpretation, please. You are referring to a fiction published by Dante Alighieri in the middle ages. Of the three portions of his Divine Comedy, your post appears to refer to that which was titled 'Inferno'. The work was so exquisitely descriptive of the afterlife that it was accepted by millions as truth despite its sarcastic nature. It was the middle ages' version of Saturday Night Live and just like today it too was taken seriously when it was only meant as humor. In Dante's Inferno, the damned wrestled with torments. George Lucas used one of the verbal images in his sixth episode of Star Wars. When R2D2 is taken into Jabba the Hutt's dungeon, it sees another droid upside down having the soles of its feet burned. Same as a scene in Inferno. Good fiction. Poor doctrine. Everlasting burnings refers to the fire, not the fuel. Fire burns. Fuel is consumed. No fuel lasts forever. In order to make the idea of everlasting torment work, you must pervert the meaning of simple words; fire and death. This is the devil's work. Is it yours also? I certainly hope not. As I wrote earlier, if you can find a fuel that burns eternally please let me know so I can get some for my car. The use of the word FIRE in scripture is specific and describes total destruction of anything cast into it. So is the word DEATH. These are words with specific undiluted meanings. There is absolutely no description in scripture of the damned writhing in pain in the flame. Eternal abhorrence refers to a condition God declares to be irreversible. Once destroyed the condemned will not be reconsidered for another resurrection. Divine irreversibility is like yesterday. It will never come again - forever. The idea of eternal torment is consistent with Roman Catholic doctrine, which was formulated as fear mongering as well as an opportunity to persuade Biblically illiterate persons to give up hard earned money. The Catholic doctrine places lost souls in purgatory, a spiritual parking lot, wherein God can be bribed to release the damned from torture. MONEY is given to the priests for prayers on behalf of the dead. While you're looking up aberrations of doctrine in scripture, please also tell me where it says God can be bribed. You won't find it because God cannot be bribed. Now let the fear of the LORD be on you. Judge carefully, for with the LORD our God there is no injustice or partiality or bribery." - 2 Chronicles 19:7 If you buy the lie of eternal torment, then you must also accept the Catholic doctrine that God can be bribed, which He cannot. Which is it? Biblical truth or false Christian myth? You cannot have both. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Quite true. The problem is that people choose NOT to repent. Therein lies our present difficulty. Without repentance, God will not hear prayers asking for relief and forgiveness. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The phrase "God is in control" or "God is able" are religious slogans often used to suggest God would never judge us and that HE would use methods other than those clearly described in the Bible to affect humanity. They aren't Biblical. We are warned over and over again that God is able to judge here and now BOTH the sins of the wicked as well as the sins of the church. (1 Peter 4:17) It is time to repent of our sins and wickedness. God will NOT hear prayers unless confession and penitence come first. (1 John 1:9) Judgment is not years down the road. It's HERE and NOW. It is time to repent. To defer such a duty before God is never justified or approved. Our repentance must go to the bone. No superficial effort will be recognized by heaven. In repentance and confession lie the power of answered prayer. Without it one is simply wasting their time. God will NOT hear a single word unless confession and repentance comes first - COMES NOW. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

To begin, the concept of immortal life began with the ancient Egyptians. Look it up. Eternal torment was NEVER a concept recognized in Hebrew literature or tradition. Look it up. When the Greek and Roman empires arose, they adapted the Egyptian myth into their own form of classic pagan religion. Hades, for example, was the god of the underworld. Hades was a mythical person, not a place. Look it up. In the first centuries of the Catholic corruption of Christianity the Roman myths of an underworld populated by the damned (a word that properly means condemned) was further adapted and adopted. Hades became a place of everlasting punishment instead of a person. Gehenna, which was in reality a city dump for the residents of Jerusalem, also became a synonym for everlasting punishment. Finally the English word hell isn't Biblical either. The word hell is derived from the Old English word hel, which in turn is derived from a pagan Anglo-Saxon myth also referring to the nether world. Hell was adopted into the English language in 725AD, long after Jesus' ascension into heaven. Look it up. All the concepts of eternal torment are pagan in nature, not originating with Hebrew scripture at all. Neither are they references made by Christ. (Hell was adopted in 725AD, long after Jesus' ascension into heaven.) Look it up. It's all true. Moving Forward...... In Hebrew, the place of the dead is called sheol. Also referred to as a place of darkness or a place where the spirits of the sleeping dead are sent. Nothing is said about torment, nothing at all. The Christian subversion of the meanings of words is rampant. In order to force false doctrine upon its members, the Catholic church, as well as aberrant Protestant sources, change the meanings of simple words. The concept is not unknown among those experts in political propaganda. For instance, dead means a condition devoid of life. It doesn't refer to unDead, an occult phrase popular today. Life refers to consciousness and continuity and fire refers to that which utterly destroys that which is exposed to it. In no instance does fire EVER suggest eternal life - including eternal torture. Its not rocket science except for those who seek to justify their own aberrations of doctrine into something God did not intend. When God said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal" in Genesis 6:3a was He lying? When Timothy, St. Pauls protege, wrote in his first epistle chapter six verse sixteen of God that He, "alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light." was he too promoting a lie? Either the Bible is coherent with its representations or it is terribly inconsistent. Or perhaps certain people have been led to believe a lie. Which do you believe, pagan myth or Biblical truth? Matt 25:46 refers to judgment that has no reversal. It speaks to God's everlasting contempt for sinners and that He will destroy them utterly without hope of renewal. Mark 9:43 is a misquote. You failed to quote the rest of the verse which states the condemned would be cast into unquenchable fire and destroyed. Matt 25:41 also speaks of permanent irreversible and FINAL destruction by fire - the Second Death. (Do you know what 'death' means?) Matt 10:28 is another deliberate misquote by YOU. The rest of the verse promises total destruction of body & soul. Your quote of Revelation 14 mentions the sea-beast. In the Bible a beast represents a system an organization or a nation. Specifically the quote refers to a religious system. Since it is impossible for systems organizations or nations to experience pain and torment, the section is meant to be taken figuratively. If not, then please show me another section of scripture which suggests otherwise. One cannot base a dogma on a singe verse and approach clarity or truth or intent of God to teach. The correct quote of Matthew 23:23 is as follows; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others." Once again you have misquoted scripture to support a false doctrine. Popular and deliberate misconceptions of the afterlife continue in your often quoted section from the gospel of Luke describing the rich man and Lazarus (Luke chapter 16). The point of the story is that of Jesus' teaching a moral lesson. The background of the story was commonly known in Jesus' day as a type of folk story or fiction. Jesus used it to teach a moral lesson. There are numerous references to such folk tales which are mentioned by the Jewish historian Josephus as well as Biblical scholars such as Gressmann, Froom, Whiston, Edward White, Henry Constable and Edward William Fudge. Jesus often used related subjects to teach moral or spiritual lessons. I hope this helps some readers to understand the difference between pagan influence on modern dogma and what scripture is clearly teaching us all. Study to show yourself approved (2 Timothy 2:15) that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

In response to the title of this thread, THERE IS NO HELL. Nowhere in the Bible is it remotely suggested that sinners are sentenced to everlasting torture. Quite the contrary. Their destiny is total absolute destruction. It's called the Second Death. That which is promised for unrepentant sinners is similar to the destruction of the kingdom of Sodom. Everything was destroyed because of their lack of faith, which might have led them to righteous living. Did not the avenging angels promise Abraham that if even ten righteous persons were found in the five cities of Sodom God would relent from His design of destruction? They did not because they could not. When Sodom was destroyed, not even ashes remained. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. - Luke 17:29 In order to subvert scripture, one must first redefine the simple meanings of words. Good becomes evil, evil becomes good, light becomes darkness and death becomes life. This is something God did not intend. Life means life. Death means death and fire is that which utterly consumes anything thrown into it. Nothing long survives being thrust into fire. If you can find such a thing, please let me know because I'd like some for my car. According to God's promise, the righteous are granted immortal life. Sinners die. Nowhere does the Bible suggest that sinners are granted immortal life in some underground dungeon owned and operated by Jesus Christ, but THAT is EXACTLY what most Christians and secular people believe. It is not Biblical. In order for the MYTH of hell to be accepted one must also accept the notion that sinners are granted immortal life. They aren't because the nature of man is to die. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; - Genesis 6:3a Being mortal and having a mortal nature means that human life is limited to physical duration. That's it and that's all. Only God is immortal. "who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light" - 1 Tim 6:16 EXCITEMENT was generated by the words of Christ when He announced that immortal life would be granted by God to those who made peace with Him. Today we have lost that simple excitement because we have chosen to believe the lie that we shall survive the grave because of some intrinsic capacity of our own. Such a thing does not exist. Jesus said He was the life. We don't have it. We don't have it within ourselves for good and we don't have it within ourselves to suffer beyond the grave. We have only death as an inheritance of life. As any secular person will tell us, death is part of life. But Christ has come to grant life to those who accept HIM. Its as simple and wonderful as that. For sinners, there is no hell. There is only destruction without hope of parole - ever. They will die like animals - 2 Peter 2:12b that's me, hollering from the choir loft..

They aroused the LORD's anger by their wicked deeds, and a plague broke out among them. - Psalm 106:29 Covid-19 has become a global plague. That’s not a definition I’ve cooked up or something invented by the lunatic fringe. Medical experts and politicians in every nation have admitted we are in the midst of a dangerous plague upon mankind. Governments are struggling to get a handle on it and fear, irrational personal fear, is everywhere. Covid-19 is global, not localized at all. Despite the publication of the gospel of Christ everywhere and perhaps because of massive indifference to God’s provision for living a life free of disease we have continued to invest ourselves in SIN and wickedness. The Bible explicitly states God will not sit idly by and allow such conditions to proliferate. It's my belief we are experiencing a global judgment. Even some journalists and politicians will admit in unguarded moments this thing is Biblical in nature because of its reach into every corner of the society of man. Consider also that the fear being experienced by the general population is irrational - verging upon madness. Almost every conspiracy scenario being thrust into public awareness suggests the action of some international power. Every nation is busy pointing the finger of guilt at others. China now blames the US Army, Italy blames its immigrants, Europe blames America and the American media blames the general population as well as China. Some voices on the internet suggest a global conspiracy by some shadowy power group. For what purpose I must ask? To what ends is it promoted? The only scenario that makes logical sense is that it’s an act of God. What's the response? The response is to close all our churches and synagogues. On rare occasions empty prayers are requested. Current prayers are intended to invoke God’s mercy, but without the Biblical prerequisite of repentance and confession of sin. God does not hear the prayers of sinners or of unconfessed sin from anybody. Will God hear prayers asking for mercy when such prayers are not preceded by confession of and a desire to depart from the works of sin? He will not. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. - 1 John 1:9 Pay attention to the first five words of the above quote from scripture. "If we confess our sins..." comes FIRST. If the current wave of illness is indeed of God, then repentance is of primary importance in treating it. I am convinced that if a sufficient amount of penitent prayers are heard in heaven the plague will disappear overnight. The question before us all is, how much is enough? that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

You are justifying Roman Catholic doctrine supported by the Jesuits and by Francisco Ribera, who penned the first interpretations at the end of the 16th century. This dogma attempts to distract obvious Biblical references to the Catholic church as the anti-christ system and the pope as its head/horn. Specifically your (a) question - verse 13:3 says "one of the heads was mortally wounded". You ask a question the Bible does not specify - ie: which man was wounded. History has shown us the man, the wounding. b: I answered this question in a previous post with specific names dates and events. Please refer to that post for your answer. c: The Sea Beast in Revelation refers to a religious system that arises out of "peoples and multitudes and tongues" (Revelation 17:15). The sea beast is a religious system as explained in Revelation - NOT a financial cartel and NOT a military dictatorship. Identification of the sea beast as a religious system is clearly made in the book of Revelation. I will not entertain a lengthy discussion of its identity because participants on these pages have difficulty accepting simple Biblical terms (beast = system & horn = system leader). The earth-beast is created in the image of the sea beast. It isn't a robot or facsimile of a military dictator as represented by popular myth and tabloids. The image of a system or individual is similar to the original. In the case of Revelation the earth beast is identified as the United States. The US has an identical religious component to the sea beast - meaning Roman Catholicism. The only difference between protestants and catholics is that protestants claim autonomous religious jurisdiction separate from the Vatican. This is false, however, as protestants follow in lock-step with almost every tradition & date Rome has endorsed - contrary to the Bible and accepting of paganism. Beast of the sea which has 7 heads for now is a reference meant to confuse the issue. I will not respond to hypotheticals. Finally, Revelation suggests a curious turn of future events - our future. The horn upon the sea beast will be betrayed by the world and destroyed or dismembered. You will not find this assertion in most tabloids BECAUSE they follow the Jesuit pattern for interpreting End Times events, again in lock-step with Vatican policy, the dogma of the anti-christ system. For further clarification by SCHOLARS please refer to the writings of Martin Luther and John Calvin - fathers of the protestant reformation 500 years ago who both identified the Catholic church as the anti-christ system and the pope as the horn. Since the mid-19th century, however, Protestant leaders have been demonically drawn to accept the Catholic interpretation of End Times events and personalities thus diverting Bible studies away from Rome to some fictitious unBiblical and non-Catholic authoritarian figure. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

In Revelation 13:3, one of the heads of the beast is mortally wounded and healed again. The HEAD refers to a man - a person in authority as leader of the beastly religious system. In Revelation 13:6, the beast NOT THE MAN opens its mouth to utter blasphemy against God. The beast represents a religious SYSTEM. It's important to get the interpretation correct and not vacillate between words and terms. If we get the interpretation correct and preserve the definition of terms we learn what scripture means when it identifies the beast and the wounded head. The wounded head: In 1797, the army of Napoleon Bonaparte arrested Pope Pius VI and seized the property of the church in Rome. The head was cut off. Pope Pius died in prison two years later. In 1929, Benito Mussolini restored the Papacy and 110 acres of land in the city of Rome to the Catholic church. Thus Papal authority was reestablished. The head was healed. Blasphemy of the beast: "The Pope and God are the same. So he has all power in heaven and on earth." - Barclay Cap. XXVII p. 218 Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V If the above statement by authority of the Roman Catholic church isn't blasphemy on the part of a religious SYSTEM exalting itself against Almighty God, then please inform us what other example or definition does indeed constitute blasphemy. We cannot accept a different definition or application because there is none other available. The marvel of all this, the absolute marvel, is that the Bible predicted these events and actions over 1,700 years before they happened - EXACTLY as they happened. The devil would have us believe otherwise and seeks to cloud our minds. The best way to do that is to confuse words and meanings. The Lord Our God is not a god of confusion, but of faith and good courage and hope. Hope this helps. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

I cannot acknowledge error - or agree with your apparent confusion of terms as demonstrated in your previous posts. Again - a beast in the Bible represents a system organization or kingdom. Agree or disagree? Let's come down on one point at a time, sir. A horn in the Bible represents a man, a single leader, who arises out of and is supported by his respective system organization or kingdom. Agree or disagree? Let's come down on another point. The beasts are not literally both kingdoms and kings, but a leader may be interpreted as having the authority of a beast. As such he will carry the beasts' name. A leader can not be the beast itself. Its a literal and figurative impossibility. To clarify: Another example may parallel Daniel 7 by explaining the historic meeting near the end of WWII between the Eagle, the Lion and the Bear. The eagle would be representative of US President Franklin D. Roosevelt, the Lion would represent British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and the Bear would be the leader of the Soviet Union Joseph Stalin. Biblical beasts always represent systems organizations or nations/kingdoms. A horn or leader of a kingdom sprouts out of a beast or represents a beast. A man cannot be both except in figurative language, which we do have in Daniel 7 and at the Yalta conference. THE COMMON MISCONCEPTION by extension is that the anti-christ beast is a man. He isn't. The anti-christ beast is a system. Popular tabloid literature has confused the minds of simple people to accept their fantasy as a correct interpretation of prophecy. It isn't because a beast in the Bible always represents a system an organization or a kingdom. The employment of figurative language in the Bible has been a source of confusion for many - especially those who refuse to accept common definitions of terms as a basis for interpretation. One can NOT reasonably approach a consistent interpretation of Biblical prophecy without the consistent application of definitions.' Can we agree on the application of "beast" as system organization or nation? Can we agree on the application of "horn" as representative of a leader of the beast its attached to? Yes or no? that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Lecturing, however futile it may be, is an attempt to transmit accurate knowledge. It is indeed a virtue as every institution of higher learning demonstrates. If the reader has ever attended one he or she will testify that lecturing is a proven and accepted method of teaching. Those that are unfamiliar with education beyond the elementary school level will certainly find lecturing a foreign and unusual process. It is valid nevertheless. * * * In Daniel 7 is related the dream of beasts. In the Bible, beasts ALWAYS represent systems organizations or nations/kingdoms. Here are the four beasts and their representation in history. The great sea is representative of multitudes and peoples and nations and tongues (Revelation 17:15). Four great beasts arise out of the sea in Daniel 7. LION - the first beast described in the dream represents the Neo-Babylonian Empire. This is also linked to the metallic statue wherein Nebuchadnezzar is the top or head or beginning of empires. BEAR - Median Empire. LEOPARD - Persian Empire. TERRIBLE - Selucid Empire. The forth beast isn't described as an animal in the traditional manner, but instead conveys danger and power by means of iron teeth and strength. Nevertheless Daniel does refer to it as a beast, meaning a kingdom. Consistency of interpretation must be preserved if any sense is to be made from prophecy. Rulers and kings, who arise and are described as horns, are in turn supported by their respective systems or kingdoms. Verse 17 states the four beasts are four kings who arise. A king is representative of his kingdom, a representation which continues to this day. A beast is a kingdom. A horn is a leader or king of that kingdom. The images are not interchangeable so much as they are linked to one another. For instance, when an announcement is made that the United States is arriving it is the President of the United States who walks into the room, not 325 million citizens all at once. It is important to keep the standard of interpretation intact so as to avoid confusion. The problem with popular tabloid interpretations today is lack of a qualifying standard. Anyone with a subjective opinion can make a fast buck provided they are good at story telling. Leaders are represented as a horn of the beast, or as you pointed out they may also be given the name of the beast as in Daniel 7:17. The same principle of objective interpretation also applies to politics, which is one reason so many subjective explanations of current events are associated with the lunatic fringe. FINALLY, you seemed to initially agree with me that Daniel's beasts represent kingdoms. Continuing on, you appear to reverse your statement and insist they are men. Your own posts indicate confusion and inconsistency on your part. Which is it? Do you agree with me or are you just being argumentative? My persistence in 'lecturing' is an attempt to clarify terms and interpretations of those terms. They are repeated because they are basic principles of Biblical interpretation. If one can't use basic principles of interpretation in a consistent manner he or she will appear to be confused. Why are you opposed to your own words? Please be consistent with your remarks else the argument will continue - abated only by the censors who constantly peer over our shoulders. I feel the need to lecture so as to explain Biblical prophecy in a meaningful logical fashion. You feel the need to pontificate because of your dogmatic and inconsistent interpretation. Beasts always represent systems organizations or nations while horns out of the beasts head represent men in a role of leadership. Why is this so hard to understand? It's not rocket science, you know. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

YOU DID NOT READ DANIEL 7. "And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom." - Daniel 7:24a How clear does it have to get? Horns represent human leaders that arise out of the beastly kingdom. That's what the words say. Read them. The Bible interprets itself. Read the Bible. You are hung up on preconceptions, forced upon us by tabloid rubbish. The Bible represents beasts as systems, organizations or nations. In Daniel 7 scripture speaks of kingdoms. The horns that arise out of the beast are leaders. The Bible is very specific about this especially in Daniel 7. All you have to do is read the words. Tabloid literature interprets the End Times European power as political. The Bible refers to it as a religious system. The Bible doesn't refer to the EU. Revelation speaks to a religious system, drunk on the blood of the saints. The Catholic church has murdered in excess of 55 million people over its long bloody history. The EU has killed no one. All you have to do is read the words. The Bible interprets itself. All you have to do is read its words - inspired by the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16) not the ilk of Hal Lindsey, Jonathan Cahn, Joel Richardson, Jack Van Impe, John Nelson Darby or others all of whom were inspired by money rather than God. The end game of the end times is that the Bible identifies the Roman Catholic church as the sea beast of Revelation 13, the United States is the earth beast created in the image of the sea beast (*) and the Pope as the anti-christ figure head leader - who died and was raised again in its office. Its really quite simple. The problem is that most people who adopt an End Times scenario in their minds don't bother to study the Bible to see what it says about its own prophecies. They prefer to read trash instead because such garbage doesn't require additional study. The Bible always does. Study to show yourself approved. Or don't and look like a fool. (I know you are not and that you are struggling to understand. Beware tabloid lies and seek the truth for yourself.) that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (*) An image of a thing is a copy of it. For example, a child is the image of its parents. The United States began its history as a Protestant movement. Despite its intimations as being different from Rome, all the Reformation succeeded in doing was changing the jurisdiction of its religious leaders. The Protestant church remains bound at the hip to the Roman Catholic church in every way except apostolic succession. For example, Rome declared Sunday to be the day of worship contrary to the 3rd commandment (Saturday). Protestants happily follow Rome's lead. Daniel says the anti-christ power would seek to change dates and seasons. The EU makes no such claim to religious authority.

In the midst of your worship of Hollywood you forget one primary principle of movie making. Not for nothing is it called Show Bu$iness. The purpose of making movies is to SELL TICKET$, not to convert sinners or inspire saints. The purpose of the Bible epics of the 1950's was to get people to come into the theater and not stay at home watching TV for free. The Bible stories did absolutely nothing to promote repentance, without which no one can be saved, nor did they promote moral Godly living. They were entertainment - nothing less and nothing more. Nothing is more educational to one's faith than the enduring Word of God - stained glass and movies notwithstanding. Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the light." John 14:6 The way to God is via Jesus, not Hollywood boulevard and the walk of fame. Scripture is indeed gold. It lasts forever. Movies are cheap celluloid. The material is easily combustable and lasts only a few years until it crumbles away. The themes that entertain populations aren't anywhere close to being silver or bronze. They are closer to bovine excrement than precious metal. Upon what do you base your reality? Comic books and flickering images in a dark room? "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because its foundation was on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell—and great was its collapse!” - Matthew 7: 24-27 In case you weren't aware, Hollywood is built in the vicinity of a major earthquake fault. One shiver of the earth and the whole house of cards will come tumbling down. The Word of God is permanent and cannot be shaken by anything - including stale popcorn. that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Beasts in the Biblical prophecy are NEVER representative of individuals unless specifically stated. Beasts are representative of systems organizations and nations - always. The sea beast of Revelation 13 arises out of the sea, meaning multitudes of people (see Revelation 17). The leader is a horn that arises out of the beasts' head. Leaders always arise out of an organization, not the other way around. Your concept of the beast as a man is derived from tabloid novelizations of prophecy meant to garner money from ignorant readers, not to support truth. To get truth one must study the Bible, not TV preachers. that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Unbelievably stupid interpretation of scripture. In Daniel as well as Revelation a beast is representative of a system, organization or nation. In Revelation 13 a beast rises out of the sea. Revelation 17 defines the waters as being 'nations and multitudes and peoples'. Therefore the beast, which is further defined as a religious organization, arises out of a population of people. The image of a thing is a representative copy of the original. A child is the image of its parents. The earth beast described in Revelation is the image, or copy, of the sea beast. As the sea beast arises out of a huge population of people the earth beast, a copy, arises out of barrenness. The Bible nowhere suggests robotic technology, holograms or sci fi special effects. It speaks to organizations, systems and nations and the populations that support them. Read your Bible. You will not get proper interpretation of scripture from comic books or Hollywood movies. READ THE BIBLE. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The common definition of pestilence is of infectious disease. An uncommon reference may also be stupidity, which appears to have infected Americans long before Coronavirus appeared on the scene. I refer here to those inconsiderate fools who don't inoculate themselves or their children. Thus it grants them the ability to infect innocent members of the community with their diseases - the fruit of their stupidity. The Biblical usage of 'pestilence' suggests a divine visitation for the purpose of judgment. In either case, the definitions also apply to Americans. Divine visitation of judgment also consists of the delusion that prevention of disease is a bad thing. Stupidity is not a virtue. That too appears to be a form of pestilence in the USA. The nation has turned its back upon God who alone can save us from many things that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

OK. You asked for it - Rapture it is. Blind acceptance of false doctrine like the rapture isn't weak, it's an exercise in stupidity of which American Christians boast a monopoly. Snake-oil salesmen, like Hal Lindsay, write copious novelizations about the poof doctrine and End Times events. All of it is for profit, not prophet. Case in point is that Mr. Lindsey took profit$ from his early work and built a home in California near the San Andreas fault line. Does the reader know the significance of the San Andreas fault and its relation to Mr. Lindsey's frequent dire predictions of the future? The man doesn't believe his own tripe, yet he continues to produce it because fools buy it - figuratively as well as literally. The modern form of the rapture isn't promoted anywhere in the Bible. It's a doctrine of cowards and fools who refuse sound teaching. Does it matter that the Master Himself said it wouldn't happen? Certainly not. Fools, taking direction from satan, call God a liar and claim it doesn't apply to them. Quoting Jesus on the subject is an effort ignored by pretentious types that attend worship (on the wrong day) and agree or disagree amongst themselves on the details of an illegitimate and confused dogma. Nevertheless I'll quote Christ once again. ""I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." - Jesus as quoted by John 17:15 Which part of NOT do rapturists NOT understand? Jesus' prayer is consistent with Biblical context, which is one of courage in the face of potential disaster. Did God poof the Hebrews out of danger when they stood with the Red Sea before them and pharaoh's army behind them? NO. Moses encouraged them with words of faith followed by a deliverance that allowed them to WALK through to safety. Did God send Captain Kirk to beam Daniel out of trouble when he was thrown into the lion's den? NO. God stood with Daniel in the midst of potential death and dismemberment and saw the prophet through it? The same is true for Shadrach Meshach and Abednego, who stood at the edge of the fiery furnace and faced death with stout hearts. God walked with them that day IN AND THROUGH the fire. The Bible is full of examples and statements of courage from cover to cover. God WILL be with those who have faith in Him. God laughs at fools who are expecting a vertical deliverance that will never come. (Prov 1:26) "Yes, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil." - Psalm 23:4a King David meant the above words to be a source of courage and direction in the midst of trouble/tribulation. The coward seeks a way out. The courageous believer takes God at His word and relies upon his own courage and God's promise to deliver as the believer walks through it, NOT FLIES from it as cowards do. "It is time for judgment to begin in the house of God;" - 1 Peter 4:17 Today modern Christians have believed the lie of a 19th century spiritualist (John Nelson Darby), a consort of witches, and embraced a cowardly doctrine that provides not a dot of courage to see anyone through the trials and tribulations of life. THEREFORE GOD HAS JUDGED THE CHURCH AND ALLOWED THEM TO BELIEVE THE LIE. They shall stumble in their SIN and surrender to the clouds in their mind - knowing nothing of God's will for them. When asked to defend their false doctrine, rapturists will usually point to a passage in Luke so as to justify their idiocy. Consider it again for the first time; "It will be just like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed. On that day, let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve his possessions. Likewise, let no one in the field return for anything he has left behind..... I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.” Where, Lord?” they asked. Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.” - Luke 17:30-31 & 34-37 The key point of the rapture is that some folks will be taken out of the world in the flick of an eye. These fools assume they are saintly types who will enjoy early excusal from tribulation. Stupid is as stupid does and none of them, absolutely none of them, actually READS the Word of God and interprets its' words in a logical fashion. Read it again, losers. The people who are TAKEN do NOT go to heaven. They DO NOT ascend into the clouds for a dinner with Jesus at a heavenly Golden Corral. THEY GO TO HELL. Read it again. Where do they go? They go to the place of the dead. Carcass is a dead body and the place of the dead is littered with carcasses. Vultures doesn't describe cute little pink angels with harps. The passage describes DEMONS OF HELL. Read it and try to learn something. Please. Because the church has become a community of fools who justify their delusion with religious slogans and empty buzz words (and do NOT rely upon experts), God has given them over to a depraved mind. The church now embraces all sorts of wickedness and SIN. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie - 2 Thessalonians 2:11 Welcome to the leadership of satan, ye church. Will you stiffen your necks, as the ancient Hebrews once did and suffered residence in the wilderness of SIN for the rest of their natural lives, or will you REPENT. Now is the time for us all to repent of our sins and wickedness. And so I declare with all good courage that God will provide to all who come to Him for it..... BRING ON THE TRIBULATION, BABY. God will be with us to WALK THROUGH it. Cowards who hope to fly out of it will end up IN HELL. That's Jesus talking, not me. If that thought upsets you I suggest you fall to your knees and repent of your cowardly foolishness and abandon the doctrine of the rapture forever. Jesus did. So should you. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Your retort that you doubt the efficacy of scholars isn't unusual. Most Christians today prefer to stand on the ground of Biblical illiteracy to defend an illogical and uninformed opinion. Question: If you doubt the studied opinion of those who've delved deeper into history culture and Biblical narrative than you, then what criteria do you use to justify your own subjective, albeit uninformed attitude? Do YOU study the Bible? Do you know how to do so? Do you read it from time to time or do you rely upon religious slogans and buzz words (as the majority of intellectually lazy Christians prefer to do)? [*] Again, I'm not accusing you personally. Your words are consistent with many Christians who don't have a clue what they're talking about, but they're absolutely certain of it nonetheless. Do you see a person who is wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him. - Proverbs 23:12 Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisors they succeed. - Proverbs 15:22 According to the Bible, inspired by God, one's own opinion is a dry well. It is foolish to rely upon it. According to the Bible, inspired by God, an appeal to many experts is a good idea. In the American church everyone is wise in his own eyes. That's why Christians are regarded as a pack of fools these days. None will take good teaching to heart and few walk in wisdom. The foundations of the church rest upon sand. (Matt 7:24-27) The rest of the structure has corrupted itself and is rotten to its bones. It's like a shredded flag whipped by storm winds that will soon blow away what remains of its recognizable design. Set emotions aside and dig into the issues? You've already testified you don't accept what is 'dug up'. I have already provided evidence for my statement of the fatal head wound to the beast and its miraculous recovery. What additional documentation do you require? Your attitude suggests you only want to argue. You aren't interested in facts figures or logical conclusions at all. To that end I can only advise you to do your own homework - or not - as the case may be. Most folks who go about in denial of scholarly opinion do so because they despise truth. (John 3:19) I'm glad we agree on Darby. That's a good thing. Few would agree with either of us on that point. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... [*] Reliance upon religious slogans and buzz words are fine for greeting cards and poor back-woods preachers who want to make a living in the god-business, but it's extremely DANGEROUS with regard to cohesion of the gospel message. It's impossible to defend Christianity against encroachment of heretical religious systems like Islam when buzz words and slogans can so easily be adapted by them so as to attack the gospel. I have also studied Islam and was shocked recently when I sat in a Baptist congregation and listened to the sermon of a substitute preacher who quoted Muslim principles to support his theme. Members of the congregation sat in their seats and bobbed their heads - ignorant of the fact the man had succeeded in subverting the gospel in their hearing. Stupidity is not a virtue.