unworthydude

MorningGlory, Some of it is mine. There are places that I do need to add a link to give credit for their scriptural insight. Thanks for bringing this up. I love that you can always edit a post on this forum. That's a nice feature. I first heard this view about 15 years ago and have been researching it for some time now. Some of the scriptures that I've come across, I'm not sure where I picked them all up. I read scripture a lot. God has given me time to study so I praise Him for it! I'm trying to work through other topics that are connected. Harmonization is key. God spoke through and intertwined the scriptures with multiple authors. All telling us from differing perspectives and words, the same messages. It's deeply satisfying when He gifts our minds to catch what He has revealed. It's like a composite of many verses that when layered together paint a picture for our understanding. You have to read and acquaint yourself with all the texts though. If not you will have a fragmented understanding My problem is that my memory is not as good as I'd like it to be. But when I see it, I'll break down in joy because I know God has been very loving to allow me to perceive it all together at once. He is soooo brilliant!

Unworthydude Because if we take into account the Mother Harlot, she has been reigning over all the 7 kingdoms. Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. I think this scripture below answers that Mother description or even the understanding that Paul gives in Galatians 4:22-31. Eze 16:16 You took some of your garments and made for yourself colorful shrines, and on them played the whore. The like has never been, nor ever shall be. Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. First, we have to figure out how the Jewish nation rules or will rule. Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. Did Israel reign over 1. Egypt?, 2. Assyria? 3. Babylon? 4. Medo-Persia? 5. Grecia? 6. Rome? or end time kingdom? Israel will be attacked and oppressed by the end time kingdom (10 kings and False prophet), not ruling. I don't know how Jerusalem reigns over the kings of the earth. I don't know who the 7 kingdoms are but Lord willing, He will show us. I do have theories, though I am not sure. You have given me some food to chew on. I am persuaded that Babylon is Jerusalem but there is so much I don't know. The future of Israel in the world is what is in question and so we can't rule out what is clear for what is obscure. Deut. 29:29 What if the nations that they rule over are the Islamic nations that are round about Israel and they rule over them militarily and they hate them for it. Maybe the conspiracy that the Jews run the banking institutions is what's in mind. Perhaps even their ruling is a spiritual demonic one? I can only think of one that has ruled over all these kingdoms, and over the kings of the earth, and peoples, and multitudes and nations and tongues, since the first kingdom, and that is the King of Babylon, Satan. The Mother Harlot is Satan's woman, spiritually speaking, because she multiplies and gives birth to many children. God has a woman also (spiritually), and her name is called Zion, she multiplies also. This interpretation has a great point. Satan's kingdom is really behind the world's nations. Mat 4:8-9 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. (9) And he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me." I do agree that Satan 'rules over all' the kingdoms on earth but the problem is trying to interpret all the prophetic texts that harmonize around God's chosen city of Jerusalem. If we replace Jerusalem as a filler for Satan then you can add in any nation you want at that point. Scripture does show Jerusalem as a spiritual or symbolic nation of the world... Rev_11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. I think there are good arguments that reveal a Biblical warrant for calling Jerusalem Babylon. If there are scriptures to prove otherwise, I would love to see them! So compare the two. God's woman is giving "truth" required for salvation, and Satan's Woman is offering lies and materials (mammon) for destruction. Definitely true. The slies of Satan are found in the world's kingdoms for sure but it's Jerusalem where God was most misrepresented and betrayed. Satan has been counterfeiting and deceiving people with his false gospel since the garden. The gospel is our dependence on God in Christ where Satan teaches us to be independent. To trust in our ourselves, money or others. Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? That was Israel's sin. How many times did they choose to be independent from God... Even David, when Satan tempted him to number the people in 1Ch 21:1, was relying on himself. The sin to trust in ourselves rather than God is deeply offensive and Satanic. It denies God His rightful rule and authority to provide and care for us. It was also the sin of Nebuchadnezzar and Satan in Isa 14. The gospel is Christ dying and living again for us because we could not please God without Him. We must rely upon Him. Trust in Him by faith. A whore is somebody who is no longer loyal and dependent but seeks to be independent and love others . A whore seeks the care of another rather than a husband/wife to provide for him/her. Israel in Ezek. 16 chose to seek independence rather than dependence on her husband, God. What's amazing is that God in His love still wants Israel back even though she has sought others. He will judge her but ultimately will restore her as His people. When He takes away all her lovers and she has no one else, she will return and lean on her God. Isa_10:20 In that day the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no more lean on him who struck them, but will lean on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. Rom 11:11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. The Mother Harlot used Israel to do this job, one of her daughters, because Israel started serving her. The spirit of Anti-christ came out of Israel, and this spirit shares the same spirit with the Dragon. From Israel, the spirit of Anti-christ has spread. This is of the spirit of Babylon, the same spirit of the Dragon. Israel is not the Mother, because she serves the Mother, and is her daughter, amongst many daughters, but will be punished severely because she was supposed to be serving God. Israel the mother bears the most guilt because she was married. The world had no husband. Yes. absolutely! Israel is the mother. She was married and even had a child metaphorically speaking... Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, The world does have a father.. Joh_8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

inchrist, I readily acknowledge that God will rescue His remnant from the destruction that will come upon Jerusalem. Your repeating the defensive verses were not without agreement on my part. It was nice to see you acknowledge that Israel will suffer some kind of judgment. Although I don't think you have gone far enough. Their defense will follow on the back of a terrible day of wrath, called Jacob's Trouble. Jer 31:1-2 "At that time, declares the LORD, I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they shall be my people." (2) Thus says the LORD: "The people who survived the sword found grace in the wilderness; when Israel sought for rest, Eze 6:9 then those of you who escape will remember me among the nations where they are carried captive, how I have been broken over their whoring heart that has departed from me and over their eyes that go whoring after their idols. And they will be loathsome in their own sight for the evils that they have committed, for all their abominations. Jer 31:7 For thus says the LORD: "Sing aloud with gladness for Jacob, and raise shouts for the chief of the nations; proclaim, give praise, and say, 'O LORD, save your people, the remnant of Israel.' Eze 14:21-22 "For thus says the Lord GOD: How much more when I send upon Jerusalem my four disastrous acts of judgment, sword, famine, wild beasts, and pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast! (22) But behold, some survivors will be left in it, sons and daughters who will be brought out; behold, when they come out to you, and you see their ways and their deeds, you will be consoled for the disaster that I have brought upon Jerusalem, for all that I have brought upon it. If I am supposed to be confused about the two cities then that would make you unconfused? So let's see... you believe that Jerusalem will be suffer a latter day judgement but yet it won't be anything big, even though God is bringing ALL nations against it, right? Rather, you teach that it will be some other unheard of Islamic nation, who's not God's people, who will be worth more judgment than the one who murdered Jesus and continues to rebel against the scriptures to this very day. Even though God's says He "remembered her iniquities" Rev. 18:5. I am trying to be consistent with the fact that God foretold of all the disasters that would come upon His rebellious people all the way back in Deuteronomy 28-30. Somehow I missed where your proof is more persuasive. You say that you have no doubt that Jerusalem will be judged but did you know that God is not just going to judge them as before? It will be as He as never done before. Eze 5:9 And because of all your abominations I will do with you what I have never yet done, and the like of which I will never do again. Jer_30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. If Jerusalem is just a daughter harlot then why do other verses clearly teach the harlotry of God's people? Again, you have to take into account all that it says. I have no idea how you can say that Jerusalem was "merely" the daughter of harlotry. Please read more scripture... Isaiah 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem... 21. How the faithful city has become a harlot, she that was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers. Ezekiel 16:2 "Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations..." Jeremiah 2:2 "Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem, Thus says the LORD, I remember the devotion of your youth, your love as a bride, how you followed me in the wilderness, in a land not sown... 20. "For long ago you broke your yoke and burst your bonds; and you said, 'I will not serve.' Yea, upon every high hill and under every green tree you bowed down as a harlot. Hos 9:1 Rejoice not, O Israel! Exult not like the peoples; for you have played the whore, forsaking your God. You have loved a prostitute's wages on all threshing floors. Eze 16:22 And in all your abominations and your whorings you did not remember the days of your youth, Eze 16:25-26 At the head of every street you built your lofty place and made your beauty an abomination, offering yourself to any passerby and multiplying your whoring. (26) You also played the whore with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors, multiplying your whoring, to provoke me to anger. Eze 16:28-31 You played the whore also with the Assyrians, because you were not satisfied; yes, you played the whore with them, and still you were not satisfied. (29) You multiplied your whoring also with the trading land of Chaldea, and even with this you were not satisfied. (30) "How sick is your heart, declares the Lord GOD, because you did all these things, the deeds of a brazen prostitute, (31) building your vaulted chamber at the head of every street, and making your lofty place in every square. Yet you were not like a prostitute, because you scorned payment. Eze 16:33-35 Men give gifts to all prostitutes, but you gave your gifts to all your lovers, bribing them to come to you from every side with your whorings. (34) So you were different from other women in your whorings. No one solicited you to play the whore, and you gave payment, while no payment was given to you; therefore you were different. (35) "Therefore, O prostitute, hear the word of the LORD: Eze 16:41 And they shall burn your houses and execute judgments upon you in the sight of many women. I will make you stop playing the whore, and you shall also give payment no more. Eze 20:30 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: Will you defile yourselves after the manner of your fathers and go whoring after their detestable things? The 'daughter' language, in Hosea , is biblical imagery of a harlot heritage. It does not mean that they are not prostitutes themselves. It just means that they have a family line of harlots all the way until the last days. Hosea tells you repeatedly that they have played the whore and it is that whoredom that God will deal with "in that day." Hos 2:1-23 Say to your brothers, "You are my people," and to your sisters, "You have received mercy." (2) "Plead with your mother, plead— for she is not my wife, and I am not her husband— that she put away her whoring from her face, and her adultery from between her breasts; (3) lest I strip her naked and make her as in the day she was born, and make her like a wilderness, and make her like a parched land, and kill her with thirst. (4) Upon her children also I will have no mercy, because they are children of whoredom. (5) For their mother has played the whore; she who conceived them has acted shamefully. For she said, 'I will go after my lovers, who give me my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, my oil and my drink.' (6) Therefore I will hedge up her way with thorns, and I will build a wall against her, so that she cannot find her paths. (7) She shall pursue her lovers but not overtake them, and she shall seek them but shall not find them. Then she shall say, 'I will go and return to my first husband, for it was better for me then than now.' (8) And she did not know that it was I who gave her the grain, the wine, and the oil, and who lavished on her silver and gold, which they used for Baal. (9) Therefore I will take back my grain in its time, and my wine in its season, and I will take away my wool and my flax, which were to cover her nakedness. (10) Now I will uncover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and no one shall rescue her out of my hand. (11) And I will put an end to all her mirth, her feasts, her new moons, her Sabbaths, and all her appointed feasts. (12) And I will lay waste her vines and her fig trees, of which she said, 'These are my wages, which my lovers have given me.' I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall devour them. (13) And I will punish her for the feast days of the Baals when she burned offerings to them and adorned herself with her ring and jewelry, and went after her lovers and forgot me, declares the LORD. (14) "Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak tenderly to her. (15) And there I will give her her vineyards and make the Valley of Achor a door of hope. And there she shall answer as in the days of her youth, as at the time when she came out of the land of Egypt. (16) "And in that day, declares the LORD, you will call me 'My Husband,' and no longer will you call me 'My Baal.' (17) For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, and they shall be remembered by name no more. (18) And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety. (19) And I will betroth you to me forever. I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy. (20) I will betroth you to me in faithfulness. And you shall know the LORD. (21) "And in that day I will answer, declares the LORD, I will answer the heavens, and they shall answer the earth, (22) and the earth shall answer the grain, the wine, and the oil, and they shall answer Jezreel, (23) and I will sow her for myself in the land. And I will have mercy on No Mercy, and I will say to Not My People, 'You are my people'; and he shall say, 'You are my God.'" The skeptics of Jesus use the same arguments when they attribute the prophecies to be all just coincidence. I am as sure Babylon is Jerusalem as I am Jesus is the Messiah based on so many prophecies pointing to their last days judgment, restoration and comparisons to each other. Why would the bible record the Beast and his ten horns hating and burning a nation with fire and not be a part of the nations judging Israel as you acknowledge? The entire Bible is Israel-centric. The Bible is a book telling the stories of Israel history and we think that it will just be a slight incident when God brings her into judgment that leads to her reconciliation? A reconciliation that brings Christ back to planet earth? In Hosea the children of the whore are distinct from the children of mercy. Hos 1:6-7 She conceived again and bore a daughter. And the LORD said to him, "Call her name No Mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, to forgive them at all. (7) But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and I will save them by the LORD their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen." Who is the biggest whore ever in God's eyes? Eze 16:16 You took some of your garments and made for yourself colorful shrines, and on them played the whore. The like has never been, nor ever shall be. Let's take a look at more "coincidences" between Jerusalem and Babylon to see if their pedigrees 'match up.'... Both Jerusalem and Babylon are destroyed by forces coming from the north. As Jerusalem was judged by Babylon, she is said to again be judged as Babylon. God has hidden this truth within His literature as a means of 'mystery' that must be sought out. As He does with all His scripture. Jer 1:14 Then the Lord said to me, " Out of the north the evil will break forth on all the inhabitants of the land. 15 "For, behold, I am calling all the families of the kingdoms of the north ," declares the Lord; "and they will come, and they will set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its walls round about, and against all the cities of Judah... 7:34 "Then I will make to cease from the cities of Judah and from the streets of Jerusalem the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride; for the land will become a ruin... 26:2 ...'Stand in the court of the Lord's house, and speak to all the cities of Judah, who have come to worship [in] the Lord's house... 9 ...'This house will be like Shiloh , and this city will be desolate, without inhabitant' Jer 50:1-4 The word that the LORD spoke concerning Babylon, concerning the land of the Chaldeans, by Jeremiah the prophet: (2) "Declare among the nations and proclaim, set up a banner and proclaim, conceal it not, and say: 'Babylon is taken, Bel is put to shame, Merodach is dismayed. Her images are put to shame, her idols are dismayed.' (3) "For out of the north a nation has come up against her, which shall make her land a desolation, and none shall dwell in it; both man and beast shall flee away. (4) "In those days and in that time, declares the LORD, the people of Israel and the people of Judah shall come together, weeping as they come, and they shall seek the LORD their God. Eze 38:15-16 You will come from your place out of the uttermost parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great host, a mighty army. (16) You will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. Dan 11:40-41 "At the time of the end, the king of the south shall attack him, but the king of the north shall rush upon him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen, and with many ships. And he shall come into countries and shall overflow and pass through. (41) He shall come into the glorious land. And tens of thousands shall fall, but these shall be delivered out of his hand: Edom and Moab and the main part of the Ammonites. Jerusalem and Babylon both drink from the cup of the Lord's anger. Isai 51:17 Rouse yourself! Rouse yourself! Arise, O Jerusalem, You who have drunk from the Lord's hand the cup of His anger; The chalice of reeling you have drained to the dregs. Reve 16:19 And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. Jerusalem and Babylon's destruction details foretold in same detail. Rev 17:16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, Eze 16:38-41 “And I will judge you as women who break wedlock or shed blood are judged; I will bring blood upon you in fury and jealousy. I will also give you into their hand, and they shall throw down your shrines and break down your high places. They shall also strip you of your clothes, take your beautiful jewelry, and leave you naked and bare. They shall also bring up an assembly against you, and they shall stone you with stones and thrust you through with their swords. They shall burn your houses with fire, and execute judgments on you in the sight of many women; and I will make you cease playing the harlot, and you shall no longer hire lovers.” – Mystery Babylon is contrasted with the cities of the nations, which suggests that it is not a gentile nation. Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. – Bridegroom and musicians of Babylon and Jerusalem will cease. You say that these passages are just coincidence but have you considered the imagery and seen how it is used only of Israel? (Rev 18:22-23) And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. We see Babylon having the same language used for Israel's destruction. Jer 25:9-11 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the LORD, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. (10) Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp. (11) This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Even more interesting to me is the reason that this particular judgment would come. About five chapters later the same prediction is made again, and it says: Jer 7:30, 34 “’For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight,’ saith the LORD: ‘They have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it…. Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.’” Babylon and Israel surrounded by "water." The many waters are not physical oceans but a metaphor... Rev_17:15 And the angel said to me, "The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. The nation of Israel was placed in the midst of the nations and "sits" in the middle of them... Eze 5:5 "Thus says the Lord GOD: This is Jerusalem. I have set her in the center of the nations, with countries all around her. Look at these other verses that show how this prostitute is seated in the midst of peoples, multitudes and nations and languages. Joe_3:11 Hasten and come, all you SURROUNDING nations, and gather yourselves there. Bring down your warriors, O LORD. 12 Let the nations stir themselves up and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; for there I will sit to judge all the SURROUNDING nations. Zec 12:2-3 "Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the SURROUNDING peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah. (3) On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who lift it will surely hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth will gather against it. Zec_12:6 "On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a blazing pot in the midst of wood, like a flaming torch among sheaves. And they shall devour to the right and to the left all the SURROUNDING peoples, while Jerusalem shall again be inhabited in its place, in Jerusalem. Zec_14:14 Even Judah will fight at Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the SURROUNDING nations shall be collected, gold, silver, and garments in great abundance. Eze_11:12 And ye shall know that I am the LORD: for ye have not walked in my statutes, neither executed my judgments, but have done after the manners of the heathen that are ROUND ABOUT YOU. Eze_16:37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them ROUND ABOUT against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. Eze 28:24 "And for the house of Israel there shall be no more a brier to prick or a thorn to hurt them among all their NEIGHBORS who have treated them with contempt. Then they will know that I am the Lord GOD. Eze 28:26 And they shall dwell securely in it, and they shall build houses and plant vineyards. They shall dwell securely, when I execute judgments upon all their NEIGHBORS who have treated them with contempt. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God." Who kills the prophets? Babylon and the city of Jerusalem identify as both who have killed their prophets. It's consistently taught in both testaments... Rev_16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. It is what they deserve!" Rev_18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against her!" Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets..." Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? 1Th 2:14-15 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, (15) who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind Matthew 23:31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Rom 11:3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." Neh 9:26 "Nevertheless, they were disobedient and rebelled against you and cast your law behind their back and killed your prophets, who had warned them in order to turn them back to you, and they committed great blasphemies. 1 Kings 19:10 He said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." 1 Kings 19:14 Then he said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword. And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." Jerusalem and Babylon attacked by global alliance of nations in the last days. Rev 17:16-17 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, (17) for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. Zec 14:2-4 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (3) Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. (4) On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. Eze 38:15-17 You will come from your place out of the uttermost parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great host, a mighty army. (16) You will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. (17) "Thus says the Lord GOD: Are you he of whom I spoke in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel, who in those days prophesied for years that I would bring you against them? Jerusalem the whore and Babylon the whore are both arrayed in luxury. Rev 17:4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. Rev 18:16 "Alas, alas, for the great city that was clothed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet, adorned with gold, with jewels, and with pearls! Eze 16:10-19 I clothed you also with embroidered cloth and shod you with fine leather. I wrapped you in fine linen and covered you with silk. (11) And I adorned you with ornaments and put bracelets on your wrists and a chain on your neck. (12) And I put a ring on your nose and earrings in your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. (13) Thus you were adorned with gold and silver, and your clothing was of fine linen and silk and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour and honey and oil. You grew exceedingly beautiful and advanced to royalty. (14) And your renown went forth among the nations because of your beauty, for it was perfect through the splendor that I had bestowed on you, declares the Lord GOD. (15) "But you trusted in your beauty and played the whore because of your renown and lavished your whorings on any passerby; your beauty became his. (16) You took some of your garments and made for yourself colorful shrines, and on them played the whore. The like has never been, nor ever shall be. (17) You also took your beautiful jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given you, and made for yourself images of men, and with them played the whore. (18) And you took your embroidered garments to cover them, and set my oil and my incense before them. (19) Also my bread that I gave you—I fed you with fine flour and oil and honey—you set before them for a pleasing aroma; and so it was, declares the Lord GOD. Eze 16:38-41 “And I will judge you as women who break wedlock or shed blood are judged; I will bring blood upon you in fury and jealousy. I will also give you into their hand, and they shall throw down your shrines and break down your high places. They shall also strip you of your clothes, take your beautiful jewelry, and leave you naked and bare. They shall also bring up an assembly against you, and they shall stone you with stones and thrust you through with their swords. They shall burn your houses with fire, and execute judgments on you in the sight of many women; and I will make you cease playing the harlot, and you shall no longer hire lovers.” – Isa 3:16-26 The LORD said: Because the daughters of Zion are haughty and walk with outstretched necks, glancing wantonly with their eyes, mincing along as they go, tinkling with their feet, (17) therefore the Lord will strike with a scab the heads of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will lay bare their secret parts. (18) In that day the Lord will take away the finery of the anklets, the headbands, and the crescents; (19) the pendants, the bracelets, and the scarves; (20) the headdresses, the armlets, the sashes, the perfume boxes, and the amulets; (21) the signet rings and nose rings; (22) the festal robes, the mantles, the cloaks, and the handbags; (23) the mirrors, the linen garments, the turbans, and the veils. (24) Instead of perfume there will be rottenness; and instead of a belt, a rope; and instead of well-set hair, baldness; and instead of a rich robe, a skirt of sackcloth; and branding instead of beauty. (25) Your men shall fall by the sword and your mighty men in battle. (26) And her gates shall lament and mourn; empty, she shall sit on the ground. Jerusalem will come to an end? Once we see that it is the unfaithful whore of Jerusalem that God will judge and bring to an end, then we can see clearly that God will have mercy on His people afterwards. Otherwise, you have a contradiction that you must deal with. For example, below, you have two passages talking about Israel, both speaking about what will happen in the last days in their contexts... Jer_5:18 "But even in those days, declares the LORD, I will not make a full end of you. Hos 1:4 And the LORD said to him, "Call his name Jezreel, for in just a little while I will punish the house of Jehu for the blood of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. Rationally, how can Jerusalem suffer and "end" and yet be said to be the future throne of the Messiah? Your premise assumes that I believe Jerusalem is just evil without taking into consideration of their defense. But, I propose that Israel as a nation will be destroyed but yet a portion of the people will be faithful when they realize and mourn when Christ saves them. They have a location and surviving people who will be restored unto holiness. God will not make "a full end" of them although they as a nation will end. The old Jerusalem will be destroyed and give way to a restored Jerusalem under Jesus. Much like the doctrine of the salvation in Corinthians.. 2Co_5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. When we get saved, our old man must be die so that the new man can live. So too, the old Jerusalem must be destroyed for the new to be established. How do you make sense of these passages without harmonizing them? It's easy to answer for if you acknowledge that God will destroy the unfaithful whore of Israel but yet leave for Himself a remnant. As He did though previous judgments that they suffered through. We must not dismiss this by making light of their judgment when all nations will be brought together to judge them. Minimizing their judgment does not work as you suggest. Hos 1:4 And the LORD said to him, "Call his name Jezreel, for in just a little while I will punish the house of Jehu for the blood of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. Hos 1:5 And on that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel." Hos 1:6-7 She conceived again and bore a daughter. And the LORD said to him, "Call her name No Mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, to forgive them at all. (7) Eze 7:1-3 The word of the LORD came to me: (2) "And you, O son of man, thus says the Lord GOD to the land of Israel: An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land. (3) Now the end is upon you, and I will send my anger upon you; I will judge you according to your ways, and I will punish you for all your abominations. Eze 12:19-20 And say to the people of the land, Thus says the Lord GOD concerning the inhabitants of Jerusalem in the land of Israel: They shall eat their bread with anxiety, and drink water in dismay. In this way her land will be stripped of all it contains, on account of the violence of all those who dwell in it. (20) And the inhabited cities shall be laid waste, and the land shall become a desolation; and you shall know that I am the LORD. Zec 14:11 And it shall be inhabited, for there shall never again be a decree of utter destruction. Jerusalem shall dwell in security. God's great plan is reveal Himself in judgment and mercy on Israel to vindicate His holiness. Eze 5:5-8 "Thus says the Lord GOD: This is Jerusalem. I have set her in the center of the nations, with countries all around her. (6) And she has rebelled against my rules by doing wickedness more than the nations, and against my statutes more than the countries all around her; for they have rejected my rules and have not walked in my statutes. (7) Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you are more turbulent than the nations that are all around you, and have not walked in my statutes or obeyed my rules, and have not even acted according to the rules of the nations that are all around you, (8) therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, even I, am against you. And I will execute judgments in your midst in the sight of the nations. Eze 20:37-38 I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant. (38) I will purge out the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against me. I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD. You say it doesn't make sense for Jerusalem to be Babylon because "the earthly Jerusalem is a type or pattern for the New Jerusalem which is contrasted at every point with Babylon." This "type or pattern" that is contrasted between Babylon and the New Jerusalem is exactly that which matches the earthly Jerusalem in scripture. How can you say that earthly Jerusalem will be judged but yet maintain that earthly Jerusalem is not contrasted with the New Jerusalem? I don't get it. If they're judged then how can they be similar? Please define your typology or pattern for both New Jerusalem and Earthly Jerusalem that accounts for their judgment and holiness. You are absolutely right when you say that Babylon is contrasted with the New Jerusalem. When one compares the earthly Harlot Jerusalem, there is a clear Biblical contrast with the New Jerusalem. It almost seems as if Jerusalem herself is "born-again" in prophecy. Why have a "New Jerusalem" if the old one is still around? Below, God even contrasts their faithfulness with their later harlotry... Jeremiah 2:2 "Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem, Thus says the LORD, I remember the devotion of your youth, your love as a bride, how you followed me in the wilderness, in a land not sown... 20. "For long ago you broke your yoke and burst your bonds; and you said, 'I will not serve.' Yea, upon every high hill and under every green tree you bowed down as a harlot. Of course, once you have the committed belief that Mystery Babylon is Basra, all these passages can be overlooked for a more titillating trendy theory. Modern Zionism is not current to Gods' word. I do believe in a future Jerusalem but a gloried, holy Zion only after Christ returns. Nobody Christian should be extreme by being anti-Semitic. The issues with Israel should not be speculative but solely based and balanced by scripture. On the other end of the extreme spectrum, we should not be overly sympathetic with Israel either. Paul defined for us how we are to view modern Israel in Romans 11. We are to love and honor the Jews but also realize that they are in god's eyes enemies of the cross. Rom 11:28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. This sober assessment must be taken into account. Both perspectives are from God's point of view. We can't believe that they are simply the innocent victims to an antichrist when God has said that He will pour out His wrath on them in order to save them after. God that has not forgotten their sin so we should not emphasis an eschatological perspective that supports Israel without this consideration. We do see Israel as valiant but only after they have gone through judgment and Christ returns leading the armies of God against the nations.. Num 24:14-19 And now, behold, I am going to my people. Come, I will let you know what this people will do to your people in the latter days." (15) And he took up his discourse and said, "The oracle of Balaam the son of Beor, the oracle of the man whose eye is opened, (16) the oracle of him who hears the words of God, and knows the knowledge of the Most High, who sees the vision of the Almighty, falling down with his eyes uncovered: (17) I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near: a star shall come out of Jacob, and a scepter shall rise out of Israel; it shall crush the forehead of Moab and break down all the sons of Sheth. (18) Edom shall be dispossessed; Seir also, his enemies, shall be dispossessed. Israel is doing valiantly. (19) And one from Jacob shall exercise dominion and destroy the survivors of cities!" Here are links to where I have used some of their good arguments from scripture and even added to them. I don't hold to everything expressed, just what I argue for posted here and what I am convinced of. http://www.lookup.org/mysterybabylon.htm http://chriswhiteministries.com/MysteryBabylon/Mystery%20Babylon%20-%20The%20Eschatological%20City%20of%20Jerusalem3.pdf

I discovered the Biblical doctrine of Satan a couple years back while studying another topic of the Bible. It changed my life in massive ways. While dealing with the question of why humans pay for Adam's sin, a book I'd read dealt out several theological options that have been proposed by scholars. The main scriptures on that topic are in Romans 5. After putting down the books, I truly sought God for an answer. In the struggle to understand, God led me to ask to ask the question, "Would Adam and Eve have sinned if Satan was not in the Garden?" I came to the conclusion, "no", they would not have sinned. It was Satan who initially tempted Eve (2 Cor 11:3). The progenitor of sin who propagates evil throughout humanity is the one who ensures that every human born is also deceived as Adam and Eve were. What really happened in the garden? This led me to see from scripture a bigger picture. I started to collect verses and I made the discovery that changed everything for me. I got it. I understood what God was showing me. What happened in the garden is that when Adam and Eve obeyed Satan rather than God, Satan was given authority over mankind. In other words, Satan gained a kingdom. The kingdom of man became the kingdom of Satan. When we obeyed Satan he became our master. Joh_8:34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. Look how Satan was given the kingdoms of the earth... Luk 4:5-6 The devil also took him to a high place and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in an instant. (6) He told Jesus, "I will give you all this authority, along with their glory, because it has been given to me, and I give it to anyone I please. Man fell into Satan's Kingdom. Continue to look at these verses below... 1Jn 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. Joh 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, 2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. Act 26:18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' Luk 11:18 And if Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul. Mat 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. Mat 4:9 And he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me." Mat 13:36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field." 37 He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 2Ti 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, (14) in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. Rev 2:13 "'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells 1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Luk 1:79 to give light to those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Act 26:18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' 1Th 5:5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. Gal 4:8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, I've definitely got more on this topic but I don't want to put too much or you won't want to read it...

Oops...I don't believe they wanted His literal blood on them, I assumed it was his guilt as you believe too. I just used the same language the text used even though it meant guilt. Sorry for the confusion. I'll get rid of that side note as it doesn't really have much to do with what I was saying anyways. I came across it and found it interesting how the people wanted the guilt of Jesus's death upon them. That is crazy to me.

Yeah, I'm glad you appreciated it. I like to work out how I see things. It helps me to see where my arguments are weak and where I have to reconsider. I don't want to be a teacher but a learner. Sometimes I'll argue a point to the death only to realize that my arguments were weak and that I need to give them up. Especially with eschatology. I only want to believe the truth and it takes negating the weak arguments by reasoning together to expose the error. So again, thanks for the dialogue! So, I'll try and give a stab at it again. You've made some great arguments. In trying to find an answer as to why Israel would be guilty of 'all the slain' or how anybody could be guilty of "all the slain" is difficult but I think the best answer is in seeing that the law was a whole unit to be kept. This biblical doctrine of imputation of legal culpability a.k.a., sin, being transferred to another person can also be found in the fall of Adam into Satan's kingdom, our representative (Romans 5) and in Christ bearing the sin of others but also imputing righteousness to others (2Co 5:21). Sins committed under the law fall into the larger category of covenant. The law was even called the "words of the covenant". Exo_34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. Israel being found guilty of all sin is another way saying that they are not under Jesus but under Satan as children. It's positional language. This is especially seen in how Jesus would talk to the Jews and attribute to them a Satanic heritage. This is the same classification that we see with Babylon. The only reason Israel is the mother is that she is the first to be judged. Rom 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 1Pe_4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? I don't think Babylon, the mother, can be the cause of all sin. The word mother does connote children and the origin of sin but I think it still is within the greater legal framework of having broken the covenant. The Jews were not only guilty but influenced others to be guilty. Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. This can be explained, not by the Jews having spawned all evil but by how sin operates in general. Sinners who love sin, love to sin with others. Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. Rather, I see the 'mother' language as a emphasis of culpability. Much like Paul saying: 1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. The role of Israel as a mother is seen in Galatians where she bears this categorical emphasis. You can see here how there is another mother from above . The heavenly Jerusalem is here contrasted to another mother who is one of bondage. What proves my argument is the fact the the children are heirs of either of these two mothers as legal systems of guilt or innocence, bondage or freedom. Gal 4:25-31 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (27) For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. (28) Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. (29) But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. (30) Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. (31) So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. The bondage of sin is the legal covenant of Moses. Gal_3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. Gal_3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. We have to keep in mind that this mother of all abominations is going to be judged just as all other nations are going to be judged too. Jer_46:28 Fear not, O Jacob my servant, declares the LORD, for I am with you. I will make a full end of all the nations to which I have driven you, but of you I will not make a full end. I will discipline you in just measure, and I will by no means leave you unpunished." The sins of Israel are just at the top of the chopping block. The nations will see the judgement of God on Israel first and by this they will know God and many will saved before He judges their own nations. Eze 39:21-26 "And I will set my glory among the nations, and all the nations shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid on them. (22) The house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God, from that day forward. (23) And the nations shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity, because they dealt so treacherously with me that I hid my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they all fell by the sword. (24) I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their transgressions, and hid my face from them. (25) "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for my holy name. (26) They shall forget their shame and all the treachery they have practiced against me, when they dwell securely in their land with none to make them afraid,

I currently have three theories on Daniel. I know none one believes this, but hey, I read it for myself, between God and I. I'll try and be as succinct as possible. My Theory 1: The visions given to Daniel expand in detail of the same culminating events. The main thing to harmonize is the fourth kingdom and the antichrist details. Each vision chapter unfolds more and more details of the precious vision. The 4 kingdoms are only those kingdoms that lead to the antichrist final kingdom. Babylon=Gold=Lion > Medo-Persia=Silver= Bear and Ram > Greece=Bronze=Leopard and Goat > Antichrist kingdom=Iron. There is no Rome depicted. The goat attacks the ram= Greece attacks Persia. Greece splits into four kingdoms. Out of one these kingdoms comes the final future antichrist 4th kingdom. My Theory 2. The visions of Daniel are all future kingdoms in the same geographic territories. Babylon represents future Iraq or Israel > Medo-Persia represents Iran or Iraq/both >Greece represents Turkey and the 4th kingdom is all of them combined under the antichrist. Rev 13:2. My Theory 3. Based on Zachariah 1:21 and Hosea 13:7-8, we see the Lord sends four nations to judge Israel. If we try to harmonize these four historic king nations with Daniel it paints a different picture. The kings who have judged Israel in the past are not consecutive nations who follow succession. We have Babylon=Nebuchadnezzar > Greece= Antiochus IV Epiphanes > Rome=Titus > antichrist=? Cyrus the Persian was kind to Israel and sent them back to build to Jerusalem to build their temple. As far as the 7 heads and 10 horns, I think they could be as Serving has described.. 7 historic nations and one of them is the final beast who has 10 horns. 1. Egypt 2. Assyria 3. Babylon. 4. Persia 5. Greece. 6. Rome. 7.? 8.? It could also be that these 7 nations are all futuristic nations comprising a set that is not part of the antichrist kingdom. I'm not too sure. Love the discussion though!

Great critique! I've given a long answer but if you don't want to read it all, at least read the last section at the bottom. It answers your question. I think this can be explained by harmonizing the texts and understanding how God views and exemplifies Israel. Look at Matthew. Here, Jesus is referring to the leaders of Jerusalem. He personifies them as Jerusalem. Mat 23:29-38 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, (30) saying, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' (31) Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. (32) Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. (33) You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? (34) Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, (35) so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. (36) Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! (38) See, your house is left to you desolate. I agree with you that Jesus is referring to Satan's offspring here. Especially when He says, "you are sons of those who murdered the prophets." and "You serpents, you brood of vipers." This can also be seen in Isa 14:12-22... Isa 14:12-22 (12) "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! (13) You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; (14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' (15) But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit. (16) Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, (17) who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?' (18) All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb; (19) but you are cast out, away from your grave, like a loathed branch, clothed with the slain, those pierced by the sword, who go down to the stones of the pit, like a dead body trampled underfoot. (20) You will not be joined with them in burial, because you have destroyed your land, you have slain your people. "May the offspring of evildoers nevermore be named! (21) Prepare slaughter for his sons because of the guilt of their fathers, lest they rise and possess the earth, and fill the face of the world with cities." (22) "I will rise up against them," declares the LORD of hosts, "and will cut off from Babylon name and remnant, descendants and posterity," declares the LORD (23)"And I will make it a possession of the hedgehog, and pools of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction," declares the LORD of hosts. (24) The LORD of hosts has sworn: "As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand, (25) that I will break the Assyrian in my land, and on my mountains trample him underfoot; and his yoke shall depart from them, and his burden from their shoulder." (26) This is the purpose that is purposed concerning the whole earth, and this is the hand that is stretched out over all the nations. (27) For the LORD of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back? (28) In the year that King Ahaz died came this oracle: (29) Rejoice not, O Philistia, all of you, that the rod that struck you is broken, for from the serpent's root will come forth an adder, and its fruit will be a flying fiery serpent. (30) And the firstborn of the poor will graze, and the needy lie down in safety; but I will kill your root with famine, and your remnant it will slay. (31) Wail, O gate; cry out, O city; melt in fear, O Philistia, all of you! For smoke comes out of the north, and there is no straggler in his ranks. (32) What will one answer the messengers of the nation? "The LORD has founded Zion, and in her the afflicted of his people find refuge." That last verses after Isa 14:22-32 are very interesting because he again brings up Babylon in the context of Satan's offspring. You can see that God is going to destroy Babylon and all her children by "the Assyrian" who comes out of the north then get's trampled on Israel's mountains. This is exactly the same scenario we see all throughout scripture revealing the anti-christ. Ezek. 38 lines up to this amazingly. These evil children are always in reference to Israel. Not to say that Satan doesn't have children who are gentiles. A matter of fact many evil gentiles were those who attacked Israel but Israel was still the main focus. Scripture deals mainly with Israel's responsibility. These children of the devil go back in history. Look up "Children of Belial". Keep in mind that Jesus's main priority and scripture's emphasis has always been Israel. Gentiles are a secondary people in His spiritual plan. Mat_2:6 "'And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.'" Mat_15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." There are two people groups in Israel from God's perspective. The spiritual and the carnal. He even calls one of them the 'Synagogue of Satan'. Rom 2:28-29 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. (29) But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. Rom_9:6 ... For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, My main argument here is that Jesus is still referring to the actual Jewish people and to their city Jerusalem when He calls them Babylon. They are the people that God has told his story from. The book of Revelation is inspired by the same Spirit who wrote the rest of scripture and so we must see all that was written on the issue and harmonize it. Through the Old and New Testament, the emphasis was on Israel and distinguishing between God's kingdom and Satan's kingdoms on earth. Jerusalem was meant to be a holy city, Zion, a people of God. His kingdom on earth. Instead, it became a leader in the devil's kingdom who murdered the Son of God and His offspring. How much more Satanic can you get in murdering the Son of God? Act 7:51-52 "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. (52) Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered, The Satanic children can be best represented by those of Israel who reject God. These represent the whore of Babylon. Ezekiel 16. Eze 16:38 And I will judge you as women who commit adultery and shed blood are judged, and bring upon you the blood of wrath and jealousy. Israel is God's chosen people and when they rejected Him, He is going to judge them as Satan's children and not His. All their guilt of unbelief will be paid back to them. Joh_8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Mat 8:11-12 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, (12) while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." If they don't want to inherit God's blessings then they will inherit the Devil's reward. Anybody who goes to hell inherits the guilt of 'all who have been slain' on the earth by the very fact that they all go to the same place. It's only Israel's sin that is being focused in scripture. Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. The history of Israel is documented from God's perspective. We see their struggle to be faithful and eventually their stories confirm Israel is a major part in God's salvation plan on earth. His judgment and restoration of them will signify the climax of the end of the world as we know it. A city can epitomize Satan but Israel epitomizes us sinners in the Biblical theology found in scripture. Their sin and fulfillment from law covenant to grace covenant is the basis for establishing the spiritual teachings of the New Testament. Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Remember, Israel was a physical representation of spiritual realities. They had prophetic types and shadows that had spiritual fulfillment in Christ. Their physical restoration is a picture of our spiritual restoration. Their guilt is a picture of all guilt. Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Anybody who dies under the law is guilty of it all. Even "all the slain on earth." We know that it was Israel's specific sin in wanting to remain under law. They were self righteous and refused to receive the gift of God in Christ by faith.. Rom_10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Praise God he will deliver us from our sins as He will also deliver them! Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

The Bible describes cities anthropomorphically. When speaking about a city God uses language as if it is a person. The thing to keep in mind is that He also describes buildings, some literal and some metaphorical. The Jerusalem in bondage to sin, a whore and unfaithful is the city of people to be destroyed by the nations as a judgment. Current Jerusalem is not just a location. When Jesus comes back He restores a new faithful people who make up a new city. The city is His people and not just literal bricks and temple. Look how Jesus talks to "Jerusalem" the city. Luk_13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! New Jerusalem is even called a bride. Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21:9-10 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb." (10) And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, The church is a spiritual house made of living stones and a cornerstone, Christ. 1Pe 2:5-6 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (6) For it stands in Scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame." When Jesus comes back, old Jerusalem will already be destroyed and what He recreates will be a new city of heavenly people in a new earthly Israel with a city again called Jerusalem. It will be a camp and a beloved place where His people rule until the heavens and earth pass away entirely and the heavenly Jerusalem becomes our eternal home and city. Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, If there is no heaven or earth, how does the New Jerusalem come down? Look what happens to current Jerusalem...It suffers a "decree of utter destruction". Zec 14:8-11 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea. It shall continue in summer as in winter. (9) And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one. (10) The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft on its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's winepresses. (11) And it shall be inhabited, for there shall never again be a decree of utter destruction. Jerusalem shall dwell in security.

True, other cities were called great but not in the context of Revelation. Why go to the book of Jonah to interpret Revelation? Why should we look deeper when John clearly says that Jerusalem is called the great city. Why rule out Jerusalem as a great city in the book of Revelation when it clearly fits. If you look up the words "great city", Jerusalem is the only city called by that term by John. What's interesting too is that Jerusalem is also called Sodom and Egypt metaphorically. Then after that we see this great city being called Babylon. It's pretty clear if you understand the long awaited prophecies of the Old Testament Rev_11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Rev_11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. Rev_17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Rev_18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. Rev_18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! Rev_18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! Rev_18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. Rev_18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. Rev_21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Exactly. Earthly Jerusalem will be "desolated", a.k.a., destroyed... Never to be found again. Based on your argument, why is it necessary for God to bring with Him a "New Jerusalem" if the current one is fine? The eternal Jerusalem is not the earthly one but a heavenly one. Gal 4:25-26 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Heb_12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, Heb 11:15-16 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. (16) But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. There are two Jerusalems. One of them has a future the other does not. One is a bride and the other is a whore. This is clear all over the Old Testament. I know you don't "see" it but I pray God will show you as He opened my eyes. It's so clear that when you see it, it will open up so much of the prophets to you. I have been overwhelmed by His Spirit in this discovery. It truly is the truth. Read Hosea, Zachariah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc. with this perspective and you will know. The Bible is Israel-centric to God's plan. We Christians are a side show, grafted in to the tree. Rom 11:11-12 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (12) Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Serving, I love your harmonization of the Word. There s so much scripture to do this to. I love it! You are on the right path friend. Go on... You got me loving where you are headed. You got me hungry and I've got my forks out ready to feast into the Word!! I especially like that you are able to read the Word above what man teaches. Yup smh up and down

Start by reading Ezek 16 and you'll understand why Jerusalem is the whore. The major and minor prophets all reveal God's broken heart and His great plan to reconcile with Israel (e.g., your signature). His people rejected Him for other lovers. In the end, He is going to turn their lovers against them. You'll weep like I did when you understand God's rejection. He sorrows and grieves. Why unworthy? Luk_17:10 So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.'"

No joke. I don't know why anybody would refuse such an offer of grace. Being here is cold, lonely and difficult. And this is not even hell!! Can you imagine giving up heaven for hell and knowing that there? How deeply and incredibly angry I would be at myself. Not to mentioned how ashamed I'd feel knowing how I'd rejected His Son who died for me. I'm so scared of this life I can't even imagine what worse will look like. I think Satan's number goal was removing the fear of God in Adam and Eve and even us. He tries to remove the consequence of sin but He only postpones it. Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

I believe that Mystery Babylon = Jerusalem. Anybody else here see it? Here are some arguments... 1. Jerusalem kills prophets. -Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth." -Luk_13:33 Nevertheless, I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the day following, for it cannot be that a prophet should perish away from Jerusalem.' 2. Jerusalem is called the “Great City” in Rev 11:8. Babylon in called the “Great City” in 17:18. -Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. -Rev 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. 3. The city where "All who were slain on the earth" are. -Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth." -Mat 23:35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah... God bless you brothers and sisters!

I don't believe that the tribes of Jospeh/Ephraim or Judah are nations as you describe them. They are prophetically described by God as two ancestral people groups who were exiled and can be defined as such even though they are today known only as Jews. "Jew" came from Judah and is not an accurate term as many "Jews" today are not from Judah but the other tribes, as the 144,000 verses in the book of Rev. attests to. God knows them intimately. When he scattered their nation, did they stop being his people? No, they still existed and this very fact is established all throughout the prophetic passages where he will bring them back together. How can that be if they were not a nation as you say? I also don't believe that the scholars have Daniel 11 right or much else on eschatology so I guess we are at an impasse. I encourage you to read it on your own apart from what the scholars teach. Did that, been there. The interpretive methodologies developed from higher criticism have done much harm to how God intended His Word to be read in harmonization. Just read Daniel and correlate the vision chapters for similarities and you'll see Daniel 11 is not yet fulfilled. Hey, it was nice rapping with you. I was hoping you'd clarify your position more. I don't want to press these issues further as that might be divisive. Thanks for sharing. It always helps to clarify one's own position when hearing what others believe. God bless you man. Hope the Lord blesses you in your studies!

Thanks WilliamL. Everyday I find something new and it changes how I understand it all. That is why I say, 'I have theories.' It's good to talk to someone who also delves into the Word. Kudos. Ok, let's continue to dig together... You say no but both broken staffs in Zech 11 follow the detestable shepherds who eventually murder Jesus, causing God to annul the covenant. What else has caused the covenant to be changed? (Mar 12:9, Eph 2:14-16) I see no reason, exegetically, to say that the breaking of the staff, 'Ties that bind' is not also a consequence of the same crimes. Before Christ, they both had the temple to unite them. but after 70 A.D. they and Judah were separated by location. God had thrown them out of the land. They both had come back from exile and it would seem that the temple and land was what held them together in solidarity. Maybe, the future temple will be something that brings a false unity between Judah and Ephraim? What's your theory exactly? Ezr_8:35 At that time those who had come from captivity, the returned exiles, offered burnt offerings to the God of Israel, twelve bulls for all Israel, ninety-six rams, seventy-seven lambs, and as a sin offering twelve male goats. All this was a burnt offering to the LORD. Looking at whether Judah has any brotherhood within the middle east, I'm finding evidence otherwise... First from scripture... 2Ki_18:11 The king of Assyria carried the Israelites away to Assyria and put them in Halah, and on the Habor, the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Iran http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1442787/jewish/The-Jews-of-Iran.htm There is also the high probability that many Israelites, historically exiled to Assyria and these middle east cities, no longer know their ancestry. Perhaps, they will only be known when Jesus returns? Tell me your thoughts... Are you thinking that the US is the brotherhood of Judah? That's an interesting idea there. I'll have to think about that and read those passages thoroughly. I had thought that Daniel 11:6 could be a mentioning of the USA. Scripture uses the term "daughter" to refer to nations who share some kind of metaphorical relationship, such as: daughter of Babylon, thy sister Sodom, daughter of Edom, etc... If you read in Daniel 11:6, the King of the South = Israel, gets attacked by a King of the North. A king of the north is mentioned in Ezekiel 38 who comes down to specifically attack Israel. There are many passages stating this. The antichrist will come out of the north. The daughter of the King of the south comes and makes an agreement with the king of the north but her "arm" fails and cannot sustain the king of the south. Dan 11:6 And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times. That sounds like the USA to me. We are becoming less and less a super power. Aren't we headed for a financial collapse? What do you think?

You are asking the right questions. I have theories. 1. Based on Zach 11:13, the union was broken when they paid Judas and murdered Jesus. 2. Israel is all the northern tribes, a.k.a. "Ephraim". "Judah" is the two southern tribes. (Isa 11:13) 3. "Ephraim" are northern Assyrian Israelites perhaps living in Syria, Turkey and Iran? Jews from Judah are southern Jerusalem Israelites. What is very interesting is that Ezekiel prophecies that God will reunite them both, at the end. (Ezek 37:15-28) To get even deeper, the antichrist, who God will send against Judah/Jerusalem is called the Assyrian throughout the prophets. (Isa 14:25, Isa 31:8, Mic 5:5-6) What do you think?

Interesting topic. Thanks Dele!

I can relate. There was this time when God had placed some heavy burdens upon me and without realizing it I had become disappointed and even angry with Him. It was not until I had a vision while I was asleep that I understood. In my dream, I had begun flagrantly sinning against Him but I suddenly woke up, sort of like when you wake up and realize you have to pee. I freaked out because I had realized what I was doing was really evil and that I was doing it out of anger against God. When I went back to sleep I had another vision. I saw/felt the Lord Jesus come to me and confront me to my face and told me this, "You will be brought to my court. I will not be brought to yours." As I shuttered in fear to wake up, I had a verse come into my mind...Luke 12:47. It struck me very severely as I realized that my anger was misplaced. It was not my anger that I had to concern myself with, it was His. As we all are, I still have sins that I struggle with. I woke up in tears and fearful of the Lord. He had set me straight and now I walk in brokenness. It's a good place. My suffering was very difficult but after that dream I discovered God's love for me in the struggle. He'd taken me down that road to expose my sinful heart and dealt with my quiet anger. He knows the areas that need to be dealt with in each of us. Like a loving parent. Rev_3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. I'm not saying this is exactly what you are going through. The Lord has His reasons for what you are experiencing. One day He will show you why and you will want to praise Him without shame. Life is a test of faith and I pray your faith will shine and overcome all the arrows of the enemy. Remember, the devil is God's devil and nothing can harm you but by the sovereign will of God. The book of Job shows this clearly. God proved His love for you in Jesus Christ. His redemption will be in totality. He loves you. Psa 34:18-19 The LORD is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit. (19) Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the LORD delivers him out of them all. https://youtu.be/l2zHk95UnsE