TrevorL

Greetings again WilliamL, I appreciate your response, but this made me realise that we have different perspectives on much of end-time prophecy. For my part I have established in my mind a basic framework, and then understood some of the detail within this framework. Some of the framework itself has been arrived at by considering some of the detail, giving more weight to some passages than others. Both the framework and detail has been arrived at by the teaching environment within my immediate and larger fellowship, some by listening to preferred expositors, and some by personal study. Within my environment there has been a reasonable ebb and flow of people and ideas, and we gradually accept and absorb some of this, and reject some that does not seem reasonable. When I look at your latest responses, there are significant differences of view, and I think it would be difficult to come to an overall agreement. I would mainly like to point out my difference of perspective. I believe that the little horn of the goat is the Roman power as it developed in the Eastern portion of the Roman Empire. It grew out of Pergamos and then Daniel 8:9 (KJV): And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. I also believe that the following defines the 2300 years from BC 334-333 to AD 1967, and that Jesus alludes to Daniel 8 in the Mount Olivet prophecy in Matthew and Luke:: Daniel 8:13-14 (KJV): 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Matthew 24:15-18 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Luke 21:20-24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The reason why they were to pray that their flight would not be on the Sabbath Day in AD 70 was that since the days of Nehemiah the city gates were shut during the Sabbath. There is no reasonable explanation of this prophecy in relation to the future invasion, especially a few stone throwing Orthodox Jews, and I also believe that when the northern invader comes to Jerusalem the faithful will already be gathered to the Lord. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again WilliamL, I appreciate your response. I certainly do not agree with the Preterist perspective. Yes, this verse does cause a difficulty in my mind, but I still continue to support my application of Matthew 24:15-18 as being applicable to AD 70 and in parallel with Luke 21:20-24. In seeking a resolution of this I thought it possible that it is at this point the double application of this prophecy kicks in, then I thought that "immediately" could possibly have the idea of "suddenly", rather than speak of an immediate time after the previous verse, and a third alternative would be to take the words of Matthew 24:29 as symbolic language describing the destruction of the Jewish system of things. At this stage I have not decided if any of these are satisfactory, so until I decide I am willing to place the problem in the too hard basket. Another reason why I continue to advocate Matthew 24:15-18 as being AD 70 is that I am convinced that the Abomination that makes desolate is quoting / alluding to Daniel 8, and this passage is not speaking of the latter days, but the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 by the Roman little horn of the goat. I appreciate your patience with me. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again WilliamL, I still believe that Matthew 24: 15-20 and Luke 21: 20-24 are parallel for the reasons stated in my earlier Posts, mainly the same terms used in each and the fact that the warnings about fleeing the city are not applicable to present day believers. Also the Abomination of Desolation is referring to Daniel 8, and this is the little horn of the goat, the Eastern, military aspect of the Roman Empire. Also I believe that Matthew most probably wrote for the Jewish believers, and thus the events surrounding AD70 was an important prophecy for them. Matthew's account would need to be complete, as again I believe it would have been written earlier than Luke's record. As such Matthew's record needed to include an answer to when the Temple was to be destroyed, which was one of the questions in Matthew 24:1-3. So in a sense I have a difficulty with your claim in the following: I take the following as also in parallel with your suggested "key verse" Matthew 24:21. Luke 21:23-24 (KJV): 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. My only explanation is that for the Jews of AD 70 there was the wiping out of the nation of Judah, their priesthood, their Temple and their Holy City. In the future there will be a time of trouble, but even though Israel will be involved in this and suffer judgements, this will not be so severe as far as Israel is concerned. The nations are going to suffer severely and the words of Daniel apply to them at the Battle of Armageddon, but Jesus is going to intervene and rescue and convert the Jews at this time of trouble. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings n2thelight, This is where I disagree. It seems to mix two different strands. The Anti-Christ is the Papacy a religious entity and his temple is in Rome and claims to be or is spoken of as "the holy father", but the King of the North who will be similar to the Roman desolator of AD 70 will be a military power. The first is the subject mentioned in Daniel 7 as the little horn of the fourth beast, while the latter is the little horn of the goat in Daniel 8 and also mentioned in Daniel 11:40-45. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again WilliamL, Are you suggesting all of the following in Matthew applies to the future, while that of Luke applies to AD 70? Matthew 24: 15-20 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Luke 21: 20-24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings WilliamL, Matthew’s account is also speaking of AD 70: Matthew 24:1-3: And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? The abomination that desolated Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70 was the Roman army. Matthew's and Luke's records are parallel, recording the same conversation of Jesus. Luke's record locks in when the believers were to flee Jerusalem. There will be mainly Jews and Arabs in Jerusalem when the future King of the North invades Jerusalem at the time of the end. The words of Jesus in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 were not particularly directed to these Jews and Arabs. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings SINNERSAVED, Matthew 24:15-18 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. The above words were spoken by Jesus to the Apostles and were also applicable to the believers in Jerusalem before the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. These words are not applicable to the Gentiles of the current era immediately before the return of Jesus. The parallel account in Luke that you failed to quote shows this more clearly, and Luke speaks of the long period of time that Jerusalem was to be trodden down by the Gentiles. This period is already coming to an end, as the Jews retook Jerusalem in 1967. Luke 21:20-24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Adding Daniel 11 to the above creates confusion. You need to look at Daniel 8 first. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again WilliamL, My understanding of this subject is first based on Genesis 2-3, where man, not his body only is to return to the dust and Genesis 2:7 gives a definition of the soul, and this is not an immortal part of man that separates at death. Paul quotes Genesis 2:7 in 1 Corinthians 15 where it seems he was facing some form of Greek philosophy, that could have included immortal souls or Platoism. Paul taught the resurrection. I have carefully examined their teaching, but I have not come under the influence of the SDAs, as I believe in the 1000 years upon the earth, while the SDAs believe that the earth will be burnt and desolate during the 1000 years. I have not heard a reasonable explanation of Acts 3:19-21 from them, and these verses are absent from all their books and literature that I possess, but I suppose they have explained it (away?) somewhere. These verses clearly teach that Jesus will not be in heaven during the 1000 years, and that the earth will be refreshed and restored during that time. As far as influence or environment is concerned, my Sunday School teacher's favourite verses were the following, and although he never spelt it out at the time, these verses taught me eventually that the Bible promises are not centred in Heaven, but the future Kingdom of God upon the earth. Genesis 13:14-15 (KJV): 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. Galatians 3:8,16,26-29 (KJV): 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. He not only taught us these verses in Sunday School, but he sometimes gave the Sunday Evening Address. He used to conclude his talk with the above verses. On one occasion as my concentration lapsed, when the speaker took a pause near the end, my mate dug me in the ribs, and said a few seconds before the speaker: "And now in conclusion we will turn to Genesis 13:14-15". I will let you assess if this is giving heed to a man, or to the verses that I consider he faithfully expounded. I mentioned this incident to my mate recently, who I had not seen for 30 years, but he could not recall this, nor particularly his emphasis of these verses, but it certainly has remained with me all these years. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again WilliamL, I appreciate the response. We could discuss heaven going at length and you could select one after another of the many Scriptures that are usually quoted in support of this teaching. I have decided not to become further involved with this aspect in this thread, partly as it is off topic. To simply state my position, I believe that man is mortal, that is subject to death, and that he returns to the dust. Apart from the resurrection he will have ceased to exist. I believe this is the NT and OT teaching and that the common teaching of immortal souls is derived from Pagan and Greek Philosophy. The main Church teaching surrounds heaven and hell at death and this has mainly replaced the Apostolic teaching of the return of Christ, and the resurrection and the Kingdom of God on earth for 1000 years. This subject does affect how we understand the subject of this thread, the rapture, but I have stated in a number of Posts my disagreement with heaven going at death or at the return of Jesus. Another concept that has been introduced, the 70-week prophecy also affects how we view the events surrounding the return of Christ. For my part I cannot accept the view that part of the 70-week prophecy is split off, and is still future and applied to the return of Jesus. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again WilliamL and Ezra, I claim that my understanding is based upon many Scriptures and the simple literal interpretation of these, or simply what these directly state. I agree that the faithful will be united with Christ at his coming. I differ in my understanding of the detail that you present. You have correctly assessed my understanding. As 1 Thessalonians 4 states those taken from them were dead, and they were asleep. The hope of these believers was to be reunited with the departed at the return of Christ. Paul's hope at the time of his departure was the return of Christ, not being rewarded immediately by going to heaven. 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick (or living) and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. As far as funerals are concerned, we have recently laid to rest my mother-in-law. She had been a widow for 36 years, but is now asleep with her husband in a twin grave. They both have the inscription: Here rests Fred (Vera) waiting the return of the Lord from heaven. The next conscious moment of Fred will be at the resurrection, when he will be reunited with Vera who he had farewell-ed 36 years earlier than her own departure. I believe that Genesis 1-3 teaches that as a result of Adam's sin he was sentenced to return to the dust. The following speaks of that day and describes those waiting as sleeping in the dust, figurative language for those that have suffered death, and yet are waiting for the return of our Lord. Daniel 12:1-3 (KJV): 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Please note in the above that the resurrection is also spoken here as in the time of trouble and also the language "the brightness of the firmament" and "stars" is figurative, or similar to the language used in 1 Thessalonians 4 "clouds" and "air". Kind regards Trevor

Greetings 7Dove77, I am not sure if I fully understand your earlier comments, and also have difficulty with your next Post. But I would like to consider the following as we could have some agreement here: 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (KJV): 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (or precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. Note that it speaks of those who have died as “them that sleep in Jesus” v14, and “them which are asleep” v15. V16 then describes the return of Jesus and he first raises the dead, that is, figuratively awakening them from their sleep. Jesus and these resurrected faithful will then be united with the faithful who are alive at the return of Jesus. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again WilliamL, I can agree that the word "up" could be added to harmonise with the context, but if the whole of this is figurative language then the believers may not be literally elevated above the earth. The whole context is speaking of the reuniting of the faithful with their recently deceased brethren or sisters. It is interesting that Paul's comfort is different to most funerals where the minister or pastor claims that those deceased are now in heaven. Paul comforts them concerning the return of Jesus and the reuniting with the previously deceased at that time. My understanding of the first, second and third heaven is different. I regard the second heaven to be the 1000 years, and the third heaven to be after the 1000 years. So the word "up" is not necessarily appropriate here, possibly "away unto" is one suggestion. The concept of a "new heaven and earth" is also tied in with the figurative language of "clouds" and "air". Interesting bit of information. I recently obtained the 20-Volume Oxford English Dictionary at a 2nd-hand book sale. I will add your comment to my growing list of words to check when I have time. I enjoy finding the derivation and history of words. But Jesus was taken up and has remained in heaven for 2000 years. He is soon to return to reign on earth for 1000 years. Why take the believers back to heaven? Kind regards Trevor

Greetings WilliamL and enoob57, I appreciate the comment, but I do not know exactly what Scriptures you would suggest. Neither do I know what you expect the sequence of events will be at the return of Christ. To me Jesus is returning to judge the believers and the world, and I do not see the need to go to heaven as part of this process. The word translated "caught up" does not of itself contain the direction of the motion, but has the idea of “take by force”. The following two verses illustrate this: John 6:15 (KJV): When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. Acts 8:39 (KJV): And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. Of the two verses the second has a similar concept, in that the Spirit transported Philip away by means of God’s Power from the Eunuch. When Christ returns the faithful will also be snatched or caught away. I believe that the clouds are symbolic or figurative language, and “the air” is not heaven, but the atmosphere of the earth, but again here used in a figurative sense. I appreciate the interesting list of quotations. I would agree with these except Revelation 16:1 I apply to earlier than the Lord's return, and Peter would not have known this verse as yet. There could be many others added. I would have included some of my favourites. For example the phrase “all things” appears to be quoting or alluding to Psalm 8:6, a verse that is quoted and expounded throughout the NT and some of this exposition is in respect to the future work of Jesus when he returns. Psalm 8:5-6 (KJV): 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: I agree with most of what you say, but salvation and forgiveness was never going to be by the Law. Paul in Romans gives Abraham (before the Law) and David (who was under the Law) as prime examples that justification was by faith, and that forgiveness was by grace even in OT times. The Law was only a temporary addition. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings enoob57, I agree wholeheartedly with your claim and we need to continually allow the Word to guide our thoughts and understanding 2 Timothy 3:14-16. What I have encountered though is ten or more different opinions from those who claim to be Spirit-guided. Could you please give a brief explanation of your understanding of Acts 3:19-21? Does this teach that Jesus will be in Heaven? What do the terms "times of refreshing" and "times of restitution or restoration" represent? What portion of the prophets do you suggest Peter is speaking about and possibly actually quoted in his speech, as Luke's record appears to be only a summary of the speech? Kind regards Trevor

Greetings WilliamL, I appreciate your response, but I do not accept the description concerning sight or lack thereof. My assessment is that we have been in different environments as far as the understanding of the Kingdom of God. I could quote many passages in support of my understanding, and from my perspective these are overwhelming in teaching the Kingdom of God on earth for 1000 years. When I consider the early chapters of Acts, Acts 1 and the two speeches in Acts 2,3 I find no teaching of heaven going at death or at the return of Christ, but these all teach and/or are harmonious with the Kingdom of God upon the earth at the return of Jesus. My favourite passage in this respect is Acts 3:19-21 and this clearly teaches that Jesus will return from heaven to establish his Kingdom. I am happy to leave this aspect as it is not altogether the subject of this thread, but will leave open any minor response in this thread. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings Ezra, I appreciate your response. Even though John 14 is one of the most frequently quoted Scripture in support of heaven going, I do not accept that Jesus is here teaching heaven going. Firstly note that it is not talking about heaven going at death, as it clearly states that the Apostles were to await until the time when Jesus says “I will come again” and at that time he would “receive you unto myself”. John 14:1-3 (KJV): 1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Another aspect of this passage is that where KJV has “many mansions” other translations have “many abiding places” or “many rooms”. The word “mansions” gives the impression of many luxurious houses, while the passage is speaking of one place, the Father’s house with accommodation for many. Jesus already used the term “my Father’s house” and this earlier occurrence is speaking firstly of the Temple in Jerusalem and then the Temple of his body. Here it is not speaking of heaven, or God’s dwelling place in heaven. John 2:16-21 (KJV): 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise. 17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. 18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. Paul in Hebrews also gives a similar perspective regarding God’s house and again it is not speaking of God’s house in heaven. It is also interesting that he speaks of “the heavenly calling”, but this does not teach going to heaven itself. Hebrews 3:1-6 (KJV): 1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings spiderman1917, My favourite verse is Galatians 2:20, the example of Paul living the crucified and resurrected life by the faith of the Son of God. Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. My favourite chapters are Psalm 8 and Isaiah 6, especially because of the many allusions and quotations of these in the NT, giving a Divine commentary or exposition of these. Both are centred in the work and ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ, in both the 1st and 2nd Coming. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings Last Daze and Greetings again WilliamL, The first of the following indicates a definite period of time for the Kingdom of God upon the earth, and the second defines this period of time as 1000 years. 1 Corinthians 15:23-26 (KJV): 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV): 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Earthly seems to denote things that are derived from the earth, from man and not from God, but the Kingdom of God upon the earth will have its source from the God of heaven. I do not believe that the faithful will go to heaven when Christ returns. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings WilliamL I appreciate your response, but I believe the initial gathering of the faithful before Armageddon will be on earth, and also the faithful will then share with Christ the 1000 years with him upon the earth. Matthew 5:5 (KJV): Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. The promises to Abraham include the inheritance of the land, not a promise to go to heaven. God told him to look N,S,E and W, and not to heaven for his inheritance. Genesis 13:14-15 (KJV): 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. The prophets when read in simple terms, and in a literal sense speak of the future Kingdom of God on earth, and the following are a few basic prophecies, but many more could be quoted: Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Daniel 2:35 (KJV): Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:44 (KJV): And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. But what about "heavenly Mount Zion"? Will Jesus sit upon the throne of David in literal Jerusalem, as Isaiah 2:1-4 seems to indicate? The term heavenly has already been used for Abraham's inheritance: Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV): 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrews 11:13-16 (KJV): 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. The reason why Paul does not endorse Jerusalem and the temple that then existed, was because Jerusalem and the Temple was soon to be destroyed by the Romans. He even states: Hebrews 13:12-14 (KJV): 12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. 14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. My suggestion based on all of the above is that Mount Zion is called "heavenly Mount Zion", not because the reward will be in heaven, but it will be in Mount Zion when it will be established by God, as Daniel 2:44 "the God of heaven". The Kingdom of heaven is the Kingdom of God on earth, in contrast to the kingdoms of men. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings Worthy, I could not vote as I do not believe in a pre- or post-tribulation rapture. Perhaps you should add a third choice "Do not believe in "a" or "the" rapture. Now to clarify, I take the term rapture to represent the idea that the faithful will be taken to heaven at the return of Christ. What I believe is that the faithful will be gathered to Christ at his return, and this will before the judgement on the nations. A number of passages are relevant, but the following speaks of the resurrection and the faithful, that is those resurrected and those alive at his coming, are invited to hide themselves, to avoid the severity of God's outpouring of judgements on the nations: Isaiah 26:19-21 (KJV): 19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. Also the sequence of events is also governed by the following, that is the believers are judged first, before the nations: 1 Peter 4:17 (KJV): 17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? I do not believe that this gathering will be in heaven and I believe that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is figurative language. I believe that Jesus returns to establish the Kingdom of God on earth for 1000 years, and he will reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Ezra, I can agree in part with what you have stated, as I suggest that as well as many other prophecies, Daniel 11:40-45 speaks of another invasion of the Holy Land at the time of the end, and this will be another Abomination of Desolation. This event could be soon, but it is still future. Daniel 11:40-45 (KJV) 40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. But you seem to suggest that the details of Revelation 6-18 are (all?) future, but I accept that many of the events in these chapters have already occurred. For example the Six Seals in my understanding is the period from AD 96 – 312. This view has also been advocated by many, especially by many in the Reformation era and many others to the present day. I could supply a list compiled by one of my brethren, but I have not studied their writings. He suggests that this is part of the Historicist view of prophecy, but perhaps another name is continuous historical view. This view to my understanding is based initially on Daniel 2. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings Ezra and WilliamL, I appreciate your response. I have been interested in Daniel and Revelation for many years and heard a number of opinions and interpretations. As a result I have formed an understanding of many aspects that mainly form a framework and this helps to understand other detail. Overall I have a different view to many of the things that you expressed in your OP and also in this second Post. I would suggest and repeat what I stated that by removing Luke 21:24 out of its context enables you to ignore the parallel records of Matthew and Luke in respect to AD70. Yes I believe that there will be a further invasion of the Holy Land in the future, but the language and ideas of fleeing literal Jerusalem were more applicable to AD70 than to the Jews that are living there today, as most of them do not subscribe to an understanding of the Olivet Prophecy. As stated above, I do not see this sharp distinction. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings Ezra, Your explanation and sequence ignores what seems to be evident, that Matthew 24:15-20 and Luke 21:20-24 are speaking of the same event: the overthrow of Jerusalem in AD70. Thus the Abomination of desolation in Matthew's account are the Roman armies of AD70 in Luke's account. Matthew 24:15-20 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Luke 21:20-24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Luke clearly shows that following AD70 Jerusalem was to suffer a long period of treading down by the Gentiles, and this has been the situation, partly reversed in AD 1967. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings Teditis, I agree with your summary except the following example suggests that there is more detail in the gospel than is often taught by many churches: Acts 8:5-6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. As this is a summary by Luke, it is not difficult to find some of the detail when we consider the speeches by Peter in Acts 2 and 3. Also Paul in his Letter to the Romans speaks of the gospel of Christ and the whole of his exposition is therefore an introduction to the scope and meaning of the gospel. The following is his introduction to this theme, and even in this there is a hint of greater detail: Romans 1:1-4 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Romans 1:15-17 (KJV): 15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings Golden Eagle, I have had a brief review of the article and suggest instead that what is essential is a belief of the Gospel as preached by the Apostles. A summary of this is found in Acts 8:5-6,12 and this needs to be expanded to explain and include an understanding of what actually is represented by the things of the Name and the Kingdom. Yes, an understanding of the resurrection is one essential. I would suggest that contrary to the article many do not believe this Apostolic Gospel, and some of the essentials suggested in the article do not represent the scope and detail of this Gospel. Therefore the picture of concentric circles does not represent the true position. Kind regards Trevor