KiwiChristian

Rubbish. I've searched through many different translations of the mainstream bible for 'full of grace', and nowhere is Mary called that. She is told by the angel that she is 'favoured by god', or has 'found favour in god's eyes'. So? David was favoured in god's eyes. At one time Saul was favoured in God's eyes. Samuel was favoured in God's eyes. All Christians are favoured in God's eyes. Luke 1:18 "kai eiselthōn pros autēn eipen kecharitōmenē Kyrios meta sou eulogēmenē sy en gynaixin" The phrase, "full of grace," in Greek is "plaras karitos," and it occurs in only two places in the New Testament. Neither one is in reference to Mary. "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth," (John 1:14). "And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people," (Acts 6:8). The first citation refers to Jesus who is obviously full of grace. Jesus is God in flesh, the crucified and risen Lord, who cleanses us from our sins. In the second citation, it is Stephen who is full of grace. We can certainly affirm that Jesus was conceived without sin and remained sinless, but can we conclude this about Stephen as well? Certainly not. The phrase, "full of grace," does not necessitate sinlessness by virtue of its use. In Stephen's case it signifies that he was "full of the Spirit and of wisdom" along with faith and the Holy Spirit (Acts 6:3, 5). But Stephen was a sinner. Nevertheless, where does the phrase "full of grace" come from regarding Mary? My friend, i could take words out of the Bible and make a prayer about satan and by your reckoning, it would be "Biblical". Please, lets get back to the topic of idols.

Sorry. mistake

Pretty long prayer. What makes you think this is the "lords prayer" as opposed to what has traditionally been accepted?

The Trinity and Bible Proofs that Jesus Christ is God 1. Matthew 28:17-20 “they worshipped him”, “All power is given to me”, “I am with you always” and “baptizing them in the name (one God) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” = Trinity. 2. In Matthew 3:1-3, Jesus Christ fulfils Isaiah 40:3 to ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah’ and our God. 3. John 1:1 “the word was God” (KJV, NIV), not ‘a god’ (NWT). a) Isaiah 44:8 ‘Is there a God beside me?’ b) The absence of the article before “theos” (God) identifies “word” as the subject (Colwell’s rule)Ans855 ‘The subject is identified by the article (ho logos) and the predicate (theos) without it.’ AT Robertson 5,4. John did not use the word for “Godlike or a lesser god” (theios) to describe Jesus, but used “theos” (God). All early writers disagree with JWs. (Irenaeus,Theophilus, Clement,Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Tatian). All modern Greek experts disagree with JWs. (Zodhiates, AT Robertson, Wuest, Vine, Vincent, Mantey) 4. John 1:3 “All things were made by him” Malachi 2:10 “Hath not one God created us?” Jesus is Creator. 5. John 3:13 “Son of man which is in heaven.” Jesus is omnipresent (on earth and in heaven at same time) 6. John 4:42 “Christ, the Saviour of the world.” Isaiah 43:11 “Jehovah; beside me there is no saviour.” 7. John 5:18 “said God was his Father, making himself equal with God”. John believed it and quoted it. 8. John 5:23 “all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father” Do you honour the Son as God? 9. John 6:46 “Not that any man hath seen the Father.” Who did OT saints see who they said was God?Is6:5 10. John 8:24 “If ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.” Jehovah is “I am” in Exodus 3:1-14. 11. John 8:58,59 “Before Abraham was, I am. They took up stones to cast at him.” Jesus said He is God. 12. John 10:30 “I and my Father are One. They took up stones to stone him.” No stoning if agree with God. 13. John 10:33 “thou being a man, makest thyself God. They sought again to take him (39)”. Why? 14. John 16:15 “All things that the Father hath are mine:” All the Father’s attributes as God are Christ’s. 15. John 17:5 “the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Isaiah 42:8 “I am Jehovah: my glory will I not give to another.” Jesus is Jehovah because he alone shares Jehovah’s exclusive glory. 16. John 20:28 “Thomas said unto him (Jesus), My Lord and my God.” No rebuke for blasphemy or error. 17. Acts 20:28 “Feed the church of God, which he (God) hath purchased with his own blood.” Jesus =God 18. I Cor. 1:2 “all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ.” Prayer to Jesus makes him God. 19. I Corinthians 15:47 ‘the second man is the Lord from heaven’ This is Jesus. No man is from heaven. 20. II Corinthians 13:14 is the Apostolic Benediction:“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.” (II Corinthians 13:14). Why is there a change in the order of the persons of the Trinity, compared to Matthew 28:19, if not to show that in this Trinity none is before or after the other, and none is better than another? 21. Philippians 2:6 “Who being in the form of God (in His pre-incarnate state Christ had the form of God) thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (a prize to be held on to, not a prize to be won. AT Robertson). 22. Colossians 2:9 “In him (Christ) dwells all the fullness (exhausts the limits) of the Godhead bodily.” 23. I Thes 4:14 “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Jesus returns as God at rapture. 24. I Timothy 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh.” Jesus is God the Son conceived in Mary. 25. Titus 2:13 “the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” Granville-Sharp rule: Jesus is God and Saviour. 26. Hebrews 1:6 “Let all the angels of God worship him.” Only worship God. Matt 4:10, Ps97:7 Son is God 27. Hebrews 1:8 “To the Son he saith, ‘Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever’” Psalm 45:6,7. Son is God. 28. Hebrew 1:10 “And (to the Son he saith), Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:.thou art the same.” Son is unchangeable creator. Ps102:24 29. Hebrews 1:13 To which of the angels said he, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 35 30. I John 5:7 “There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” The heavenly and earthly witnesses in v.7,8 are confirmed in v.9 by God and men. The masculine article (oi) for “that” in v.7 is derived from the masculine nouns “Father and Word” in v.7. 31. Revelation 1:17,18 “I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth and was dead;” Jesus = first and last. Revelation 1:11 “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:” Jesus = first and last = Alpha and Omega. Revelation 22:12,13 “I come quickly; I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.” Jesus=Alpha & Omega. Revelation 1:8 “I am Alpha and Omega, the Almighty.” Jesus = first & last = Alpha & Omega =Almighty 32. Revelation 22:3 “the throne of God and of the Lamb.” Both God and the Lamb equally own the throne. Revelation 22:3 “his servants shall serve him:” Both God and the Lamb equally own the same servants. Revelation 22:4 “they shall see his face.” Both God and the Lamb have the same face. Revelation 22:4 “his name shall be in their foreheads.” Both God and the Lamb have the same name. Revelation 20:6 “they shall be priests (of God and of Christ), and shall reign with HIM a thousand years” Revelation 21:22 “for (the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb) are the temple of it.” Both are temple of NJ Revelation 21:23 “for (the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light) thereof.” Both light of NJ 33. God identifies Himself as “us” (a Trinity) in:‘God said “let us make man in our image”’ Genesis 1:26 ‘Jehovah God said, “Behold the man is become as one of us . . .’ Genesis 3:22. ‘Jehovah came down … the Lord said, let us go down.’ Genesis 11:5,7 ‘who will go for us?’ Isaiah 6:8. 34. Exodus 3:14 “I AM hath sent me unto you.” ‘I AM’ is the name of the angel of Jehovah, Jehovah, God (2,4,6) & Jesus in John 8:58 “Before Abraham was, I AM” & John 8:24 “If ye believe not that I AM” 35. Psalm 110:1. God told David that David’s son would be David’s God. ‘The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Adonai), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.’ Jesus applied this to Himself in Matthew 22:41-45 as a question: ‘If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?’ This shows that Jesus Christ would be both a man descended from David and David’s God. 36. Isaiah 6:1-8,5. “Mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts” on the throne in heaven. God asked Isaiah “who will go for us?” (‘us’ = trinity). In John 12:37-41, John said, “These things said Esaias when he saw his (Jesus) glory, and spake of him (Jesus).” Jesus was the King, Jehovah of hosts that Isaiah saw. 37. Isaiah 9:6 ‘Unto us a child is born (human Jesus),unto us a son is given (God the Son): his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God.” Jehovah is Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21;Jer32:18; Ps 50:1 38. Isaiah 44:6 ‘Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel (Father) and his redeemer Jehovah of hosts (Son)” 39. Isaiah 48:12,13,16 “Hearken unto me…Mine hand also has laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand has spanned the heavens:…Come ye near unto me,..the Lord GOD, and his Spirit has sent me.” Me, mine, my and me is God the Son describing his two works of creation and of incarnation to save man. 40. Ezekiel 44:1,2 “This gate shall be shut…because Jehovah, the God of Israel has entered in by it.” In Luke 19:45-47 Jesus, who is Jehovah, fulfilled this prophecy, entering the east gate on a colt in 33AD. 41. Hosea 4:1 and 5:15. Jehovah will return to ‘my place’ (heaven), till the Jews admit their offence of killing Jesus. “Hear the word of the LORD (Jehovah) (4:1),.I will go and return to my place (heaven), till they (Jews) acknowledge their offence (of killing Jesus), and seek my face: in their affliction (7 year tribulation) they (Jews) will seek me early.” Jehovah the Son came from heaven to be born of Mary as a man, he was rejected and crucified by the Jews. The resurrected Lord Jesus returned to heaven. Jesus will return when the Jews acknowledge their offence of killing Jesus. This occurs after the 7 year tribulation. 42. Zechariah 11:4,12,13. “Thus saith the LORD (Jehovah) my God; (v.4). If ye think good, give me my price; So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver (v.12)….I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD’ (Zechariah 11:4,12,13). (silver, temple floor, potter field) These three prophecies were fulfilled in Judas betraying Jesus Christ in Matthew 26:14-16 and 27:3-10. 43. Zechariah 12:9-10. When Jesus Christ returns to earth, He is identified as Jehovah God whom Israel pierced on the cross. “I (Jehovah) will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem (v.9). They (Israel) shall look upon me (Jehovah) whom they have pierced.” Jesus fulfilled this in John 19:37. 44. Zechariah 14:3,4,5,9. When Jesus Christ returns to earth on the Mount of Olives, He is identified as Jehovah God (Zechariah 14:3,4). ‘Then shall the LORD (Jehovah) go forth and fight against those nations, And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives (v.3-4)....the LORD (Jehovah) my God shall come, and all the saints with thee (v.5)….the LORD (Jehovah) shall be king over all the earth.’ When Jesus ascended to heaven from the Mount of Olives, two angels told those witnesses present that “this same Jesus shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:10-12). 45. In Zechariah 2:8-11, Jehovah the Son states twice that Jehovah the Father has sent Him to Israel. This proves that there are at least two persons in the Godhead, both called Jehovah. “For thus saith Jehovah of hosts (the Son).. (v.8) Ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts (the Father) hath sent me (v.9). ‘I (Jehovah the Son) will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that Jehovah of hosts (Father) hath sent me unto thee.” (v.11). Lesson: Jehovah (the Father) sends Jehovah (the Son). Two persons here are named Jehovah. This clearly proves that Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate state is fully Jehovah God. 46. In Zechariah 3:2 “Jehovah said unto Satan, Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan”. One person in the Jehovah Godhead speaks about another person in the Jehovah Godhead. See Isaiah 48:16 Rules of Grammar dictate that: “Jehovah (the first person = person speaking) said unto Satan (the second person = person spoken to), Jehovah (the third person = person spoken about) rebuke thee.”

7 Bible Truths Disproving Islam: Discussion between a Christian and a Muslim 1. God is a Trinity of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is God the Son. 1) a) In Matthew 28:19,20 Jesus said “baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”. He stated that there is only one true God (from ‘NAME’ being singular) and that there are THREE parts or persons in the one true God. This proves the Trinity and that Jesus is God the Son. You are a trinity of one human with 3 parts (body, soul, spirit) each being 100% human. God is a trinity. b) v.17 “When they saw him, they worshipped him:” Jesus accepted worship, showing that he is God. c) v.18 “All power is given unto me..” Jesus set aside all power (as God) for 33 years to become a man. 2) Isaiah 9:6 says of Jesus: “Unto us a child is born (Jesus became 100% human when born of Mary), unto us a son is given (Jesus as the eternal Son of God was given from heaven):his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father (Father of eternity), The Prince of Peace.” Only God is the Mighty God. (See Is.10:21; Jer. 32:18; Psalm 50:1; Habakkuk 1:12). So Jesus is God. 3) Isaiah 44:6 “Thus saith the LORD (Yahweh the Father) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts (Yahweh the Son).” Here 2 members of the trinity (Father and Son) are both called God. 4) In Isaiah 48:12,13,16 God the Son, who created heavens and earth (v.12,13), tells his other work of saving in v.16 “Come ye near unto me (Jesus), hear ye this; the Lord GOD (Yahweh the Father), and his Spirit (God the Holy Spirit), hath sent me (God the Son coming to earth to do His work of salvation).” 5) David in Psalm 110:1 says, “The LORD (God the Father) said to my Lord (God the Son, Jesus Christ), Sit thou at my right hand (33AD to the judgment), until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” 6) Jesus in John 5:23 orders “That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.” Do you honour Jesus Christ as God, just as you honour the Father as God? You must or you go to hell. 7) Jesus in John 8:24 said “if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.” Jesus here said He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who appeared to Moses at the burning bush in Exodus 3:13-15. When Moses asked God’s name, God replied that it was “I AM” and “this is my name forever.”v.14,15. 8) Jesus in John 8:58,59 said “Truly, truly, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Then they took up stones to cast at him.” The Jews knew Jesus was claiming to be God. Jesus endorsed this conclusion. 9) After Jesus rose, in John 20:28 “Thomas answered & said unto him (Jesus), My Lord and my God.” 10) Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he (Jesus) come forth unto me (God the Father) that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old (qedmah: eternal, everlasting 6924), from everlasting (olam: eternity 5769, same as in Habakkuk 1:12 of Yahweh). Since Jesus is eternal, this proves Him to be God the Son. 11) In Ezekiel 44:1,2 God the Father calls God the Son, the God of Israel who entered Jerusalem’s east gate in 33AD on his way to the cross. “Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looks toward the east: and it was shut (as it is today). Then said the LORD (Jehovah the Father) unto me; this gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD (Jehovah the Son), the God of Israel, has entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.” 2. Jesus Christ is the eternal, uncreated Son of God (128 times in NT, 5 times in OT) means: 1) Not as Mohammad and the Quran (Q6:101) think: “How can He have children when he has no wife?” “Allah who has not begotten a son, and who has no partner.” (Q17:111). “Never has Allah begotten a son” (Q23:91). Both Christians and Muslims agree that God never had sex to produce Jesus. 2) English has only one word for son which means “a male derived from his parents by sex.” The Greek language of the New Testament has 2 words for son: teknon meaning “derived from by sex” which never refers to Jesus as “Son of God”, and huios meaning “the same nature as”, the correct word. 5 examples of “huios” are: “son of peace” means that you have the nature of peace (Luke 10:36), son of consolation (Acts 4:36), sons of disobedience (Eph 5:6), Christians are called children of light (John 12:36), Judas was called “son of perdition” (John 17:12). All these are the word “huios” (5207, not 5043). 3)Jesus Christ is the “only begotten (mono-genes) Son (huios) of God”(John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; I John 4:9). “Only begotten” is “monogenes” in Greek. This means that Jesus Christ has “one and the same (mono), genetic makeup (genes) as God.” He has always been 100% identical to God in all details of His nature. Since Jesus Christ was born as a man of Mary, He is now 100% man and 100% God. 4) Jesus called Himself the “Son of God” in John 5:25 “The hour is coming, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God”; 9:35 “Dost thou believe on the Son of God? he worshipped him (Jesus)”; 10:36 “I said, I am the Son of God”; 11:4 “the Son of God might be glorified”; 3:18 “He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God”. Daniel called Jesus the Son of God: “the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” (Daniel 3:25). David said God has a Son: “Kiss the Son lest he be angry.” (Psalm 2:12). Solomon said God has a Son: “Who hath established the ends of the earth? (God). What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?” (Proverbs 30:4,5). Gabriel called Jesus the Son of God: ‘He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest (v.32), that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.’ (Luke 1:26-35). 3. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins & rose from the dead. How do we know this? 1) Jesus stated 29 times in the gospels that He would die on the cross and rise again. Matthew 16:21 “From that time forth began Jesus to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders, and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.” (Mark 8:31; Luke 9:22). 2) Hundreds of eye-witnesses of His death include Mary his mother who would certainly know her son, Mary Magdalene (Mark 15:40), Chief Priests who mocked him on the cross (Mark 15:31,32), a great company of people (Luke 23:27,48), John, Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, the Centurion, Simon. 3) Old Testament prophets David, Daniel, Isaiah, and Zechariah said Jesus would die by crucifixion. Daniel 9:25,26 “After 62 weeks (483 years of 360 days from 5 March 444BC) shall Messiah be cut off but not for himself: and the people (Romans) of the prince that shall come (antichrist) shall DESTROY the CITY (Jerusalem in 70 AD) and the SANCTUARY (Temple in 70 AD).” Zechariah 12:10 “They (the house of David) shall look upon me (Jehovah) whom they have pierced.” Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say unto him (Messiah at his second coming), what are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. Psalm 22:16 They pierced my hands and my feet. They part my garments among them, (Psalm 22:18). Psalm 16:10 Neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (the rich in his death. Isaiah 53:8 He was cut off out of the land of the living. He made his grave with the wicked, and with John 1:29 John the Baptist introduced Jesus as “the lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world” 4) Blood and water flowed from Christ’s wounded side (John 19:34,35). This water flowed from the pericardium and the blood flowed from the heart. The pericardium is a closed sac encasing the heart. Mallory and Wright’s Pathological Technique states “The normal amount (of pericardial fluid) is about a teaspoonful (5 ml), but may be increased to 100 ml where the death agony is prolonged”. * Jesus’ death was necessary to satisfy the perfect justice of God, the law of God and the love of God. 5) 11 Proofs of Jesus Christ’s resurrection are: The empty tomb and the ordered graveclothes, when the disciples examined the tomb (John 20:5-8). Over 500 people saw Christ over 40 days, after His resurrection. Most were alive in 59AD. I Cor 15:6. The change from Saturday to Sunday as the main day of worship (I Corinthians 16:1,2; Acts 20:6) The New Testament was written with the theme of eternal life through Christ’s death and resurrection. The mental change in Jesus’ disciples from cowards to bold preachers after Christ’s resurrection. The Church’s existence can only be explained by the miracle of Christ’s resurrection. The silence from the Pharisees and Romans who could have ended Christianity by showing His body. People recognised Jesus after His resurrection, identifying Him by the nail prints in His hands. The risen Christ had flesh and bones. He invited the disciples to “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me have”. (Luke 24:39,40). Jesus Christ ate food after His resurrection. “They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them”. (Luke 24:42,43). Two angels in Christ’s tomb declared that He had risen from the dead as He said (Luke 24:4-8). Conclusion: Mohammed in one unsupported opinion, violates the evidence and asks us to believe that: “They did not kill him (Jesus), nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them (the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man, and they killed that man)....Allah took him up to himself.” (Q4:157,158). a) An opinion needs no evidence to support it. Mohammed’s opinion in Q4:157,158 gave no evidence, since he lived 600 years after Jesus and 600 miles away. He was not an eye witness of Jesus’ life, death or resurrection. He has no authority and no credibility on Jesus since he never knew Him. (So obvious!) The facts of Christ’s death and resurrection are supported by the evidence of many expert witnesses. b) Would God darken the sun for 3 hours as Matthew, Mark, Luke, Amos, Thallus (“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness” 52AD), Phlegon (80AD) record, for an unnamed nobody? c) Would God deceive all the witnesses & all mankind? No! God is not a deceiver but Allah is (Q15:39). d) Would an unnamed nobody on the cross pray “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”? Would an unnamed nobody on the cross promise a dying thief “Today shall you be with me in paradise” Would an unnamed nobody on the cross ask John to take care of Mary, Jesus’ mother? (John 19:26,27). Islam asks us to reject the laws of evidence on Christ’s death, but uphold them on all else. (4 witnesses). e) Quran’s lie gives no details and no witnesses. The Bible gives many details and many witnesses. 4. The Bible is not corrupted. Why do Muslims ignore the prophets’ writings in the Bible? Faced with the vast evidence for Christ’s death, resurrection and deity from the Bible, secular and Christian sources Islam says that the Bible is corrupted. How do they know that? If some Muslims say the Bible is corrupted, then they must prove their claim or leave Islam. “Prove all things.” (I Thess. 5:21). Question 1: Who corrupted the Bible? What was his name? (No Muslim knows this). Name the source? Question 2: Which parts are corrupted? Which parts are true? Why hasn’t Islam made a correct Bible? Question 3: When was it corrupted? What year? Name the source? How do you know the source is true? Conclusion: From Muslim leaders inability to answer these questions and prove their sources, we conclude that their claim is false, a lie, and a cover up to deny the overwhelming evidence for Christ’s death and resurrection, and to keep their people in ignorance and bondage to a deceiving religion. “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (100% God and 100% man)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” (1John 2:22). Don’t follow a liar & an antichrist. M sins 47:19;48:2 Question 4: How do we know that the Bible today is the same as originally given, without corruption? Answer: Three first century writers quote from every New Testament book (except III John) on 364 random quotes that are the same as our Authorized Bible today. (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol.1, p.45- 131). a) Ignatius (30 -107AD) a disciple of John, would have quoted from the original NT manuscripts that John wrote. He quoted from 25 out of 27 NT books on 245 occasions giving the same readings as the KJV Bibles of today. This shows that the NT books were immediately seen as Scripture. “JC our God”68 “Our Lord saying, Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, & of the Son, & of the Holy Ghost.” V 1,85 b) Clement of Rome (30-100AD) was a companion of Paul and Luke. He was at Philippi with Paul in 57AD (“with Clement also” Philippian 4:3). He quotes from 15 out of 27 NT books 49 times (Vol.1,1-21). c) Polycarp (65-155AD) was a disciple of John. In writing to the Philippian church in 115AD, he quotes 19 out of 27 NT books as Scripture on 70 occasions, showing that the NT canon was accepted. “To him who is able to bring us all into His everlasting kingdom, through his only begotten Son Jesus Christ” V1,43 (Source: The Ante-Nicene Fathers. Translations of the Writings of the Fathers down to AD325, Eerdmans,Michigan) 5. Allah is a false god (moon god of Arabia) with a different nature to the true God of the Bible. “I am the LORD (Yahweh) thy God, …Thou shalt have no other gods (eg: Allah) before me.” (Exodus 20:2,3). Allah is a pagan idol: M’s pagan father (Abdullah, servant of Allah) was named after idol Allah, 1/360 idols in Kaba. 1) Allah commands murder of unbelievers. ‘Muslims should strike off the heads of unbelievers in the battlefield and massacre them’ 47:4. The devil was a murderer from the beginning. John 8:44. Satan deceives world. Rev 12:9 2) Allah is a liar. ‘Allah misleads whom he will’. (Q74:39). ‘The devil is a liar and the father of lies’. (John 8:44). 3) Allah is a deceiver/seducer. 'Allah is the best of plotters.' (3:54; 8:30; 13:42). 'God of truth' (Deuteronomy 32:4 4) Allah does not love unbelievers. (Q30:45; 5:88). ‘Jesus healed all that were oppressed of the devil’ Acts 10:38 God of the Bible loves unbelievers (‘For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son… John 3:16) 5) Allah hates Jews. ‘Idolaters, Jews are the worst enemies of Muslims’ (5:82; 98:6). God loves Jews (Rom.11:28) 6) Allah hates Christians. ‘True Muslims do not choose to be friends with Christians’. (Q5:57). The God of the Bible loves Christians (I John 4:8-11). 'He loved us.’ ‘Your adversary the devil.’ (I Peter 5:8). 7) Allah hates Jesus Christ being Son of God. ‘Allah can destroy the Messiah’ (5:17). 'Father loveth the Son.' (John 3:35; 5:20). ‘The dragon stood before the woman ... to devour her child as soon as it was born.’ (Rev. 12:4). 8) Allah enslaves/binds people. ‘the slave-girls whom Allah has given you as booty.’ (Q33:50). ‘To proclaim liberty to the captives.' (Luke 4:18).‘snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him.’ (II Timothy 2:26). 9) Some demons serve Allah. ‘Some of us (demons) are Muslims.’ (72:14). 'All the holy angels.' (Matthew 25:31). 10) Allah wants people to go to hell. (Q11:119) 'I will fill hell with jinn and mankind.' (Q7:179; 32:13). ‘God is not willing that any should perish.’ (II Peter 3:9). It’s a sin to worship the wrong God (Allah), as it is to worship idols. 6. The Quran is a false book. It is not from the true God of the Bible. The Quran so blatantly contradicts hundreds of Bible passages on the most essential doctrines that it cannot be from the same God. What statements in the Quran show it to be a false, lying book? 1) 18:86 ‘They ask you about Dhul-Qarnain (Alexander). Truly, he followed a road, until when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a pool of black muddy water. He found a people nearby.’ Question: Do you believe the sun sets in a pool of black mud? No! In 600AD where the sun went each afternoon was a great mystery. Mohammed tried to solve this mystery in 18:86, but he guessed wrong. God would not make this mistake. This is proof that the Quran is not from God but of man. Reject it. 2) Historical Characters out of their time. Pharaoh never knew Haman, each living 1000 years apart. 28:38 ‘Pharaoh (1500 BC) said: Make me, Haman (510 BC), bricks of clay and build me a tower (2250 BC) that I may climb to the God of Moses.’ Here the Quran has Pharaoh (1500 BC) telling Haman (510 BC) to build the Tower of Babel (2250 BC) with clay bricks to reach to heaven. (40:36). 3) Did Noah’s son drown (11:42,43) or survive (21:76)? Noah’s 3 sons (Genesis 7:1,7,13; 10:2,6,22) lived. 11:42 ‘Noah cried out to his son, who stood apart “Embark with us, my child. Do not remain with the unbelievers!” He replied: “I shall seek refuge in a mountain, which will protect me from the flood”....the billows rolled between them, and Noah’s son was drowned.’ (Q 11:42,43). Q 21:76 “Noah cried to us. We answered him. We saved him and all his kinsfolk from the great calamity.” 4) The Bible does not teach that Mary is part of the Trinity. ‘Then Allah will say: “Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind: ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods beside Allah’?” (Q5:116) 5) Solomon did not die in the 7 years building his temple (I Kings 6:38), but ruled 40 years (I Kings 11:42) 34:14 When we decreed Solomon’s death, they (Jinn building his temple) did not know that he was dead until they saw a worm eating away his staff. When his corpse fell down, the jinn realized… 6) The Quran does not confirm or fully explain previous scriptures. How does it confirm the Bible? 5:48 ‘The Quran confirms the Scriptures which came before it.’ See Q 2:41,91; 3:81; 12:111; 46:12. 10:38 ‘This Quran confirms what was revealed before it and fully explains the scriptures.’ Note: The Quran does not confirm the Bible, but contradicts it on almost every page and on every doctrine, such as Salvation by Christ not by works, Jesus is Son of God, died, rose, Trinity, God, heaven, war. 7) 17:104 “We said to the Israelites: Dwell in the land. When the promise of the hereafter (Day of Resurrection) comes to be fulfilled, We shall assemble you altogether.” This is a false prophecy since Israelites have already been gathered together in Israel before the Day of Resurrection, not after. 8) Quran is badly written: repetitive, no love, hates non Muslims, hell threats, incomplete, no creation or end of the earth, no chronology, no historical narrative, fear, makes war a divine law, no logical train of thought, different literary style to Bible, contradicts Bible prophets, endorsed by Jinn (demons) 72:6,13 7. Islam seeks to take the world by violence, terror, Jihad. 12 violent Quran quotes are: 4:89 If they desert you, seize them and put them to death wherever you find them. 8:12 Allah revealed his will to the angels saying: “I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels, strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.. for they defied Allah and his apostle.” 47:4 -6 When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly . . . thus shall you do. Had Allah willed, He could Himself have punished them; but He has ordained it thus that He might test you. Those who are slain in the cause of Allah ...He will admit them to Paradise. 2:216 Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. 2:244 Fight for the cause of Allah. 8:39 Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and Allah’s religion shall reign supreme. 8:67 A prophet may not take captives until he has fought and triumphed (made slaughter) in the land. 9:29 Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe neither in Allah nor the last Day, who do not forbid what Allah & his apostle have forbidden, & do not embrace the true faith, until they pay tribute & are utterly subdued.33:51 You may put off any of your wives you please,& take to your bed any of them you please 98:4-6 The unbelievers among the People of the Book and all the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures (worst created beings). 32:13 I will surely fill Hell with jinn and humans all. 4:34 As for those (wives) from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, and send them to their beds apart, & beat (scourge) them. 9:123 Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal harshly with them. Conclusion: Caliph Yazid (724AD) wrote: “Muhammad the Hashemite manipulated people by his claim that he was a prophet, without true inspiration or an inspired book”. (The Islamic Caliphate, p59). Don’t let him manipulate you. Q: Why does Quran get the prophets names right (Moses, David) but God’s name wrong? Yahweh is not Allah. Ex 20:2 Q: M not a prophet : changing verses (16:101), no fulfilled prophecies(7:203), friend of demons 72:1-6-14; Lev 19:31 M caliphs attacked Iraq, Persia, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, N Africa, Turkey, India, Spain, France in 144 battles (632-743)

Like as We sent down on the dividers, Those who made the Quran INTO SHREDS. So, by your Lord, We would most certainly question them all, As to what they did. S. 15:90-93 Shakir Here are some of the various ways that Q. 15:91 has been translated: (So also on such) as have made Qur'an into shreds (as they please). Y. Ali Those who break the Qur'an into parts. Pickthall who dismember the Qur'an. Palmer who have broken the Koran into fragments. Arberry Who splintered the Quran into diverse parts. Tarif Khalidi Those who divided the Qur’an into parts. Maulana Muhammad Ali Those who break the Quran into separate parts. Hamid S. Aziz Those who have broken the Qur’an into fragments (as they please). Ali Unal and also divided the Quran believing in some parts and rejecting others. Muhammad Sarwar and who have broken the Scripture into fragments—Wahiduddin Khan And severed their Scripture into fragments. Muhammad Ahmed-Samira It is thus clear from this verse that the words of the Quran were being changed. As the late Islamic Scholar Alphonse Mingana explained: “Finally, if we understand correctly the following verse of Suratul-Hijr (xv. 90-91): 'As we sent down upon (punished) the dividers (of the Scripture?) who broke up the Koran into parts,' we are tempted to state that even when the Prophet was alive, some changes were noticed in the recital of certain verses of his sacred book. There is nothing very surprising in this fact, since Muhammad could not read or write, and was at the mercy of friends for the writing of his revelations, or, more frequently, of some mercenary amanuenses.” (Mingana, "Three Ancient Korans", The Origins of the Koran – Classic Essays on Islam's Holy Book, edited by Ibn Warraq [Prometheus Books, Amherst NY, 1998], p. 84; bold emphasis ours) The evidence also shows that such corruptions to the text continued long after Muhammad’s death. For instance, Mingana records the Muslim reaction to Uthman b. Affan’s burning and wholesale destruction of primary, competing Quranic codices: “The book, drawn up by this method, continued to be authoritative and the standard text till 29-30 A.H. under the caliphate of 'Uthman. At this time the wonderful faithfulness of Arab memory was defective, and according to a general weakness of human nature, the Believers have been heard reciting the verses of the Koran in a different way. This fact was due specially, it is said, to the hundreds of dialects used in Arabia. Zaid was again asked to put an end to these variations which had begun to scandalize the votaries of the Prophet. That indefatigable compiler, assisted by three men from the tribe of Quraish, started to do what he had already done more than fifteen years before. The previous copies made from the first one written under Abu Bakr were all destroyed by special order of the caliph: the revelation sent down from heaven was one, and the book containing this revelation must be one. The critic remarks that the only guarantee of the authenticity of the Koran is the testimony of Zaid; and for this reason, a scholar who doubts whether a given word has been really used by Muhammad, or whether it has been only employed by Zaid on his own authority, or on the meagre testimony of some Arab reciters, does not transgress the strict laws of high criticism. If the memory of the followers of the Prophet has been found defective from the year 15 to 30 A.H. when Islam was proclaimed over all Arabia, why may it not have been defective from 612 to 632 C.E. when the Prophet was often obliged to defend his own life against terrible aggressors? And if the first recension of Zaid contained always the actual words of Muhammad, why was this compiler not content with re-establishing it in its entirety, and why was the want of a new recension felt by 'Uthman? How can it be that in the short space of fifteen years such wonderful variants could have crept into the few copies preceding the reign of the third caliph that he found himself bound to destroy all those he could find? If 'Uthman was certainly inspired only by religious purposes, why did his enemies call him ‘THE TEARER OF THE BOOKS’ and why did they fasten on him the following stigma: ‘He found the Korans many and left one; HE TORE UP THE BOOK’? …” (Ibid., p. 84-85; bold and capital emphasis ours) In another article, Mingana cites Muslim historian al-Tabari who wrote that: “… ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, and ‘Uthman b. Affan wrote the Revelation to the Prophet; but in their absence it was Ubai b. Ka'b and Zaid b. Thabit who wrote it.’ He informs us, too, that the people said to ‘Uthman: ‘The Koran was in MANY BOOKS, and thou discreditedst them all but one’; and after the Prophet's death, ‘People gave him as successor Abu Bakr, who in turn was succeeded by ‘Umar; and both of them acted according to the Book and the Sunnah of the Apostle of God - and praise be to God the Lord of the worlds; then people elected ‘Uthman b. ‘Affan WHO … TORE UP THE BOOK.’” (Ibid., The Transmission of the Koran, p. 102; bold and capital emphasis ours) In this same article Mingana references another ancient writer regarding the compilation of the Quran. The author whom he quotes was a Christian apologist named Abd al-Masih al-Kindi. Al-Kindi wrote an apology titled The Apology of Al-Kindi at the Court of al-Mamun circa A.D. 830, approximately forty years before al-Bukhari compiled his hadith collection. Al-Kindi mentions the Muslim reaction to the conflicting readings that existed amongst the different Quranic codices that circulated shortly after Muhammad’s death: … Then the people fell to variance in their reading; some read according to the version of 'Ali, which they follow to the present day; some read according to the collection of which we have made mention; one party read according to the text of ibn Mas'ud, and another according to that of Ubai ibn Ka'b. When 'Uthman came to power, and people everywhere differed in their reading, 'Ali sought grounds of accusation against him. One man would read verse one way, and another man another way; and there was change and interpolation, some copies having more and some less. When this was represented to 'Uthman, and the danger urged of division, strife, and apostasy, he thereupon caused to be collected together all the leaves and scraps that he could, together with the copy that was written out at the first. But they did not interfere with that which was in the hands of 'Ali, or of those who followed his reading. Ubai was dead by this time, as for Ibn Mas'ud, they demanded his exemplar, but he refused to give it up. Then they commanded Zaid ibn Thabit, and with him 'Abdallah ibn 'Abbas, to revise and correct the text, eliminating all that was corrupt; they were instructed, when they differed on any reading, word, or name, or to follow the dialect of the Quraish. When the recension was completed, four exemplars were written out in large text; one was sent to Mecca, and another to Medina; the third was dispatched to Syria, and is to this day at Malatya; the fourth was deposited in Kufa. People say that this last copy is still extant at Kufa, but this is not case, for it was lost in the insurrection of Mukhtar (A.H. 67). The copy of Mecca remained there till the city was stormed by Abu Sarayah (A.H. 200); he did not carry it away; but it is supposed to have been burned in the conflagration. The Medina exemplar was lost in the reign of terror, that is, in the days of Yazid b. Mu'awiah (A.H. 60-64). After what we have related above, 'Uthman called in all the former leaves and copies, and destroyed them, threatening those held any portion back; and so only some scattered remains, concealed here and there, survived. Ibn Mas'ud, however, retained his exemplar in his own hands, and it was inherited by his posterity, as it is this day; and likewise the collection of 'Ali has descended in his family. Then followed the business of Hajjaj b. Yusuf, who gathered together every single copy he could lay hold of, and caused to be omitted from the text a great many passages. Among these, they say, were verses revealed concerning the House of the Umayyah with names of certain persons, and concerning the House of 'Abbas also with names. Six copies of the text thus revised were distributed to Egypt, Syria, Medina, Mecca, Kufa, and Basra. After that he called in and destroyed all the preceding copies, even as 'Uthman had done before him. The enmity subsisting between 'Ali and Abu Bakr, 'Umar and 'Uthman is well known; how each of these entered in the text whatever favored his own claims, and left out what was otherwise. How, then, can we distinguish between the genuine and the counterfeit? And what about the losses caused by Hajjaj? The kind of faith that this tyrant held in other matters is well-known; how can we make an arbiter as to the Book of God a man who never ceased play into the hands of the Umayyads whenever he found opportunity? (Ibid., pp. 108-109; bold emphasis ours) Mingana proceeds to quote what al-Kindi had to say to the Muslim whom was debating: Then al-Kindi, addressing his Muslim friend, says: ‘All that I have said is drawn from your own authorities, and no single argument has been advanced but what is based on evidence accepted by yourselves; in proof thereof, we have the Kur'an itself, which is a confused heap, with neither system nor order.’ (Ibn Warraq, pp. 109-110; bold emphasis ours) Lest the Muslims try to brush aside such statements as the ravings of biased anti-Islamic polemicists, they need to keep in mind what al-Kindi wrote. These men weren’t basing their claims on their own opinions or speculations, but were actually deriving them from what the so-called authentic Islamic traditions taught concerning the text of the Quran. Even now one can find evidence from the Islamic sources themselves to prove that the Muslims did in fact tamper with the text of the Quran. For instance, al-Bukhari confirms that Muhammad failed to compile the Quran in one manuscript and that Muslims were accusing each other of corrupting their scripture: III: The Collection of the Qur'an 4702. It is related that Zayd ibn Thabit said, "After the slaughter of people in the Battle of Yamama, Abu Bakr sent for me. 'Umar was with him. Abu Bakr said, ''Umar came to me and said, "Many Qur'an reciters were killed in the Battle of Yamama, and I fear that heavy casualties will be inflicted on the Qur'an reciters in other places and therefore much of the Qur'an will be lost. I think that you should collect the Qur'an together."' Abu Bakr said, 'I said to 'Umar, "How can I do something which the Messenger of Allah did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, it is better." 'Umar kept at me about it until Allah opened my breast to that. I think what 'Umar thinks about that.'" Zayd continued, "Abu Bakr said, 'You are an intelligent young man and we have no suspicion about you. You used to write down the revelation for the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. Therefore you are to search out the Qur'an and collect it.' By Allah, if he had obliged me to move one of the mountains, that would not have been weightier for me than what he commanded to do of collecting the Qur'an. I said, 'How can you do something which the Messenger of Allah did not do?' Abu Bakr said, 'By Allah, it is better.' Abu Bakr continued to keep at me until Allah opened my breast to what Allah had opened the breasts of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I began to search out the Qur'an and collect it from the palm stalks, thin white stones, and the breasts of men until I found end of Surat at-Tawba with Khuzayma al-Ansari which I did not find with anyone else: 'A Messenger has come to you from among yourselves. Your suffering is distressful to him...' (9:128)" The copy of the Qur'an in which the Qur'an was collected remained in the possession of Abu Bakr until Allah took him, and then it was with 'Umar until Allah took him, and then it was with Hafsa bint 'Umar." 4703. Anas ibn Malik reported that Hudhayfa ibn al-Yaman came to 'Uthman while the people of Syria were conquering Armenia and Azerbaijan with the people of Iraq. Hudhayfa was ALARMED by the difference in their recitation. Hudhayfa said to 'Uthman, "Amir al-Mu'minin! Deliver this Community before they disagree about the Book as the Jews and Christians differed!" So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa, saying, "Send us the pages in your possession and we will copy them and then return them to you." So Hafsa sent them to 'Uthman. He ordered Zayd ibn Thabit, 'Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr, Sa'id ibn al-'As, and 'Abdu'r-Rahman ibn al-Harith ibn Hisham to transcribe copies. 'Uthman said to the group of the three Qurashis, "When you and Zayd ibn Thabit disagree about any of the Qur'an, write it in the dialect of Quraysh. It was revealed in their language." They did that. When they had copied it out, 'Uthman returned the pages to Hafsa and he sent a copy of what they had copied out to every region and commanded that every sheet or copy which had any other form of the Qur'an should be burned. (Aisha Bewley, The Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari, Chapter 69. Book of the Virtues of the Qur'an; capital and italic emphasis ours) Another Islamic source writes: "If it is asked what was the point of ‘Uthman unifying people under a single copy of the Qur’an when Abu Bakr had already achieved that, then the response is that the aim of ‘Uthman was not to gather people in order to compile the Qur’an. Do you not see that he sent to Hafsa to ask her to give him the copy of the Qur’an so that it could be copied out and then returned to her? ‘Uthman did that BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE DISAGREEING ABOUT THE VARIOUS RECITATIONS owing to the fact that the Companions had spread to different areas AND HAD BEGUN TO STRONGLY DISAGREE, such as the conflict that took place between the people of Iraq and the people of Syria according to Hudhayfa. "They joined an expedition to Armenia and each group recited what had been transmitted to them. They disagreed and quarrelled AND SOME OF THEM CALLED THE OTHERS UNBELIEVERS, RENOUNCING THEM COMPLETELY, CURSING ONE ANOTHER. Hudhayfa WAS ALARMED at what he saw. As soon as he arrived back to Medina, according al-Bukhari and at-Tirmidhi, before returning to his house he went to ‘Uthman and said, ‘This Community has reached the stage where it will be destroyed!’ ‘Why?’ asked ‘Uthman. He said, ‘It is about the Book of Allah. I was on this expedition and some of the people of Iraq, Syria and the Hijaz came together.’ Then he described what had happened and said, ‘I fear that they will differ about their Book as the Jews and Christians differed.’ "This is the evidence of the falseness of those who say that the seven ahruf are the seven present readings, because there is no disagreement about them. Suwayd ibn Ghafala reported from ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib that ‘Uthman said, ‘What do you think about the copies of the Qur’an? The people have disagreed about the reciters until a man says, "My reading is better than your reading. My reading is better is more excellent than your reading." This is equivalent to disbelief.’ He replied, ‘What is your view, Amr al-Mu’minin?’ He said, ‘I think that we people should agree on one reading. If you differ today, those after you will disagree more strongly.’ ‘Ali said, ‘The correct opinion is yours, Amr al-Mu’minin.’… ‘Uthman returned the pages to Hafsa and he sent a copy of what they had copied out to every region and commanded of what sheet or copy which had any form of the Qur’an should be burned. ‘Uthman did this after gathering the Muhajirin and Ansar and a group of Muslims and consulting them about it… "Ibn Shihab said that he was told by ‘Ubaydullah ibn ‘Abdullah that ‘Abdullah ibn Mas‘ud disliked Zayd ibn Thabit copying out the Qur’an and said, ‘Company of Muslims, withdraw from making copies and entrusting it to one man. By Allah, I became Muslim while he was in the loins of an unbelieving father!’ meaning Zayd ibn Thabit. That is why ‘Abdullah ibn Mas‘ud said, ‘People of Iraq, CONCEAL THE COPIES OF THE QUR’AN YOU HAVE AND CONCEAL THEM. Allah says, "Those who misappropriate will arrive on the Day of Rising with what they have misappropriated."’ (Tafsir al-Qurtubi: Classical Commentary of the Holy Qur’an, translated by Aisha Bewley [Dar Al-Taqwa Ltd. 2003], Volume I, Introduction: ‘Uthmani Codex, pp. 52-53; capital and underline emphasis ours) There are several interesting points to glean from the above citation. First, the variations of the Quran were so great that Muslims started attacking each other and accusing one another of disbelief. This refutes the notion that the differences were minor, or merely dialectal in nature. Second, Hudhayfa’s statement regarding the disagreement among Muslims concerning the Quran being similar to the disagreements that Jews and Christians had in respect to their Scriptures is rather interesting since one of the main differences between them centered on the exact number of Books that God had inspired. For instance, the Jews who reject(ed) Christ did/do not accept the Christian Scriptures, and certain Christians regarded some of the OT apocryphal writings which the Jews had rejected as sacred Scripture. Hence, Hudhayfa’s comparison suggests that the various competing and conflicting Qurans which different Muslim groups were using did not contain the same number of chapters and verses, e.g. some of the Qurans had more chapters and verses than others. No wonder Uthman decided to burn copies of the Quran which were written by Muhammad’s companions! He had to get rid of the evidence which conclusively proved that the memory of the Muslims miserably failed to fully preserve the original wording of the Quran. Finally, notice that ‘Uthman decided to get rid of six of the seven ahruf or modes of the Quran, even though the hadith claims that Allah revealed all of them to Muhammad! Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab: I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat-al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, I listened to his recitation and noticed that he was reciting in a way that Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him while he was still in prayer, but I waited patiently and when he finished his prayer, I put my sheet round his neck (and pulled him) and said, "Who has taught you this Sura which I have heard you reciting?" Hisham said, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You are telling a lie, for he taught it to me in a way different from the way you have recited it!" Then I started leading (dragged) him to Allah's Apostle and said (to the Prophet), "I have heard this man reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way that you have not taught me." The Prophet said: "(O 'Umar) release him! Recite, O Hisham." Hisham recited in the way I heard him reciting. Allah's Apostle said, "It was REVEALEDlike this." Then Allah's Apostle said, "Recite, O 'Umar!" I recited in the way he had taught me, whereupon he said, "It was REVEALED like this," and added, "The Quran has been REVEALED to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever is easy for you." (See Hadith No. 514, Vol. 6) (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 640) The obvious question to ask is, who gave ‘Uthman and the other Muslims who agreed with him the right to destroy these various modes which Allah (supposedly) revealed to his (alleged) prophet, seeing that none of them were inspired messengers whom Allah spoke with? In light of such textual tampering, it shouldn’t come as a surprise to find Ibn 'Umar making the following candid admission: `Abdullah b. `Umar reportedly said, 'Let none of you say, “I have got the whole of the Qur'an.” How does he know what all of it is? MUCH OF THE QUR'AN HAS GONE. Let him say instead, “I have got what has survived.”' (Jalal al Din `Abdul Rahman b. Abi Bakr al Suyuti, al-Itqan fi `ulum al-Qur'an, Halabi, Cairo, 1935/1354, Volume 2, p. 25) Now we have a contradiction! The evidence which we presented from both the Quran and the early Islamic literature demonstrated that there were specific individuals who were corrupting the text of the Muslim scripture. However, this contradicts the following verses which say that no one is able to corrupt the words of Allah: Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all. S. 6:114-115 And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him. S. 18:27 If the words of Allah cannot be changed and yet, as the Quran itself admits, there were people that corrupted its text then this leaves us with the following options. Allah is a deceiver since he had no intention of ever protecting his words or of making sure that no one would corrupt the Quran’s text. Allah is impotent and incompetent since he wanted to preserve his words but couldn’t. Finite creatures were able to thwart Allah’s purpose in preserving the Quran since they managed to change the text. The Quran is not the word of Allah which is why he never bothered to preserve it exactly as Muhammad recited it, and didn’t waste his time preventing individuals from changing it. Now this is already bad enough, but if we add to this the Muslim claim that the Qur’an is eternal and did not merely come into being during Muhammad’s lifetime, then we have an additional problem. So far, the evidence for changes of the Quran contradicts the promise that nobody can change the words of Allah. Thus Allah was either unwilling or unable to uphold this promise. However, if the text of the Quran is eternal and existed (with Allah) before it was revealed to Muhammad, then not only was the promise that “no one can change His Words” (Q. 6:115; 18:27) contained in the eternal Quran and falsified by history, but also the passage Q. 15:90-93 speaking about “… the dividers, those who made the Quran into shreds…” was likewise already contained in it before Muhammad was born. Thus, Allah from eternity contradicted himself by claiming both – the corruption and the unchangeability of the Quran. So much for the Quran being a perfectly preserved and consistent revelation.

Now my friend. I believe the Authorised Version ( later renamed The King James ) is the Word of God and is without error or corruption. Do i think modern translations have corrupted the Word of God? Yes. So, show me the corruption of the KJV. WHO corrupted it and when? Also: I can provide proof the quran has been corrupted, but that is not the topic we are discussing.

How muslim friend, OneGodBeliever believes the Bible has been corrupted. He states: "You said bible isn't corrupted. Shall we discuss that? I say its clearly is with verses & whole books removed and also contradictions!" So, lets have a friendly, loving, open discussion on this

ROMAN CATHOLIC LIES, IMMORALITY and CORRUPTION. More than 50 popes show themselves to be atheists or unbelievers. The history of the popes records homosexuality, rape, murder, adultery, drunkenness, selling religious offices, etc. This behaviour is hardly fitting a "Holy Father" or "The Vicar of Christ". Examples include the following: 1. Pope Sergius III (904 - 911) obtained his office by murder. He fathered several illegitimate children by Marozia, who assassinated Pope Leo VI (928 - 929), and put her own teenage son (John XI) as Pope. 2. Pope John XII (955 - 964) is described in the Catholic Encyclopedia as a coarse, immoral man. The Catholic collection of the lives of the Popes, the "Liber Pontificalis" said: "He spent his entire life in adultery." Catholic bishop Luitprand states that "he had no respect for single girls, married woman or widows - they were sure to be defiled by him." 3. Pope Boniface VII (984 - 985), John XII and Leo VIII were described by the Bishop of Orleans as "monsters of guilt, reeking in blood and filth." 4. Pope John XV (985 - 996) split the churches finances among his relatives and was described as "covetous of filthy lucre and corrupt in all his acts." 5. Pope Benedict IX (1033 - 1045) committed murders and adulteries in broad daylight, robbed pilgrims, and was regarded as a hideous criminal. The people drove him out of Rome: The Catholic Encyclopedia says, "He was a disgrace to the chair of Peter." 6. Pope Innocent III (1198 - 1216) promoted the Inquisition, surpassing all his predecessors in killing over one million people. 7. Pope Boniface VIII (1294 - 1303). The Catholic Encyclopedia states "Scarcely any possible crime was omitted - heresy, gross and unnatural immorality, idolatry, magic, simony ... his whole pontificate was one record of evil." Dante visited Rome and described the Vatican as a "sewer of corruption" and assigned Boniface VII, Nicholas III and Clement V to the "lowest parts of hell." He proclaimed to be an atheist and in 1302 issued the "Unum Sanctum" officially declaring the Roman Catholic church as the only true church, outside of which no one can be saved. 8. Pope John XXIII (1410-1415) was accused by 37 clergy witnesses of fornication, adultery, incest, sodomy, simony, theft and murder. It was proved by a legion of witnesses that he had seduced and violated 300 nuns. He kept a harem at Boulogne of 200 girls. He was publicly called the devil incarnate. He has been called the most depraved criminal who ever sat on the papal throne. 9. Pope Pius II (1458 - 1464) fathered many illegitimate children and taught others to do likewise. 10. Pope Paul II (1464 - 1471) maintained a house full of concubines. 11. Pope Sixtus IV (1471 - 1484) financed his wars by selling church offices to the highest bidders. 12. Pope Innocent VII (1484 - 1492) fathered 16 illegitimate children by various women. 13. Pope Alexander VI (1492 - 1503) committed incest with his two sisters and daughter. On 31 October 1501, he conducted the worst ever Vatican sex orgy. 14. Pope Paul III (1534-1549) as a cardinal fathered 3 sons and a daughter. He consulted astrologers. 15. Pope Leo X (1513 - 1521) "was possessed by an insatiable love of pleasure, revelry and carousing. (Catholic Encyclopedia). Luther visited Rome & said: "No one can imagine what sins & infamous actions are committed in Rome." A saying was: "If there is a hell, Rome is built over it." 16. Pope Joan was a female pope whose name was changed to Pope Zacharias. Luther, on visiting Rome reported her statue in a back street. John Huss referred to her in his defence at the Council of Constance and this went unchallenged. She died in childbirth while in a public procession. 17. Pope Eugene IV (1431 - 1447) condemned Joan of Arc to be burned alive as a witch, but Pope Benedict IV (1919) declared her a saint. 18. Pope Stephen VI (896 - 897) brought the dead body of former Pope Formosus (891 - 897) to trial, hacked off his decaying finger and had him dragged through the streets of Rome and thrown into the Tiber river. 19. The "great schism" of 1378 lasted 50 years, where Italian and French popes cursed each other. Is this the same morally pure church that Christ left to preach the gospel? When confronted with such evil papal history, the Catholic church, which claims "infallibility", teaches that "A sinful pope ... remains a member of the church, and ... from whom we may not withdraw obedience." Catholic Encyclopedia Volume 4, page 435. Jesus said in Matthew 7:18,20, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit ... by their fruits ye shall know them." 20. Pope Alexander III decreed in 1170 that wills had to be made in front of a priest, or excommunication (cutting off from church and sentence to hell) would result. The Catholic church has much to be embarrassed about in it's history, as seen from these 20 popes.

IDOLATRY. This is MAKING IMAGES. The Catholic Council of Trent declares that: "It is lawful to have images in the church and to give honour and worship to them. ... Images are put in churches that they may be worshipped." The Oxford dictionary defines an idol as: "An image used as an object of worship. A person or thing that is the object of excessive devotion." An Idolater is a devoted admirer of idols. Answer: What does the Bible say about images and idols? 1. Exodus 20:4, 5. a) Thou shalt not MAKE unto thee ANY graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. b) Thou shalt not BOW DOWN thyself to them. c) Nor SERVE them. If you make any graven image you’ve broken this commandment, whether you worship it or not. Question 1: Do Catholics MAKE graven images? Yes. Question 2: Do Catholics KNEEL down to statues of Mary or Jesus? Yes. Question 3: Do Catholics SERVE Mary? Yes, as in "Legion of Mary." 2. Leviticus 26:1. a) "You shall make you NO IDOLS nor GRAVEN IMAGE. b) Neither rear you up a STANDING IMAGE. c) Neither shall ye set up any IMAGE OF STONE in your land to bow down unto it." Question 4: Do Catholics rear up STANDING IMAGES? Yes. Question 5: Do Catholics set up any IMAGE OF STONE? Yes. 3. Deuteronomy 4:16. "Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and MAKE you a GRAVEN IMAGE, the similitude of ANY FIGURE, the likeness of MALE or FEMALE." Question 6: Do Catholics make graven images of MALE or FEMALE? Yes. Mary is a female. Jesus and the apostles are males. 4. Deuteronomy 16:22. "Neither shalt thou SET thee UP ANY IMAGE: which the Lord thy God HATES." Question 7: Do Catholics SET UP ANY IMAGES? Yes. Question 8: Does God HATE IMAGES? Yes. 5. 1 Thessalonians 1:9. "How ye turned to God FROM IDOLS to serve the living and true God." Question 9: Did the early Christians turn FROM IDOLS? Yes. 6. Deuteronomy 27:15. "CURSED be the man that MAKES ANY GRAVEN or MOLTEN IMAGE, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place." Question 10: Does God put a curse on any person that makes any image? Yes. Question 11: Why does God call an image an ABOMINATION? Because He hates it. 7. Isaiah 40:18,19. "To whom then will ye liken God? or what LIKENESS will ye compare unto him? The workman melteth a graven image" Note: God has no visible form and we cannot liken him to any material object. The Catholic answer is that they say that they do not worship images. God's reply is not to MAKE IMAGES. 8. The early Christians had NO IMAGES. Early Christian writers such as Irenaeus, Clement, Cyprian, Athanasius, and Jerome, wrote strongly AGAINST images, statues and any manner of prayer or veneration regarding them. The Council of Constantinople in 381 AD voted unanimously to remove all images from the churches. 9. The Catholic church removes the second commandment against MAKING graven images from the list of 10 Commandments in Exodus 20:1-17. This presents them with the problem of only having 9 commandments. They resolve this problem by splitting commandment number 10 into 9 and 10 as follows: 9. You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife. 10. You shall not covet your neighbour’s goods. This is seen in the book "A brief summary of the Ten Commandments" by the Daughters of St. Paul, p.12,13: WHAT ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD? The Catholic Catechism The Bible The Commandments of God are these ten: "I am the Lord your God: 1. You shall not have strange Gods before me. 1. No other gods. [omitted] 2. No Graven Images. 2. You shall not take the name of the Lord 3. Don’t take God’s Name in vain. your God in vain. 3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's day. 4. Keep Sabbath Day Holy. 4. Honor your father and your mother. 5. Honour Father and Mother. 5. You shall not kill. 6. Don’t Murder. 6. You shall not commit adultery. 7. Don’t Commit Adultery. 7. You shall not steal. 8. Don’t Steal. 8. You shall not bear false witness 9. Don’t bear False Witness. 9. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife. 10. Don’t Covet. 10. You shall not covet your neighbour's goods." Exodus 20:1-17. The number Two Commandment should be “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.” 20:4 Check your Catechism to see if they have left it out. Question: Why do you think they left it out? 10. Every Catholic institution has images of Mary, Jesus, male and female figures. An example of this are two statues at the French Papal Palace of Avignon, one of Jesus about 10 metres above ground level, and the other is an enormous statue of Mary, much larger, grander and higher up than that of Jesus. This gives greater honour to Mary than to Jesus. It also clearly breaks the second commandment forbidding making images of things in heaven. Question: Who do we believe, the Word of God or the Catholic Church? "We ought to obey God, rather than men." Acts 5:29.

INDULGENCES. Definition: A person after confessing his sins to a priest, in order to be free from the punishment still due for his sins, requires the church to pray for his rehabilitation. The person must do penance works such as fasting, making pilgrimages, giving money, making prayers or inflicting pain on oneself, as a penalty for sins committed. Historically, people found it easier to pay money to the Roman Catholic church than to pray for long hours. The Roman Catholic church preferred money because the Pope ran out of cash in building St Peter’s Basilica in Rome. So the Roman Catholic church issued the person with an official statement that he had received release from the penalties through the payment of money. This document was called an indulgence. They could be bought for friends and relatives who had died and passed into purgatory, thus shortening the time that they would have to spend there. Martin Luther objected to Tetzel, a Catholic indulgence seller, who publicly announced to people that if they put a coin in a box, a dead relative's soul would immediately pop out of purgatory. His advertising slogan was: "As the coin in you pop, a soul from purgatory doth hop." Answer: Obviously, this teaching cannot be found in the Bible. After Word War II, the Archbishop of Winnipeg asked mothers who had sons killed in the war, to pay $40 to have masses said on behalf of their sons to guarantee their salvation and entrance to heaven. This practice continues in many parts of the world, and accounts for the great wealth of the Catholic church as seen in the big cathedrals it builds. Which Bible verses forbid indulgence selling? 1. Jesus warns against this practice in Matthew 23:14, a verse that Catholics have cut out of modern Bible versions. "Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye devour widows houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation." The Pharisees of Jesus' day, as well as Catholic priests of today, tell widows that their dead husband has gone to purgatory. They ask her if she wants him to go to heaven. If yes, she will have to pay the priest to say a mass to pray for his soul to leave purgatory. Widows don't usually have much money, so he tells her to sell her house to pay for it. This is how widows houses are devoured by priests who for a pretense make long prayers. 2. The Israelites were forbidden to give money for the dead. "None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him." Psalms 49:7. No gift of money can save another person. Only the blood of Christ can. 3. Peter says: "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold ... but with the precious blood of Christ." 1 Peter 1:18,19. Nobody is redeemed with indulgence money. 4. Simon the sorcerer offered the apostles money so that anyone that he laid hands on would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Peter rebuked him strongly in Acts 8:20-23 saying: "Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the GIFT OF GOD may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness." Salvation is the gift of God that each of us must claim freely for ourselves when we call on Christ to be our Saviour. No baptism, eucharist, confessional to a priest, penance, extreme unction, or paying money can save us, only faith in Christ's precious saving blood to pay for our sins.

EXTREME UNCTION. This sacrament states that "At the end of life, sin can be totally undone and man is prepared for immediate entrance into everlasting glory." This idea is found NOWHERE in the Bible. This will not get a dying person into heaven. His only hope is to receive Jesus Christ as his own Saviour, trusting Christ's blood sacrifice on the cross as the full payment for all his sin. Mark 6:13 is the Catholic defense for this error, yet this verse says nothing about dying people, but only about demonised and sick people being healed. When Pope Pius XII died in 1958, his personal physician was dismissed for telling of his frightful and terrifying fear of death and hell. Question: Since the Pope isn’t sure of heaven, how can he help Catholics get to heaven? Answer: Keeping the sacraments is a net that traps Catholics into believing that they will get to heaven by good works. The sacrament system enslaves a person's mind to the Roman Catholic church from the cradle to the grave. Nobody was ever saved in the Bible by keeping the sacraments. Catholic children are trapped into the sacrament system around age seven or eight years old, when they have neither the knowledge of the Bible nor the maturity to test it with the Word of God. Question: How can Catholics escape the trap of the sacraments? Answer: By calling on Jesus Christ to be their only Savior; by basing their life on the Word of God.

PAPAL INFALLIBILITY (declared in 1870 AD). Definition: When a pope is speaking in his official position on any issue of faith or morals, he is speaking infallibly, meaning without error. Answer: The apostles never regarded any man to be infallible. Only the Word of God is regarded as without error. If Peter was pope, which the Bible says he was not, then he made mistakes as in Galatians 2:11-14 when he was deceived by Judaizers. "But when Peter came to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." The following events from history show the error of papal infallibility. 1. Pope John XII, in the "Liber Pontificalis," the Catholic publication discussing the lives of the popes, states that "He spent his entire life in adultery." 2. Popes Innocent III, Gregory XI, Clement IV, Hadrian VI, and Paul IV all disagreed with papal infallibility. 3. Pope Stephen VI (896) had the dead pope Formosus (891-6) tried, questioned, fingers hacked off, dragged through Rome and thrown into the Tiber river. 4. Pope Hadrian II (867) declared civil marriage to be valid, but Pope Pius VII (1800-23) declared it to be invalid. 5. Pope Eugene IV (1431) had Joan of Arc burned alive as a witch, but later Pope Benedict IV in 1919 declared her to be a saint. 6. Pope Pius XI in 1929 endorsed Fascism and called Mussolini "a man sent by God." However, before World War II, he warned people against Mussolini. 7. The Vatican advised the German Catholic Party to vote for Nazi candidates. In 1933, the Vatican and Hitler signed a concordat, where the Catholic church swore allegiance to the Nazi government. Later on Pope Pius XI condemned Hitler. How can a supposedly infallible man make so many errors of judgment, and even contradict other so-called infallible popes? Surely this disproves papal infallibility to any honest, open minded person.

Please don't reply with "this is too long, no-one will read it". If you are the kind of person who would say that, then this post is not for you. Journey to Mount Sinai (Jabal Al Lawz). God Supplies His People’s Needs. Bible Reading: Exodus 15:27—16:18; 17:1-16; 19:1-8. See “The Exodus Case” (TEC) p.233-277. Aim: To discover archaeological proofs for the events of the Exodus. To learn lessons from each event. Introduction: Go to www.youtube.com and search for “Mount Sinai- proof of the supernatural”. What evidence from archaeology supports the events of the Exodus journey to Mount Horeb (Sinai)? Israel having crossed the Red Sea to Baal Zephon on the east coast of the Gulf of Aqaba, now enters the wilderness of Shur (NW Saudi Arabia), and after three day’s journey run out of water (Exodus 15:22). 1. At Marah they find bitter, salty water, so Moses prays to God. “he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD shewed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them,” Exodus 15:25. Lesson: When we pass through bitter experiences, die to self and bring Christ into our problems. On modern Arabian maps, there is a place near Jabal Al Lawz called “Ain Marra” (the bitter spring). 2. At Elim they find 12 wells and 70 palm trees (Exodus 15:27). Today in this same area there is an oasis of 12 wells and about 250 palm trees. (See TEC p.237). Israel left Egypt on the 15th day of the first month. They leave Elim on the fifteenth day of the second month “they took their journey from Elim,… on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt.” Exodus 16:1. Lesson: When we pass through trials, God often comforts us with blessings afterwards. (Angels.Mat.4:11) 3. They now enter the Desert of Sin on their way to Mount Sinai (Horeb). Israel accuse Moses and Aaron of “ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.” Exodus 16:3. God promised “in the evening flesh to eat, and in the morning bread to the full;” Exodus 16:8. Quail’s meat and manna bread was God’s answer. Psalm 78:23-25 calls manna “angels’ food”. Manna means “what is it”? Manna tasted like coriander seed (16:31). It was their diet for 40 years. Josephus tells that ‘It supplied the want of other sorts of food to those that fed on it.’ (Antiquities, Book 3, chap 1.6,p67). Lesson: God supplies the needs of His people in greater ways than we expect. 4. At Rephidim, meaning encampment, they lacked water, so they get angry at Moses (Exodus 17:1-7). God is teaching His people to trust Him to supply their needs. Moses brings the problem to God (17:4). God tells Moses, “Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink.” (17:6). Notice: i) Who stood on the rock? It was Jehovah God the Son who later was born of Mary as Jesus Christ. ii) “The rock of Horeb” means that it was a large rock and it was close to Mount Horeb. iii) Moses smitting the rock is a picture of Jesus Christ being smitten on the cross to pay for our sins. iv) Water flowing out of the rock pictures eternal life made available from Christ’s death on the cross. v) Josephus calls this pleasant, sweet water a river (Antiq. 3.1.7). The translator of Josephus’ works, William Whiston (1667-1752) comments that this rock can still be seen in the area of Horeb, being too big to be moved by horse and cart. Hence it was an obvious rock for all to see. Erosion should still be visible. Is this rock visible today? There is one rock that is west of Horeb that fits the evidence. It is 20 metres tall, split down the middle, on a small hill, & the rock at the foot of the crack has been eroded (TEC 243-246). Lesson: Don’t get angry at those seeking to help you. God supplies our needs in unexpected ways. 5. War with the Amalekites at Rephidim (Exodus 17:8-16). The Amalekites attacked Israel at Rephidim. The Amalekites raised camels and lived from assault and robbery. Arab tradition considers the Amalekites to be the oldest tribe in Arabia & the founders of Medina, Mohammad’s city. This battle proves that Israel was in Arabia (Midian) after crossing the Red Sea. Israel was now armed with weapons from the dead Egyptians at the Red Sea. Moses appoints Joshua as army commander. Moses climbs a hill at Rephidim to pray for victory. As long as Aaron and Hur kept Moses’ hands uplifted in prayer, Israel wins the battle. Josephus states how Joshua appointed soldiers to protect the water, women, children and the camp. Israel prepared all night for the battle which lasted all the next day until nightfall when Israel took their camp and a vast amount of riches, silver, gold, brass vessels, weapons, cattle, furniture and battle confidence. No Hebrews were killed, but the slain Amalekites were too many to number. Moses built an altar to offer sacrifices to God, which he named “Jehovah-Nissi” meaning “Jehovah the Conqueror” (Ant.3.2.5 p.69). About 300 metres from the split rock of Horeb, on the plain, stands a stone altar (TEC 248), likely built by Moses where he prayed, to commemorate this victory. This was the last camp before Mount Horeb (Sinai). Lesson: Satan uses evil people to oppose and hinder our work for God. Prayer gives victory in battles. 6. Moses meets Jethro at Rephidim in Midian (Exodus 18:1-27). Moses from age 40-80 was exiled in Midian (Arabia). It was on Mount Horeb (Sinai) where Jehovah appeared to him at the burning bush to send him to lead Israel out of Egypt. Moses took his wife Zipporah and their two sons Gershom and Eliezer to Egypt (Exodus 4:20), but coming out of Egypt, he sent them on to be with his father in law Jethro (Reuel) the high priest in Midian, while Moses crossed the Red Sea. When Moses meets Jethro, he describes how God delivered Israel from Egypt (18:8). Jethro suggests Moses to “provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens: And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge:” (18:21,22). Lesson: Consult Godly advisors. Delegate some work to others. 7. At Mount Horeb (Mount Sinai) (Exodus 19:1-25). Israel journeys from Rephidim into the wilderness of Sinai to camp before Mount Horeb to worship God (19:1,2). Israel left Egypt on the 15th day of the first month (Numbers 33:3). They arrive at Mount Horeb on the 15th day of the third month (Exodus 19:1), the journey taking two months. It took a week to reach Nuweiba and they spent 7 weeks in north-west Arabia. God has tested Israel by hunger, thirst and a war. This mount is known as “Mount Horeb”, “Mount Sinai”, “The mountain of God” and “Jabal Al Lawz”. Horeb means “dry or desolate”. See map TEC p.251-253. i) Israel camped on the east side of Horeb. On the Israelites route and at Horeb, many stone circles have been found. These were either for tents or for cattle enclosures. See photos in TEC p.255,256. ii) God promises that if Israel obeys and keeps God’s covenant, then Israel will be a peculiar treasure (5). Israel tells God “All that the LORD hath spoken we will do” (19:8). God promises to come in 3 days (11). iii) God tells Moses to set bounds “that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it:” (19:12). Stones picturing untied shoes marking a holy place have been found at the base of Mt Horeb (TEC 257). iv) Josephus says that Horeb is the highest mountain in the area (2580 metres). The top is flat where God met Moses and the 70 elders (24:9). v) Moses built an altar at the foot of Horeb (24:4). At the foot of Horeb, we find a stone altar with two pathways for sheep and oxen (20:24) leading to the altar to be sacrificed (TEC 258-259). “An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen:” (Exodus 20:24). vi) 12 Stone Pillars. Moses “builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.” (24:4). Today, within the sacred area below the rock face we see 10 stone pillars standing in a semicircle, with two empty places for missing pillars. Some are upright & some are fallen over (266). vii) A one acre flat plateau exists on Mount Horeb where Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and 70 elders met Jehovah God the Son who came down to eat and drink with these men (24:1-18). (TEC 252,260,261). “they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.” (Exodus 24:10,11) viii) The Cave where Elijah lived when he met God is found here on Horeb (TEC 261). “he arose, and did eat and drink, and went in the strength of that meat forty days and forty nights unto Horeb the mount of God. And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there;” I Kings 19:8,9. ix) The Water supply. When Moses struck the rock in Horeb, so much water flowed out for 2 million people and cattle, that it collected as a 7 metre deep lake at the foot of the mountain (TEC 262). To ensure good quality drinking water, double-walled wells 6 metres wide, were dug along the banks of this lake below Mt Horeb. Sand and gravel between the walls acted as a water filtration and purification system. x) The Altar to the Golden Calf (Exodus 32:1-35). When Moses was in Mt Horeb receiving God’s laws for 40 days, the Israelites grew impatient and pressured Aaron to build an Egyptian golden calf and altar to worship. Moses saw it as he descended the mount. Moses destroyed the calf, but the altar still remains with many Egyptian bull carvings on it (TEC 263,265). Saudi authorities have enclosed this sacred area. xi) Mt Horeb on fire. “mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, ….the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount:” (Exodus 19:18). The top of Horeb is black, caused by the intense heat and fire of God, but the rest of the mountain is brown, separated by a clear border line (TEC 251,272-276). Black obsidian rock, which is formed at high temperatures then dipped in water, is found on top of Horeb. Conclusion: God helps us and brings us through life’s trials. Archaeology proves the Bible to be true.

Great, Yes, the textus receptus or RECEIVED text. As opposed to the corrupt codex vaticanus ( found in a TRASHCAN! how apt! ) and the westcott and hort nonsense. Start with the CORRECT texts and you cant go wrong.

Yes. They re-define words to fit their warped theology. The key word is "till" as you have mentioned. In other words "until", meaning up until that point.

bear in mind that all translations did NOT come from just ONE textline, but two. Antioch and alexandria

Wow. how offensive.

Another strange belief of mormonism is that God the father used be a man on another planet who had to earn His way to become one God among MANY Gods. "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil,... It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, ...and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; ...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another,... from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 14, p. 305-6). "It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being" (Deseret News, Nov. 16, 1859, p. 290). "Our father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47). "I know that God is a being with body, parts and passions...Man was born of woman; Christ, the Savior, was born of woman; and God, the Father was born of woman" (Deseret News, Church News, Sept. 19, 1936, p. 2). "The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 64) Joseph Smith: "I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years." Joseph Smith: "The head God organized the heavens and the earth. I defy all the world to refute me. In the beginning the heads of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth."

Yes, but drums and electric guitar and female "song leaders" are another thing

Well, you should know you are in a church and not a rock concert. Females SHOULD dress modestly. Ladies should NOT wear mens clothing. ie: pants.

So you are happy to make statements, but not happy to back them up? What a shame.

Yes. According to their anti-Biblical teachings, mary was conceived and born without sin, did not die but ascended to heaven to become queen of heaven, that only SHE can get Jesus to say "yes" to our prayers and salvation cries, that mary remained a virgin, etc. "He has only to let them make Pius IX a god, as we have made a goddess of the blessed Virgin." - Bishop Strossmayer Pope Leo XIII, Adjutricem populi, 5 September 1895: O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee. None, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee. None receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee. From Bishop Liguoris' "The Glories of Mary", APPROVED by the vatican! "She (Mary) is . . . the ONLY hope of sinners: (p. 69),"We will be heard and saved sooner by going to Mary, and invoking her holy name, than that of Jesus our Savior. We will find salvation sooner going to the mother than going to the Son" (p. 82),"Many things asked of God and not received are asked and received from Mary (p. 82). All obey the precepts of Mary, even God" (p. 115). The catholic organisation teaches that mary is "Debtor to sinners", "Ladder and vehicle to Heaven", "Throne of grace", "Dispensatrix of graces". These are all LIES, for these titles belong to Jesus Christ, NOT mary. "honor the Virgin Mary, and ye shall have life and eternal salvation" "For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them" ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X ON THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION Given at Rome in St. Peter's on the second day of February, 1904, in the first year of Our Pontificate. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html "Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone." St. John Chrysostom "All those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity." Pope Benedict XV Pope Pius IX in 1854 “Let all the children of the Catholic Church ... Proceed to worship, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God. ” "We have an advocate in Mary that the father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot say no to. It is impossible for them to say no to her! -Fr. Stephan Scheier “Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.” ( Doesn’t this sound like worship? ) Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.” Pope Pius IX said, “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.” According to the Bible, this is a lie. Jesus Christ is our ONLY salvation. We are told this plainly and simply in Acts4:12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” ALL HOLY - Mary, the All-Holy, lived a perfectly sinless life. (Catechism 411, 493) Romans 3:23 says "For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Revelation 15:4 says, "Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou ONLY art holy." Romans 3:10 says, There is NONE righteous, no, not one." Luke2:22,24 proves she needed purification from sin.

That is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard!