OldCoot

All of those words with little substance. like clouds with no water.

If that is the case, and the righteous are caught up and immediately come right on down with Yeshua to rule with him, then who would be left to be the sheep of the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25 and Joel 3? It would seem if the righteous were gathered as you suggest, that when Yeshua lands on the earth, all that is left is goats. But it says the judgement is after He assumes control and judges the nations.

Oh, there is indeed a removal of the righteous or “rapture” if one wants to use that word. The OT has many passages that support the idea the righteous, both dead and living just like Paul wrote, will be “hidden” in their “chambers” in the pavilion of the Lord. Isaiah, Zephaniah, David, et al all wrote about it as happening before or at the start of the “time of Jacob’s Trouble, which is the calamities many call the 70th week or “tribulation” period.

The only kink in equating the catching up with the same coming where Yeshua physically returns to the earth is, if the righteous are caught up at that time when Yeshua is returning to take over and rule, then who would be left to be the sheep of the nations (Matthew 25 / Joel 3)?

When one analyses all that Hitler said and did, along with the total Nazi experiment, it was just a dress rehearsal for the future Antichrist who will warp things more than even Hitler thought to do. The truly bizarre thing is, many in the Nazi regime thought that they were carrying out God's will and just taking Luther's nationalism and antisemitism to the ultimate level. Along with Luther's rampant Jew hatred, he was a virulent national socialist that disagreed with individual liberty. It is truly sad that the guy started out really getting things right regarding justification by faith alone, and then went into the sewer of demon inspired hatred in his latter years.

Try taking a look at some of Hitler's speeches and read Mein Kampf and you will have your answer. Hitler at one rally stated specifically that... I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work. - Adolf Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936 From a Treatise done by Daphne Olsen at Rollins College in 2012..... It is impossible to assume that Luther did not have any influence on Hitler and his views. Hitler refers to Martin Luther as one of the great reformers of history, and as such, one of the “great warriors of this World.”109 It cannot be mere coincidence that Hitler’s anti-Jewish sentiment of the 1930s and 1940s mirrors that of Luther’s anti-Semitism of the 1500s. In fact, the Nazis themselves acknowledged Martin Luther as their spiritual leader. When on trial in Nuremberg, Germany after World War II, one of Hitler’s top officials declared, "Dr. Martin Luther would very probably sit in my place in the defendants’ dock today, if this book had been taken into consideration by the prosecution. Dr. Martin Luther writes that the Jews are a serpent’s brood and one should burn down their synagogues and destroy them. -Luther and Hitler: A Linear Connection between Martin Luther and Adolf Hitler’s Anti-Semitism with a Nationalistic Foundation, Daphne M. Olsen, Rollins College, 2012 From the same treatise above.... Some people in Hitler’s time went so far as to believe that Hitler was the reincarnation of Luther; the Minister of Education in Nazi Germany wrote: Since Martin Luther closed his eyes, no such son of our people has appeared again. It has been decided that we shall be the first to witness his reappearance... I think the time is past when one may not say the names of Hitler and Luther in the same breath. They belong together – they are of the same old stamp. And yet another example from the the treatise by Olsen.... It was during the Nuremberg Trials that Julius Streicher, one of Hitler’s top officials and the publisher of Der Stürmer, an anti-Semitic newspaper, was quoted as saying that Martin Luther would be on trial as well, if On the Jews and Their Lies had been taken into consideration. And.... When Luther turned his attention to the Jews, after he completed his translation of the Bible, he left behind "on the Jews and their Lies" for posterity. -Walter Buch [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's "The Holy Reich"] So long as the Bible was available to us only in a foreign language, so long as it was only spoken to us in Latin, we could only grasp it as things are grasped through the iron gloves of a knight: he is aware of the shape and weight , but can only feel iron. When Luther made the Bible accessible to Germans in the glorious German language, it was as if we had cast off the iron glove and with the flesh and blood of our German hand were finally able to grasp our unique character.... The older and more experienced he became, the less he could understand one particular type of person: this was the Jew. His engagement against the decomposing Jewish spirit is clearly evident not only from his writing against the Jews; his life too was idealistically, philosophically antisemitic. Now we Germans of today have the duty to recognize and acknowledge this. -Hans Schemm, "Luther und das Deutschtum," Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf (19 Nov. 1933: Berlin), [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's "The Holy Reich"]

Yep, Iran is a a happening place for the Gospel! Many Persians are embracing the Gospel at great risk. I am firmly convinced that this is a major move of the Lord as time is getting short and He desires to save many before the major calamities of the end times come upon the earth. The Iranian situation is a great example of how the Lord will reveal Himself to those who have very little or no exposure to the traditional Gospel message. I have talked with several missionaries to the middle east and they are enthralled at how the Lord is moving among the Islamic nations.

Yeshua equated a pearl with the righteous in Matthew 13. A pearl is started in an oyster as a response to an irritation. It grows by accretion over time. When ready, it is removed from the oyster and set as an item of adornment. So is the wonderful believers in China and other countries where persecution is the order of the day. What a wonderful, eternal adornment these believers will be for the Lord forever!

As has been stated so aptly before in many venues..... we have indeed entered the twilight zone. Romans 1 is in full bloom right before our eyes.

Agreed, Paul does not give the time of the rapture in 2 Thessalonians. He merely says that it will happen before the man of sin is revealed. Agreed, the "that day" being referenced in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is referring to the aforementioned topic of the passage, the "day of the Lord" from verse 1. But likewise, verse 1 is also talking about the gathering or rapture as part of that. So I guess one could say that the rapture does precede the "day of the Lord", but the trigger that starts that period is the affirming of the covenant of Daniel 9:27, which many feel is done by the man of sin / son of perdition / antichrist. And 2 Thessalonians is pretty clear that the departure or removal must occur first, then the man of sin is revealed. Likewise in the same passage, it says that He who restrains is taken out of the way, then the Lawless One (same guy) will be revealed. The only thing that can restrain evil is the Holy Spirit. And the redeemed are sealed by the Holy Spirit. So if He is taken out of the way, so are the redeemed that He is sealing. And Isaiah 26.. front to back... is pretty clear on the timing. Right out of the starting gate, there is a tie in with Revelation 4:1.... Isaiah 26:2 (NKJV) Open the gates, That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in. Revelation 4:1 (NKJV) After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." the Hebrew and the Greek have equivalent meanings. And the "righteous nation" is a tie to 1 Peter 2:9, which likewise is a tie back got Revelation 5:10 regarding the 24 Elders, which has its own tie to 1 Chronicles 24 where David established the 24 courses of the Priests. further down, Isaiah ties this happening at the start of the birth pains, which ties into Jeremiah 30:6-7.... Isaiah 26:17 (NKJV) As a woman with child is in pain and cries out in her pangs, when she draws near the time of her delivery, so have we been in Your sight, O Lord. Jeremiah 30:6-7 (NKJV) Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? 7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. And there is the tie in to Matthew 24 Olivet discourse regarding no day being like it. And later in the passage, the dead are resurrected and the righteous are told to come and enter their chambers which is a tie in to John 14 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17..... Isaiah 26:20-21 (NKJV) Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain. Which also ties into Zephaniah 2:3... Zephaniah 2:3 (NKJV Strong's) Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the Lord's anger. John 14:2-3 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NKJV) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. Cliff

One must also view any verse in the context of the passage it is in. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, the departure is referenced as occurring before the man of sin is revealed. That is supported further in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8. Every English translation prior to the KJV, and including the Latin Vulgate, state it is a departure, not a falling away or rebellion. Both verb (aphistemi) and noun (apostasia) require a subject to what is being departed from to determine if it is spatial physical departure or a spiritual departure. And in verse 3, no subject is provided as to what is being "departed" from, so we have to use the general context of the passage, which is a gathering to the Lord. For instance, a spatial departure is in view in... Luke 2:37 (NKJV) and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart [aphistemi, verb form of apostasia] from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And a spiritual departure is seen here.... 1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV) Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart [aphistemi, verb form of apostasia] from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, The only other use of "apostasia", the noun form, in scripture is in Acts 21:21, where the specific object of what is being departed from is mentioned.... Acts 21:21 (NKJV) but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia, noun form] Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. In that context, it is both a spiritual and spatial departure or distancing from Torah. The idea that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of a spatial "departure" and not a "spiritual departure" or "falling away" or "rebellion" is in keeping with both the grammar and context. The context is laid out in verse 1, our gathering to the Lord, not our departing from the Lord. And in conjunction with many prophets in scripture, it is further supported that this is a reference to the removal of the righteous prior to the end time calamities, with the specific in 2 Thessalonians 2 being before the man of sin / son of perdition / antichrist is revealed. Where people tend to get confused in equating the coming to gather the righteous in the air to be with the Lord with the coming where the Lord returns with the righteous and sets foot on the earth and vanquishes the enemies coming against Jerusalem. One is outside the earth, one is on the earth. One is to gather the righteous, one is coming with the righteous. Two unique events. Also, these Thessalonians had been told thru a forged letter (verse 2) that they were in the Day of the Lord, which is a common reference to the tribulation period. Probably because of intense persecution these folks were experiencing. Paul had to allay their fears and remind them that "that day" would not come unless the departure comes first, then the man of sin will be revealed.

It was everyone who crucified Yeshua (Jesus), not just Jews.... Acts 4:27 (NKJV) "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together Your application of Revelation 3:9 is faulty. That is speaking of those who lay claim that the church has replaced Israel, i.e. Replacement Theology, Two House Theology, and the myriads of off shoots... those that say they are Jews and are not. Indeed, within Messiah there is neither Jew nor Gentile, just as there is neither male or female, and likewise, being in Messiah does not make a gentile a Jew and being in Messiah does not take away a Jew's lineage as a Jew. Just like even in Messiah there is still a physical earthly distinction of male and female, there is still a physical, earthly distinction of who is of Israel and who is not. Even Paul noted that distinction and still called Jews his brethren who had yet to come to faith in Messiah (Romans 9:3).

Not sure if this has made it on another thread but I thought it would be apropos to stick it here for viewing. The recent Open Doors t0p 50 counties for Christian persecution. Make the list a part of your daily prayer life and remember the brothers and sisters who are suffering, that their lives will be a testimony of the Lord. Pray that those who come against the believers, that their eyes will be opened and they will also come to faith in Yeshua / Jesus. https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/world-watch-list/

Have you actually read the Tanakh? Stuff like Isaiah 53, Psalms 22, etc. Even what Yeshua wrote in the dirt in John 8 was prophesied in Jeremiah 17. And grace has always been a part of scripture from the time that the Lord made coverings for Adam and Eve, thru King David, on into the NT. There never has been any difference. And the Cross is not found in the Torah? If you take the sizes of the various tribes, and when they camped in the wilderness they were either on the North, South, East, or West side. There boundary could not extend beyond the width of the side they were camped on. If you were to see the layout from a high vantage point like a mountain, you would see the cross laid out below. Even the Passover lamb. It was roasted in an upright position supported by a sticks in the shape of a cross. The Blood was placed on the door mantle and sides in Eqypt as prescribed by the Lord so the death angel would pass over. That blood on the mantle, the sides, and the bowl of blood at the threshold of the door is the shape of a cross. Now.... go and study.

Matthew 16:18 (NKJV) And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Future tense, yet to happen, not an extension or continuation. Israel as a congregation or ekklesia (called out assembly) is not the Church. They are distinct entities. ἐκκλησία STRONG’S NUMBER: g1577 Dictionary Definition g1577. ἐκκλησία ekklēsia; from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): — assembly, church. AV (118) - church 115, assembly 3; a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating, the assembly of the Israelites, any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously, in a Christian sense an assembly of Christians gathered...

Then explain how Israel (both houses) are responsible for Yeshua returning to His place with the Father until Israel acknowledges its offense of rejecting Him? And He states clearly that He will not return until they acknowledge that offense and petition for His return. Hosea 5:14-15 and Matthew 23:37-39 / Luke 13:34-35. When did the Church, being Israel as some suppose, reject the Messiah and cause Him to return to His place, especially since He returned to His place before the church was born in Acts 2? And unlike some seem to think, that the "congregation" mentioned in the OT regarding Israel is the same as the "church" in the NT, Yeshua talks in future tense here.... Matthew 16:18 (NKJV) And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. The tense is a future building of the unique entity called the "church" or "body of Messiah". Thereby delineating Israel and the Church as unique entities. Israel as a corporate body must still acknowledge its offense of rejecting Him the first time and turn to Him and petition for His return as the condition of His return. The church has nothing to do with it. It rests solely on Israel.

True enough, salvation has always been by grace. But there has been dispensations that reveal more of the Lord, His plan, His purposes, and His standards. The Adamic Covenant was very limited in requirements and revealing of the purpose of the Lord. Only after the Covenant was broken by Adam's fall did the Lord reveal a Messiah would come from the seed of the woman. The Noahide Covenant, extended legal requirements were outlined, many of which coincide with much of the 10 Commandments. It was made with all mankind in view from Noah onward. Legal requirements regarding murder, no eating of blood, all living things were fit for food, etc. The Abrahamic Covenant, the requirement of circumcision was made for Abraham and all his descendants. That thru Abraham and his descendants, the earth would be blessed, thus revealing more of the purpose and plan of God. Made only with Abraham, confirmed to Isaac and Jacob later. The Mosaic Covenant, setting the legal and ceremonial standard for the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, establishing them as a unique nation set apart from other nations and be a witness to the nations of the Lord. The Davidic Covenant, further amplifying the purpose and plan of God by stating that a descendent of David would rule on David's throne or authority forever. Affirmed again by Gabriel to Mary in Luke 1:32. Each one a dispensation or revealing more of God and His purpose. This from Merriam-Webster..... dis·pen·sa·tion | \ ˌdi-spən-ˈsā-shən , -ˌspen- \ Definition of dispensation 1a: a general state or ordering of things specifically : a system of revealed commands and promises regulating human affairs a privilege maintained under the new dispensation b: a particular arrangement or provision especially of providence or nature involving special dispensation by the Church 2a: an exemption from a law or from an impediment, vow, or oath may be granted a dispensation from the rule b: a formal authorization requested a dispensation to form another lodge

No it does not. In both noun (apostasia) and verb (aphistemi) form, what the word implies is based on the context it is used. Just like in English. It started raining, so Joe ran home. (verb) While at the store, I ran into a neighbor. (verb) Same word, both in verb form, but entirely different meanings. I saw Joe yesterday and he said he went on a run. (noun) My neighbor said he had started his political campaign run. (noun) Same word, noun form, but different meanings. Luke 2:37 and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart (aphistemi) from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. (a physical departure is in view) 1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart (aphistemi) from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, (a spiritual departure is in view). The verb form can mean a spatial departure or a spiritual departure depending on the context. Likewise, the noun form can mean a spiritual departure or a spatial departure depending on the context. Acts 21:21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. (a distancing from the Torah of Moses) 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing (apostasia) first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition. (no object in the verse to what is being departed from) There is nothing in this passage to say what is being departed from as in Acts 21:21. And whether it is the verb form (aphistemi) or the noun form (apostasia), the context determines what the word means, just like the English examples above. When the context is not mentioned in the verse the word is used, as in the verse above, then it must be determined from the surrounding verses. 2 Thessalonians 2:1 1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The context of the entire passage of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is the removal or departure.... the departure that also means the Holy Spirit who restrains is taken out of the way. Since the believers are indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit, for Him to be taken out of the way by extension means the redeemed who He indwells and seals are also taken out of the way. Thus the removal of the redeemed.

Read "1984" by George Orwell. One of the key aspects was how words would be twisted to mean something other than what they originally meant. "gay" is a good example. To make "dispensation" some sort of negative or pejorative is doing the same thing. I won't fall for the game, and I feel no compelling need to use a different word just because some might be offended in some way with the word "dispensation".

I guess the better question would be, why should one kowtow to the Orwellian mindset that has turned a legitimate word into a perjorative? The dictionary and traditional usage of dispensation is apropos.

You realize that your taking of a Strong's reference is but one man's interpretation of the word? How is it that Jerome, `1400 years earlier used "discessio" to translate apostasia? Did the man who grew up and was immersed in the Greek language know less than a man in the 1800's not culturally immersed in the Greek language? ne quis vos seducat ullo modo quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis And discessio has the connotation of a physical distancing as opposed to a spiritual distancing. And how is it that every English translation prior to the KJV also determined that apostasia means departure as did Jerome? The Wycliff Bible (1384), the Tyndale Bible (1526), the Coverdale Bible (1535), the Cranmer Bible (1539), the Beeches Bible (1576), the Geneva Bible (1577, 1599, 1608). As did Dr. Kenneth Wuest (1893 - 1961) who served as chair of New Testament Greek for several decades at Moody Bible Institute. As does Dr. Andy Woods, President of Chafer Theological Seminary. As does Dr. Ken Johnson, a recognized scholar specializing in ancient and early church documents. The root is apo, which has a meaning of distance. Even James Strong got that right. As to why he didn't maintain the standard, who knows. And there have been many "falling aways" of the last 2000 years. Ever read about the "dark / middle ages"? To make a "falling away" a unique marker that precedes the revealing of the man of sin is not justified. Paul uses the definite article in the passage to denote a singular, unique event that must precede the man of sin being revealed. And Paul ties it to the "our gathering unto the Lord" in the first verse. To state that Paul started the passage topic about our gathering to the Lord and then switches tense to our departing from the Lord to bolster his case violates even basic grade school grammar, especially since Paul is refuting a false letter that had been wrongfully distributed claiming to be from him. Hardly the style of one of the most learned individuals of his day who wrote the definitive outline of Christian systematic theology. But you are free to disagree. I would contend that a falling away is not in view. I am not convinced a "falling away" as many understand it will be a major characteristic of the end period. What we see going on is not a "falling away", but a total rejection of the Gospel by many, especially in the western world. I can see a "falling away" of those who have accepted a false gospel. I see no real evidence that a falling away from the true Gospel is what is happening or will happen. I see true believers every day holding fast to what they have placed their trust in, the Messiah. In fact, look at many areas where Christians are being persecuted.... China, Sudan, N. Korea, et al... and one sees a very vibrant group of believers that are holding fast under extreme pressure.. and growing exponentially. It is said that the Chinese believers will be the largest group of Christians in the next few years at the rate they are going. Even in Iran as we discuss this, people are starting to accept the Gospel in great numbers. A place where one will lose their head if caught. Now how could that be perceived as a "falling away"? I think many view such passages thru a western lens and see the decline of Christianity in the west as a "falling away". it is not a falling away but an outright rejection. One cannot fall away from something they have not accepted. The West is not departing from the faith, the West is declining to accept it.

Well, according to every English translation of the the passage prior to the KJV, as well as the Latin Vulgate..... 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition. In the Latin Vulgate, the word discessio is used, which simply means departure. Many well known Greek scholars have shown that apostasia in the Greek, by itself, only means a departure. Only when combined with what is being departed from the in the text is there cause to mean something else. Like is Acts 21:21 where the word is used and applied to mean departing from Torah, or Moses. Aphistemi is the verb form of the noun Apostasia, and in the 15 times it is used in the NT, 12 times it refers to a physical, spatial departure, not a spiritual departure. And in the same context a few verses later, 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (1599 Geneva Bible) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that wicked man be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightness of his coming, In the NKJV, same thing.... 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (NKJV) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. So the context is something is being removed or departed before the man of sin can be revealed. The context of the passage was laid out early on.... 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (NKJV) Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Evidently a forged letter claiming to be from Paul had scared these folks into thinking the day of the Lord was already upon them. Paul had to remind them that the departure would come first, then the man of sin would be revealed. When taken in total, Chapter 2 is easing their mind that they were not in the Day of the Lord since they were still here!

That would be correct except for the following... Romans 8:1 (NKJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. While individual chastisement by the Father is shown to be a part of the Christian experience when one gets out of line, there is no corporate chastisement by the Father shown in scripture that will befall the unique Body of Messiah that started in Acts 2, unlike corporate Israel had chastisement and punishment that fell on even those who were faithful. Both corporate Israel and gentiles have the promise of group focused chastisement from the Lord. Not the unique Body of Messiah. Tribulation is general is a part of the Christian experience to one degree or another. But the coming tribulation as a part of driving unbelieving Israel to the wall to get them to recognize their Messiah and accept Him is not. Again, it is a matter of ecclesiology more than eschatology along with an understanding of what the 70th week and GT period are all about and who is the primary focus. Even Paul delineates that there are 3 distinct groups now... Israel, Gentiles, and the Church. The 70th week of Daniel 9 pertaining to his people leaves only Israel and gentiles with Israel the primary focus since it will be incumbent on them to recognize their corporate rejection of Messiah and petition for His return as per the prophet Hosea. Being the seed of Abraham spiritually does not make us the seed of Abraham physically. Else all males that are Christian would be required to be circumcised which is a sign of the still in force unconditional Abrahamic Covenant (similarly, while there is no male or female in Messiah, there is a physical distinction that remains). Yet the Jerusalem Council, Peter, Paul all agree that circumcision was not required of gentiles coming to faith in the Messiah. Acts 15. And James also had Paul take an offering to the temple for the Nazarite Vow to prove that he did not teach Hebrews living in the diaspora to forsake the requirements of being a physical seed of Abraham. Acts 21 And the curses of Leviticus 26 were to national Israel as part of the Mosaic Covenant which was made with them. Paul, James, and Peter, yet again are very clear that gentiles coming to faith in Yeshua are not part of the Mosaic Covenant and uniquely specified that they are still under the requirements of the Noahide Covenant. Acts 15. So while gentile believers are grafted in the the tree fed by the root of the Patriarch's faith, they are not the tree. And Paul is very clear about that. Romans 11.

Disagree on first, agree on second. Dispensation as you might understand the concept may not be in scripture, but that doesn't negate that the idea is in scripture. Ephesians 1:10 (NKJV) that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. Ephesians 3:2 (NKJV) if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, The covenants given throughout the OT exhibit dispensation. The Adamic Covenant, the laws were very limited in scope and the revealing of God was minimal. the Noahide Covenant, more laws were brought in as requirements and there was more revealing of the nature of God. With the Abrahamic Covenant, even more reveling of the nature and plan of God was brought out. With the Davidic Covenant, yet again, more of the nature and plan of God was revealed. Each is a dispensation. Those are just examples and not a conclusive list by far. So dispensation is a scriptural concept. Even if someone refuses to believe it, which probably has more to do with misunderstanding the concept at best.

Except context is everything. Isaiah 26 starts out tying itself to Revelation 4. Both Hebrew and Greek words can mean both door and gate..... Isaiah 26:2 (NKJV) Open the gates, That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in. Revelation 4:1 (NKJV) After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." And Peter calls us a holy or righteous nation which ties into above, and even ties us into Revelation 5 by calling us a royal priesthood.... 1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; And the kings and priest redeemed from all the nations are present before the Lord opens the first seal.... Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." I showed in an earlier post how Isaiah 26:17 ties itself into Jeremiah 30:6-7 regarding the birth pains and Time of Jacob's Trouble, which Yeshua also references in Matthew 24. But getting to Isaiah 26:19-21, it ties into, Zephaniah 2, 1 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15.... Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain. Zephaniah 2:3 (NKJV) Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the Lord's anger. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NKJV) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (NKJV) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. And all that ties nicely into John 14... John 14:2-3 (NKJV Strong's) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. As a side note, a reasonable case can be made from 2 Thessalonians 2 that the timing of this removal is before the antichrist/son of perdition/man of sin is revealed. Pinning down the removal definitively before the 70th week starts and the seals are broken. And all the above follows the requirement of the Torah that a matter can only be established on the testimony of at least two witnesses. And the Bereans in Acts 17 showed us how that is to be applied..... Acts 17:11 (NKJV) These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Paul's teaching would make up a significant portion of the NT. All the Bereans had for a canon of scripture at that time was the OT. So the two witnesses are the OT and the NT. Not one of them alone even with multiple references from one. There has to be corroborated evidence from both OT and NT. And the above references I made pass that test.