OldCoot

Similar to what I stated before.. taken by itself, Revelation 12 might give that impression of Mid. It is all those passages in the OT that state Israel gives birth as soon as the labor pains start or even a little before that is the kicker for looking at this as pre. One passage in the OT I gave unequivocally states that these labor pains are the start of time of Jacob's Trouble, in Jeremiah, which has been rightly associated with the 70th week of Daniel or GT. Where in that same passage is says Israel will be saved out of it. Thereby supporting this is the time of the GT. The woman in Rev 12, described as she is, is a description of Israel from clear back in Genesis. And according to Isaiah, the birth happens as soon as Israel starts labor. And that same passage, Israel is giving birth to a nation. Peter was very clear when he said the church is a holy nation. The male child is the body of Christ, also what the church is called in many NT passages. Paul elaborates many times that the believers are all parts the body. And like the child is to rule with a rod of iron, Revelation 2:26-27 says that those who overcome will also rule beside Messiah with a rod of Iron. And that child is forcibly snatched up to the throne of God, similar to John in Chapter 4. That is the meaning of the Greek word harpazo which "caught up" is translated from in Rev 12:5. Yeshua was never "forcibly snatched up" at either his birth or at the ascension. Again, this has to mean the body of Messiah, the Church. And it happens when the birth pains (GT period) begin. Not in the middle or end of them. Just take a closer look at the various passages. The problem is, many do not really study OT eschatology, which is all the Bereans had when they were commended by Paul for searching the scriptures daily to see if what he taught them was true, Acts 17:10-11. And the Torah prescribes that a issue can only be confirmed on the testimony of two witnesses. We have those two... the OT and the NT. And The Revelation refers back to virtually every other book in the Bible except Ruth. Another problem is seeing The Revelation as only in sequential order. Like Messiah, it is multi dimensional. I assert that many passages are like overlays of a power point presentation or putting layers of overlay film on an overhead projector. Chapters 11-15 are parenthetical overlays that add clarity to the many events the previous chapters just like overlays on a powerpoint or overhead projector presentation.

That it grieves you may say more about your perspective than mine.

Well, if one only looks at The Revelation, the text might suggest what you state. When viewed in context of other scripture, especially the many passages in both OT and NT, then not so much. It would be really nice, for our limited human minds, to have these things lined up like a systematic theology text so there would be no doubt the details. But the Lord spread things out, precept upon precept, line upon line, for us to search out and learn more of Him in the process. Just like Revelation itself is not simply a chronology of events, but an overlay. Kinda like an overhead projector (showing my age since overhead projectors are not common) where one lays one film down to show one thing, then lays another film down on top of that to lend clarity to the first. And repeat the process until a complete picture comes into view. Maybe a PowerPoint analogy gets that idea across! For instance, Revelation 12. I see that not as just a piece of the Gr Trib, but an entire 7 year overlay from a different perspective. It has been generally held that the woman is Mary and the child the Messiah, which is true on a singular level, but on a corporate level it represents Israel and the Church, the body of Messiah. For one thing, the child is born and immediately and forcibly snatched up (harpazo) to the throne room of God before the Red Dragon (Satan) can devour it. It does say the child will rule with a rod of iron and implies the Messiah, but Rev 2:26-27 says that all who overcome will rule with a rod of iron with Him. Yeshua was never forcibly snatched up at His birth or His ascension. When one compares all of that to passages in the OT that show Israel "in labor" and giving birth before or immediately at the start of the Time of Jacob's trouble, Time of Great Tribulation, etc it paints a clearer picture. And what is Israel giving birth to? Those passages say both a male child and a nation. Passages like Isaiah 66:7-8, Jeremiah 30:5-7, Jeremiah 6:22-24, etc. The believers are the body of Messiah and also a Holy Nation per Peter 2:9. While individual believers it can be said we are "born again" or renewed, the Church as a collective is not. it was conceived at Pentacost by the seed of the Holy Spirit coming down and making a new creation, the Church. And where did that happen? In Israel. The Body of Messiah (church) has been developing and growing since, like a new child in the womb, and the time is at hand for it to be born. And when it is delivered, it is forcibly snatched up to the throne room of God per Revelation 12:5. Not a common perspective on these events, but certainly a viable alternative to commonly held perceptions on the events. And it supports a early removal of the righteous either before or at the start of the Great Tribulation period.

I can see how one could view it that way based on the wording arraignment of the text. But since it is the Lamb who is opening the seals to begin with, I have come to hold that they would only happen by His doing so and therefore He is the source behind these. More of an action than just an enlightening of events happening. Indeed, we should be able to share our differing views on these things without condemnation of each other. I am not so sure that one can associate Judge and Wrath interchangeably, even in the context you mention. One is a determination and one is an action. Given that the entire period is designed to drive Israel to the wall and recognize their Messiah (Hosea 5:15 - 6:1 and Matthew 23:39) and to persuade the rest of the peoples of the earth to turn to the One True God, I see even the events of the seals as being associated with punishment for unbelief. Kind of a "you want to go your own way, then fine, I will allow it and you can deal with the consequences". They just intensify more and more in severity as the period progresses. To the point where God is becoming so disgusted with these people that events are intensified. Those that take the mark later, become finally judged in doing so. They cannot be redeemed because they took the mark, so are destined for destruction. It is a bad time, no matter how one views it. And the complexity makes it so that all of us probably have certain aspects to it wrong. We each see these events in limitation of our human frailty and the amount of clarification we are given. No matter how this plays out, I must keep my trust in the one true God that He is faithful and remembers His promises to those He loves. I will be disappointed if a removal does not occur before these events, but that will only mean I had certain aspects wrong, not that God is unfaithful. I still keep hope that there is a removal before these events, not for my sake alone, but for all the brothers and sisters.

I would contend that the wrath starts right out of the gate at the 1st seal. The Father hands off the scroll to Yeshua. He then opens the seals. Simple logic would say that if He hadn't opened the seals, then the events of each seal would not occur. Therefore, the events directly related to Yeshua's actions, and would imply that it is part of the wrath of God. Judgement and wrath do not require an affirmative action by God. It can come from God removing His restraint and allowing events to transpire. If the earlier translators got it right about departure as opposed to falling away, that is true, then the departure must occur before the man of sin can be revealed. That departure would imply the removal of the righteous. And V6 would affirm that. Adding to the passage by stating it is a departure from God is taking liberties with the text to support a presupposition. (be careful how you sling around the name Pharisee) The only way the word can be used in that context is if there was a definite article stating what was being departed from. Like in Acts 21:21, where apostosia is used and the definite article, Moses (the Law), is mentioned. In that instance it would be correct to say "departing from Moses (the Law). But the passage in 2 Thes 2:3 does not express what is being departed from. Kenneth Wuest and many other Greek scholars have explained this quite well, much better than I have here. With verse 6 saying that the one who restrains (Holy Spirit who indwells the believers) is taken out of the way after He has handed off the Church to the Messiah, similar to a linebacker stepping aside and allowing the opposition into the backfield in a football game, the 1st seal explicitly shows this man of sin coming forth with a covenant in hand. The first mention of "bow" in scripture, back in Genesis, was when the Lord set a Bow in the air to symbolize He would never destroy the earth by water again. A covenant God made. The law of first mention, a hermeneutical principle, applies. Likewise, the Bow the rider has in the 1st seal is a covenant. This affirms Daniel 9:27 And Isaiah 26 and Zephaniah 2 explicitly state that the righteous are hidden from that day of wrath. Which going back to what I stated in the first paragraph, is the seals being opened.

Prove is a relative term. It all depends on the standard. Most things biblical, they may not be provable by scientific standards, but they are provable by legal standards. For example, no one can "prove" who Yeshua was or what He did while here from a literal standpoint, but from a legal standpoint, we have numerous eye witnesses that provide more than ample confirmation of Yeshua. And that the stories do not match up precisely word for word makes them even more credible. The only "proof" of a future event will be the event happening. Until then, every position on these matters is theory with supportive textual evidence. And none of them are free from individual bias, even unintentional bias.

May I pick on this one a little bit? Yeshua was following the Law precisely in this event. The Law required the testimony of two witnesses regarding a capital offense, which adultery was one. When the others left after the confrontation with Yeshua regarding who should cast the first stone, that left only Yeshua and the woman. Yeshua probably knew full well she was guilty, but He was only one witness. It takes two witnesses to condemn according to the Law. So He did the proper thing, He told her that He did not condemn her and to go and sin no more. As for what Yeshua wrote in the dirt, I am convinced it was the names of her accusers.... Jeremiah 17:13 (NKJV) O Lord, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You shall be ashamed. “Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth, Because they have forsaken the Lord, The fountain of living waters.” And the following verse would seem to refer to the woman involved... Jeremiah 17:14 (NKJV) Heal me, O Lord, and I shall be healed; Save me, and I shall be saved, For You are my praise. and in case someone might think I took these passages out of context, the passage in John that mentions this event was during the Feast of Sukkot (tabernacles). The last day of the feast, the Chief Priest would draw water from the pool of Siloam and pour it on the alter. It was a ceremony of "living water". While this was going on..... John 7:37-38 (NKJV) On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

While indeed we face and suffer tribulation and trials now, that is substantially different than what the 70th week of Daniel / Time of Jacob's Trouble / Great Tribulation is all about. You are indeed correct when you quote that no student is above his master. And that does indeed apply to us. And it is equally true what you say that present tribulations and trials are directed by evil. The judgements that come upon the earth from the 1st seal on, all happen because of God. And evil is allowed to flourish, but it is only at the discretion of God Himself to fulfill His purpose... to drive Israel to the wall and recognize their Messiah (Hosea 5:15) and to seal up the fate of everyone else. They effectively kill off 5/6ths of the worlds population before they are done. And not a single one of them, either by evil or by nature, could happen had it not been allowed by God. And therefore it begs the question as to why God would impose these things on his people he has declared righteous? None of these things occur unless seals are open, trumpets are blown, and bowls poured out. Therefore, they are all at the direction of God Himself. The prophetical portions of Luke were done in two locations, the temple area and the mt. of olives (Luke 21:37). And likewise, they discuss two different things. The destruction to come upon Jerusalem in 70 AD and the events that lead up to the return of Messiah. V24 closes this description by saying that Jerusalem will be trampled down under the gentiles until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. From v25 on is discussing end times signs and It is in this latter context that Luke 21:32 says that this generation (basic grammatical structure implies the generation that sees these end signs) will not pass till all be fulfilled. And it is also the context in which Luke 21:36 is located regarding escaping these things. Basic grammatical structure of the text thereby implies that those worthy will escape those things that will be coming upon the earth during this end time scenario. This matches with Isaiah 26:19-21 and Zephaniah 2:1-3.

Not sure the analogy of Jacob and Rachel works. While both Israel and the Believers are "called out" and set aside, they are not quite in the same classification. Israel is holy (consecrated and set apart) because of the promise to Abraham about his descendants. But that doesn't have anything to do with their individual salvation. The church is holy but it is only comprised of justified individuals who are consecrated and set apart, unlike Israel, where being born into it makes you one, being in the church is a decision based on faith and trust. The point was well made... if the church goes thru the tribulation period, then why would there be a need for the sheep and goat judgement? Also, if the church goes thru the tribulation and then is raptured at the end, only leaving unbelievers, then who is going in to the millennial kingdom to repopulate it? That is the purpose of the sheep and goat judgement. Those that survive this massive calamity called the Time of Jacobs Trouble / Day of the Lord / Tribulation period, etc and came to faith (minus the church) are the sheep who continue on into the millennial kingdom to repopulate it, and those that had the mark, those that did not place their trust in Yeshua, etc are the goats who are separated and cast away. I will add, having the church go thru the tribulation is akin to this idea.... "Hey dear, I will betroth you as my bride, then I will beat the snot out of you for 7 years, and then we will go have dinner. Comfort one another with these words.". It may be a little irreverent, but it gets right to the point of the matter. The idea that the church goes thru the tribulation does not line up with many passages. Yeshua's comments in Luke 21:36 for instance. The idea actually smacks of paganism, in that a person has to prove themselves and suffer for the privilege of reaching the higher goal. Totally contrary to salvation a free gift, and it seems as an insult to God that Yeshua's death wasn't sufficient to justify. We all probably have many aspects to these things wrong to one degree or another. Not surprising. We didn't inspire the text and we are fallen creatures looking at these things with mortal eyes and praying that the HS will enlighten us. No one has a total lock on these things. Anyone who thinks they do either is delusional or a liar.

Yeah, the two Messiah idea that many Jews developed trying to reconcile the passages. Messiah ben Joseph (the suffering servant) and Messiah ben David (the conquering king). I am convinced this is why John the Baptist sent his disciples to Yeshua to ask "are you the one or are we to expect another". Many think JB's faith was wavering, but I think it was more of this dual Messiah concept that was messing with him.

I can deal with in depth studies in the right setting. But piling on half the NT along with commentaries and turning a post on a forum thread into a college dissertation, that I have a problem with. There is no way for one to effectively debate the issue since it heads in a myriad of directions with each needing addressed without getting into the same rut. Not sure why folks can't start off a discussion in the forum thread with just a few points and then develop that further as the thread debate progresses. It would draw in more people and be easier for those who want to learn an follow the topic do so. GusWilby was right about the shear volume.

I really don't chide anyone over mid-trib, pre-wrath, etc, as many scholars and teachers who espouse such positions are honorable folks that truly love the Lord, but I have pretty much held to a pre-trib position. Some would assert that the wrath does not occur till the 7th trumpet, bowl judgements, etc. Somewhere after the seals. I see the entire thing playing out right from the 1st seal. The Father gives the scroll to Yeshua, the lamb, to open. When each seal is opened, a particular set of events occur on earth. My assertion has always been from a logical standpoint, that if Yeshua hadn't opened those seals, then those events would not occur. Since they are directly related to His opening them, they are in essence directed or allowed by Him and thus equated with judgements. Judgements do not necessarily mean an affirmative action on the part of God. They can be allowances of natural or evil event(s). Even some of the trumpet and bowl events clearly involve natural or evil events also. When one compares 2 Thessalonians 2:3 with Revelation 6:1-2, regarding the wrath or judgement of God, seems to support that assumption about beginning at the first seal. And those seals being opened is a direct result of Messiah Himself opening them. The trumpets and bowls involve angelic action. Consequently, it seems strange that the righteous would have to endure the events that transpire from those seals being opened as opposed to being removed before those events would occur. It would cause one to wonder, why would Yeshua, by opening the seals, want to expose the righteous to that in light of Mark 21:36?

I don't think the church is necessarily the hindrance either, and neither are the tribulation saints, but the HS who's job it is to teach and grow the church. Then the church is "handed off" to the Messiah, but the HS is not removed but just "taken out of the way" like a road block just moved to the side so that the traffic can now move thru. The HS will still be doing a lot of work during the tribulation period but will not be restraining evil in the same way that He has up till that time. No one can come to faith without the HS drawing them. So the HS is going to still be around.

I never said that those in the body of Christ are not saints. But saints in the church are not the only saints. Deuteronomy, Job, 1 Samuel, 2 Chronicles, and dozens of passages in Psalms all mention the saints of the most high, and none of those are eschatological passages. Saints are qadosh or holy ones. Believers in the church are likewise called holy. But the holy ones in the OT were not in the church. Doesn't make them less or more holy. God is the one who makes people holy. Same with those in the church. They are no less holy or more so. The church is just a different entity that came about at Shavuot/Pentacost and will be removed. I don't believe in a hierarchy of saints. Just separate but equal categories. Abraham was declared righteous but he never was in the Church. And we are told in various passages in the NT that we must have the faith of Abraham to be saved. The same faith is what is required for God to declare us justified. Not what category we are in. The church doesn't save anyone. A faith like Abraham's does. Likewise, if the church is removed Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, or Pre-wrath, any that come to faith in God after that will still be saints. Just in that case, they will not be OT saints, or church saints. They would be the tribulation saints. But it is the same faith that is required by God who declares them holy. And what of those who come to faith in the Millennial kingdom? Would it not also be on the basis of having the same faith? And Yeshua is the sacrifice for them all. Remember, the first mention of a redeemer was clear back in the garden of Eden after Adam and Eve sinned. Yeshua wasn't an after thought or a different direction God took. Yeshua was the solution to the problem of mankind's sin all along. So simple. I guess that might be why it is so hard for some to grasp. We are all fallen creatures and just seem compelled to complicate things.

Except "saints" does not mean "church" all the time in scripture. There are several references to saints in the OT (not only in Daniel) which was before the church. The church being removed does not negate that some will still come to faith during the tribulation period. The 144,000 immediately comes to mind.

I have generally viewed the HS job as that of the servant who was commanded to seek out a wife for Isaac in Genesis 24. The HS job is to seek out, teach, prepare, and deliver a group of called out believers to Yeshua as a chaste, virgin, like the servant of Abraham whose job it was to seek out, teach, and deliver Isaac's bride to him. The HS job is to protect that called out group, the church, until that is accomplished. Once that job is finished, like the servant of Abraham who is no longer the focus of the story and not mentioned again, the HS steps out of the way. It is akin to a guard or tackle that protects the quarterback in American football. The HS steps out of the way and allows the false messiah / man of sin to be revealed and evil to advance. The HS is not removed, as it is only the revealing work of the HS that can cause one to come to faith in Messiah, and there will be more who believe during the time of trouble that is coming upon the earth. So the conclusion I have generally held is the entity that is removed or taken out of the way is the Church. Delivered to the Messiah by the HS.

Just a request that we take some time away from our debating and discussion to keep in mind those that have suffered during the current weather and earthquake events in N. America, and the Caribbean. Spend a few moments before the Lord for these folks. Keep them in your prayers. Let's look outward. For those that have been spared these things, give thanks to the Lord for your safety.

And things get even more bizarre. The Hurricane Harvey event, one first responder was infected by a flesh eating virus and ended up in intensive care at Houston Methodist hospital. Sepsis had already started setting in one day after he was infected. http://www.foxnews.com/health/2017/09/08/harvey-first-responder-contracts-flesh-eating-bacteria-infection.html On top of what I posted previously, then we got the Mexico earthquake. Discounting Central America and Alaska, the largest quake in N. America since the New Madrid earthquake of 1812. Signs, Signs, everywhere the signs.

That is the intent by some posters elsewhere. It is a classic military strategy... overwhelm the opposition all at one time to break down any opposition. One has so many arguments to address that they cannot make an effective counter argument. That leads to other massively lengthy counter posts and drives many to just move on to other topics. Nothing gets resolved. I still hold to a pre-trib position, but generally don't waste much time in trying to defend it. As you see too many contradictions to the position, I see too many contradictions to the others. We each see different aspects and nuances in scripture and bring a difference perspective. More than likely, the truth is not what any of us really expect. But I have changed some of my previous positions. I used to hold to the immanency of the rapture position, that it could happen at any time, but changed some time ago to a Feast day occurrence, specifically that of Yom Teruah / Feast of Trumpets. And yes, that was long before the Revelation 12 sign discussions that are going on currently. Probably about 30 years ago I started moving into a Feast event type of idea. Either way, what disappoints me is the vitriol and arrogance that gets spooned up by some in arguing these positions. None of us has an exclusive and is the mouthpiece of God. I am more than confident that all of us will have egg on our face in the final analysis, like Job, with all being wrong to one degree or another. I don't see it here, yet, but many times these discussion degrade to people calling each other heretical, unscriptural, and whatever terms designed to shut down fruitful discussion. Like in the current political climate where charges of Racism or Homophobia are used to shut down contrary views.

I think we can agree on that!

And we get yet another sign.... We got the U.S. solar eclipse just before the start of Elul 1 on the Hebrew calendar, which is the start of the season of Teshuvah or season of repentance and return. Rosh Hashanah is the 1st of Tishri, the following month. Now, smack dead in the middle of Elul, on the 15th of Elul (September 6th), we get two X class solar flares that disrupted some navigation and communications. https://www.space.com/38057-sun-unleashes-decades-strongest-solar-flare.html And the U.S got hit with one major hurricane between the 1st and 15th of Elul, and is getting ready to get hit with another between the 15th and 30th of Elul. The pile up of signs that have come at us for the last few years can't be coincidence: 4 Blood moons, 2 years, all occurring on Passover and Feast of Tabernacles of both 2014 and 2015. Star of Bethlehem event, June 30th 2015, which was the middle point between Passover and Tabernacles of that year. Two years ago. The wise men who brought gifts to Yeshua had seen the star two years previous to their arrival. That is why Herod had all boys in Bethlehem, 2 years and younger, slaughtered. 2017, 120 years after the first Zionist Congress meeting (1897) to establish a homeland for the Jews. In Noah's day, God gave 120 years before sending the flood. Yeshua said that as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the time of the coming of the Son. 2017, 100 years after the Balfour Declaration (1917) allowing Jews to immigrate to the land of Israel. 2017, 70 years after the UN 181 partitions the land for Israel (1947). 1948 Israel officially declared a independent nation fulfilling Ezekiel and Leviticus. They had not been an independent nation since roughly 607 BC. 2017, 50 years after Israel recaptures all of Jerusalem (1967) 2017, a Jubilee year... last two... 1917 and 1967. See above. 2017, the September 23rd event of the Revelation 12 sign which has not happened since at least 3950 BC to some who have studied it, and some say never before. And this falls at the end of Rosh Hashanah / Feast of Trumpets. One can blow these things off as coincidence, but I don't believe in coincidences. What you do with all that is between you and God. Something is bound to happen soon. Since it is the season of Teshuvah (repentance and return), it might be wise to make sure one's self is in solid relationship with the Lord. Just beware that one doesn't fall into this camp.... 2 Peter 3:3-4 (NKJV) knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” Jude 1:17-19 (NKJV) But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 (NKJV) But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman (Revelation 12 sign of September 23rd?). And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. And the slogan for the UN International Peace Day this year? "Peace and Safety". And that day falls on the start of Rosh Hashanah / Feast of Trumpets, Sept 21st. Still think it is just coincidence?

Many of the Jews did know who Yeshua was. All the Apostles were Jewish. John the Baptist was Jewish. At least 500 Jewish believers fellowshipped with Him between His resurrection and ascension. 8000 came to faith almost immediately at and after Shavuot (Pentacost). Thousands more as time went on. All the writers of the NT were Jewish, with the possible exception of Luke, who followed Paul around. Wiki is not the only place regarding these things. Many scholars also concur that Jude was referencing the book of Enoch when he wrote his letter. No, it was the Jewish leadership that rejected Messiah. They were interested in keeping their earthly, temporal power deal they had with Rome.

It isn't so much the September 23rd sign alone that is significant, it is how it fits into other phenomenon. The Blood Moon Tetrad has been mentioned. 4 Blood Moons that occurred on the feast days of Passover and Tabernacles two consecutive years, 2014-2015. To occur that way is fairly rare. 3 times this has happened in 1000 years. The Bethlehem Star event in 2015 right between the 2015 pair of the lunar eclipses (blood moons) of 2015. The wise men who visited the child Yeshua had seen the star 2 years prior. The 2015 event was 2 years ago. It is a close conjunction of Regulus, the king star in constellation Leo, and Jupter, the king star of the solar system. Hasn't happened since roughly 3-2 BC. Also, this Sept 23rd event occurs at the close of Rosh Hashanah, or the Feast of Trumpets. And the American solar eclipse happened just before the start of Teshuvah, or season of repentance starting on Elul 1 of the Hebrew calendar which is the 33 days before Rosh Hashanah and 40 days before Yom Kippur. Rosh Hashanah has traditional Hebrew views of the righteous are sealed and separated before the "days of awe" which are the 7 days between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur (day of Atonement). Rosh Hashanah (feast of Trumpets) is also known as Yom Teruah (the awakening blast which speaks of resurrection) is called "the day that no man knows" because it falls on the 1st of the month of Tishri and the month start cannot be established till two certified witnesses confirm the new moon. Also, the "last trump" is blown at the end of the feast when "the twinkling of an eye", or last sliver of sun is seen as it sets on the 2nd day of the feast. Then you combine these aspects of 2017... 120 years after the first Zionist Congress to establish a homeland for Jews. 1897. People were given 120 years prior to the flood in Noah's day. 100 years after the Balfour declaration that Great Britain opened immigration to the land of Israel for Jewish people. 70 years after UN 181 that partitioned modern Israel. 50 years since Israel recaptured all of Jerusalem in 1967, making 2017 a Jubilee year. There are many other converging signs that cause many people to believe that this September 23rd event has major significance. We'll have to see.

You are assuming the text says these things will happen the same day. It doesn't say that. It just says the moon will be turned to blood and the sun black as sack clothe BEFORE the day of the Lord. And the "day of the Lord" is not one literal 24 hr period either.

That's fine. It doesn't shake my view on these things. And I agree that no part is cancelled out of context. It is purely presumption from a western mindset that assumes that Yeshua was not alluding to the Feast of Trumpets himself. Pity that the church forgot most of it's Hebrew roots. And in none of what I stated, was there ever a mention of a particular time of these occurrences. True, a particular feast day, but not the year. And God has thus far been a stickler for Messianic events falling precisely on feast days established in Leviticus 23. And Rosh Hashanah is the next one on the hit parade. But then, there were people in Yeshua's time that thought some were kooks for seeing Yeshua being a fulfillment to the day as outlined by Daniel 9. And that the fulfillment of His death would be at Passover (death), Feast of Unleavened Bread (burial), and Feast of First Fruits (resurrection). And then the church was conceived at Pentacost or Feast of Weeks. Yeshua held those folks accountable for NOT knowing the time. Luke 19:43-44 (NKJV) For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.” That is a lesson for the rest of us, as this is a warning..... 2 Peter 3:3-4 (NKJV) knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” I really only fit those prophecy teacher types with books and DVD's to sell that dispute these things as the ones who fall into the "walking according to their own lusts". But each should look at their life as to why they wouldn't take the time and be like the Bereans and search if these things be true. Proverbs 18:13 (NKJV) He who answers a matter before he hears it, It is folly and shame to him.