Heleadethme

And can't help but notice too how Dispensational sensational teaching has turned the Father's house into a house of merchandise like nothing else ever has. I truly hope more people will become willing to re-examine it all.

Yes, I thought along the same lines at first, but then realized the issue of being extra-biblical is not really relevant when you're only looking to confirm certain facts of history, and not looking for spiritual truth. Assume most ancient writers of history were pagans, and who knows what their lives were like....that's just not relevant either to the purpose of merely establishing historical facts. (If I'm not mistaken there are other biblical prophecies about which we can only know they were fulfilled by looking at history, eg, Daniel's prophecy about the Greek empire being parceled into four. The bible doesn't mention it later on as far as I know. Likewise the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD....such an important and pivotal event that was prophesied in both OT as well as by Jesus, yet the bible doesn't mention it's fulfillment, so we only know of it's fulfillment by looking at historical accounts.)

Think you're onto something there brother. I don't understand everything to do with this subject by any means, but do get a sense that we don't need to think in terms of either/or with everything that has been prophesied. Some of it might be to the Jew first, then the Gentile. Like there are woofs and waffles in the same tapestry. Jesus did come speaking to the Jew first, and I've found that useful to keep in mind.

I consider the OP to be calling attention to the general state of disrepair the church is in, which necessarily has to affect it's doctrines and vice versa. The Pharisees were not following a pure form of scriptural Judaism but one that had become full of Babylonish mixture and commandments of men. Jesus would not have anyone rebel against leadership and authorities, no, but preach the truth YES.

People sure seem to set the bar very low in the church these days. I find it sad and demoralizing. Didn't Jesus say in order just to be His disciple we must deny ourselves? Not to mention Paul's instructions for elders in the church: 1Ti 3:1-13 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, skillful in teaching, not overindulging in wine, not a bully, but gentle, not contentious, free from the love of money. He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into condemnation incurred by the devil. And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into disgrace and the snare of the devil. Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not insincere, not prone to drink much wine, not greedy for money, but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. These men must also first be tested; then have them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach. Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. Deacons must be husbands of one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

I've heard many testimonies of young people coming to faith in Christ and then quickly being drawn back into the world and sin, but afterwards returning to the Lord. I think the young in the faith may be especially vulnerable, still being untaught in the word and not established in the faith, and not having received the Holy Spirit yet. Baptism might be a factor as well......it's important to be baptized as soon as possible after receiving the Lord....it is a prophetic act depicting one's 'death and resurrection' which "seals" our salvation...a spiritual weapon for our walk in this life. If someone is not baptized they may be more prone to falling away or falling into sin....it seems to be something I've observed with some.

I wonder sometimes whether we are looking for black and white answers where there isn't one given to us. Ultimately God is the only wise judge to judge any individual soul...He is the only one who knows and justly weighs all the circumstances of each heart and life...and He is the one who is going to judge us all. Knowing that helps us to do our best for Him. If someone has turned away from Christ, and sincerely want to come back to him, I believe they will try to show the Lord how seriously sorry they are and bring forth fruits meet for repentance. Begin to walk after Him and earnestly seek Him. One can never be wrong to do that, and the bible says a humble and contrite heart He will not turn away.

Agree with you. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He is not the God of the dead but of the living. And remember Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus on the mount. Also I think there is that we need to remember God exists outside of time and is trying to communicate heavenly things to we who live within the bonds of time. Like the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world, and yet we know it didn't happen in time until the first century. John wrote of Jesus saying NOW is the judgment of this world, but we are still waiting for the day of judgment when the world will be judged at a future period of time, when Jesus steps back into time briefly. (As I understand this at the moment, might need tweeking.)

Yes, we just need to be willing. Aye, there's the rub, often. Lot's of things can be in the way of our willingness. David prayed for a willing spirit. But faith cometh by hearing, so hearing others speak the truth on an issue can be a catalyst to help us seek that willing spirit, and ask the Lord to tweek whatever we need tweeking on, as I find in my own life.

Yes, there are problems aplenty in the churches at large. All due to the flesh ultimately, which hardly anybody will search themselves or ask God to "search me and know me" and confront the flesh nature in ourselves. And all flesh is the same. We need to have our minds renewed in the word to see how God wants things done as opposed to how it is being done in the churches. He doesn't want us doing church the world's way (way of flesh). The fruit of that is not good and the church doesn't get built up that way. I know most of us can't imagine doing things any differently, we've all been influenced by the status quo and never seen anything else, but scripture can light our way, when we are willing to let God renew our minds on the matter. And as always, His word is for whoever has ears to hear.

Maybe we could say that it has to do with the fact that the Lord is not just dealing with us humans, but also the god of this world who blinds humans. It's a spiritual battle that goes beyond proving things to the carnal minds of people. Also God is Spirit, and spirit and flesh mix together about as well as chalk and cheese.....men love the darkness and refuse to come into the light because their deeds that proceed from the flesh nature are evil. People are unwilling to change and humbly acknowledge and give up their sins and wrongdoings. There is a price to pay in following and obeying God/Jesus.

Amen. Decently and in order with the overseers overseeing and facilitating...everyone taking turns as the bible instructs.

The way things are run in churches, with formalized church services, only one person is exercising their gift (Pastor). No one else is growing in their gifting because they first of all often aren't often even taught that all Spirit filled believers have been given a spiritual gift, or helped to learn what they have been given, and secondly they are not given the opportunity to exercise their gifts in such settings and growing thereby...exercising their spiritual senses. It doesn't even have to be overtly oppressive, but just a way of doing "church" that nobody questions and that is not according to scripture and the simplicity of Christ. Instead of being active participants who "together" are building up the body of Christ, the people are just passive on-lookers. Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. The whole body is supposed to edify itself, not just be edified by one person. 1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Psa 127:1 Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. In Revelation we see the true Bride/Heavenly Zion as opposed to a false corrupt counterfeit (Babylon, mother of harlots...spiritual harlotry). "Lord, Lord, didn't we do thus and such for you? Away from me you who work lawlessness. Only who does the will of my Father will enter the kingdom of heaven." Mystery Babylon....mystery of lawlessness. But the true church is built by Him and kept by Him and led by His Spirit, Christ as it's Head. Counterfeits are built by man and follow man-made versions in His Name, doing their own will in His Name, deceived by the devil, led by ear tickling false teachers, false prophets and even can produce false miracles to deceive. 2Co 11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. Act 20:28-30 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. I'm not pointing out things in the word of God to condemn anyone but only in hopes that it will enlighten anyone reading as needed and help get us back to.....the simplicity of Christ.

I guess I would say it's my little part in encouraging some soul searching and comparing what we're doing to the examples and instructions in scripture. A call to wake up and re-examine that. A call to change from the inside out, otherwise it would just be more man-made artifice instead of the life of the Holy Spirit. Man can only imitate life.....only God can give life. Speak the truth, point people to the truth, be built up and encouraged in the truth and let God work on our hearts through that by His Spirit.

Well, can't help but wonder whether Paul was wrong the many times he called out the churches on different things and told them to pull up their socks? Was he being an accuser or was he obeying the Lord who says to provoke one another unto GOOD works and to preach the word, rebuke, reprove etc with all longsuffering? Most of the western church today has wandered off the narrow path...that's not an accusation or condemnation but an observation. I don't think it would be helpful at all to ignore the problem and pretend it isn't happening. There are plenty of well respected preachers of the past who also saw and spoke about the problems they saw in the church of their day. And God can give discernment even to "nobody's".

Well I'll do my best to answer. As we know God gives spiritual gifts as He pleases....some gifts are 'greater' or 'better' than others. For example where it says the one who prophecies is greater than one who speaks in tongues. It doesn't mean the individual souls are any more or less valid or loved by Him. Jesus also spoke of the greatest and least in the kingdom. A few places in scripture where the idea of 'greater or lesser' is spoken of or implied. Haven't really thought it through but probably greater gifts carry more authority I would think and have more impact. I agree that the greater the gifting the greater the responsiblity and influence.....since the word says be not many teachers because they will be judged more strictly. But we're not to be 'respecters of persons' and all are to prefer others over themselves...the scripture says even who we might think of as the most 'feeble' among us are necessary in the Body. In God's economy the last will be first and the first will be last. From what I understand it's not about what measure of grace we start out with, it's about how we walk, whether we are obedient to Him, and how we go about exercising our gifts, etc. Someone can have great gifts but be corrupt in how they live or function in the church. Gifts in themselves are not a stamp of God's approval or esteem towards the individual. (Thinking of where Jesus spoke of those who would say," Lord, Lord, did we not do thus and such for you." Doesn't seem He measures us by our gifts in themselves, even though the gifts may be greater or lesser.)

Things go awry when man takes things into his own hands. That's why I wouldn't advocate for "reforming" the church, only that we each individually start "being" the church, in the simplicity of Christ. Look at His example when He walked the earth....since we are of His Body. There are greater and lesser gifts, yes. But there is to be no schism in the Body between them. Everyone whether greater or lesser just do their part according as the Lord leads by His Spirit at the Head of His Body, in the simplicity of Christ.....letting the left hand not know what the right hand is doing. 1Co 12:14-25 For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

Sorry I missed your point. I agree. It might be that those who "by now ought to be teachers" - since that seems to be addressed to a whole group in general - was not necessarily addressing only those with teaching gifts, but maybe just in the sense of being mature enough to have edifying things to share with others. Everyone has been gifted with something and as we grow and mature we can be more edifying in sharing or "teaching" what the Lord gives us, just in simplicity and not necessarily in any office. 1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 1Co 12:6-7 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. I have a vision of "church" that is not mainstream. People often don't grow in churches because they are not allowed to by those who would lord it over them. Hope this isn't wandering too far off your point.

One point I'd like to make is that not everyone who matures is gifted by God to be a "leader" in the church. Regardless of one's giftings, we are all called to grow up and mature. Spiritual maturity is not the exclusive purview of "leaders". Similarly we must not assume that just because someone has leadership gifts that they are spiritually mature. Anyone with eyes to see can see the condition of the evangelical church at large today. I asked the Lord why it is that what we call "churches" in general always seem to bring the life of God to death (that has been both my observation and experience)....His answer came in a word...."artificial", ie, man-made. We've departed from the simplicity of Christ and placed men in charge where our invisible Head should be (craving flesh and blood kings like the pagans have....ie, King Sauls) Paul rightly said that when he departs, grievous wolves would come in, not sparing the flock. I guess that really has been the situation with the church ever since....but I believe God uses it to prune His vineyard. Scary to tell new believers they need to find a "local church" to be part of...it might be better that they seek the Lord and learn to hear His voice and get to know scripture well before starting to be influenced by the teachings of others. That way they would be better situated to test what is being taught. I don't know what the Lord will do, whether this is the beginning of the end, as in "the falling away", or whether He will revive the church, but I pray often for the latter. Something to think about brother....when Israel of old (the church's ensample) had prospered and forgotten God, becoming "at ease in Zion" and falling into worldliness and even paganism, were those who took note of it and tried to call her back to the Lord immature?

That's an encouraging word. We need to walk in the authority that Christ has given to His Body. Signs follow the preaching of the gospel and Jesus came to destroy the works of the enemy. All authority on heaven and earth has been given to Him and He delegates that to us.

God can and does use the various members of His Body to teach, preach, counsel, etc....but we are not to rely on the arm of flesh. Our reliance needs to be on God and then He can speak to us, teach us etc through any means He wants. Even when it is another person speaking, it is really HIS voice we are listening for...having ears to hear what the Spirit is saying. I wonder why most believers are not mature enough to hear from God? In my observation churches are not very good at maturing the flock. The priests bear rule by their means and the people love to have it so. There are unfortunate realities of human nature that exist in the church....and really I think that is what many of the warnings and admonitions are about. Certain people love to have the pre-eminence and so they don't work themselves out of their job so to speak...and other people love to have it so. Ergo....come out of her my people. If we are to grow up we really need to 'leave home' at some point, so to speak, at the leading of the Lord when one is ready.

That's the thing sister...nobody can be trusted. Anyone and everyone can be and often are, subject to error and mistakes because we're all human, as well as being at difference places in our walk. Our trust and reliance needs to be in the Lord alone. That's why it says to test everything...test all things. Of course the Lord can and does speak to us and teach us through others, but the tendency of our flesh is to start slacking off in our own alertness and diligence and just let someone else do all the heavy lifting just because they have been right about some things and we learned from them at some point. I think of it like growing up as children. When we're very young it doesn't enter into our mind that our parents could be wrong about anything. But as we grow and mature, we start to realize that they have faults and can be mistaken about things. And then as 'adults' we should be able to start carrying our own load as well as helping our parents.

Praise the Lord, He is so good!

I think there is the factor of the Lord working in our lives/hearts through the trials and breakings as well....making our hearts ready for more of Him. That takes time, so really it is not wasted time. Truth is something we pay a price for in a way as we follow Jesus. The bible says "Buy the truth but sell it not."