Steve Conley

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, BG, the falling away (2Thes 2:3), that Paul says must come before the day of Christ is near in time, is the departure from the faith that Jesus said would take place prior to His coming. Jesus said, "then shall many be offended" (Matt 24:10). Like those who received the seed into the stony ground (Matt 13:20-21), when they shall experience unprecedented persecution for His "name's sake" they will fall away. He also said that many would be deceived by the false prophets who will show great signs and wonders (Matt 24:11, 24). The falling away is the notable departure from the faith of many if not most of those who "call themselves Christians." Any apostasy that has been witnessed over the past 2000 years is insignificant as an identifiable sign that Christ's return for us is at hand. The falling away is future. It will take place after the abomination of desolation when the world worships the Beast. Glory be to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, WilliamL, the need for dual testimony is not necessary when it comes to the Holy Scriptures which were divinely given. All of the Holy Writ can be trusted, unlike individuals who would prophesy. You fail to take the context of the statements you quoted from the Scriptures into consideration. 2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2Co 13:2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare: 2Co 13:3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you. Paul is saying that they ought to believe him because he has now communicated this warning three times to them. You misapply Christ's words when you try to teach that a prophetic statement taken from the Scriptures cannot be true unless it is mentioned at least twice. Joh 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Jesus refers to two statements of the Law found in Deuteronomy. Deu 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. Both of these teach the requirement of two or more witnesses to establish a matter before the law. Jesus is just explaining that the record that He had given of Himself along with the testimony of the Father concerning Him met the threshold of testimony necessary to establish a legal matter. It should be believed. Concerning Dan 9:27 there is ample information within the verse to indicate that it is referring to the defiling of the rebuilt temple by the man of sin in the middle of the week causing the sacrifice and offering to cease. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Glory be unto Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, WilliamL, it is Jesus who ties the future unprecedented persecution of the elect to the middle of the seventieth week that Daniel wrote about. Christ links the beginning of the great tribulation to the defiling of the temple by the man of sin that Daniel recorded in Dan 9:27. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. This single statement of Jesus by itself is all that is needed. The two witnesses for prophecy idea that you and a couple others continually promote is not taught in the Scriptures. Two or more witnesses were required for criminal proceedings, but a single statement of the Lord, an Apostle, or true Prophet is sufficient. There are many instances of there only being one statement concerning an event or an aspect of an event in the Holy Scriptures. A single explicit statement is all that is necessary. You may contend that Dan 9:27 is mistranslated, but I don't believe that is the case. You may also contend that Jesus was not referring to Dan 9:27, but I will disagree with you there also. Four times in Daniel a defiling abomination is mentioned. Two of them refer to Antiochus Epiphanies in the second century BC, which was past at the time of Christ's statement. Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? It may be that there is a sense of double fulfilment with one or both of these texts. The other two refer to the same event which happens in the middle of the last seven years of this age, ~3.5 years before the Beast is cast into a lake of fire. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. The Father said, "this is my beloved Son ... hear ye Him." Christ's single statement is enough. Glory be unto Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Christ's second coming will not be a secret by any measure. It will be the most obvious event in the history of the world. First, let me say that there is only one future coming (parousia) of Christ, not two separated by seven years. It is His second, as testified by Paul in the book of Hebrews chapter 9 verse 28. Peter made it clear that Christ will remain in Heaven until the times of the restitution of all things at which point the Father will send Him to rescue us and begin to pour out His wrath upon the earth-dwellers. This coming takes place at some point in the second half of the seventieth week after the sun, moon, and stars go dark. Every eye will see Him and all kindreds shall react to His appearance Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. His coming (parousia) will be unmistakable. The glory of Christ and the holy angels will fill the sky. His arrival will be as unmistakable as a dead carcase is to carrion-eating birds. Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. All the tribes will react to Christ's arrival in the clouds with power and great glory Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. The Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven to raise the dead and rapture His own to Him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Christ will send His angels to gather (catch up) us to Him in the air Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The appearance of Christ and the angels will be so terrifying that the earth dwellers of every class and station will attempt to hide themselves. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The saints that remain will be watching the sky for Him once the sun, moon, and stars go dark Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. The tribulation, for the saints, is over at that point but the world’s tribulation is just beginning 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Nothing about Christ's parousia (which includes the rapture) is secret. Glory be unto Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, The topic here is "Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture". How does one defend the indefensible? You start by stating assumptions as fact. You use these assumptions to build a layered fortress through circular reasoning. This system of circular reasoning, in the minds of the errant, is used to twist even the most explicit of Biblical statements. That which is most plain and clear must mean something different than it obviously says or else the whole system, made up of what is thought to be orthodox truth, collapses. Some of these misunderstandings (I'm being charitable) which are thought to be orthodox are: 1) Imminence, Christ could come secretly at any moment to rapture His church. 2) The seventieth week is the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord. 3) God has to rapture the church before he can deal with the Jews. 4) God uses the Beast as an instrument of His wrath upon the tribulation saints. 5) God's wrath begins with the opening of the first seal. 6) The 144,000 are Jewish evangelists who bring about the greatest revival in history. 7) The great tribulation is for the Jews, the church will not be present. And there are many more. These tenants of pretribulationism are all interdependent upon each other. The whole system is built upon misunderstandings and assumed inferences predicated upon those misunderstandings. If one falls, they all fall. But as we have heard concerning some corporations or organizations, "they are too big to fail." So like those, pretribulationism is propped up by denominational leaders and those teachers who would lose face were they to correct their teaching. Many of these, upon being exposed, instead of repenting, double down and go to greater lengths in the wresting of the Scriptures. They are forever finding new, so-called, references to a pre-trib rapture that they can publish in books to satisfy the itching ears of those who love to have it so. The latest of these is "the apostasia = the rapture" false teaching being promoted by House, Woods, Ice, and others. I will deal with each of these misunderstandings as I have time. The false teaching of Imminence Imminency is one of the pillars which holds up the Pre-trib model of eschatology. The so-called doctrine of imminency purports that the Bible teaches that a secret rapture could happen at any moment and that the condition has been such since the days of the Apostles. Many passages which communicate an air of expectancy are referenced in support of this teaching. However, this is just another of the false notions which support the Pre-trib rapture model. In investigation of this teaching let’s look at all the verses that are used to support the any moment return of Christ and ask of each of them the question: does this verse say that Christ could rapture His church at any moment? Let’s look at each of these supposed proofs for the doctrine of imminence. Before each passage of Scripture, I have written a short statement of what is communicated in it concerning the rapture and Christ’s coming. You will notice that not even one of these passages say that Jesus will return unexpectedly at “any moment.” Jesus says he will come again to receive His own to Himself Joh 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. All creation is waiting for the day the saints come into the fullness of their inheritance Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. Waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ 1Co 1:7-8 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. The living believer will be changed in an indivisible point of time at the last trump following the resurrection of the dead in Christ. 1Co 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The Lord is coming 1Co 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. Looking for our Saviour and our glorification Php 3:20-21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. The Lord is near Php 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. When He appears we shall appear with Him Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. We are to wait for Jesus to rescue us from the coming wrath 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. For the believer to be in the Lord’s presence at His coming is Paul's ultimate reward 1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? Jesus is coming to take unto Himself both the dead and the living in Christ. Those alive shall be caught up together with the dead in Christ into the clouds to be forever with the Lord. 1Th 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. The believer whether living or dead is not appointed unto wrath but to be saved from it 1Th 5:9-10 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Paul prayed that the whole man would be blameless unto the Lord’s coming 1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ’s coming and our gathering to Him (the day of Christ) will not be at hand until the ap-os-tas-ee'-ah and revealing of the man of sin comes 2Th 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Paul tells Timothy to keep the commandment until Jesus appears 1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Jesus will judge the living and dead at His appearing and His kingdom 2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Believers are to live right as they look for that blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ Tit 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. For many years, it has been taught that the blessed hope is the rapture/resurrection of the dead in Christ and that the glorious appearing is something altogether separate. But this is absolutely false. The rapture is an integral part of the Parousia (arrival and continuing presence) of Christ. There is only one future Parousia of Christ, His second coming. Jesus will save or rescue those who look for Him when He appears the second time Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Be patient waiting for the Lord’s coming, it is getting nearer Jas 5:7-9 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. Be rewarded at the revelation of Jesus by passing the test when your faith is tried 1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Peter says that the trial of our faith will be rewarded at Christ's appearing. The Greek word translated appearing in this passage is the same one from which we get the title of the book of Revelation in Rev. 1:1. It is the word (ap-ok-al'-oop-sis) which is a disclosure, revealing, or manifestation of something or someone. In this text, it is the revelation or appearing of Jesus Himself. The word is used to describe this event seven times in the New Testament. Paul speaks of this event using the same Greek word. It is here translated “revealed”. 2Th 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Notice that His revelation is when the saints will be able to rest from the tribulation they are experiencing. His revelation is when He comes in vengeance with the mighty angels. It is when He will be glorified in His saints (That is when the principalities and powers in heavenly places see the wisdom of God in the redemption of mankind [“his saints”] and the Eternal God is glorified [Eph. 3:10]. The redemption that brings God glory is complete at the first resurrection/rapture when the saints receive their immortal bodies [Luke 21:28, Rom. 8:23, Php. 3:21, 1 Cor. 15:51-52]). It really isn’t hard to see, that, again and again, the Scriptures tell us that the rapture/resurrection and the revelation/second coming are part of the singular return of Christ (parousia) and they happen at the same time. Be completely confident that at His revelation Jesus Christ will come with favour toward you 1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; Peter says that it is at Christ’s revelation that we are to with confidence expect his favour, implying that we meet Him then. This is the revelation (ap-ok-al'-oop-sis) of Rev 1:7, 2Thes 1:7 and Matt 24:30. Have confidence and not shame before Christ at His coming and appearance by continuing in Him 1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. John here clearly says that it is at His coming (parousia) that we, the church, stand before him. We will be like Christ when He appears 1Jn 3:1-2 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Guard your love for God as you confidently await His mercy unto eternal life Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jesus tells the faithful in Thyatira to maintain their faithfulness till He comes Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. Because of their faithfulness, those of the church in Philadelphia will not experience the time of trial that will come upon the earth dwellers Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. The texts that we have just looked at are the 26 prominent passages used to teach imminence, the any moment return of Jesus Christ to rapture His church. However, as it has been demonstrated, not a single one of them says that Jesus will appear at any moment to rapture away His church. In them we are told that He will at some future time gather His own unto Himself. We are also told that we should patiently wait for His return. But not a single one says to expect Him at any moment. Imminency is a false doctrine After honest investigation, it is clear that imminency is a false doctrine. In fact, the teaching of an “any moment” return of Christ is a subtle twisting of the true Bible doctrine of watchful expectancy for Christ’s return. Imminency as it is taught today by pre-tribbers, was developed and has become entrenched as an essential support for the pre-trib rapture model. As such it has found a place in the doctrinal statements of evangelical churches right alongside of the Deity of Christ and Christ's future literal, physical, premillennial coming. For roughly the past hundred and fifty years, many believers without any critical scriptural investigation have believed in the “any moment” return of Christ for His church. One single passage of Scripture is all it takes to expose this as a false teaching. Peter didn't preach imminency Jesus says to Peter in the forty days after His resurrection: Joh 21:18-19 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. Jesus told Peter how he would die, saying that he would be an old man. That being true, it is certain that Peter could never have believed or taught that Jesus could come at any moment and rapture him away. Jesus spoke of Peter’s death, how he should glorify God. Peter would die as a martyr in his old age, he would not be among the living saints to be raptured. Extra-Biblical history tells us that both Peter and Paul died as martyrs in June of 67 AD. That passage alone should strike the death nail to the false doctrine of imminency. Yet there are many more scriptural observations which make it clear that the any moment rapture is unsupported by the Holy Scriptures. Paul didn't preach imminency It is also true that Paul didn’t believe or teach the any moment rapture either. At the time of Paul’s conversion, it was promised that he would bear Christ’s name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel and that he would suffer great things for Christ’s sake. Act 9:15-16 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. God also spoke through Agabus concerning Paul’s future. Act 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. Later the Lord told Paul that he would witness in Rome also. Act 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome. Paul, when writing to Timothy, spoke of his soon departure from this life (his death as a martyr). 2Ti 4:6-8 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. All this being true, there is no way that Paul taught an “any moment” rapture. In fact, he taught exactly what Jesus did (Matt 24:9-10, many shall be offended), which is that there must first be a falling away (a notable departure from the faith) and that the antichrist would be revealed before the coming (parousia) and our gathering together unto Christ. 2Th 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Expectancy is not imminency The Bible teaches watchful expectance not an any moment rapture. Glory be to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, MM, you are arguing against things that I neither believe nor teach. You definitely are not grasping what I nor many others are clearly teaching. You need to understand what one is saying before answering them. In the nuclear industry, I was taught a principle called repeat back. When something was said the hearer would have to repeat it back to him to ensure that what was communicated was understood. I think that principle is a good one to use here. As I understand Christ, the Prophets, and the Apostles, there will be, prior to Christ's return, events which will indicate to us that His arrival approaches. These events include but are not limited to 1) The covenant confirmed with the many; 2) The happenings that Jesus calls the beginning of sorrows; 3) what John sees at the opening of the first six seals (the first three of which parallel the beginning of sorrows); 4) the abomination of desolation (the man of sin is revealed in the temple defiling it) begins the unprecedented persecution following the beginning of sorrows (this corresponds with what John sees at the opening of the 4th and 5th seals); 5) many will fall away (depart from the faith) when violent persecution and the deception of the lying signs and wonders take place; 6) the cosmic sign of Joel, that Jesus referenced and John saw, happens, heralding Christ's arrival; 7) Christ appears in the clouds in His glory with the holy angels, at which time He resurrects and raptures His own. After we are safe before the throne in heaven Christ begins to pour out His wrath upon the earth-dwellers in the trumpet and vial judgments. You are correct, none of these judgements are focussed upon Israel. They are part of the hour of temptation that will come upon all the world to try the earth dwellers who will have been worshipping the Beast and persecuting the saints. Glory be to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, MM, The great tribulation is Satan's wrath through the Beast upon the elect and Israel. The day of the Lord is the wrath of God, His fierce vengeance upon the earth dwellers who worshipped the Beast and persecuted us, the elect. Until you understand this simple truth you will not rightly understand what Christ, the prophets and the apostles had to say about the events which precede Christ's coming. The trumpet and vial judgments come after the great tribulation is over. Having been raptured, Christ will pour out His wrath upon our persecutors. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Glory be to Jesus Christ our Lord

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, MM, it is an idiom that means unprecedented. You use a poor translation. From righteous Able, the son of Adam, to the last dear saint martyred before the rapture, the righteous have always been and will be persecuted. This persecution will intensify in scope and severity in the middle of the seventieth week. Then it will be called Jacob's trouble, an unprecedented time of trouble (Dan 12:1), and great tribulation. In the context of each of those references trouble and tribulation refers to violent persecution. Jesus is saying that the persecution of the elect (the righteous) will be unprecedented in nature right before He comes for us, so much so, that if it wasn't shortened in time none of the elect would be left alive. Glory be unto Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Dennis1209, there is not a single place in all of the Holy Scriptures that says there is a seven-year period called the tribulation. The word tribulation is translated from the Greek word thlipsis. It refers to pressure and its meaning is highly dependent on the context. Since Jesus said that in this world we would have tribulation (thlipsis) and Paul said that all they that will live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution, and he also said that we are appointed unto thlipsis (1Thes 3:3) and that it is given on the behalf of Christ to suffer for His sake (Phil 1:29), it can rightly be said that we are today living in the tribulation period. However, we are not in Daniel's seventieth week, nor are we in Jacob's trouble or what Jesus called great tribulation. The seventieth week begins with the confirming of the covenant and there is no mention of anything being unprecedented until the abomination of desolation takes place. The unprecedented violent persecution of the great tribulation doesn't begin until the middle of the seven years when the abomination of desolation takes place. Jesus tells us all about it in Matt 24:9-29. Glory be unto the Lamb

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, MM, Jesus makes it rather clear what “great tribulation” is in Matt 24, if one will simply observe the time-related words and the connecting adverbs, like “therefore”. Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? [Note that the context of Christ's answer is the end of the age, the time period of His parousia] Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Mat 24:9 Then [following the beginning of sorrows] shall they deliver you up to be afflicted [thlipsis], and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Mat 24:10 And then [during this persecution] shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then [when the gospel has been preached in all the world] shall the end come. Mat 24:15 When [the timing of the defiling of the temple spoken of by Daniel] ye therefore [refers back to the persecution that follows the beginning of sorrows in verse 9] shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:16 Then [at the defiling of the temple, the abomination of desolation, which begins unprecedented persecution] let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Mat 24:21 For then [at the defiling of the temple] shall be great tribulation [thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Mat 24:23 Then [during this unprecedented persecution] if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. Mat 24:26 Wherefore [because of false Christs] if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Mat 24:29 Immediately after [at once, following the unprecedented persecution] the tribulation [thlipsis] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then [subsequent to the cosmic sign] shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then [at the appearing of Christ] shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. I hope this helps you to see that great tribulation is the unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel and not the wrath of God poured out upon the day of the Lord after the great tribulation is over. Glory be unto Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. The verse says that the days of unprecedented persecution that Jesus began to describe in verse 9 ("those days") are shortened. Jesus continues to say what would result if the time of unprecedented persecution was not shortened. He says, if that was the case, none of the persecuted, the elect, would be physically left alive. In verse 29, Jesus continues, telling us of the event which signals that the persecution is over. When the sun, moon, and stars go dark the great tribulation is over. Joel tells us that the sun, moon, and stars going dark is the cosmic sign which precedes the day of the Lord. Jesus says that He will be seen coming in the clouds of heaven after the cosmic sign. The cosmic sign heralds Christ's arrival. He comes in power and glory with the mighty angels. All the earth dwellers who had been persecuting us will begin to flee and hide at that time (Rev 6:12-17). Paul tells us that Christ will begin to tribulate the earth dwellers who had been persecuting us at that time (2Thes 1:6). The great tribulation is shortened (ended) by Christ's arrival at which time all the saints are resurrected and together with those of us who are alive and remain shall be raptured to meet Christ in the air. Glory be to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Last Daze, the Beast's 42 months begins with the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem in which his immediate focus is the saints and Jews in Judaea. After that, the unprecedented persecution will spread throughout the world. When it appears that he will extinguish all the elect from the earth those of us who are left alive are rescued in the rapture. He then endures the plagues of the trumpet and vial judgments, at the end of which, he gathers the nations to fight against the Lamb. The Lamb destroys the nations that follow Him and casts him into a lake of fire. All through this period, the woman, a portion of Israel, is hidden, fed, and protected in the wilderness. Also, the beast will be plagued by the two witnesses until they are slain. There will also be 144,000 Israelite men who are virgins that remain upon the earth through a period of the wrath of day of the Lord. They will be sealed for protection from the wrath of God. Christ, in verse 22, is emphasizing the severity of that persecution not teaching that the elect stop the persecution. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Glory be to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Gentlemen, there is no profit in responding to Bable Man ( I will not call him something that he is not. I have renamed him to fit his teaching, confusion). He knows all prophecy. God told him personally, just ask him. Spiritual blindness is a heart problem. Some men love esteem and praise (even if they have to praise themselves) more than they love truth. If we simply present (preach) the truth frequently, reproving false teaching, those who love truth more than the esteem of their peers will be recovered from the darkness and led into the glorious light. Those who are spiritually blind will only come to the light through repentance. The longer they persist in opposition to the explicit statements of Christ, the Prophets, and the Apostles the further they will venture into the wresting of the Scriptures to their own destruction. That is where this recent false teaching of apostasia = rapture proceeds from. They continually find more and more references to the "pre-trib" rapture all the time. For instance, yesterday I heard one of them refer to "the mercy" in Jude 1:21 as meaning pre-trib rapture. Rejection of truth leads to darkness. If you are caught up in the pre-trib deception, right now, from a sincere heart, pray: "God have mercy upon me, show me the truth even when I want a lie". Your deceitful heart wants a lie, it wants smooth things, and it loves to have it so. Repent. Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Isa 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof? 2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. There is only one future (2nd) coming (parousia) of Christ. Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. This coming (parousia) involves both our gathering together unto Jesus Christ in the clouds and the beginning of His wrath being poured out in the day of the Lord. It is on the same calendar day that we are rescued and His wrath begins to fall upon the earth dwellers 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. ... 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath [wrath, in the day of the Lord, vs 2], but to obtain salvation [find rest and deliverance from persecution], by our Lord Jesus Christ [at His coming], 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled [you who are being persecuted] rest [be delivered, be physically saved from persecution] with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time [the time of unprecedented persecution] thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book [the believing Jews and the believing Gentiles who were graffed in amongst them will be raptured]. When one recognizes and believes even one of the many explicit truths like, 1) There is only one future coming (parousia) of Christ; 2) The day of our rescue, rapture, is the day God's "day of the Lord" wrath begins to fall upon the earth dwellers; or 3) God's wrath doesn't begin to fall until after the cosmic sign spoken of by Joel appears, it will force him or her away from the fallacious pre-trib system and he or she will no longer need to read that bankrupt system into the text wresting the Scriptures to their own destruction. Glory be unto Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Last Daze, in Matt 24 Jesus begins to provide details of the major sign of His coming (parousia) in verse 9. The sign is the unprecedented violent persecution of the elect. He continues describing it right up until He says it ends when the sun, moon, and stars go dark heralding His return in verses 29-30. This unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) begins with the abomination of desolation and will be focussed upon the elect. From Daniel, Paul, and John we know that the persecutor is the Beast and his followers. This time of great tribulation for the elect will be business as usual for those that follow the beast. They will be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, buying and selling, planting and building while we are being persecuted unto death. We will be cut off from our respective societies, not being able to buy nor sell, and we will constantly be under threat of beheading, if caught, after refusing to worship the Beast and take his mark. Jesus said that those who endure to the end shall be saved. Paul said the church would find rest from persecution when Christ is revealed. Paul also said that not all believers would die physically, but that those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord would be changed and caught up to be with Jesus. Daniel recorded that those people of God who will experience the unprecedented period of trouble, would be delivered out of it. Clearly, not all the saints will be killed during the great tribulation. However, Jesus emphasizes the severity of it saying that if it was not shortened none of the elect would physically survive. The Beast's time of power is not shortened, just his ability to persecute the church. When we are raptured he cannot persecute any of us anymore. Glory be unto Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, There is but one future coming (parousia) of Christ. Coming is translated from the Greek word pronounced "par-oo-see'-ah". "Parousia" means arrival and continuing presence. It communicates much more than an approach. This is lost to the casual reader of the Scriptures who doesn't consider the underlying Greek text. There is also another word, translated coming (erchomai), which simply means to come or go and in this context refers to an approach. Both of these are used when describing Christ's appearing in the clouds at His return, but parousia involves much more than an approach. Let's see these being used in passages relating to Christ's return. The disciples ask for the sign that will indicate that Christ's coming (parousia = arrival and continuing presence) is at hand (near in time). Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming [parousia], and of the end of the world? Jesus says that His coming (parousia) will be unmistakable, like the lightning which lights up the whole sky Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [parousia] of the Son of man be. Jesus says that after the sun, moon, and stars go dark they will see Him coming (erchomai), that is approaching in the clouds Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming [erchomai] in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Jesus says the lost world will be caught unexpectedly at His coming (parousia), like those in the days of Noah were when the flood came Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [parousia] of the Son of man be. Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [parousia] of the Son of man be. Paul says that at Christ's coming (parousia) we will be resurrected and raptured 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Paul says that the day of Christ involves the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. The 2nd coming, therefore, encompasses not only His decent from the right hand of the Father in Heaven to the atmospheric clouds but also all that He is involved with after that. It includes the resurrection, rapture, and all interaction with His saints who have been made immortal. It further includes His wrath poured out upon the earth-dwellers in the day of the Lord (trumpet and vial judgements), the destruction of the armies of the nations that follow the Beast, the casting of the beast and false prophet alive int a lake of fire, the binding of Satan in the bottomless pit, the judgment of the nations, His rule over them with a rod of iron, and so on. Paul mentioned a second coming of Christ but nowhere is there a third mentioned. Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Revelation 19 describes His ongoing interaction with the lost world long into the day of the Lord. This takes place much time after His initial arrival. His initial arrival to rescue His saints happens before His wrath begins to be poured out. The latter part of Rev 19 describes Christ and the armies which follow Him at the end of the period of His wrath, when He destroys the Beast and False Prophet. Just as Christ's first coming involved much more than His conception or birth; it included his life, ministry, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. So also His second coming involves much more than His arrival in the clouds. Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. There are not two future comings of Christ with seven years between them. That teaching is at best nothing more than wishful thinking. At worst it is a doctrine of devils designed to dissolution and deceive the masses who call themselves Christians so that when unprecedented violent persecution coupled with the great deception of the lying signs and wonders falls upon them they will deny Christ and worship the Beast. True believers have been forewarned by Christ and will not fall for the deception. We are overcomers. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Glory be to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Glory be unto Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, JoeCanada, your beginning post is enough to convince any honest, truth-loving, believer that the recent teaching of "apostasia = rapture" is utter foolishness. Those who persist in the promotion of such foolishness have chosen to love not the truth. It is God's prerogative to take away even the truth that one has when one continually rejects truth. This is a spiritual blindness that they have brought upon themselves, it will only be removed upon their repentance. God is merciful and will recover the contrite to the truth, if they, with all humility, cry out to God that their eyes may be opened. If they become willing to be corrected by the Word of God as opposed to wresting the Scriptures to their own destruction only then will they see. No amount of argumentation can convince one who is unwilling. Thank you for your participation in this forum. There are still many who love truth and are willing to be instructed or corrected by the Word. Glory be to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Last Daze, in context, it is the days of unprecedented violent persecution (great tribulation) that are shortened for the sake of the elect. It is the elect who are being violently persecuted and killed. Jesus is saying that if He didn't come to provide salvation (deliverance, rescue) before the Beast's 42 months are complete no believer would be left alive upon the earth. The Beast is granted 42 months that He will prevail over the saints as seen in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5-7. However, the Beast's persecution of the elect (those that are Christ's) is over when Christ appears at His parousia, resurrects the dead in Christ, and catches up those of us who are alive and remain together with the resurrected unto Himself in the clouds. The elect have nothing to do with ending this period of unprecedented violent persecution unless one considers that we can affect the rate at which we are slain during this period forcing the Lord to rescue us before all of us are killed. Both Christ and Paul taught that some believers would escape death altogether. These would be changed and caught up in the rapture and therefore not experience death. Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Jesus will come to bring us rest and begin to tribulate our persecutors before all of us are slain. How many will there be that remain? I don't know. Jesus said: Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? It is God's plan that not all believers die at the hand of the Beast. That is why He must shorten the period of persecution yet still allow Satan and the Beast he empowers the full 42 months. Those Israelites who are hidden, protected and fed in the wilderness (Rev 12) will remain upon the earth through the 42 months, but those in Christ will be raptured away from the earth following the sun, moon, and stars going dark which announces Christ's arrival and continuing presence. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. I believe the translation is as it should be. Glory be unto Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, HWC2040, you failed to recognize that the words translated "power" in verses seven and eight are not the same. Power in verse 7 is translated from exousia which means authority, and power in verse 8 is translated from dunamis which refers to strength. They have different meanings. The disciples would receive power in the sense of strength, not in the sense of authority. You cannot make the conclusions that you have from this text. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Glory be to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mr. mad, you have my sincerest thanks. I believe that, to most readers, a warning from you is a great endorsement to the truth of what I teach. I wouldn't want to be associated with your teaching in any way. Please keep them coming. Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. Glory be to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, The Pre-Wrath model for the timing of the catching up of the saints is the teaching of the Apostles, Prophets, and our Lord Jesus Christ. It is a synthesis of what is true and correct about the pre and post trib models, but unlike them, it does not conflict with any of the explicit statements of the Holy Scriptures. The pre-wrath model is a harmony of all that Christ, the Prophets, and the Apostles had to say about the matter. Here is a short synopsis of the pre-wrath model for the timing of the rapture. There is a future week of seven years spoken of by Daniel the prophet (Dan. 9:27) which comes at the end of the present age (Mat 24:3). This seven-year period of time is initiated by the Antichrist when he confirms the covenant with many (Dan. 9:27). In the midst (middle) of the seven years the Antichrist, or Beast as he is called by John in the book of Revelation, sits in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and demands to be worshipped as God (2 Thes 2:3-4). This revelation of the man of sin is the abomination of desolation that Jesus refers to (Matt 24:15). When this takes place, Jesus says, “then shall be great tribulation” (Matt 24:21). The great tribulation is an unprecedented time of violent persecution of both Israel and believers in Jesus Christ, the Church (Jer 30:7; Dan 12:1; Matt 24:9, 21-22; Rev 6:9-11; 7:9-14; 12:11-17; 13:7,15). To prevent the Beast and the False Prophet from killing every last Christian the great tribulation is shortened (Matt 24:22). Jesus says that “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (the days in context it is the great tribulation of verse 21) the cosmic sign, which announces the arrival of the Day of the LORD, happens (Matt 24:29). There is a great earthquake, the sun, moon, and stars go dark, and Jesus is seen coming in glory in the clouds of heaven (Rev 6:12-14; Matt 24:30). The dead in Christ are resurrected (1Cor 15:51-52). The persecuted saints (the elect), who remain alive, lift up their heads, look up, and are caught up by the angels to be with Jesus in the clouds (Luke 21:28, Matt 24:31). The unbelieving Beast followers hide themselves for fear of the wrath of the Lamb (Rev 6:15-17). The very same day there is half an hour of silence in Heaven then the Lord begins to pour out His wrath in the form of the trumpet judgements (Rev 8). This teaching is extremely important to communicate to pretribulationists, because their eschatological misunderstanding leaves them unprepared to face the unprecedented violent persecution and demonic deception of the great tribulation. They do not prepare for that which they believe they will never face. It is those who have embrased the great escape (pre-trib rapture) that are at the greatest risk. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Alan, the axiom "none are so blind as they who will not see" appears to fit your determined effort to hold onto an eschatological system that has been exposed as a great fraud. Alan, the Emperor (pretribulationism) has no clothes. We have seen behind the curtain and all that is there is a little old man (no Biblical support for pretribulationism). So, for the hundredth time let's look at the Scriptures to see what is said about the unprecedented persecution that will come upon the last generation of the church. Jesus warns us that prior to His coming we will face unprecedented violent persecution (Matt 24:9, 21). This unprecedented persecution He called great tribulation. Jesus begins to speak of the great tribulation in verse 9 of Matt 24, and continues to give details until verse 29 when He describes the cosmic sign which announces His impending arrival. Verse 9 identifies the cause of the persecution as being for Christ's name's sake. Three times in the text Christ identifies those being persecuted as the elect (Matt 24:22, 24, 31). The elect are distinguished from unbelieving Israel by Paul (Rom 11:7). All throughout the NT the church is called the elect. The disciples that Jesus was giving an answer to were the founding members of the church (Eph 2:20). He told these same disciples the very same week that if He went away He would come again and receive them unto Himself that where He is they could be also (John 14:3). The disciples asked Him concerning the end of the age and He said that He would be with them in the making of disciples until the end of the age (Matt 24:3; 28:20). Christ said that before His arrival the persecution that His followers have been accustomed to would reach an unprecedented level of violence, so much so, that He says that if those days were not shortened, none of the elect would be left alive upon the earth (Matt 24:22). Paul says that the church will rest from being persecuted (trouble) when Christ is revealed with the mighty angels taking vengeance upon the unbelievers who had been persecuting them. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. The subjects in context of 2Thes 2:6-10 are believers in the "church age". These believers are experiencing persecution at the hands of those who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These unbelievers are those who take the mark and worship the Beast, those unbelieving who are alive at Christ's revelation. Paul says the tables will be turned when Christ is revealed. At that time the church will have rest from persecution and those who persecuted us will be tribulated by the Lord. Paul's statement is consistent with Christ's narrative of the days which precede His coming. According to Jesus, it is His arrival and the catching up of the elect which effectively ends the unprecedented persecution. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The cosmic sign, which portends Christ's arrival and the wrath of God on the day of the Lord, takes place. Then Christ and the Holy angels are revealed in the clouds for all the world to see. Then the resurrection/change takes place followed by the catching up (rapture) by the angels to be with Jesus in the clouds. Then later the same day His wrath begins to fall upon the earth-dwellers (Luke 17:26-30; Rev 8). Paul says the church rests from persecution at Christ's revelation. Jesus says that the great tribulation (unprecedented persecution upon the elect) ends at Christ's revelation. In comparison, we see that the elect of Matt 24 are the church. It is the Church and Israel that is the focus of Satan's wrath in the great tribulation. Again, I have demonstrated that both Jesus and Paul say that we will experience the great tribulation before we are raptured to escape God's wrath in the day of the Lord. Glory be to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Argosy, you are absolutely correct that there is only one future coming (parousia) of Christ. At the same time, it is also true that those who are Christ's will be kept from (out of) the hour of temptation that will come upon all the earth to try the earth-dwellers (Rev 3:10). We are not appointed unto God's wrath when it is poured out in the day of the Lord (1Thes 5:9). In the middle of the week, the man of sin is revealed in the rebuilt temple, demanding to be worshipped as God (2Thes 2:3-4). From that point, he has 42 months that he will continue before he will be cast alive into a lake of fire (Rev 13:5, 19:20). However, the unprecedented persecution that begins when he is revealed, is said by Christ, to be cut short to save some of the elect alive upon the earth (Matt 24:22). The period of our persecution will be at least 6 months less than the Beast's 42 months. The fifth trumpet judgement alone lasts 5 months. There has to be enough time in the 42 months of the Beast for the trumpet and vial judgements to fall before he is cast into the fire. This time is what is left of the 42 months after the great tribulation is cut short by Christ's return. So, the period of unprecedented persecution of the elect (the church) will be significantly less than 3.5 years. Exactly how much less we do not know. Yet there will be upon the earth a remnant of Israel that shall be hidden and fed in the wilderness for 1260 days, the full period that the Beast continues. Glory to Jesus Christ

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Uriah, It may seem weird to you, but it doesn't change the fact that angels left their created habitation (spiritual bodies) and took them wives of the daughters of men and from them were born giants. The Bible and all the ancient historical records before Julius Africanus in the 3rd century AD identified the sons of God in Gen 6 as fallen angels. Africanus didn't like the ridicule received for believing something so supernatural, so he introduced the more palatable teaching which has become known as the godly line of Seth. That's where this foolishness began. The son's of God were angels. All the ancient teachings of the Jews bear witness to this. In fact, the Septuagint translates "bane eloheem" with "angelos". Concerning how spirits can cohabitate with physical creatures, angels can take physical form. Some examples would be: The residents of Sodom wanted to physically abuse the angels that came to rescue Lot. It has been said that we should be careful to entertain strangers because angels visit us unawares, that is without being recognized as angels. There is a difference between being able to bring about conception and needing to reproduce to maintain your kind. Angels are immortal, they don't need to reproduce, but they can. We are way off topic, but you are way off on this matter. I thought I might be able to spur you to further study. Glory to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, MM, what have you been smoking? You said that Peter, James, John, and Andrew were not believers, but only followers, whatever that means. Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. Joh 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. You might want to spend more time listening to and asking questions of those who know Christ and His Word and making fewer statements. Your statements only expose your ignorance of the Holy Scriptures. No, I don't expect that I will be in Judea when the man of sin is revealed in the temple. However, there will be believers there who will greatly benefit from Christ's warning not to return to their homes to pack but to immediately flee. Glory to Jesus Christ