Steve Conley

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, In all of the Holy Scriptures where does it say that there is going to be seven years of tribulation? There isn't a single reference to such a thing. There is the seventieth week of seven years. There are seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven vials, but no seven years of tribulation. There is the beginning of sorrows, great tribulation, and the day of the Lord, but no seven years of tribulation. There is Jacob's trouble which is unprecedented, and Daniel's unprecedented time of trouble, and great tribulation which is unprecedented, but no seven years of tribulation. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, The woman is Israel, Satan is the Dragon, and the child caught up to Heaven is Christ. The remnant are those believers who remain, those who were not hidden, fed and protected in the wilderness. I was a pretribulationist for 40 years and taught it for 30, until I was confronted with some very simple and explicit statements of the Scriptures that were entirely irreconcilable with the pre-trib model. I fully believe, what the Scriptures say concerning the fact that God will not pour out His wrath upon His own. (Why do pre-tribbers believe that God's faithful martyrs experience God's wrath?) 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. The church which is represented by the word "us" in 1Thes 5:9-10 is the same church that is represented by the words "you" and "us" in 2Thes 1:6-7. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, We will face persecution until Jesus comes, and the last generation will face unprecedented persecution. One of the things that I failed to recognize, that led to the false assumption that the rapture was before the great tribulation, is that the thlipsis (tribulation) is not the wrath of God, but is persecution. In the context of Christ's return, thlipsis is particularly the persecution of the elect (church) and Israel by the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers. Paul tell us that we are appointed unto thlipsis. Jesus said that we would have thlipsis. The earth dwellers hated Jesus and persecuted Jesus, they will hate us and persecute us. In the context of events which precede Christ's parousia, Jesus said that we would face violent persecution. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Jesus said that the persecution will be so severe that it will be unparalleled in nature and that the period of this severe persecution will need to be cut short to save some of us alive upon the earth. Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. The martyrs under the alter that John sees at the opening of the 5th seal are told that vengeance (that is God's wrath) upon their murderers would have to wait until more of their brethren are martyred. Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Martyrs are the focus of what John sees right prior to the opening of the 6th seal at which point he sees the cosmic sign which portends Christ's arrival initiating the beginning of the day of the Lord. Another explicit statement of the Holy Scriptures makes it clear that the seventieth week in its entirety is not the day of the Lord. In fact, the day of the Lord doesn't begin until after the great tribulation is cut short at some point in the second half of the week. Joel says that a cosmic sign must come prior to the day of the Lord. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. John witnesses this sign at the opening of the 6th seal. Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The day of the Lord cannot begin until after the 6th seal is open. These truths are irreconcilable with the pre-trib model, therefore it must be in error. It appears that God isn't a pretribulationist. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Let me continue with the Scriptural justification for my statements. 3) When He reveals Himself to all the world (Rev 1:7) Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 1Co 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 4) Resurrects the dead in Christ 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 5) Changes the surviving elect 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. 6) Then raptures the resurrected and changed to be with Him in the clouds. 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, All of this and more takes place upon the day of His arrival. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, No, I'm not a post-tribulationist, however, I do recognize that Jesus, Paul, and John all place the catching up of the saints after the unprecedented persecution that Jesus called great tribulation. 1) The day begins at Christ's arrival There is only one second coming (parousia). Parousia means arrival and continuing presence. It is not the same as erchomi which means approaching. There are not two future comings of Christ, there is only one. Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Christ's arrival to receive us unto Himself is the very day that he begins to pour out His wrath upon the unbelieving who will have been persecuting us. The day of our rescue is the day His wrath begins. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. The church will rest from persecution when Christ is revealed taking vengeance upon our persecutors 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2) At His parousia 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world? Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, I'll get to the rest later when I return home. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, When Christ descends from the 3rd Heaven into the atmospheric heaven, into the clouds, it will be up against the backdrop of total darkness. His radiant glory shall so shine forth and that of the heavenly host of mighty angels, that it will be unmistakable. His appearing and revelation will be a spectacle like no other. Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, ... 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. When He arrives at His coming (parousia), He and the mighty angels will be revealed for all to see; the unbelieving will begin to hide; the dead in Christ are resurrected; the saints which remain alive, who were looking to the skies knowing that their redemption was nigh, are changed; both the resurrected and the survivors who have been changed are caught up (raptured) to be with Jesus in the clouds by the angels; Christ then escorts us to the Father's house to stand before the throne; He seals the 144,000 for protection from the plagues which will begin to fall upon the earth-dwellers the very same day; He opens the seventh seal; there is 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven; and the first trumpet is blown initiating the plagues of God's wrath in the day of the Lord. Since all of this happens on the very first day of His coming, His parousia will be unmistakable. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, iamlamad, by your statement I take it that you believe that the seventieth week is yet future. I do also. Let's consider what Scriptures there are which tie eschatological events to the seventieth week. Jesus ties the beginning of the great tribulation to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. He says that the defiling of the Temple will be a sign that unprecedented persecution is about to begin. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) ... Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. The prophecy from Daniel that He referred to mentions that the abomination which makes desolate happens in the midst (middle) of the seventieth week. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. So, roughly 3.5 years after the seventieth week has started and 3.5 years before its end the great tribulation begins with the man of sin standing in the Temple shewing himself to be God. That how Paul described the same event (2Thes 2:3-4). What is the great tribulation? It is the time of unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel. How do we know this? The "therefore" in Matt 24:15 lets us know that Christ is adding further detail to what He previously said about the future time of violent persecution that will serve as a sign that His coming approaches. The "then" in verse 9 indicates that after the beginning of sorrows (which Jesus said was not yet the end) would come violent persecution. Later in verse 21 He says this persecution will be unparalleled in scope and severity. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. He says that the result of the violent persecution will be that many are offended, that is that they depart from the faith like those who received seed into stony ground (Matt 13:20-21). Leaving the faith to follow the beast they will betray and hate us. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. That time will also be characterized by supernatural deception. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. The souls under the alter that John sees at the opening of the fifth seal suffered such martyrdom. They will be crying out to be avenged, but are told that they must wait a little season till more of their brethren are slain. Only then will God's wrath fall upon their persecutors. This is the promise of vengeance. At the opening of the sixth seal, John witnesses the cosmic sign which portends Christ's arrival initiating the day of the Lord. He also witnesses the reaction of the world to Christ's revelation. Revelation chapter 7 verses 9-17 shows the elect, having just been raptured, standing before the throne of God. These were resurrected/changed/raptured out of great tribulation. Christ's removal of the elect from the earth effectively ended the great tribulation even though the beast continues for what remains of his given 42 months. Revelation chapter 8 shows the beginning of the pouring out of God's wrath, starting with the first trumpet judgement. This is the wrath of God that begins on the first day of the "day of the Lord". What John sees at the opening of the sixth seal is the beginning of the day of the Lord which comes after the unprecedented persecution called great tribulation which begins in the middle of the week. The 6th seal events take place at the beginning of the last portion of the second half of the week. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, That the day of the Lord is not a 24 hour period, I understand well. The day begins at Christ's arrival, at His parousia, when He reveals Himself to all the world (Rev 1:7), resurrects the dead in Christ, changes the surviving elect, and then raptures the resurrected and changed to be with Him in the clouds. However, that is only the beginning of the day of the Lord. It shall continue to be the day of the Lord throughout His eternal reign. The first portion of His day is characterized by His wrath poured out upon the unbelieving, Beast worshipers, who will have been persecuting the church and Israel. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Heb 13:8, you must not have seen Joel's prophecy concerning the cosmic sign which comes prior to the day of the LORD. It is that cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal. This places the day of the Lord starting after the sixth seal not with the first seal. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? There is another way that we know that the day of the Lord didn't start with the first seal. It is what John sees at the opening of the 5th seal. He sees martyrs crying out for God to avenge their murders. However, they are told that vengeance would have to wait for a little season until others are martyred also. So God's wrath is yet to fall at the opening of the fifth seal. Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. It should be no surprise because Paul clearly said that the day that the church rests from persecution will be the day that God begins to tribulate our persecutors. The day that God executes vengeance upon those who put the saints to death is the day of the Lord. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? The day of the Lord does take up the last portion of the week, but it will be at least six months (the 5th trumpet judgement alone takes up 5 months) and maybe over three years. The length of the period of God's wrath will be determined by when the great tribulation is shortened. Jesus said it will be shortened to save some of the elect alive. The Beast continues for his given 42 months, however, the Lord removes the object of the Beast's persecution, the church, effectively ending the unprecedented persecution that Jesus called great tribulation. Maybe this visual will help. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. iamlamad, Diaste is right, you are in for a huge disappointment. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, The pre-wrath model for the timing of the rapture has many essential tenants. Some of them are stated below. Those who hold the Pre-Wrath position believe: · The church is not appointed unto God's wrath on the day of the Lord. · The church and the elect in Matt 24 are one and the same. · The "great tribulation" is not God's wrath upon the earth dwellers, it is Satan’s wrath upon the saints of God. · The church will see the Antichrist and go through the "great tribulation." · The "great tribulation" begins three and a half years into the seventieth week. · The "great tribulation" corresponds to what John sees at the opening of the 4th and 5th seals. · The "great tribulation" is shortened to save some of the elect alive. · The "great tribulation" is shortened by the arrival of Jesus Christ initiating the day of the Lord. · What John sees at the opening of the 6th seal is the earth-dwellers reaction to Christ's revelation at His arrival. · The arrival of Christ initiating the day of the LORD is portended by a great earthquake and the sun, moon, and stars going dark. · At Christ's arrival, the church is raptured before God's wrath begins to be poured out upon the earth dwellers. · The day of the rapture and Christ's arrival at the singular second coming (parousia) are one and the same. · The day of our deliverance will be the day that God begins to tribulate our persecutors. · God's eschatological wrath begins to fall upon our persecutors at the blowing of the first trumpet. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, iamlamad, I pay no attention to the words of self-appointed apostles, who speak of special revelation from my Saviour. Which special revelation is inconsistent with the more sure word of prophecy recorded by true apostles and prophets in the Holy Scriptures. Even a blind hog will root out an occasional acorn. You are correct the day of the Lord begins at Christ's arrival following the cosmic sign of Joel seen by John at the opening of the sixth seal. However, you are misguided concerning the timing of the sixth seal in relation to the seventieth week. The rapture comes at the parousia 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, Christ's arrival at His parousia initiates the day of the Lord Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Christ's arrival at His parousia follows the cosmic sign of the sun, moon, and stars going dark Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. The cosmic sign of the sun, moon, and stars going dark follows the great tribulation Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: The great tribulation begins in the middle of the week Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. The conclusion is that what John sees at the opening of the sixth seal takes place at some point in the second half of the week, at which point the elect are resurrected and raptured and Christ's wrath in the day of the Lord begins. My chart reflects the teaching of the true apostles and prophets, which cannot be said for your teaching. There is only one future parousia (arrival and continuing presence) of Christ. Jesus and Paul both refer to it taking place after the great tribulation (the unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel). You are in grave error sir, not me. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, The context of 1Thes 5:1 began in Chapter 4 verse 13. Paul begins there to inform them concerning those who have died in Christ, those who are asleep. His teaching on the subject continues till 5:10 where he says that both the living and dead (sleep) in Christ shall live together with Him. 1Thes 4:13-5:11 presents what takes place upon Christ's arrival at His parousia (arrival and continuing presence). Our gathering to Him and the beginning of the pouring out of His wrath take place upon the same day. 1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. Even though none but God know the day and hour of Christ's appearing and revelation, even the newest of believers can know the times and seasons of His return. Jesus told us in the Olivet discourse what signs would precede His arrival on the day of the Lord. Paul also mentioned some these to the Thessalonians in 2Thes 2:3. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, This teaching is what is known as the ruin and reconstruction theory or gap theory. I grew up being taught it. In my early years as an adult and preacher, with full confidence called it the gap fact. However, I was wrong. It is primarily an accommodation of the false science of evolution. The billions of fossils that are in the ground are the result of the great flood not the destruction of some pre-adamic race. Jesus taught the literal history of six days of creation as presented in Genesis. Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. One of the implications of holding such views is that if you are a pretribulationist who also believes the gap theory you must believe that the great tribulation will be not only worse than the complete destruction of Noahic world (with the exception of the few in the ark), but also the total aniliation of a pre-adamic world. Pretribulationists fail to see that Jesus is refering to the persecution of the elect and Israel when refering this time as being unprecedented. He is not saying that it is the greatest destruction God has ever brought upon rebelious mankind He is saying that it will be the most severe period of persecution that His own will ever face. Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. Sin which brought about death and destruction began with Adam and Eve, not some pre-adamic race. Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: ... Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Hazzard you are twisting the words of Peter. He is saying that the scoffers are willingly ignorant of the Lord's judgement of the world through water in the great flood of Noah's day. The scoffers are saying that the Lord isn't returning to judge them. They believe there will be no reconing for their rebelion against the Almighty. 2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. This has nothing to do with Christians not believing the gap theory. That idea is utter foolishness. The false teaching of a pre-adamic race (gap theory), from what we can tell, originated a couple hundred years before the apperance of the also false teaching of the secret rapture (pretribulationism), but was made popular by many of the same men who popularized pretribulationism over the last 150 years. However, unlike pretribulationism the vast majority of evangelicals have disavowed the gap theory largly due to the faithful ministries of organizations like Answers In Genesis. They have some excelent teaching combating the gap theory. https://answersingenesis.org/genesis/gap-theory/ Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Last Daze, you are free to believe these things if you want, but you are wrong. "The last day" is a period of time greatly exceding 24 hours. We know it as the day of Christ or the day of the Lord. It is upon Christ's arrival after descending from Heaven that the dead in Christ are raised and the survivors of great tribulation are changed. Following that, on the same day, all the elect are gathered to Christ in the clouds. Concerning Rev 16:15, neither of your two options for explaining such a text in its position between the sixth and seventh vial are correct. First, we do not use difficult passages to interpret or countermand the explicit teachings of the Holy Scriptures. To place the beginning of the day of the Lord after the sixth vial would have the church going through God's wrath in the trumpet and first six vial judgements. The reason I say this is that both Christ and Paul tell us that the day of our rescue will be the very day that Christ begins to pour out His wrath upon our persecutors. We are explicitly told that we are not appointed unto God's wrath, so the rapture must take place before the trumpet and vial judgements. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Concerning the sign of the Son of man and the coming of Christ, you are doing a similar thing to that which pre-tribbers do. They create two comings in an attempt to justify their erroneous rapture timing. The sign of the son of man is Christ's revelation in glory with the mighty angels for all the world to see. When you attempt to place an extended period of time between the sign and the rest of the passage you eliminate the reason that the great tribulation is over when the cosmic sign takes place. It is the cosmic sign which will signal Christ's coming at any moment. It is at that time He will deliver those who are alive and remain. It is this deliverance that ends the unprecedented persecution of the elect while allowing the Beast to continue for what is left of his 42 alloted months. The day of the Lord is the arrival and continuing presence of Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with the world. All of His eschatological wrath is executed during this period of time. Paul makes it clear, that it is the wrath of God upon the day of the Lord that we are not appointed unto. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. ... 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, The warning given in Rev 16:15 may be placed anywhere in the book to aid the readers of it. You are reading into the text if you say that the location of the warning means that Christ doesn't come as a thief until after the sixth vial is poured out. Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Again, we do not set aside explicit truths to accommodate those things which are thought to be inferred by a text. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ Pops, 1Corinthians 15:51-58 says nothing about a catching up (rapture). It speaks about the resurrection of the dead in Christ to immortality and the change of those who have survived the great tribulation to immortality without first dying. That was the mystery that Paul revealed, that the surviving saints (those who are alive and remain) would be changed at the time of the resurrection of the dead in Christ, they would not need to die to be made immortal. There is no harpadzo in the portion of Paul's teaching to the Corinthians that you referenced, as seen below. 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. However, the catching up is a Biblical fact. Paul mentions the way we are gathered to Christ in his letter to the Thessalonians. He says we are caught up. Both those who have been resurrected (those who sleep in Christ) and those who survive to Christ's parousia and are changed, are caught up together to be with the Lord. This is associated with Christ coming down from heaven, that is His arrival at His parousia. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Paul said that Jesus had spoken of it ("by the word of the Lord"). Jesus spoke of the resurrection at His coming. Redemption involves the resurrection, the receiving of a new body (Rom 8:23). Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Jesus said that, at His coming, He would send the angels to gather together His elect. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. At His coming, the dead in Christ shall hear His voice (a shout). A shout to raise the dead and a trumpet blast to gather us unto Christ. Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Jesus said that those who believe and remain alive shall never die. He is the resurrection. The resurrection of the just takes place at His parousia (1Thes 4:15). Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? All praise, honour and glory be unto the Lamb

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, 2Co 10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth. Pro 27:2 Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, You're at it again Babel Man. You have been shown before (prior to now) that Peter's use of the Greek word "prin" for the Hebrew "paniym" when quoting Joel 2:31 fixes its meaning to be "prior to", not as you contend, "in the face of". In the face of that truth, all that you have before (prior to now) said, as quoted above, is foolishness. Your eschatological system falls when Joel 2:31 and Acts 2:20 are properly interpreted. I hesitate using the word "interpreted" because the statements are so explicit that all that needs to be done on our part is to believe what is said. Lets Lets review for those who will read these comments. RM's eschatological model depends upon the meaning of the Hebrew word "paniym" translated "before" in Joel 2:31 to mean before in the sense of location not in the sense of time. The Hebrew word is used over 2100 times in the OT and it can refer to either before in location or before in time. To say it another way, in the face of or prior to. How do we know which is the proper understanding of the word? It just so happens that Luke records the words of Peter in Acts 2 which provides for us a divine commentary on Joel's prophecy in the Greek language. It has been said that the Greeks had a word for that. Koine Greek had a word for "prior to", it is "prin". Peter, on the day of Pentecost, quotes Joel in answer to the questions concerning what was happening. This quotation gives us a divine interpretation of the Hebrew word translated "before" in Joel 2:31. Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: It is the Greek word "prin" which is translated "before" in verse 20. "Prin" always means "prior to", never does it mean "in the face of." Therefore, Joel 2:31 says that prior to the day of the Lord there will be an identifiable cosmic sign. Babel Man, what you are saying is that your interpretation of "before" is correct and that Peter's, Holy Spirit moved, quotation of it was in error, or that Luke's, Holy Spirit moved, recording of Peter's words was in error. So you are placing your interpretation above that of God, the Holy Spirit. Let God be true and every man a liar. It is amazing the lengths of Scripture twisting that one will go to, to prop up an utterly unsupportable eschatological model. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Diaste, the temporal language used in Revelation makes it impossible for what John sees at the opening of the seals to occur simultaneously with the trumpets (except for the seventh seal which is essentially the trumpet judgements). If we follow the temporal language used in Revelation, we observe that following what John sees at the opening of the sixth seal, the 144,000 are sealed for protection against the expression of God's wrath, and explicitly against the plagues of God's wrath that are focused upon mankind's habitation. Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. The 144,000 are sealed after what John witnesses at the opening of the sixth seal, but before the trumpet blasts of the angels, whose judgements hurt the earth and the sea. Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; Rev 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. The 144,000 must be sealed before the trumpets sound. The trumpets sound after the opening of the 7th seal. The 5th seal promises God's wrath (They are told it will come after a little season). The sixth seal portends God's wrath (John sees the cosmic sign and great earthquake heralding Christ's revelation and the earth-dweller's response to Christ's revelation. They are afraid because they know that His fierce indignation is impending. The day of His wrath has arrived, but the elect must be delivered first before His wrath falls). The sealing of the 144,000 protects them from God's wrath while remaining upon the earth. The innumerable multitude (the elect) are before the throne of God having been resurrected and raptured safe from God's wrath. The seventh seal contemplates God's wrath about to fall. The blowing of the first trumpet initiates God's wrath. The seals, trumpets, and vials must be sequential. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, The seventieth week is made up of three distinct periods: The beginning of sorrows (the first ~3.5 years), Great Tribulation (the first portion of the second half of the week), and The Day of the Lord (the period in which God's wrath is poured out) makes up the remaining portion of the week. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Hazzard, you fail to recognize that there is only a second parousia, not a third coming. "Coming", when translated from the Greek word "parousia" does not refer merely to one's approach, it refers to one's arrival and continuing presence. Christ's coming (parousia) is when he comes the second time without sin unto salvation (Heb 9:28). This He does once in the future. Just as Christ's first coming was more than His conception or birth, it involved His life, ministry, vicarious death, burial, and resurrection, etc, so also will His second coming be more than His initial appearing in the clouds to reveal Himself to the world and rescue His own. It involves all the activities of the day of Christ (day of the Lord). Paul uses the somewhat technical term "parousia" when referring to the resurrection and rapture in 1Thes 4:15. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. This arrival and continuing presence happens after the unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel that Jesus calls great tribulation. Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Paul said that the Beast (the man of sin) would have to be revealed in the temple and the apostasia (a notable departure from the faith) would take place, before the parousia and our gathering together unto Him would happen on the day of Christ. 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Jesus will be in heaven until His parousia. Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. I pray you come to understand the truth that there is only a second parousia not a third. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I see the day of the Lord beginning after the great earthquake and cosmic sign that John sees when the sixth seal is opened. However, the first expression of His wrath doesn't fall until later the same day after the seventh seal is opened and the first trumpet is blown. This truth is an essential tenet of the pre-wrath model. By comparing what John sees with what Joel and Isaiah prophesied it is obvious that John was witnessing the initiation of the day of the Lord. Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Joel spoke of the cosmic sign that John saw as a sign coming prior to the day of the Lord. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Isaiah describes many of the remaining features that John witnessed at the opening of the sixth seal. Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: ... Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Note: the day of the LORD comes with wrath and fierce anger (vs 9). If you want to know when the wrath begins, understand when the day of the Lord begins. Luke records Christ's words concerning the sign which precede His coming initiating the day of the Lord Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Paul utilizes the words of Isaiah when describing the day of the Lord 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. The day of the Lord involves the expression of God's wrath from the very first day of its initiation The church (the elect) rests from persecution (trouble) on the day of Christ's revelation Christ's revelation is the start of the day of the Lord. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. The day of our rescue is the day God begins to pour out His wrath upon the unbelieving, Beast worshipers, who persecute the saints Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Thanks for the reply. Could you please provide chapter and verse for your answers. Thanks Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Great topic and discussion JoeCanada. I always took the condition given in Daniel 9:24, "anoint the most Holy" as having to do with the cleansing and consecration of the Holy of Holies in the Temple. The idea that the 2300 refers to "days" which begin in the midst of the week as opposed to evenings and mornings don't quite accord with that understanding. I'm open to being corrected if I see it in the Holy Scriptures. Another thing that I have come to understand is that when the various statements of time are given in the Scriptures, they are used as we use them. Time, times and the dividing of time is not as precise as 42 months, nor is 42 months as precise as 1260 days. Also, I believe that the starting point of the GT, the AOD, doesn't happen in the middle of the week as counted by days, but is intended to be less precise. It happens in the middle generally, or in the midst as it says in Dan 9:27. We notice that the 1260 days +3.5 days that are given to the 2 witnesses must begin before the 42 months that the Beast continues unless the 42 months refers to 42 months approximately. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Gret topic Joe, great discussion everyone, the questions that I have are: Do the scriptures say that God's wrath falls upon the unbelieving wicked upon the day of Christ's arrival, that is at His appearing and revelation? Is the Lord's vengeance equivalent to His wrath? Does God's wrath fall at the initiation of the day of the Lord? Hallelujah