RockyMidnight

The consensus is it began with Pentecost as already noted above, but you might find this explanation a little more revealing as to the real significance of why it was at Pentecost. http://considerthegospel.org/2012/05/27/the-feast-of-pentecost-another-allusion-in-the-divine-plan/ Also, this may be of interest as well as to when the New Testament actually begins. http://dowlenroad.com/?p=4027 Keep in mind as well, that Christ came on a mission to save the Jews, not the gentiles while he was alive. Matthew 15:22-24. That came after. Matthew 28:18-20. Cheers JoeChan82!

We evidently are speaking past one another. Let me rephrase a few things and give you a little background on me since we haven't corresponded before. Agreed. I have had such miscommunication before with believers who's vocations are scientifically based. As soon as Is aw you are a Mechanical Engineer, I thought to myself, “that explains it!” Just kidding! I am a mechanical engineer by degree and experience. I've also been a Christian since 1982. I linked my testimony to my profile to any who are interested. I have a problem with this particular paraphrase since it does not rightly divide verse 1:1 from verse 1:2 and 1:3. By not rightly dividing God's word they can lead one to believe something in the text that is not meant. This is my opinion, of course. Again, I agree in principle with what you are saying here. Yes, Satan loves to take the truth and distort it to create doubt and shake the faith of believers, especially new believers who are most vulnerable. That is why I chose to use the paraphrasing since again, 1 it does not alter the spirit of translated scripture and 2, it is easier to understand for anyone not yet well versed ( including unbelievers) in God's Word, at least for the scriptures I quoted. How long did it take you to start really understanding God's word when you became a believer? Engineering is the practical application of science. I have no problem with science or the literal interpretation of Bible. Some self-proclaimed experts on Biblical languages will question the well-known interpretations I believe are correct. That's their problem not mine. Colossians 1:16-17 states the Jesus holds all things together. If you say nothing is there until it's observed, you are reducing Jesus' effect on this world and the universe. I reject that idea as does the Bible and science. Read the following: Faith and Health I too have no quarrel with the practical applications of science, at least when they don't upset the balance of nature with unforeseen and unintended consequences that result from such applications. Science was at one time my bible of truth. It was in seeking through science the fallacy of the Old and New Testament that lead me to becoming born again. (May, 1994). I can verify the truth of Isaiah 55:9 and 1 Corinthians 1:25, 2:14, and 3:19. I was the poster boy for these versus! It was science and specifically Quantum Mechanics that, at the time, I thought was the best option yet to show God and scripture was all mythology, the only means man had to explain the inexplicable back then since science was more a philosophy and metaphysical then the empirical science we have today. Long story short, 10 years later with a Holy Spirit Conviction, my eyes were opened to the truth, and I saw that the science I formerly put my faith in, actually confirms God and the Old and New Testaments in a way not to dissimilar to your link to Laminin-111, or the Crucifixion Fish (SaltwaterTop Sail Catfish) and other things in nature that remind us of God imparting Himself into the things He authored, which is everything. The only thing about these that is of concern is how they can be turned into idols, so I admire them, but that's all. It is God's Word that is the foundation of Faith, not shapes and peculiarities in nature suggestive of God. Ironic how your link “paraphrases” the scripture you quoted! I have no objection to that BTW, as I know what you write that comes from your heart, and what is from your mind. What I meant by the curve ball is I love it when scientists think they have everything figured out and they come across something quite unexpected. I expect we both agree on that based on what you wrote. Theoretically, you can't run identical experiments and return different results. It just doesn't happen. But here, they've come across "ghost" particles that shouldn't be there but are, at least some of the time. The deeper scientists dig, the more questions come up. Absolutely agreed. The way I like phrasing this is that our attempt to increase knowledge of the laws of nature only serves to show how little we know and can ever know about how God designs things, for every question we answer about nature, only results in a multitude of newer questions! Instead of increasing knowledge, we are simply discovering how little we actually know, and it comes at a great price, because we know so little, yet think we know so much, the “practical application” of this incomplete knowledge has to result in unforeseen and unintended consequences and they in fact abound. We may just have a different way of expressing ourselves. Yes, as like minded as we are supposed to be, the inherent nature of individuality rejects duplicity. One of sin's “missing the mark” I think. Yes? No? Colossians 1:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV) 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [a]principalities or [b]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Anyway, my intention was a discussion on the fallacy of science and especially the theoretical aspects of QM, most of which are no longer theoretical but experimentally verifiable. Yet, there's no headlining announcements to that effect. I also see how neuroscience, if it ever discovers QM, will really make denying God and the Bible significantly more difficult. God bless you as well Saved.One.By.Grace!

Yes, I understand the TLB is not a translation, but a paraphrase, but I saw no conflict with scripture for the verses quoted. I most often use the KJV and NKJV and this is the first time I have ever quoted the TLB only because I thought the paraphrasing might better define the points I was making. I certainly chose the wrong person for that approach! Please feel free to substitute with whatever version you prefer as it does not change anything written above. As for cherry picking, I do not understand why you make that claim. The scriptures quoted support the points mentioned. And as for Gnostic origins to my reasoning, I am blown away! When you started your original post regarding God's curve ball. I thought "Great! Another believer who sees the the fallacy of science as a definitive source of truth" which the unbelieving world so blindly depends on to deny God and actual reality. I was eager to share my ideas along those lines with you thinking it would be an informative encounter! Somehow we passed each other in that regard! For the record. I am not gnostic, I agree 110% with everything you wrote, including it was my mistake to use the TLB, and I apologize for creating the impression you obviously have from post. My bad. Cheers

Good Morning GreyDestiny, Good for you that you have judged yourself honestly in this, admitting you are as much at fault as you co-workers. That is the first step. The next is to dwell on what God has to say to resolve such issues and follow His lead. FYI: https://www.openbible.info/topics/resolving_conflict Cheers!

Considering how we are already destroying this world just from the waste we produce from our economic pursuits, how the very creatures we were given dominion over and to be the caretakers of has turned into another major failure on our part, and the daily suffering we inflict on each other should be enough for any sane person to want to seek a better alternative life/afterlife. We know from God's word that Heaven will be a better place than this world. Is that not enough to know considering the alternative? He will fill us in on the details when we are with Him in Heaven. I thought this may be of interest as well since it is all scriptural based. http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/where-is-heaven Cheers

After Quantum Mechanics Copenhagen Interpretation (which is the most consistently validated theory of QM), there should be no mystery. The evidence and validity through repeated experimental attempts to disprove this interpretation, which just achieves the opposite by further reconfirming it shows the lengths science will go to to deny what is obvious. Physical experience does not exist in any shape or form physically, until the moment of observation. No particle associated with matter is real, and because of observation interference, we cannot even know matters exact nature. It is "uncertain". Further, it only appears in the moment of observation according to our expectations; are we looking to see matter or instead energy, and which of these we intend to observe is all we do observe. We can never see both at the same "time". So the real question is, if nothing material exists until an observation is made, and that "nothing material" includes everything with properties associated with matter (that means you, I, and every other human, including our brains and ability to make observations via our five physical senses) QM is demanding an original, fundamental Observer. Otherwise how can matter appear real at all? It simply can't, again, because it does not exist independently. It must first be observed to materialize. No wonder science wants to disprove this! Hebrews 11:1-3. Living Bible (TLB) What is faith? It is the confident assurance that something we want is going to happen. It is the certainty that what we hope for is waiting for us, even though we cannot see it up ahead. 2 Men of God in days of old were famous for their faith.By faith—by believing God—we know that the world and the stars—in fact, all things—were made at God’s command; and that they were all made from things that can’t be seen. [Jeremiah 33:25 Living Bible (TLB) But this is the Lord’s reply: I would no more reject my people than I would change my laws of night and day, of earth and sky. These versus tell us two critical things about this universe and all it contains, that what is made is madefrom what is not visible, and that the laws that govern night, day, Earth and sky and all that is physical are God's laws, what science calls the laws of nature and which science so diligently expends every effort to discover, like QM and the ongoing study of matter and energy at their most foundational physical levels....except, Oooops!, they don't exist at that level! How then can anything exist physically at any level? Nothing can. Now just because the QM world consists of phantom stuff associated with the properties of matter does not mean we can't see them. In other words these are NOT the things that can't be seen that make up what is made per Hebrews 11:3. We do see the QM level of reality via the instruments we invent to measure, quantify, and identify all this QM stuff. This confirms then these are NOT what 11:3 refers to as can't be seen. What then is there that is not visible, that can't be seen, yet makes up all that is made in this universe? It's the "Original" observer, for without that observation, nothing physical could be made, again, including us. Obviously, at least for us believers, that original observer Is God the Father, the Word, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Genesis 1 Living Bible (TLB) 1 When God began creating[a] the heavens and the earth, 2 the earth was[b] a shapeless, chaotic mass,* with the Spirit of God brooding over the dark vapors.* 3 Then God said, “Let there be light.” And light appeared. 4-5 And God was pleased with it and divided the light from the darkness. He called the light “daytime,” and the darkness “nighttime.” Together they formed the first day.[c] 6 And God said, “Let the vapors separate[d] to form the sky above and the oceans below.” 7-8 So God made the sky, dividing the vapor above from the water below. This all happened on the second day.[e] 9-10 Then God said, “Let the water beneath the sky be gathered into oceans so that the dry land will emerge.” And so it was. Then God named the dry land “earth,” and the water “seas.” And God was pleased. Note that the very first physical thing God made was light. Light is an absolutely key element in Physics, Classical and Quantum. It is inherent in all forms of matter and all forms of energy (the Electromagnetic Spectrum). Now, if neuroscience ever becomes aware of QM, then maybe we will get a "real theory" of everything, because at our physical level, nothing can exist for us until our own "moments" of observation which are impossible without God's observation. That Theory of Everything? It will begin like this: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Actually we can define this better by thinking in terms of consciousness instead of observation, although they are complimentary. What can exist without our consciousness? Certainly God's Consciousness. He has always existed and has always been God. When will science get it? Cheers

Excellent thread! There is no doubt in my heart this is Holy Spirit inspired. Ephesians 2:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Galatians 5; 16-26 Walking in the Spirit 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [d]adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [f]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 [g]gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Just an FYI from a recent study of DNA. The announcement-http://www.techtimes.com/articles/228798/20180530/massive-genetic-study-reveals-90-percent-of-earth-s-animals-appeared-at-the-same-time.htm the actual study details-https://phe.rockefeller.edu/news/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Stoeckle-Thaler-Final-reduced.pdf And to put this in perspective, compliments of forum member One.Opinion, https://thebookofworks.com/2018/06/09/did-a-massive-genetic-study-reveal-90-percent-of-earths-animals-appeared-at-the-same-time-no-it-didnt/

Hello MadHermit; I think you are misinterpreting what you perceive as "evangelical closed minds". Relics and idols, including the shroud are diversions to having faith, and it is faith that is foundational to knowing God's word, the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ, and the presence of the Holy Spirit. That you find the shroud so relevant to believing in Christ at this stage of your journey to faith is probably a good thing, but as was already pointed out, what happens if the shroud is hands down proven to be unrelated to Christ? Would that not throw cold water on being thrilled to the core? Relying on faith instead of man's interpretation of things cannot be undermined, if it is true faith. That can never disappoint or let you down. This is why the shroud is not relevant to Christianity; it cannot reveal anything faith has already convinced of as truth, truth of God's word. In fact all it can do is keep skeptical minds skeptical, and that will not lead to faith. Here are three scriptures that directly enable us to test claims like this shroud issue that's been going on far too long and serves to distract folks from God (the work of evil) instead of bringing people to God. Do you know of anyone who became Christian specifically because of this shroud controversy? I know of no scripture that tells us to prove God's existence with artifacts. Proverbs 3:4-6 New King James Version (NKJV) 4 And so find favor and [a]high esteem In the sight of God and man. 5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall [b]direct your paths. 1 Corinthians 2:14 New King James Version (NKJV) 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 3:19 New King James Version (NKJV) 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”; Cheers MadHermit!