Seasoned by Grace

GreyJay my brother Thank you for tour words. This topic has been a 4 year study, and absolutely love the conclusion the Holy Spirit helped me come to. Way beyond what I would have ever been able to achieve on my own. At 76 years of age, and over 40 years of study, my understanding of being predestined works beautifully for me, as it is for me in complete harmony with the rest of God's word for me. Thank you for your response. God bless you as you continue in your search of the truth - Dave

I have noticed over the years that people have a hard time believing more than one verse on a subject, and so reject the completeness of an ideal that is supported by other scriptures.. So what you end up with is churches divided because they couldn't find harmony in all the verses that supported each other or meant the same thing. I see that continually. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why does God have to predestine people to hell, because He predestined some to eternal life. The very act of rejecting God by choice is being SELF-PREDESTINED TO HELL BECAUSE IT WAS FREE-WILL OR CHOICE to take Gods offer or reject it - Free-will.. Even though God in His eternal knowledge knows the choices believers and non-believers both will make, God doesn't have to get involved in the choices because He has known the outcome for eternity. Predestined simply means - we chose GOD through Christ, and so because of His eternal knowledge of our choice, he chooses us back, or receives our choice.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If we are not predestined it's because we refused Gods offer of Christ, and so through the same free will, we chose to not be predestined and go to hell. So, both sides have complete free-will, the difference is in the choices made and Gods fore-ordained knowledge of both. I hope that helps

Thank you all for your heart felt replies .

GreyJay I like your anecdotal observations . Maybe it would help to hear why one of us here believe in predestination and how it affects our life and how we live from that perspective. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For me, none of the churches I ever attended believed in "Predestination" and yes as you shared, it can be a pretty devisive topic, which in itself is a sin, as above all else here on earth we are to "LOVE" our brothers and sisters, because that's how we are known by God and those around us. Many churches have real problems with Godly love in any form. Even though the churches I attended didn't believe in predestination in any form, In my personal bible studies and research I started finding other words synanomous to predestination which in context mean the same. I found 347 verses that speak od predestination, destined, ordained, appointed, foreknew, chosen, called, called out, God's elect, God's remnant, and the few. Because over a period of time I noticed that there were things done and taught in all the churches I attended that were not in harmony with God's word, that bothered me. The things I saw and heard continued and made me question if I had made a mistake not only in the church I was attending, but I started to question one doctrine after another, and their beliefs woven into their faith. After 4 years of study on just this one topic, it was clear to me that no matter what churches taught or believed, the doctrine of predestination was true and very clear. Absolutely no doubt or confusion on that topic for me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The affect it has on me to be predestined, causes me to continually focus on my personal growth as a representative of Christ, not only encourages me, but gives me a new piece of information to give people who I'm witnessing to. I can tell them that my being in their life could be a calling on their heart to claim Jesus as their savior, because from the beginning of time, and maybe before, God had chosen them to be His own, if they were to choose Him as their own. Personally chosen by God - the creator of all we see and even don't see. I would have loved to hear someone say that to me before I became a believer. For me that's a real heart grabber to know I was in God's heart and He wanted me to be His own. I love knowing that now, and that it gives me the courage to speak up for Him, even when faced with being criticized or persecuted. I could say more but I think this is sufficient for the time being. In Christ's heart with much love - Dave

God does allow us free will, but has always known what our choice will be - Pretty cool. He doesn't condemn anyone to hell, because in 2nd Peter 3:9, "The lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.".

I too believe in.... PREDESTINATION BEING APPOINTED FOREKNEW GOD'S ELECT GODS REMNANT GODS "FEW" All words synonamous with each other having the same meaning. Together all these words are mentioned 347 times in the bible in this "CONTEXT". Maybe God is trying to tell us something - Maybe we should listen???

ABSOLUTELY. SPOT ON

So true TAMPERED WITH . There is such a richness in this study that shows One of Gods huge plans, to bring the chosen few of the Israelite believers back into the fold as still Gods CHOSEN. ABSOLUTELY love this topic. Yes I am a gentile but absolutely know by Gods word of Gods continuing Great love for those CHOSEN FIRST.

I will do that, and I love your quote by George Santayana - SO TRUE

HOORAY I am so glad you posted this topic, as so few even know these verses exist, or anything about the context that affects us to this day. Praise God and BLESS YOU . I have studied this topic for over 4 years and I hope this topic gets deeper as there is so much information to help all of our faith grow. God's blessings on you - Dave

ReneeLW my wonderful sister in Christ. Jesus said to Peter get the behind me satan spoken in love, but sounds horrible. As we all know, love comes in many forms for the betterment of the receiver. I was never mean or called you names and was very concerned for you and still am. I'm sorry you heard anything but love and concern from me. - Dave

I realize this thread will get buried in no time like most of the threads here, but I felt a need to say this before everyone goes on doing same-0-same-o. God through Paul, teaches us especially in nearly all of 2nd Corinthians on the topic of UNITY IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, which by the way I have never heard a message on in any church in over 40 years of church going . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I know that discussing Gods word is absolutely necessary for our growth and have no problem with that, but GOD GAVE US BOUNDRIES to interact with each other, and discuss our faith and His word. God calls it LOVE!! We as Christians , GOD SAYS, are known by the love we have for one another, but somehow, at least here many times, that seems to be an idea that is not taken seriously or even considered as a part of our salvation. It doesn't seem to scare us to berate a brother or sister because we think we are already saved and so we can act any way we want and God will still love us and call us home - OH REALLY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So we beat each other up with differing verses to prove a point, but seem to forget that GOD IS NOT A GOD OF CONFUSION, and that the word of God was written in HARMONY, for HARMONY in the body, and HARMONY with every word in the bible. THERE ARE NO CONTRADICTIONS or OPPOSING VIEWS in the bible, but we seem to forget, or never consider HARMONY and UNITY, and we use Gods word like it will justify every opinion, no matter how differing opinions oppose each other, and love and unity in the Spirit are never considered because too many people get caught up in trying to prove THEIR POINT with sometimes hugely drawn out postings trying to validate their beliefs, instead of coming together in love to seek out God's truth in a spirit of love and consideration for HARMONY IN CHRIST. Did God create the bible so we could beat each other up with it and oppose each other in our ego's arrogance, and almost fanatical desire to be RIGHT. One of God's main themes in the New Testament is LOVE, Unity, kindness, patience, long suffering ( Read 1st Corinthians 13 - The love chapter). I also understand that we are to be defenders and contenders of the faith, and some even called to be apologists, but again, there are boundaries set by God how to carry out those gifts given to us by God for the BETTERMENT OF ALL MANKIND, not to be used to try and destroy a brother or sisters faithfor your own sake. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PLEASE - I HAVE A REQUEST! Consider the love you should have for each other, and the same kindness for others, that God has lavished on each of us when your posting. LOVE IS NOT AN OPTION and is directly connected to SALVAION - YOUR SALVATION, so please be kind to one another. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This has been posted with a great deal of love for all here in the body of Christ, and my prayer is it's taken as seriously as God see's it. IT'S A TERRIFYING THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD - Dave

If any of you went beyond studying just the bible and added studying church history, and bible history, from the churches beginning, you'd be shocked to find how little of the original church teaching and true salvation understanding is left. Is church really even church anymore?? I'll leave it up to each of you to go further on your own if you wish. So much of Gods truth has been twisted, eliminated or just ignored, it's scary . I didn't add any verses to support my statement because too many here like to get into a war using scriptures and I'm not into that, as God's word say's not to "wrangle" over His word. God bless you all as you continue becoming more like Christ - Dave

I LAUGHED SO HARD

I think the problem is deeper than expressed here. There are so many different doctrines of conversion, being saved, that most people never really are converted, so they keep their worldliness and same sinful nature, and they are blinded by a heart of deceit and lust. As the bible says, they are children of satan, and when they deny the truth God gives them over to a dilusional mind and a mind of a reprobate. There is only one way to receive the Spirit of Christ, and without that Spirit of Christ we are none of His - still lost and doomed to destruction. In Matthew 7>14 , Luke 13:23-24, and again in Matthew 7: 21-23. Only a FEW who say they believe will enter the kingdom. Most on earth will go to eternal damnation and destruction. Gods words not mine. Just look at what happened in Noahs day. Man's heart hasn't changed, they've just learned to pretend better. The simple answer is most places that call themselves a Church aren't even close, and are full of the walking dead, including the leadership. They simply aren't a place where God would ever be found.

I have 2 sons and 3 daughters, all raised in the church, and we lived on 3 1/2 acres out in the country on a private maple tree lined road. Very rural and beautiful. Great for kids. My oldest son, when he was old enough discovered he loved riding lawn mowers. I had 2 of them. A small one and then a much larger one that I enjoyed immensly for the large area's. He kept after me for several years wanting to use the small lawn mower. One day when he was old enough I walked up to him with no warning and handed him the key. First he was shocked and then quickly elated and excited. He immediately ran out and got to mowing with this huge smile on his face. This continued for several happy years until one day on a Saturday he came into the house and looked sad. He said he ran out of gas, got the full gas can and filled the lawn mower back up, but then couldn't find the gas cap to the lawn mower in the deep unmowed grass. I said did you pray and ask God to help you find it? His eyes got wide with excitement and said NO but I will. Ten minutes later he came into the house all excited holding the LID to the lawn mower high in the air and said, "LOOK WHAT GOD HELPED ME FIND. Then turned and ran out the door and soon that riding lawn mower was whirring again like crazy, and the yard looked beautiful. Never miss a simple teaching moment with your children. That little boy is now 43, and has his own riding lawn mower now and has never forgotten that moment, and now constantly prays to God because he learned to TRUST GOD and has never forgotten. I have chills right now remembering that moment and how it changed a little boys life. Thank you God so much.

Lots of different opinions which I expected, but I'm staying with HARSH AT TIMES ALONG WITH LOVING AT OTHER TIMES, because I still think we need that side of Jesus to keep us on the "STRAIGHT AND NARROW PATH when we stray. We all have our own way of seeing things and this just works great for me. So if you don't agree - like NEIGHBOR says- GET OVER IT . LOL

Thank you Marilyn As guy who in the past was pretty strong willed and hard headed, I have needed God to get in my face and be harsh with me like my dad was a few times. My dad loved me a lot, and wanted my best, but sometimes I needed his loving harshness to put me back in line. Even a good whipping a few times. I love the word "HARSH" because it represents to me Gods loving intensity and His personal involvement with us, not just His position, and His desire to save us from ourselves at times, and the lengths He'll go to do that. I love His personal touch. It's always perfect .

Yes, including me. I'm a sinner saved by Gods GRACE, and am I forever grateful, because I still sin, but when I ask for forgiveness, He not only forgives, but forgets. Been over 40 years now, and it's still hard to wrap my head around. I believe it, but His love for me is way beyond me to understand. His love breaks my heart in such a good way - PRAISE GOD !!!!

ABSOLUTELT!!! Praise God Your dead on. Loved every word you spoke here . Thank you so much, and God bless you - Dave

In many of our churches today, Jesus is portrayed as a loving softy, without a backbone to stand up to anyone who would defy Him and deny Him for what He stood for. Here are some verses for your consideration. 1) Matth. 7:4 "You HYPOCRITES, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye". 2) Matth. 15:7-9 " You HYPOCRITES, Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you saying, this people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me. But in vain do they worship me, TEACHING AS DOCTRINE THE IDEA'S OF MEN." 3) Matth. 23:13 " But WOE TO YOU scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in" 4) Matth. 23:15 "WOE TO YOU, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES" 5) Matth,23 : 16-17 "WOE to you BLIND GUIDES, who say, "Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obligated. YOU FOOLS and BLIND MEN; "( You can look up the rest) 6) Matth. 23 23-24 "WOE TO YOU, scribes and pharisees, HYPOCRITES! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Law: justice, mercy and faithfulness; but these are things you should have done without neglecting the others. YOU BLIND GUIDES." 7) Matth. 23:25 " WOE TO YOU, scribes and Pharisees", HYPOCRITES" 8) Matth. 23: 27-28 " WOE TO YOU, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES ! For you are like WHITE WASHED TOMBS which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside THEY ARE FULL OF DEAD MES'S BONES. and HYPOCRISY AND LAWLESSNESS". 9) Matth. 23 :29 "woe to you, SCRIBES AND Pharisees" 10) Matth. 23:33 "YOU SERPENTS, BROOD OF VIPERS, how shall you escape the SENTENCE OF HELL? 11) Mark 12: 38-40 "BEWARE OF THE SCRIBES who like to walk around in long robes, and like respectful greetings in the market place, and chief seats in the synagogue, and places of honor at banquets, who devour widows houses and for appearance sake offer long prayers: these will RECEIVE GREATER CONDEMNATION". 12) Luke 11:39 "YOU FOOLISH ONES, 13 Luke 11:43 "WOE TU YO Pharisees! For you love the front seats in the synagogues, and the respectful greetings in the market place.' WOE TO YOU! fOR YOU ARE LIKE CONCEALED TOMBS, and the people walk over them are unaware of it" ( They are like nothing). 14) Luke 11:52 "WOE TO YOU LAWYERS! For you have taken away the key of knowledge: you did not enter in yourselves (to the Kingdom), and those who were entering YOU HINDERED'. 15) Luke 12:1 "BEWARE OF THE LEAVEN OF THE OF THE PHARISEES, which is HYPOCRICY". 16) John 8:44 " YOU ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL, and you want to do the desires of your father" 17) John 8:49 "I do not have a demon: but I honor my Father, and YOU DISHONOR ME." 18) John 8:55 "and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him: and if I say I do know that I do not know Him. I SHALL BE A LIAR LIKE YOU, but I di know Him, and keep His word". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you still think Jesus is an all loving softy?? Or that people who speak like this out of love for their brothers and sisters, are out of line and should be censored and condemned for following Jesus example of speaking another language of love that gets the attention of those out of line, for their eternal salvation? Have we missed the part about intervention in love, or has it just been purposely untaught because leaders want to present the Jesus THAT IS COMFORTABLE AND COZY EVEN WHE WE SIN. OH... HE WON'T REALLY MIND BECAUSE HE LOVES ME...........GOOD LUCK WITH THAT . Posted in Jesus love...The one that's posted here - Dave

Hi there again my brother NEIGHBOR . My opinion here on this topic is a bit different than yours, as God didn't make a one concience fits all for the entire human race. Here I think Paul disagrees with you in Acts 15: 20 and 29, Paul warns not to eat meat sacrificed to idols, or things strangled. Some have problems of conscience with such things, and so where something originates is a huge deal in their faith to make proper choices. Also the origin of our faith is important when we are witnessing to someone, because the origin of what others believe may be anti-Christian. I am a Sabbath keeper, so I wanted to know the origin of what I was called to, so I could not only justify it for myself in faith, but for those who ask about why I honor the Sabbath. These are just a few reasons to know where things originate and why it's important to know them. I think it would be good for you to familiarize yourself with scripture more and then revisit your statements here. God bless you as you continue your walk of faith - Dave

Wayne my dear Christian brother in Christ - maybe, Do you know how many times i have heard the same words by people who have no clue what real Christianity is. I am 76 years old and have studied the bible over 40 years and my faith has been turned upside down several times by God himself through the truth of his word as I continued in my studies and growth. For me my changes came not because what someone said to me, or the pastors messages, or because of what I wanted to believe, but because i saw to much and heard to much that wasn't in harmony with Gods word. If you think what you believe in is true Christianity, then like many others you have been fooled and are a victim of false doctrines that sadly will destroy you and all those like you and you'll spend eternity in HELL. I hear in just a few of your words of yours an erogance and ego that won't save you. It will send you straight to HELL along with all those who believe what you do. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Matthew 7:14 Jesus talks about the "FEW: who He will take to heaven. If that's not enough for you read Luke 13: 23-24. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a Christianity that has disappeared over time that was God's original intention for all mankind, but it's still there in the bible, but Satan has blinded a majority of people including those who call themselves Christians, and come here like you do and have the audasity to hide behind your computor to straight up call me a liar. You have no respect here for me or anyone else that talks like one of satans children, instead of speaking to me in kindness and love. The bible says," We are known by the love we have for one another", and brother if you think you speak to me in love-your completely lost and bound for hell. With a repulsive attitude like yours, God will have no place for you in heaven unless your heart becomes soft with love and deep gratitude for everyone here who loves you in spite of yourself Wake up my brother, because HELL is calling, and your well on your way to meeting the godless king of this world..

Now that was a very Godly and receptive response BROTHER.. Thank you!!! It would be wonderful to hear many more of those kind of responses to those needing love and comfort here when they are struggling with life's issues or faith issues. I think you would be a wonderful encourager here with a changed heart. Many of God's blessings to you, as we all here travel this same narrow dusty path to eternal life.

Dear brother in Christ. Since I have been here I have read more and more of your posts, in many of the threads here on many different topics, and frankly this attitude of "I quote you", >Get over it<, seems to be your common theme as well as being blatenly "LEGALISTIC and just plain hurtful, even downright "MEAN-SPIRITED" to people here hurting, asking question, or searching for answers for growth in their faith. For me you are the fly in the ointment. Believe me brother, this is no attack, but it is a WAKE-UP call or mini INTERVENTION to get to your heart. Somehow for some reason, it seems you think being critical and all knowing at the expense of those here needing kindness and comfort, has become your theme and maybe even your agenda to be wiser and show your INDIGNATION at those you see as ignorant at the simplist of faith idea's. I'm sad for you, for you have missed Gods greatest gift to all of us including you, to love at all costs in compassion, empathy and wonderful godly kindness. A few of your posts you got it right, but in the overall majority your input was BRUTAL many times. Don't ask me for examples. You can go back and read all your posts for yourself and see for yourself. If you get angry at this post and attack me to protect yourself then we all know where you are in your need to grow in love. If you thank me and are kind about it, I know your open and willing to change, not for me but the others here who are constantly hearing your put downs and demeaning comments. Come on brother ...it's time to repent, and let God use you here in His love. Posted in Gods love and my own love for you - Dave