lftc

For the brothers and sisters that love the KJV: 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

6 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

Dear brother johnthebaptist, As you have quoted my response to your original post twice, I assume that you are needing some reponse from me. I thought I was looking at the Bible in my response. My apologies if I did not make that clear. I do appreciate your concern for the destiny of my eternal existence. I take that as a sign of your love. Thank you.

Allow me to wonder at Eve. Humor me by putting aside your worries about everything that permeates these forums. [redacted] Since I see that the views of this keep going up, I will explain why the body of the article has been redacted. This is intended for the readers who are wondering what happened. Most of what I have posted in other topics is of an analytical nature. But I noticed that other people seemed to enjoy things that not related to deep analysis. SO I posted a piece exploring what could have been the things that Eve felt as she went through the events as described in Genesis. Being a person very deeply concerned with the accuracy of scripture, what was posted was very careful to stay within the realm of what could have happened in light of the exact nature of what was recorded. I knew that the Heresy Hunters prowl these forums seeking those whom they may disrespect, so I added that line at the top of this about putting aside your worries. No luck. As you can see in the replies below, the negative comments began to arrive. On these forums, you expect those as some people generally read things looking for what they don't like and looking for the opportunity to correct. I started by trying to point out the discrepancies in their criticisms. But that did not feel right to me, I don't like trying to use someone's own words to show where they contradict themselves in the same post. And especially in a post that was not intended as exegesis but rather as an expolration of what it may have been like to live through those events. But at the same time, it was offensive to have these completely incorrect and absurd statements disrespecting the story. Seeing no way to gracefully address the issue, I pulled the story. The direction headed was not useful except to illustrate the environment in these forums.

Yes, I have watched people die. If you live long enough in this world, you will see it. In your situation, I am so glad that you got to say the hard words that you love her. Hard because of what that means: you forgive her. But you know what it means and so does she. I hope that the spark of love and forgiveness you have grows to be a roaring flame, and lights your sister. There were so many things that your mother did to you and didn't do for you. As the person you qouted observed, we all have deep guilt over the things we know we failed at. I'm sure your mother had those, even if she never confessed it. But your act of love, to say I Love You to a mother dying, is the true beauty that can be seen in this world. You set all those things aside, for you and for her. Jesus, in that moment. May God touch you now to know his Love. All of us. Me too.

Good reminder, Coliseum. And it is important to remember that the model of Forgiveness is the LORD himself, who has completely removed our sins. We all certainly want that type of forgiveness, but many today seek to reimpose lesser penalties, saying the sin remains and must be punished in some way. I forgive you dear spouse for not doing the dishes, but if it happens again, I will take it as a clear indication that you do not truly love me. Coliseum, Is your screen name intentional, where the Christians were thrown to the Lions by the government of their day? Truly a difficult feat of forgiveness, to not wish that Nero be forced to face the consequences of the Mosaic Law for convicting yourself according to the Laws of Rome and sentencing yourself to death in the fashion presrcibed by the Roman Law. It may be dificult to wish him well, as you watch the Lion work its way through the huddle of Christians, your precious beloved brothers and sisters and children. As the teeth of the Lion closed around your throat and you vainly struggled to pry his jaws open, you may have a hard time remembering to forgive before it is too late. I don't say that to negate the story told by Rev Wurmbrand, who I greatly revere. I say that to try to bring home to the readers here that this goes beyond the wonderful concept to apply as you have to lay aside the failure of your spouse to do their part of cleaning the house. In the real world, the situations can get beyond extreme. These real life concepts are terribly difficult, yet Jesus in the sermon on the mount tied my forgiveness to that action of forgiving others. He was speaking to several people sitting on the mount that later faced death in the Roman Justice system, most of whom we do not know the outcome - did they fail for one second prior to running out of air (big cats usually kill by suffocation)? I love the stories like the one in the original post. True stories of real people really loving others. I believe there are numerous stories every day that we will never know until history is reviewed in the presence of the Christ. Did the oppressed forgivers do it perfectly? Probably not. Did they muster the strength to show real love for a few moments? Yes, praise Jesus. I hope to have the right stength at the right time.

I think what I consider to be vile is immaterial. What does the LORD consider to be vile would be more important. Also important would be what I am supposed to do with that once I spend my time considering the vile things of this earth. Here is a common set of definitions to help one define what can be vile: https://www.thefreedictionary.com/vile. Note that this site gives definitions from several other dictionaries, which is educational for all the defintion arguments on this forum. Words can mean a broad range of concepts. Note that the first definition from the Collins Dictionary uses the word "abomination". Note that the last definition ftom the Collins Dictionary uses the word "paltry" which many do not understand now as it is a word more commonly used in the era of the original King James Version. But I think it is safe to say that brother JohnTheBaptist intends the "abomination" sense. One can simply look that up to see numerous references where the LORD says that things are an abomination to him. - there are 142 uses of the word "abomination" in the KJV - there are 8 in the NIV One reference that is pertinent to forum life is Proverbs 6:16-19 In KJV: These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:.... and he that soweth discord among brethren. Now in NIV: There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him:... and a person who stirs up conflict in the community. But how can I even post that without sowing discord? And how can I dare to post a scripture that seems to say that sowing discord is as bad as abortion? If you knew me (which you never will on this earth), you would know that I FEEL strongly that abortion is terrible, while I have mild negative feelings about discord. But I think I am supposed to try to use scripture to understand how the LORD feels about things, if that is possible. Leaving that branch topic aside, let me point out that a very common use of "abomination" in scripture refers to idolatry. Which is hard to understand in our modern world where Satan cleverly hides inside intellectualism. To define idolatry in terms of intellectualism, I think it is safe to say that idolatry is the intellectual process of looking for meaning, purpose, and mercy in anything other than the LORD, God Most High, Jesus the Christ. Which I didn't realize I did not turn to him until the meaning and purpose of life is stripped away. Difficult. I think I qualify as vile.

Thank you brother JohnTheBaptist. In the passage you quoted from Luke Jesus also says to sell everything and give it to the poor. Please do not take that as a contrary point, as I greatly respect your goal of walking with the Lord Jesus, and that inital list Jesus said to the rich man was indeed a subset of the first 10 commandments. Just illustrating how one person chooses some verses to pay close attention to and another may see more or a different focus. Peace to you.

Fun screen name, johnthebaptist. I truly applaud you for resisting the temptation to sin. And for your concern about other people. Do you think it is possible that the people to whom you refer may have a different definition of sin than that with which you evaulate your own performance?

I suspect that your situation has caused a lot of accusations of moral failure. There are many who are full of condemnation for what they consider to be sins, while the things they do that clearly are listed as sins are never even considered. Since the New Covenent is grace, most ignore the Law of Moses, even though Jesus said that whoever teaches against that Law is the least in the kingdom of heaven. And he said to not try to help others get the specks out of their eyes while the log remains in yours. Most blindly believe that their respective country's laws reflect the laws of God - while most systems of Law are directly called evil by the law of God. (obey God rather than man anyone?). The church in most of the world handed the control of marriage over to the civil government, walking right into the trap the Satan set, which has now tripped with dire consequences in the belief systems of most christians. So people attack you in your situation, doubting your standing with God based on what they infer about your situation and adjudicating you guilty based on a system of law they invented. They say they are all about Grace, but their prisons are filled to overflowing with people that would not be guilty under the Law of Moses. How nice to be happy about Grace and join the throng demanding justice for others. Compartmentalization is a very helpful narcotic. I suspect that already many of the people on this forum have selected the option to have the system filter out my posts. Fine. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. I hope God's Mercy will make so I don't post here for too long. Besides, I fully know that I am nothing. Quite lierally just one among the many billions that have lived or are living now. My thoughts are not original, many think this way but are quite effectively systematically silenced. I only post as I feel led by the Spirit. I would prefer to slip from this realm without facing the hordes of hate. But not a choice I get to make. All that to explain why I posted here after quoting your post, which will immediately make more ignore me as they have found what they were looking for: a reason to disregard. But after thinking it through, I decided that I, for one, will not condemn you, not even by withholding the beloved "Like" reaction (excuse the sarcasm).

My Brother in Suffering, I hesitate to call you that as it is such a difficult place to be and each person's suffering is searingly unique to them. While I have not had a spouse with Alzheimers, I have had 2 close family members die of it. It was easy to see that it is hardest on the spouse. The person that you love intensely, slowly becoming someone completely different. As with all suffering there are no words that even come close to conveying the agony of each passing minute. I know all too well and wish I did not. I think Jesus knows the pain. He quoted Psalm 22 when hanging on the cross. Which as I write this I went to read, and reading it thinking of your pain made me unable to see the screen as the tears flood my eyes. My head now hurts and the tears are salty in my mouth. I don't know you, but I know pain. Jesus knows pain. David knows pain. Paul knew pain and wrote in 2 Cor 1 that he was pressed far beyond his ability to endure, so that he despaired of life itself. A good verse to remind the insensitive of when they say that crap about God won't give you more than you can handle. I guess if "handle" means get through without turning to Satan, then it is true. But it is way beyond the ability to endure. I can't give you advice you don't already know. I went through an earlier "pressing" similar to yours many years ago. People do not realize that their inept theology has horrible consequences in the real world, resulting in situations like the false prophet saying your wife has a demon. If it was true, just kick it out. But it is not and the person was not speaking for God. If they were speaking for God, I believe they would sit next to you and sob over the massive pain. Jesus Wept. Shortest verse in the Bible, but tremendous depth. I wish I was close enough to just come over and sit with you as there is nothing else I could do. I have been "pressed beyond" for a few years now (again), not as long as you, but I wish it was over with every fiber of my being. This one won't be over until the end . I have come to sense a bit of accomplishment at the end of most days - one day closer to the end. I hope you feel that too. I have probably said too much and now I really can't see the screen. God have mercy, please have mercy on us.

Excellent accomplishment on completeing school! I wish we were all close to you to help.

For the reader not interested in this branch topic about enforcement, please skip this. SimpleJeff: You are mistaken. Rather than asking about understanding, you proceed immediately to assuming that I lack the intellect to observe what you deem to be obvious but have not articulated. In the other post, I asked you to do something in response to your attack style post. You wait a day and respond with another attack style post to that topic and this in the same minute. I strive to not consider your ability to understand to be less than mine, yet you immediately jump to that conclusion, as if you have found a failure in my logic. Please be civil. Your question in the other topic was not well formed. My response was that there are plenty of explicit requirements in the Law that demand that the Law is enforced. Given your use of hebrewish words, I assumed that you considered yourself to be knowledgable in the Law, so rather than contradicting you, I thought the best course was to get you to reconsider based on the books of the Law themselves. Your point is that you want the Law to be without "speed bumps, tickets" etc as you stated in the other topic. Which I think is clear enough that you think that the Law did not provide for Law Enforcement. Avoiding sarcasm, it certainly does. Again, rather than list the points, I will ask that you list the points to which I refer, then explain why they are not enforcement. I think that is fair as you are one familiar with the Law. Sidestepping: - if laws requiring enforcement do not exist then I am sidestepping - if the law does include requirements for enforcement then I am not, and I will not spend time pursuing that branch topic here. As to your attack on this topic - God is not subject to the Law. He most certainly required enforcement of the Law in the Law. Meaning that those who live by the law also must live by the rules about enforcement. But He is God, and he will have Mercy on who he will have Mercy. And then he did. His Mercy is amplified by the life and death contrast. I need his mercy.

I am not sure which point I missed in your estimation. I'll leave the rest of you statement for evaulation by the readers.

We are involved in this forum because we believe something about God and the Bible. Some are here to present their perspectives - fulfilling that urge we all have to give voice to the things we have observed, some are here to have daily remote fellowship in the modern internet sense, some are here seeking an answer to a simple question about what a particular verse means, some are here looking for more things to despise in people of faith, some are here as it is an great place to be aggressive without having to face the victim of aggression over supper, some are here as they desparately need to connect with a meaning of life that is deeper than the meaningless drivel that fills everyday life. I'm sure I left some groups out, but you get the idea. In this topic I am looking at the Mercy of God as seen in the Old Testament. God was present in the Garden, but until Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, until they believed the enemy and pursued the understanding of Right and Wrong, they did not need Mercy. But after that point, they were no longer in the direct presence of God because on that day they died, apparently in some sense they were separated from the direct presence of God. I would use more precise language here, but I am sure that the meanings of the words used would vary in the group on this forum, so I am trying to simply convey the concept that in some significant way, separation from God occured and God's Mercy was not directly observable by humans. But right and wrong are certainly observable, being possibly the dominant trait of human history. One group of people forcefully imposes their perspective on another, all the time, everywhere on earth, throughout history. Always, the justification is that the other group is wrong and must be stopped. Naturally, if there is a higher spiritual realm, there are voices from that realm, influencing the thoughts of humans. Somewhere in the maelstrom of hatred, God chooses to bring about a series of events that allow him to introduce to a small group of humans a view of right and wrong that is very specific. He made sure this group would record the important events that led up to that and the precise details of what he communicated to them. He has his reasons. Then for several hundred years, he made sure that specific events were recorded as he waited for the a subgroup of the small group to start really trying to pay attention to the view of right and wrong that he had given them. So far my crazy summary here has shown no mercy. But it is against this backdrop that one begins to see the Mercy of God. Consider these things, but this is not nearly a complete list: God chose Moses, a murderer, to communicate the rules that say murderers must be killed. God said that for any that fail to obey the whole law, their families would be cursed for generations. But, as the recorded histories indicate, the Israelites never kept all the laws, yet we see, especially in Judges, God delivering them again and again. We see in the histories of David, compared against the Law, that he broke the Law in many ways. I know people will point to the passage that says he only sinned in the matter of Uriah (adultery, murder, severe abuse of authority, etc), but David said "my sins outnumber the hairs of my head" and a careful look at the law shows some of those. Such as his entering the Tabernacle being a descendent of a Moabite. Or his eating the ShowBread, a violation of Law to be punished by death. How to reconcile that passage about "only sinned in the matter..." with the other statements of scripture is possible, but is not the subject of this topic. What is on topic is that we see God having mercy on David. As God carefully recorded. We see it over and over in the Prophets: God promising severe or complete destruction of people because of their sin. Usually the sin identified is the main sin - turning to something or someone other than the LORD for meaning, sustenance, mercy. But in many of these passages, after a few "chapters" of judgement, God changes his message and says he won't do it. And not just about Israel. This theme is recurrent enough, that these harsh passages in the prophets have actually become encouraging for me, although the promised judgement remains distrubing, yet alluring - like Revelation. Who could possibly read Hosea and not see mercy. God says "Hey Hosea, go marry a sex addict". I am purposely using non-Ezekiel language. Hosea says "OK" !!!!!!!! Gomer the sex symbol loves being loved and repents of her prostitution. Then repents of her marriage and returns to sex life. Interspersed is the word of the LORD about how bad the Israelites and Judah are. God tells Hosea to go pay any price to get her back again, while fully engaged in her addiction. Here Hosea goes into several chapters of how bad the are. BUT IT ENDS WITH THIS: 4 “I will heal their waywardness and love them freely, for my anger has turned away from them. 5 I will be like the dew to Israel; he will blossom like a lily. Like a cedar of Lebanon he will send down his roots; 6 his young shoots will grow. His splendor will be like an olive tree, his fragrance like a cedar of Lebanon. 7 People will dwell again in his shade; they will flourish like the grain, they will blossom like the vine— Israel’s fame will be like the wine of Lebanon. 8 Ephraim, what more have I[c] to do with idols? I will answer him and care for him. I am like a flourishing juniper; your fruitfulness comes from me.” 9 Who is wise? Let them realize these things. Who is discerning? Let them understand. The ways of the Lord are right; the righteous walk in them, but the rebellious stumble in them. --------------- What are the ways the LORD. Seems to me that it is quite clear. The LORD says: Don't be bad, but when you fail I will heal your waywardness. In order to be clear he made Hosea go redeem the woman wildly giving herself to other sex relations, multiple times. Then ends with redemption. This is the Ways of the LORD and they are Right. Not Wrong. The Righteous walk in them. The rebellious stumble. As I said, these examples are a brief representation. Find some more. These examples are before the full story had progressed to the point of the subgroup striving with great intensity to live by the rules of Right and Wrong. But when that subgroup had developed the perfect environment for demonstrating Mercy, God himself became a man, fulfilled the obligations of the Law given to that murderer Moses by dying in our place, bringing the whole story back to unity. Now a person just has to get undead, free from that inheritance we have from our precious mother Eve (and I do mean precious, there are some amazing things to consider with her, I long to meet her soon). One becomes undead by believing God undoing that original believing the enemy. This is now possible because the right and wrong has all been REMOVED, not covered, by Jesus. If you can believe it, this is Love. The Mercy of God. But there are all the words that can read like damnation and judgement in the New Testament. That is a topic for another day. All there other ways you all see God's mercy in the Old Testament? Commands of the Law that are violated but God does not enforce the Law?

Thanks MissMuffet. I see from all you other posts that you are a real blessing to many. So having the opinion of a such a person of blessing is important.

I take it that you mean the accusers are being self-righteous? The Original Post was about what laws we could see being broken in the account of the woman caught in adultery. I don't know of a Law in the Mosaic Law about self-righteousness working from my memory. Do you know of one? You could derive it from the Law that says to Love your neighbor as yourself, and I wouldn't be surprised if their are several rabbinical writings that derive that. But I am just guessing. Thanks

I see your point and the perspective of those posting to this topic. And it is true. WHEN we finally get past death's door we Hope for what is to come (as Paul addresses in 2 COr 3 and 4). And Paul certainly understands those in severe suffering, which, Thank God, most have not the least idea what it is like. Paul says that he was pressed far beyond his ability to endure so that he despaired of life itself. Because eternity awaits, the suffering soul may have strength to face the next minute, but how incredibly difficult each minute can be. Be very cautious with quick advice to one in suffering. We have brothers and sisters around the world for whom each minute is beyond what they can endure. They wonder how they can have so much pain, be it physical, emotional or spiritual, and still be alive. Like Paul, they despair of life itself. Remember them, in the prisons of every country, in the hospitals, living in the slums with no hope, living in the mansions with no hope, sitting in the pews, or on the dirt floors. In prisons of the mind because of the things others have done to them. In prisons of the mind because of the things they have done to others. Aware that most of the people around them would not do a thing to help them, in other words despised and ignored, which is the opposite of love. Just yesterday I was walking through an area, and a elderly man was standing in the door of his house. We spoke in his language (as best I could), he mentioned something about his father, then burst out sobbing. The best I could determine, his father had died some years ago, and the man was filled with grief that he had not been a good son. And now it was too late. Years of pain, no reconciliation ever possible on this earth. I put my hand on his arm, and waited with him while the waves of pain passed. I said a few things, but I know what helped for that brief moment was someone caring, touching him. Is the pain gone? No. It will never go. But Hope can grow anyway. The two do not exclude each other. Do I want him to suffer because he was a bad son? Not in the least, and neither does God. Real Love makes him know that. So yes, eternity is our only hope. And sharing in other's suffering is not entertaining, it is real. Sorry if I took this off topic a little. I think the OP was trying to deal with the apologetic issue of the Problem of Pain as CS Lewis titled his book on the subject. If you read that book, be sure to read what I consider to be its sequel A Grief Observed which he wrote after his wife died. Not a fun read, but he gets to a better place.

I see what you are saying, that certain words carry nuanced meanings. THe nuances of meaning may be different in the mind of the hearer than intended by the speaker. In the case of the word Law, you are concerned that people will associate the Law of Moses with other systems of Law that exist, such as the recently enacted law in India that WILL result in persecution of Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Jews, etc. I agree that such an mistaken association is possible. Hopefully someone reading this topic will see your post and not make that association. Your point, I believe, is to protect the precious nature of the rules and penalties contained in books 2-5 of the scriptures. As to the use of the Hebrew word in that passage about Abraham from Genesis, I think we all wish we could get more information from that era. But the scriptures have very little to say, and when we go to the outside sources for information about that era it gets really strange. Thanks again

It is I that needs apologize to you. I did not choose my words carefully. By "room to post" I meant emotional space for people to post without fear that their thoughts will be belittled. One of our brothers had posted something, and your post following was forcefully railing against certain types of posts. I was concerned that the brother would be offended and would stop considering the issue. There are times when it is called for: to be forceful. In this topic I am trying to ensure that all voices can be heard and a gentle conversation can occur. Post more, please!

Thank you, nzKev. I appreciate you posting Heb 7. The entire book of Hevrews has forceful bearing on this subject and must be taken in context. The foundation that the writer lays in the first chapters must be held in mind as you read the later chapters. In fact, there are many verses in Hebrews, that when taken by themselves appear to say the opposite of what they mean if you take the context of the first chapters. But even then, if the reader's mindset is such that they have not considered the conflict in the words of Jesus worth resolving, or the conflict in the words of Paul, then they will not have arrived at a place of understanding and could try to make some of the early statements in Hebrews fit the understanding they have arrived at already. That is why I tend to not post too many texts as the context is critical and the context is the whole scripture. Jesus stated that he is the way, he also said your righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees and the Law is still intact. These opposing statements must be resolved, at least for the person who is pursuing Law as their salvation or the proof of their salvation. Remember that the Old Covenant was in force until Jesus fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law on the cross. He did not abolish the Law, he fulfilled the requirements of the Law. He, the perfect sacrifice, died, enabling God to bring true justice to all mankind. Justice demands the penalty for sin, death. It has been fulfilled, justice is complete. Jesus, in the sermon on the mount, is quite accurately saying that if you want to please God by using the Law, the only way is to obey the whole thing. Hebrews goes on to give us powerful examples of how we actually can please God, just like Abraham and a host of others: Faith. Faith is word that is terribly abused. Hebrews 11 gives a good dictionary definition (the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen). But what things? It then shows us what things, as also the rest of the new testament, especially the miracles of Jesus also show us. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as rightteousness. We are assured by Paul that it is our faith that saves us. Jesus made this the founding statement of his church: Peter says "You are the Christ" Jesus says, on this Rock I will build my church. I agree that understanding that perfect Love would enable you to not transgress. But again, how is that going for you with keeping the law, either in the Mosaic Law or Jesus's expansion of it on the Mount? I do pretty good on some things, but fail completely on others. I don't wear the tassels on my clothing. I have a hard time forgiving the people that have done truly horrible things to the ones I love. I don't really love God as Love is defined in 1Cor13, I am not patient with him, I am constantly griping at him: How long will you delay? Why have these things happened?

Keep posting gentle carefully composed and deeply researched truth.

Well written clarification! Thanks.

The most common understanding of the Torah is the first 5 books of the Hebrew and Christian scriptures. Which is also commonly referred to as the Law of Moses, although many people tend to view that as starting in Exodus. If you mean some other definition, please explain. The books Exodus through Deuteronomy certainly include penalty. I will leave you to read it and see for yourself as it is very important to read it. And there are numerous instances of penalty, too many to post. The instances of penalty are more common in Leviticus and going to the end. Thanks!

Thank you for bringing into perspective that the translation issue is of significance. It can be a tricky one, given that there are substantial issues with language in general. For example, language is a method we use to try to transfer a concept from our mind to another human person's mind. The words we choose to use may or may not be effective for transferring the concept. I try to carefully choose words that move a concept across, but I don't know if the person I want to communicate with has the same understanding of the words I want to use. I have learned pieces of a few languages and have conversational skills in some. One begins to see how various languages use words in various ways, not all the same in each case. I read recently how some languages don't even use words per se, the basic building block is closer to what we think of in English as sentences. All that to say that the understanding of the meaning of word is very important, as you allude to. But it also is not a trivial issue and requires a cautious approach. If I can restate your post: The Law (using the common meaning as indicated in all these posts) is the way that God indicated what he wants people to do. Which I take as an implication then, that you view the 10 Commandments as integral to the rest of the commandments. Is that a reasonable thing to say?