lftc

If you find one, let me know. I wrote a short article that describes how it can feel to be in a truly bad place. I can PM you the link if you're interested.

Hello Dave, I usually am not online this late. But I saw your reply. The interesting thing is I saw your full reply and then when I hit the quote it switched to your edited reply. I did not see any issue with the full reply. In your full reply you mentioned that you try to work through the issues in private as you have caused so much hurt in others. You also mentioned that you wondered if there had been someone to take you in when your life fell apart maybe that would have changed things. I certainly don't know the answer to that and I don't think it makes any difference. Where ever you go, it will start from here. Which feels like a really bad situation. The Gospel as described by Paul, and what I believe l as I tag along with Paul, Is that your sins were forgiven at the cross. People are afraid of that gospel because it seems to leave the door open to sin. You have the opportunity to know better than many people, so I can ask you: How has it gone with the door being shut? The point is that law is not effective at stopping people from sinning, they just put on their thinking hats and write their sins out of the law. You don't have that luxury. Stop raging at those who look good compared to you. The least sin is worthy of eternal death. I believe with every part of my being at this minute that Jesus LOVES you. Not the you that you could have been. He loves you right now. Reach out for him in your spirit, rage at the lie that says you are beyond hope. Then go out and find the people that will love you. People that know the situation and will help you when you go off again. I would physically help, but I fear that a great physical distance is between. Keep in mind who Jesus spent time with while he physically walked the earth. People like you and me. He was harsh with the really polished people. He has people serving him walking around and seeing who they can be Jesus to. You will become one of them. You can PM me when you need to rant.

I understand. That you had more than three witnesses is important and that you were satisfied that they were investigated is important. They saw him take merchadise from the house and that is all that is needed. I'm sure you did the best you could arriving at the correct verdict. And I certainly would not second guess that ever. (as indicated earlier, that is outside my purview). I am just exploring it for the sake of the discussion. I completely would not want you to feel guilty about the case. You left unanswered the question about the vast difference between the penalty according to God vs the penalty according to the state of Texas. Now that you mentioned what kind of things he took, I see that according to the Law of Moses he would not be required to even pay back 7 fold, probably repay the merchandise plus 20 percent. But do not feel that you need to address that. You were under duress from Texas to perform the duties they assigned to you. If you failed to comply with their directives you would face a series of penalties on top of that, quite severe. Such is the way of the world. So you did the best you could in that situation. I on the other hand, I have had to add my role in a similar court case to the list of things God has forgiven. And I convicted the man while I was a christian, but before I had grasped the significance of the Law of Moses. Thank you, for being patient while we discuss this. I realize it is a delicate topic. I am glad to have an intelligent person like you to discuss it with me.

Thank you, again. It is very meaningful to me that we can have this conversation peacefully. I certainly agree that anyone who thinks sin is OK has a significant problem. God says sin is worthy of death. That actually makes Paul's list in Galatians even more significant. He goes further and says that those who LIVE BY factions WILL NOT INHERIT the kingdom of God. While he writes a letter about his side of a faction. And then in 1 Cor 11 he even says that factions have a benefit in exposing the those who are not genuine. I realize that this makes a difficult subject. I don't want to keep pushing you on it. So allow me to say that I see the delimma this creates and understand why some groups derive the fall from salvation approach to reconcile Paul's list with Jesus paid for all sins. I understand. Although I see a different approach. God bless you, as you walk the road of sin, repentence, forgiveness and salvation. I am very confident in our Lord's ability to save us, as are you. God have mercy.

Thank you, again, for discussing this in a tone of brotherhood. I believe that Jesus, the Christ, is the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father in any other way than through him. I am confident that you also believe that. I will look at 1 Cor 11 for understanding, and then discuss Galatians, as the context of Galatians is pertinent to the list Paul gave regardless of the relationship to the 1 Cor 11 passage. I can see where it is reasonable to assume that the factions mentioned in 1 Cor 11 are related only to the Lord's supper. In can be implied. Although it can also be read differently, in that they are wider factions than just over who is getting drunk at the Lord's Supper. Here is the text, with all the publisher inserted text divisions and headings removed: ... Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God. But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not. ... You can see that where one decides that Paul stops talking about womens hair and starts talking about divisions can affect the decision one must make about the nature of the factions. If the phrase "If anyone is inclined to be contentious" is related to hair, then more credence can be assigned to the view that the factions are related to the Lord's supper. However, if the "contentious" phrase is related to the following discussion about coming together, it becomes more clear that the factions that exist when " coming together as a church" are the first issue to be adressed while the second is selfishness shown while eating the Lord's supper. But as I mentioned already, I can see where some would view the factions as being those who want to eat and drink before others get there vs those who come later and have nothing to eat. I must note that one of the factions in the Lord's supper as described by Paul is drunk. Which is also in the Galatians list. Galatians is about Paul telling the Galatians to avoid the faction of the Hebrew Law Christians and hold on to the Gospel he taught them. The letter is about those factions. I personally do not consider that Paul accidently described the Galatians situation in his list of WORKS of the flesh. He purposely includes factions in the list in his letter about factions. He differentiates between those who LIVE BY the works of the flesh, vs those who LIVE BY the Spirit. Because the answer lies there. Just my opinion. I am nothing, quite literally. For those who choose belief based on the character of the one proposing a belief, you'd best avoid me. My character is not worth it. Not quite as bad as Solomon, but way too bad.

DustyRoad, thank you for sharing that difficult experience. It can be a great burden when the decision about Good and Evil is forced on us. And it is often forced on us. I have been through very similar experiences as the USA is not the only law system that uses jury trials as an attempt to find truth in matters of crime and punishment. And I now wonder about the people whose lives I affected. I ask for your grace as I ask a few questions: Did you change your decision to guilt as you were convinced by the investigation of three witnesses? Was there even any investigation of the witnesses? Would those witnesses have been so sure if they were facing life in prison if their testimony was found false? How do you reconcile sending a man to prison for the rest of his life with God's law that says a thief is to pay back seven times what he stole? Which law is higher? I know that is a difficult question, so I truly ask wondering what your perspective may be. My experience finding someone guilty causes me ask myself even harder questions.

Very carefully thought out answer to my questions. I agree that context of compassion is truly a differentiator in how I decide to adjudicate other people in my own mind. I have come to a place where I recognize that I am not to be the judge over other people, that my role is compassion based on my extensive experience with the mercy of God. In the hypothetical of the "commander of a police district, infamous for extra-judicial killings" I would choose compassion until the opportunity came for me to be directly involved. (Excellent choice of hypothetical, by the way). If my only contact with the case is through the news, I would know nothing as I, years ago, I realized the news is mostly gossip, which God says he hates. I understand why he hates gossip, because gossip causes people to hate other people. The scripture is clear that an accusation against someone must have 2 or THREE witnesses. No hearsay, no circumstantial, no technological. Witnesses. This law was so important that God said that the judge must investigate the WITNESSES and if they are found false, they are to receive the punishment of the crime for which they are accusing. Seems really harsh, but it certainly conveys the message that God does not take a misuse of the justice system lightly. What this means in the hypothetical, is that I cannot deem the evil police commander guilty in my mind, unless I have investigated the witnesses. If I am to be their judge, ESPECIALLY in my own mind, I must investigate the witnesses. Without this witness investigation, I am under other commands from God, such as judge not that you might not be judged. Some people feel that if they have personal mercy for someone, such as the evil police commander, that will somehow exonerate them. It is normal that humans feel they control everything. I have come to realize that my thought life is mostly something that only God cares about. I can rage at the bad people in the world all day and it has no effect, except to turn my heart to evil. But if your hypothetical was extended to be a local police commander in my area, and I know beyond ANY doubt from 3 witnesses that the man (or woman) is doing heinous things, I have a terrible delimma. Do I take action (as one Psalm says, save those unjustly sentenced to death)? Or do I wait for someone else to take action? I have waded right into the middle of several street fights and stopped them, bringing peace to street - I seem to do such things with very little pondering. Would I stop the police commander? Again, if I knew beyond doubt, I would give it serious thought. The risk would be very great and that would concern me for those that depend on me. But in the real world, one usually does not know anything. A man was just killed a few days ago here. According to my friends (I do not watch news) he was a leader of a power group. It is easily within conception that another power group executed him. Could be a heinous crime. Could be that the other group had elvaluated witnesses (that is difficult to believe, but it is possible), and something vaguely realted to God's law based justice was fulfilled. I guess the main point of all the verbosity above is that I have come to recognize that my domain is much smaller than I originally thought. At least as far as judging others. Another aspect of your excellent hypothetical is the government aspect. How far into government does/should faith extend? Thank you for joining me as we ponder these difficult subjects. As the world deteriorates, I expect that such subjects will become more important. And let me assure you that I really do feel heart breaking compassion for the Hutus. If I think about it more than a couple seconds, the tears form in my eyes. The hypothetical is not an academic excersize - people are in agony all over this world.

MissMuffet, you are a very gracious person, so I wonder at this statement from you.

I think that it is inevitable that I will find out that I am wrong about things. I have found that out many times over the many years I have been seeking to know God. The journey of seeking to understand must involve a willingness to revist the basis for previously held beliefs when one encounters a difficult passage. How unfortunate for those who have great standing based on their prior published teachings. A true Hobson's Choice.

Count me in on that too.

I usually avoid these topics as I find them very discouraging at every level. Please consider Paul's instructions to Timothy about elders. There are many guidelines for the church in these books. It is rather disheartening when people just pick the ones to follow that they like. Having just said that, and at the risk of appearing to only pick ones that I like, I will post a couple of guidelines that may have bearing on the topic here: Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 20As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. 21In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality. As I am not involved in that church in any way, I will leave it at that. God have mercy.

I do not understand your overall meaning here. In the OP, I was asking: Do you think people should be brought to justice for their crimes? If they are not to be brought to civil justice, should they be held accountable by the church? And I had placed the questions in the context of feeling compassion for the difficult life the (semi-hypothetical) Hutu woman would have experienced.

Very well said, DustyRoad. How is the person to whom you provide care?

Thank you for the explanation. If I can presume further on your gracious demeanor, I would summarize your point of view of the verses in Galatians 5 to be something like this: When Paul lists the works of the flesh In Galatians 5 in which he includes factions, those are a different kind of faction than the ones Paul refered to in the passage 1 Cor 11. And they are not the kind of faction about which Paul is writing to the Galatian church. Did I guess at your viewpoint reasonably well?

Thanks for bringing that up. I want all to know that I firmly believe that God Most High is the author of the scriptures, including the law books.

I take it from this part of your post that you do believe that you do think that this life matters in addition to what matters in eternity. Thanks for clarifying.

Firm Foundation, thanks for clarifying that for Who Me. I do have a question for you: Are you saying that if I post something that other people do not agree with here, and have a heart attack before I repent (not sure how you define that word), I am going to hell?

I recently posted a topic about the Rwandan Genocide, where I explained the waves of compassion that swept over me when I noticed a woman that resembled a Hutu, the perpetrators of the heinous crimes. The woman was around the right age to have been involved. I was thinking about it some more. Do you think people should be brought to justice for their crimes? I know some countries have limits on how recent a crime must be, some don't, and some have such limits only on certain subsets of crime. If they are not to be brought to civil justice, should they be held accountable by the church? (assuming the two are separate entities)

Dear Mr Who Me, once again I fear my writing was too succinct and I assumed too much connectivity. When I wrote "Too bad no authority on earth is anywhere close to these. Begs the question as to the origin of their authority." The word "authority" in the second sentence refers to the same word in the first sentence. To phrase it differently and hopefully communicate more completely: Allow me to define a word "Rialtas" as any group on earth (such as civil governments) that defines and enforces rules. After this when I use the term Rialtas i am referring to those groups. Forgive, please, the loose definition. I was observing that no Rialtas has rules (laws) that largely resemble the rules God gave in the 600+ commandmends which include the 10 commandments. Rialtas don't even have laws including most of those first 10 Commandments. Since these Rialtas are clearly NOT using the rules God gave, one wonders where Rialtas got their rules. I am assuming that you are not saying that the current governments of the world have laws that comply with the Bible. So what that means is that I am asking basically the same things as you, with the exception that my question is leading while yours was a direct question to me. If you are saying that the current governments of the world comply with the Bible, then I will revert to my previous statement that I fear it is too disruptive of a topic. And way too long to start showing where the laws of various countries do not follow even the principles laid out in the Laws of Moses. Does that make sense to you Who Me?

Dear Mr Who Me, A reader could assume from that statement that it does not matter to you if their earthly lives are horrible, that it only matters that good eternity awaits. But I hope what you mean is that you are glad that a person in their situation at least has something to hope for. I for one, believe that the Christian Mandate is to love one another. I cannot in good conscience participate in hating someone because they have sinned. I don't even want to. He who has been forgiven much, loves much.

Good point, George. I like that you brought in further illustration about the topic that Paul was referring to in Galatians. It is helpful to add that scripture to ponder as well. Brings the reader closer to understanding what Paul meant by genuine. I was going to make a joke about people always agreeing with you, but we don't know each other, so it is too risky for misinterpretation. I do notice the patience of the forums with varying viewpoints. That is a good characteristic. Out of curiosity about the activities of the Steward, did you happen to read this topic thread by chance?

Hello Melinda12, I don't know what is more likely to bring in souls. I identify with Romans 1&2, especially 2 where it says: "4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?" This is in context of Romans overall and a direct continuation of the Romans 1 list of evil that I am capable of. Paul immediately follows the list with "You who sit in judgement of such are guilty of the same things yourself". My journey with Jesus started so many years ago that I can't remember the motivations at that time, but I can say with certainty that the verse quoted above has proved itself many times in my life and in the eternal lives of others. The riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience draw people to him.

That was a long post? I am hopeless then.

Excellent points.

My precious brother, I took absolutely no offense at what you said. I did not even regard it as offensive. I just took it as an opportunity to make sure that part of what I said was clarified. What you wrote was very true and encouraging. We can all benefit from considering your words. I am glad you shared your situation. I took the time to ask Jesus to be with you on this difficult day. You will be more than adequate as you show Jesus love to the person for whom you provide care. I pray that the person has less pain.