lftc

Another section pertinent to discussion of govenment is 1 Corinthians 6:1-11 (although, as always, the larger context is important). In this section Paul teaches the church to not take things that have been done against each other to the a court of law formed outside the church (the real church).

@Melinda12 You asked how the rules about revenge relate to government. Do you have thoughts on the subject?

Thanks for the compliment. I fear that often I do not express my thoughts very well. In turn, your description of intellectualism is excellent. Especially the line "humility to accept that we are as powerless ..."

Greetings DustyRoad! I am not sure what you mean by that statement. Allow me to assume: If you mean that I was arriving at a drastic conclusion by observing that dissensions and factions are included in the list Paul gave of works of the flesh, then I fear that I have miscommunicated my conclusion. My conclusion is that those who LIVE BY the Spirit are to restore the brothers that are caught in a sin. And that those who LIVE BY factions and dissension are a separate group from those who are brothers caught in a sin. In fact Galatians 6 goes on to say: Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. If observing that an common activity is classified by Paul as a work of the flesh is too drastic, I offer my apology: my intention is to note that when we find ourselves caught in dissensions and factions that we should work towards the resolution gently, looking to ourselves lest we too are tempted (as Paul goes on to say in the passage). Just as I perceive you are doing here, speaking gently to me as you are concerned that my statement may bring division. Did I miss your point?

Thank you for bringing that truth to the discussion. As I am sure you are aware that, in Galatians, right after Paul lists the works of the flesh that include dissension and factions, he lists the fruit of the Spirit.

@GreyJay Your post brings up an important issue. Thank you for posting it. I agree with seeing through unclear thinking to see the person that God wants to save. This idea is the basis of Paul's Mars Hill message. On the other end of the spectrun is the issue of true Idolatry. I don't like that word because it conveys either incorrect concepts or incomplete concepts to many modern readers. There is a sense of Idolatry that includes anything that consumes more interest than God does in a person's life. That certainly is an issue to be addressed, but does not make it stand out as interfering with the ability to know God. There is a sense of Idolatry that includes dabling in spiritual world. This is more along the line you are referring to and is very common throughout the world. In the "Intellectual" west, many people read their horoscopes, most out of curiosity. In the more spiritually awake parts of the world, people have all sorts of culturally ingrained beliefs about minor aspects of life being involved or requiring special actions to gain blessings or avoid curses. These things can and will be eliminated as a person grows in knowing the Living God. If we define Idolatry as looking to any entity other than God Most High for our existence and salvation, we hit the most sinister and diabolical issue. This issue is spiritually fatal to a person, in other words, it will prevent them from becoming spiritually Alive or Born Again. I believe that for Satan and his legions, this is always the goal for socieites. And I believe that when a society progresses far enough along this path that no-one will turn again to be Born Again God Most High intervenes in a conclusive fashion. I think we see this in the Flood and at Sodom and Gomorrah (et al). I think we see it heading that way at the Tower of Babel with God intervening in a way that accomplished his dispersion goal while defeating the Idolatry before too many forgot the God Most High. When someone sees God working around idolatry, like Paul on Mars Hill, I use the second definition and rejoice to see God work. So when some respond with absolute refusal to consider anything related to Idolatry, I use the last definition and say "TRUE TRUE" while I shudder at the thoughts of the consequences of such Idolatry. Using the last definition of Idolatry and looking at the spread of Western society, I see the current major threat to civilization as Intellectualism.

In Galatians 5, the Apostle Paul says: The acts of the flesh are obvious: ... dissensions, factions .... I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. This is a remarkable passage as it is embedded in a letter Paul wrote where his stated purpose is remind the believers in Galatia what the true Gospel is. Paul says he is astonished that the Galatians are so quickly abandoning the true Gospel and following false believers that were teaching them another gospel. He then proceeds to give them history of the struggle between the true Gospel and the other gospel. In which he specifically recounts how even Peter (Cephas) and been deceived. This struggle he refers to was recorded in the book of Acts as well as being mentioned in other places. It is a struggle with those seeking to require obedience to the Law as part of the Gospel. It was a large and difficult dissension with very strongly opposed factions. Galatians includes many statements that are loved by the various factions that exist to this day. But the statement at the top of this post is remarkable because it puts the dissensions and factions at the same level as " sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, envy; drunkenness, orgies," and states plainly that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Right after Paul makes it clear that Peter himself was on the wrong side of that faction. Once again, we come to the dichotomy that brings understanding. An important help is found in chapter 6: "Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. " Note the use of the same phrase "live by". Those who LIVE BY (embrace a life choice of dedication to) the Spirit are to restore their sisters and brothers who are caught in a sin. Those who LIVE BY (embrace a life choice of dedication to) the works of the flesh have not inherited the Kingdom of God. But it is near. To be clear: I am not saying that the factions and dissension that are present in these forums are evidence of non-Christianity. I believe that all sin was forgiven at the Cross. It is those who LIVE BY (embrace a life choice of dedication to) their sins who have not yet decided to LIVE BY (embrace a life choice of dedication to) the Spirit that have not yet found Mercy. The riches of inheritance await. But for those who try to use these lists as proof that anyone who sins stands condemned (as opposed to those embrace a life choice of dedication to the flesh), remember that Paul purposely included in the list things catch everyone. Just as with other lists such as Romans 1. I try to avoid the factions here. But at the same time, the Gospel calls out. Paul's Gospel as Paul calls it. I believe it too, Paul.

Perfect phrasing of the question. As I'm sure you are aware, Peter gives an almost identical statement. With some more enlightenment as well.

Because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment - that is from James 2 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings - From Hosea (read the whole book and understand why it ends like it does) Then My Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ says: "But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice." God does directly tell us that revenge is not a state of mind that someone submitted to God should be involved in. In numerous places, in many different ways. For those that use the Sermon on the Mount as New Law, Jesus there gave us what is often referred to as the Lord's Prayer. Wherein he says "Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us". After saying the Prayer, he elaborates on that part saying that if you do not forgive those who sin against you, then your sins are not forgiven. That is a stunning requirement, if you are still depending on your works to keep you saved. That is why Jesus gave it and the other commands like it: when we finally believe mercy? Not in conjunction to law, but like James says Mercy TRIUMPHS over judgement. There can be no triumph unless there is conflict. But if and when you finally believe in mercy, how can you ever seek revenge? For many, the solution is to redefine mercy into something that only makes a difference on the other side of death. Your last question, as to what that means for Crime and Punishment, is a very important topic especially in this age where government, the creator, adjudicator and executioner of Law (Crime and Punishment) in each region of the world, is rapidly changing into a an entity not recognizable for the mind that loves God's law (as the Psalms say sometimes).

As the 10 commandments are the prelude and repeated througout the other 600+ commandments, you are correct. Too bad no authority on earth is anywhere close to these. Begs the question as to the origin of their authority. But that is too disruptive of a topic.

Thank you for posting this encouragement.

Worthlessness1979, I do not browse around these forums much, so I just came across your topic here. I'll assume you are still interested in responses. I understand your distrust of people. As many observe in their responses here, people say and do things that are bad. It is often harder to deal with christians. But not much harder. Everyone in the world is forgiving of the things they feel little offense at. And viciously condemning, even murderous, of the things they feel more offense at. My advice is to avoid being in a place of trust with those who will hurt you. Unfortunately, it is my experience and my observation in other people's experience that the people in a church are often the most treacherous. You can see it all over this forum, people calling for "justice" for others while basking in forgiveness for themselves. But Jesus wants us to go out and love people. He said that is our command. He said that the world will know we our christians by our love. We can't love people if we constantly avoid them. The best religious leaders ever (based on holy living - living by the rules) joyfully tortured and crucified Jesus. And while in extreme agony he, the divine judge of the world, said "Father, forgive them". In your previous post about Empathy, you observed a terrible event in India, where a person was beaten severely. You felt powerful empathy for the beaten person. That is a gift from God. That is what he feels about billions of situations around the world. That is what he felt when they were beating him. So to bring all these disconnected thoughts together, I believe he calls us to join him in the most difficult thing he could ask. Love our enemies. Do not call out for judgement, but call out for mercy, even if it costs us or anyone more than they should ever be asked to give. That is our God. I hate it when the Spirit moves me to write what I know is true, but is so far beyond my ability to do. My enemies are hideous and when I think about what they have done to the people I love, I have to fight off rage. It helps me to remember that like your screen name, I am worthless and deserve the condemnation from God himself. That helps me remember to live in light of Jesus' parable about the 2 debtors forgiven their debts. And to really apply it in this realm, not just in the "sweet by and by". If the Love that Jesus promised would unite his people is not real, then nothing in this life is worth the effort. True worthlessness, forever. But right here, right now, I once again declare that I believe. Sometimes I have to make that declaration several times a day. So I will continue to put myself at risk by being out among people that will hurt me. #@!%%

Knowing what I do of your situation, I think about you regularly. When I did not see posts from you for several days, I checked your account to see if you were just posting in other areas that I don't frequent. You were, so I was relieved. I Hope and pray that Jesus makes his presence tangible in your life.

And they will still be hated and destroyed.

Hi Deadworm, (unusual screen name by the way, I suspect there is a story there). The use of the straw man fallacy cuts a wide swath. In one way of looking at it, your question above could be considered to be related to straw man: You ask a question as if it is an either/or response. Your question implies that the question by @Coliseum is somehow related to the work from the author you mention. You even go so far as to refer to it as deceptive, using a word that many readers will not understand which is somewhat disingenuous of itself. I do not say these things to say that your overall point may be invalid. In fact, I also believe that people should be willing to address signficant issues that are pertinent to their belief systems. All people. But, alas, we lack the time and frankly the motivation to dicuss the endless string of criticisms. Again, I am not assuming that you set out to attack. But as you mentioned in your second post that the larger audience was of great importance, and I agree, it seems prudent to me to assert that you missed the point of the story in the original post. My take on the original post is that the story illustrates that a person can stand up to a professor and point out the weakness of an argument, even when facing torture and punishment for the actions. This story is entirely focused on events 80 years ago in eastern europe. As I see it, the only application relevant to your issue with the "well respected Columbia University professor, Morten Smith" who "wrote a well -respected book entitled "Jesus the Magician"" is that there is a similar title. In your appeal to authority, you propose that Coliseum is using the story from Wurmbrand to refute the book by the "well respected Columbia" prof. Unless the Columbia prof is using the same chemical reaction to prove his point, there is no connection. At this point, only you would know that, as I have not read (and will not read) his book. I will not read the book as I have no concern about what arguments are raised for or against Jesus in the hundreds of thousands of books that address the subject. Just as the authors of those books have no concern about my perspective. I fully respect your obvious intellect. But I thought I should address the assumptions made in the post. If you, personally, have concerns from having read his book and wish to discuss those, you should start a topic to discuss those. There may be others that may be interested. But otherwise, the original post in this topic has nothing to do with the other book. I hope this post is taken in the intended tone: no disrespect.

Well Said, AlexAlex.

@missmuffet and @BeauJangles I greatly respect both of you. You spend your time encouraging others on this forum. You are a blessing to many. I respectfully suggest that you misunderstood @Coliseum. He was actually presenting the story to illustrate that Jesus was NOT a magician, but rather someone to believe in so much that one is willing to go to prison. Be blessed.

I visited a group meeting yesterday. They sang some songs for Jesus. If anyone had noticed me sitting at the back of the room, they would have seen tears rolling down my cheeks. They would have thought that the Holy Spirit was touching me - as he often does to people - Praise Him. Acutally I had noticed that a woman in front of me resembled a Hutu. And having just mentioned the Hutu attempted Genocide of the Tutsis, I was drawn into remembering the terrible events. I was not there, except in spirit. I thought of the Hutus and the Tutsis living side by side for many years, but hating each other. I thought of the years of Tutsi domination resulting in true life difficulties for the Hutus. I thought of the Hutus (mostly christian) feeling so oppressed. I thought of the dreadful days when the Hutus, encouraged by mob mentality, finally rose up and hacked their neighbors to death. Right at 1 million people dead. Babies, children and adults. I thought of the Hutus then fleeing to Zaire to avoid retribution. Hundreds of thousands. Then starving. I thought that a Hutu girl of fifteen at the time of horror would now be 40. She would have participated in the slaughter as the Hutu women were almost as fully involved as the men. And if you did not pick up a machete and hack at the neighbor child, you almost certainly would be hacked up yourself. She would have lived in the refugee camps on the edge of starvation for a long time. Then returned to Rwanda. She may have wondered if the U.N. would try her and convict her for her actions, but then realized that the U.N. only went for the big people, not like the Nurembourg trials that looked for every perpetrator. I thought of the torment I feel for the compartively "little" things I have done and wondered how a woman or man can carry the weight of such things. Then I became aware of God's perspective. Tutsis abusing Hutus for generations, Hutus butchering Tutsis, the world hating and killing the Hutus for killing the Tutsis. The pain of every single individual felt by the God who loves. And that is just one tiny corner of this earth filled with hate. Tears rolled down my cheeks. And they do again. God have mercy. Soon.

@lambert it is late here but I wanted to add to what I posted last. Moses was hated after he killed the eqyptian. Hated by everyone, so that he had to run and hide. David was hated by many who should have been his friends. He was especially hated after stealing his friend's wife and killing his friend. Many in his kingdom tried to kill him many times. The apostle Paul was hated by most Christians for quite some time. He was hated by the Jewish Christians for a long time. He had been going around killing christians. What do all these have in common with you? God did not hold their sins against them. Yet their community did, even calling for their deaths. Each of them endured the worst journey in life, being hated by all. Each grew to be a person God could trust with his messages for all those that hated them. I do not know the mean things you did, and I don't care. I do choose to belive that God's kingdom is far greater than this world with its complete destruction of some people. It is a struggle to believe in God's mercy when his people are against you. But we can choose to believe him. Accept his Love that is wider and deeper than we can imagine. Believe that He loves you enough to have things planned for you, things that will be good for other people. Set out to be different than other people, set out to imitate God.

@lambert It looks like you have not logged in again. So I post this in hope that you hear it where ever you are. I know many in your situation take the faster way out. It can make sense, when the whole world hates you, the forgiveness of God only matters in heaven. @R. Hartono said it well. The sin of gossip and slander has hideous effect in this world. Lambert, I hope you somehow find the strength to carry on all alone and hated. I hope that Jesus covers you in the sleepless nights and gives you some hope. My heart breaks for you.

@SeraTaru I am hoping to hear from you.

@Seasoned by Grace thank you for posting a good reminder. The title you chose is so true, there is so much pain among those here. And among those around us. I know some of the sisters and brothers on this forum think that the times are at an end. I hope they are right. Just looking at world events and the progression of Law in the western countries, even if we are not at the END, we may be in for very rough times. We will need our brotherhood to be people we can trust.

Excellent. Truly excellent. And humbling. Isa, lift up your true identity.

I am compelled to post yet again. I feel that the Holy Spirit has given the opportunity to illustrate. The dear brother Coliseum posted a part of the story of the woman caught in adultery from the book of John. Which is an excellent example of Jesus tremendous grasp of the Law. As Coliseum isolated, he ends by telling her to "Go and sin no more". I did not know Coliseum was posting that while I prepared my second post, which included the entire story of the whore at Jesus feet, which ends with Jesus saying "Your faith has saved you; Go in peace." In the case of the Woman caught in adultery, she was brought to Jesus. We see no sign of belief in Jesus. In the case of the whore at Jesus feet. She came to Jesus. We see adoration of Jesus, which surely means belief. The woman caught in adultery is sent out with instruction to keep the Law. She is not yet ready to rely on Jesus, she needs more failure before she is ready to look for pure mercy. The whore at Jesus feet has come to the place of complete reliance on the Mercy of Jesus. One of my favorite songs of years ago: "If I could be anyone at all, let me be the whore at your feet."

@SeraTaru I need to add to the post above. On rereading it, I realize it could sound like I come from a position of strength. I do not. This story from Luke says it beautifully. My hope rests on nothing but Jesus, but I sure wish there was a brotherhood around. 36 When one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. 37 A woman in that town who lived a sinful life learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, so she came there with an alabaster jar of perfume. 38 As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them. 39 When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.” 40 Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.” “Tell me, teacher,” he said. 41 “Two people owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[c] and the other fifty. 42 Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he forgave the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?” 43 Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven.” “You have judged correctly,” Jesus said. 44 Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46 You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.” 48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?” 50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”