Charlie744

Ok, RM seems very comfortable with his interpretation and understanding of Daniel and is not interested in walking slowly through some of the chapters in Daniel. Obviously he has put a tremendous amount of work and thought into Daniel and that is certainly understandable. So, is anyone willing or interested in discussing chapter 2 and what JUST what this chapter is telling you? I have mentioned a few items in chapter 2 that I believe are important and relevant- the “bracket” concept, the limit of 4 kingdoms within this period covered by the metal man image, there is NO separation between these 4 kingdoms, they arrive in consecutive order without the need for us to “fill in “ other “actors” that may have come forth in our history books .... These are the findings or thought found in chapter 2 ONLY (as though we have not read any further in Daniel). Anyone want to offer their findings or different opinions on what chapter 2 tells them? This is not a difficult chapter BUT it is a very important one since what is thought/believed to be interpreted here will /should keep latter interpretations in line. Come on folks.. too much talent out there, Charlie

Well thank you Justin! I guess this something like your interpretation of the parable of the sower.... or something like that.... Charlie

missmuffet, I had almost completed a response to you but I hit the wrong button and lost it all... I will redo, Charlie

Thank you DeighAnn for these verses but I don't believe any of these are concerned with what happens after death...... Charlie

Thank you and if you do not mind, please tell me what his answer is, Charlie

missmuffet, why do you say it is not biblical? Are you saying the OT does not speak on this? Charlie

What does that mean to you? Jesus was in the grave on the Sabbath.... He could not be with the thief in paradise..... This is one of those "where do you place the comma's",(since there are no punctuation marks in Hebrew), OR MORE IMPORTANTLY, what do you (whoever "you" might be at the time) WANT THAT VERSE TO SAY....but again, Jesus was not in paradise THAT DAY HIMSELF, Charlie

Thank you Justin, but now you really are going to have to go to confession! And I am not going to pay my taxes .... but I am really interested in Waggles interpretation of Genesis and those who existed before Adam.... Charlie

SONshine, thanks for your information ... this is one of the many arguments out there ... did Jesus mean to tell the thief he will be in paradise with Jesus THAT DAY, or did Jesus mean to tell him TODAY I TELL YOU, you will be with ME in paradise. Remember, Jesus Himself did NOT go to heaven / paradise that day... He rested on the Sabbath in the tomb and He did not rise until the 1st day of the week - our Sunday. Then, when Mary recognized HIM outside the tomb in the garden she attempted to touch HIM but He told her not to since He had not yet ascended to His Father.... Jesus was not in paradise Himself ... Charlie

Justin..... NO, NO, and again NO... I don't believe those words came from me... please see Waggles...... Hey, I never did anything to you....Charlie

Well, you certainly are able to begin a new topic on this and solicit others opinions, but since you are obviously sincere and convicted on this specific issue of some 40000 years or so, I would bet you have a fairly good and brief response on the tip of your tongue..... please just respond with a sentence or two on what verse in Genesis is telling you this... Thanks, Charlie

No problem... everyone is entitled to their own position...... Charlie

Wait a minute.... I am not the one who is reading into Scripture what God did not include.... I believe that might just be you doing that.... Forget Heiser, I would simply ask you to read what God wrote through Moses in Genesis 1... He is quite clear and does not need Heiser to add to or correct HIM> So, would you please tell me what in Genesis is causing you to have this pre-adamic interpretation? Thanks, Charlie

Ok and great... so my response to your post was that the Lazarus parable is not a true event but used by Jesus to tell us we can not change our position after death but it is not meant to confirm or mean we are alive in spirit after death... Charlie

If my response did not follow your topic I certainly apologize but I thought you were offering the Lazarus parable to support your position that we are aware after death and will immediately go to either heaven or hell... did I understand this correctly? Charlie

Waggles, you are really starting to scare me! What in God's WORD in Genesis can possibly be interpreted there was anything before He made everything? Charlie

SONshine, you are correct in that this IS JUST A PARABLE and not an actual story. It is meant to tell us a few things but the primary focus is there is no second chances after death... we have made our choices about God - our fate is sealed. Charlie

Ok, apparently you responded with this post before I sent you my recent message. I believe this exercise is not what you are interested in pursuing and that is ok! But thank you for your comments, Charlie

First, I am very happy to hear your Mother is doing well and it was nothing serious.... that trumps ALL concerns! And let’s pray that she has no further concerns! To be candid, I am not sure I understand your response to offer your thoughts on chapter 2 of Daniel. Everyone who reads Daniel will interpret this chapter as it is read ... they will interpret the kingdoms, the metal images, etc. What I am attempting to do is to walk down chapter 2 with you ... slowly, as though this is the first time we both have read it... Now we can compare notes on what each of us sees through these verses.. Consequently, we will not be accessing any interpretations from later chapters in Daniel or ANY NT books. This will give us a “pure” chapter 2 interpretation to discuss before we move on to chapter 7. Let me know if you would like to continue and thanks, Charlie

I have got a strong feeling we will not agree on this topic. By the way, Jesus did tell the thief on the cross he would be with Him... but NOT TODAY... He told him TODAY I tell you that you will be with ME in paradise... much different since Jesus Himself said 3 days later for Mary not to touch Him as He has yet to go to the Father... Charlie

Thank you SONshine, and please note the following in response to "and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it": When we die, “then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7). It is this spirit that is popularly believed to be conscious, but does the Bible support that view? Genesis 2:7 tells us that when God first made Adam, He used two components: “the dust of the ground” and the “breath of life”. When our Creator combined those two elements, they “became a living soul”- a living, breathing person. The miraculous process just described is called creation, and the opposite process is called death. Note how the Bible shows the terms “spirit” and “breath” to be synonymous, equivalent terms: “You send forth Your Spirit, they are created….. You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust” (Psalm 104:30, 29). “The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life” (Job 33:4). “If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust” (Job 34:14). Keep in mind two obvious facts about our breath or spirit: First, our breath/spirit does not exist apart from our body. Take away our body and lungs, and we stop breathing. Second, our breath/spirit is not the conscious part of us that thinks. Our brain does that. Remember the creation equation DUST + BREATH = LIVING SOUL? When this combination is broken, when there is separation, there is no living soul, no conscious being. Those who believe that humans are naturally immortal or have immortal souls need to remember where God’s spirit or breath is in each one of us. I am alive “all the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils” (Job 27:3, KJV). That is where our Creator placed it in the beginning. “The Lord God formed man… and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life” (Genesis 2:7). We should understand that this “breath of life” is more than just air. It’s the life-giving power of God! Hospital emergency rooms don’t have it. When we die, or “breathe our last” and expire, God takes this life-giving power back to Himself. But that power is abstract, it is not a conscious being. Read the wise man Solomon’s inspired description: “The [at death] dust will return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [breath] will return to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7). At least three points should be observed about this verse: There is no implication that man’s breath is the same as his personality or “essence” – “the man himself.” On the contrary, the Bible here uses the neuter pronoun “it”. Remember that when Jesus died He committed His spirit (pneuma) into His Father’s hands (see Luke 23:46). If the body were a mere shell and the spirit “the real man” how strange that “three days” later Christ explicitly declared: “I have not yet ascended to my Father?” (John 20:17). Those who teach that the spirit is the “very essence” (or conscious person) contradict Christ and by claiming that He had ascended to His Father on Friday afternoon (when He died)! However, we must believe Christ’s words and conclude that the spirit (pneuma), which leaves the body at death, is not “the real man” or conscious being. Also, there is no implication (and biblical evidence) that man’s breath or spirit is a conscious entity. Since Solomon says the dust returns to earth “as it was”, we can assume that the breath or spirit also returns to God the same “as it was’ before. Adam’s breath was not conscious before God created him and breathed it into his nostrils, so why should we assume that it is conscious after his death? Finally, the Bible’s description of death provides no comfort to those holding the traditional view of conscious, immortal souls ascending to God at death. For it makes no distinction between good men and bad men. It says the spirits (breaths) of all the dead, both the righteous and the wicked, go back to God at the moment of death. Everyone! For Bible-believing Christians, their great hope is the resurrection of the righteous at the second coming of Christ. Before that the dead remain dead and unconscious, unaware of anything on earth and in heaven. Thanks SONshine, Charlie

2 Cor. 5:6-8. “Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight, 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.” So I believe that when we die we go to be with the Lord. The dead in Christ are with Him in heaven. Mary, you hi-lites “absent from.... with the Lord”. Why did you leave the word “rather”? Paul was not telling us we will be with Him after death but he would RATHER be with the Lord... Charlie

Thank you for your response! I agree with you that there are more than a few views / interpretations / opinions within this forum, however, this is probably no different than any other forum, denomination, church, study group, etc. God certainly understands how difficult this world is and even within the Christian faith there is disagreements, anger, hate, cults, and on and on! Heck, the RCC must have murdered and tortured over 60 million people (Christians) who did not follow their traditions, rituals, practices and beliefs! Nothing much has or will change! Which is exactly why God took ALL of this away from man- The Jews were given the privilege and responsibility to bring and teach the One True God to mankind- not only did they fail miserably and keep HIM to themselves but they too was disobedient and committed idolatry over and over again. God said “no more”, He sent His Son to us but of course was rejected and crucified. Man could no longer be trusted to represent, teach and show others the One True God. HE would send HIS HOLY SPIRIT and HE would be our teacher and counselor. We are only to seek HIM for ANY question and help for our salvation. If you look for a perfect, near perfect or even a somewhat perfect Christian or Christian church that will give you some assurance or comfortable feeling that this is the right selection or group to join you will be disappointed EVERY TIME. Ask the HOLY SPIRIT to come into your life and change you to become like our Messiah! If you do that and nothing happens, then do it again! Each one of us will have their own unique and rich transformation with and through HIM... you WILL cherish it ... continue seeking HIM not man! Just my thoughts, Charlie

Thank you! There are two comments I would like to make at this time: 1) There is NO OT and NT... ALL Scripture is God inspired and it was man who divided HIS WORD in two as though one was more important or relevant to us. 2) If I were you I would not look for a “flavor” of Christians - we are ALL flawed! There is only ONE you should look to .... man, regardless of their religion or Christian denomination will have your answers or provide you with the path to salvation. Best wishes in your journey and this, apparently, is a very important time in your life - choose Jesus, HE will NEVER fail you, Charlie

First, if you do not mind, is the reason you selected a username as “Questioning” because you are “in the process” of investigating your path of salvation- Christianity or Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.? Secondly, I am not sure your response here is telling me where you stand on Christ - has circumstances pushed or pulled you in one direction or another? Thanks, Charlie