Jaydub

Luther said, Revelation is mostly symbolic. you said, you disagreed and then you use symbolism to prove your point. I am not arguing your conclusion. It makes no difference if I agree or not, that is not the point. My point is you are looking at the symbols to come to your conclusion. Here again you do the same thing. you are taking symbolism to come to your conclusion, Beast is symbolic, the number is symbolic, unless you think people are going to have three six's tattooed to their forehead I agree that Revelation is mostly symbolic, we are to take these symbols to come to a physical conclusion, as you have done. I am not arguing your conclusion. I am simply saying, to make that conclusion you used the symbolism to get there I believe Revelation is mostly symbolic and I believe that every symbol can have a specific meaning

Your not making sense to me, you yourself right here are taking the symbolism of chapter 13 and giving it a physical meaning. Chapter 13 says the beast has 7 heads he looks like a leopard and has feet like a bear and a mouth like a lion. This is symbolism, that you gave a physical meaning to. To me you didn't pick a good example of what is to be taken literal

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. I like that you wrote, there is none in Revelation 20. Just look at these first two sentences, Do you think John saw and angel with a physical key? Do you think the angel had a physical great chain? was a spiritual being going to be tied with a physical chain or be thrown in a physical hole? Was this a physical dragon or a physical serpent? No these are symbolic imagery. We know that these symbols have a literal meaning and that is what we are to do, find the literal meaning of these passages. Lets look at the end of sentence two Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. Do you believe that the angel took that key and opened a lock on a door over a great hole in the ground? and bound Satan up with a physical chain and through him in it. This is all symbolic, so why would we think the thousand years is literal? I have seen people on these forums say, it may not be exactly 1000 years, it may be more, it may be less. That too makes it symbolic if it is not exactly a 1000 years psalm 50:10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills. Is this literal? or is 1000 hills a metaphor ?

What do you think of temple worship, all temple worship points to Christ. Take the arc of the covenant, The arc of the covenant is a picture of Jesus. Inside the arc of the covenant, you have the ten commandments, the word of God. Jesus the Word Inside the Arc there is the mana from heaven. Jesus is the bread of life, the bread from heaven inside the arc there is Aron's rod. The branch that was dead and came back to life. Jesus is the resurrection. The arc of the covenant is a picture of Jesus and once a year the high priest would sprinkle blood on it, for the forgiveness of sin. A picture of Jesus dying for the forgiveness of sin I too dis agree with you, temple worship always pointed to the cross and we as Christians are always looking back to the cross. The cross was and is the center of our faith.

You can also make the point with the vineyard/vine Isaiah 5;2 He dug it up and cleared it of stones and planted it with the choicest vines. He built a watchtower in it and cut out a winepress as well. Then he looked for a crop of good grapes, but it yielded only bad fruit. Hosea 10:1-2 Israel is a luxuriant vine that yields its fruit. The more his fruit increased, the more altars he built; as his country improved, he improved his pillars. 2 Their heart is false; now they must bear their guilt. The Lord[a] will break down their altars and destroy their pillars. Jeremiah 2:21 I had planted you like a choice vine of sound and reliable stock. How then did you turn against me into a corrupt, wild vine? Israel is clearly the vineyard/vine and to answer AdHok question John 15:1-2 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. Jesus is using the same words as Jeremiah 2:21 He is the true vine, he is the true Israel and we are grafted in to him

Yes, the unwillingness to examine ourselves

I agree that it is the same event, but I believe its the time of the very end, the second coming

17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. Jesus is God

Its a sad thing to see just how differently we all look at scriptures. I think I agree with you on just one of your twelve

absolutely

If demons flee with the name Jesus, then there is power and authority in that name and excepted by God almighty.

Jesus did not die and cease to exist. Jesus body died, but being God our creator, being eternal, Jesus did not die and cease to exist. You said, Jesus had to be so dead that only the most high God could put life back into Jesus. I agree, Jesus being our most high God, could put life back into his body John 10:17,18 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 no one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” who lays down his life and takes it up again? Jesus who has authority to lay down his life and to raise it up again? Jesus

I don't think that is correct. They believe he was killed on a torcher stake, one nail through both hands, but John 20:25 seems to dis prove that. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

That may be true, but look at Paul, he called himself the worst of all sinners 1st timothy 1:15. Why do you suppose that is. He also said of himself Philippians 3 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law,[a] blameless. Paul being a pharisee knew the scriptures and should have seen, his father was also a pharisee, he knew the scriptures. It is why, I believe he considers himself the worst of all sinners, because, with his knowledge of the scriptures he should have seen the truth, but he was blinded by his pride and persecuted the church Jesus has to physically blind him so that he could see the truth. If fishermen and tax collectors could see, than Pharisees and teachers of the law should have as well

Your Title also suggests that I am shamefully wrong Let me ask you a few questions, in the first generation after the cross, from the cross until the destruction of Israel. Who were Gods people? was it those persecuting or the persecuted, was it those who believed Jesus the messiah or those that rejected him? There were believing Jews and there were unbelieving Jews, all belonged to the nation of Israel, but which are the ones cut away and no longer Gods people, the un believers. This was not something new. In genesis in exodus and in Deuteronomy Gods people would be cut of for certain sin Exodus 12:19 For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And anyone, whether foreigner or native-born, who eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel. Here sin causes those who are Israeli to be cut off from Gods people. Israel being cut off from Israel. They are no longer able to be a part of temple worship, there is no longer atonement for their sin. They were cut off, They are Israeli, but not belonging to Gods family When we are grafted in, we are grafted in with believing Israel, unbelievers have been cut off. As in the times of old, there are two Israel's, those under the atonement and those who are not, forgiven and not forgiven, saved and not saved, unbelievers and believers. Believing Jews are called Christians. We are told this first happened in Antioch. What do we call the people in the Church? Christians, Jewish believers and gentile believers, These are Gods chosen people, those of faith, those who believe. Who are the remnant today? Believing Jews. Believing gentiles have been grafted in with them, not replacing them, but joined together with them in the belief of our messiah. Making us one family Gods chosen people. Israel