Speks

A long time ago an astute zoologist wrote: "I am absolutely convinced that people are or are not evolutionists, not for reasons based on natural history, but because of their philosophical opinions" (Yves Delage, The Structure of Protoplasm and of Heredity).

We need to be careful we don't unintentionally impose on Scripture meanings that aren't clearly there, or in our curiosity conclude we can see what we are hoping to find. Many do. The sons of God are possibly those who at one time gave the Lord His proper place in their lives, or are angels (messengers) who didn't stay where they belonged. They had casual sexual relations with the daughters of man — of "Adam". The sons of these relationships were mighty men of renown, or warriors. The Nephilim — "fallen ones" — aren't clearly identified here so we need to speculate carefully. We can't be exactly sure why they are mentioned in the same context as the sons of God. Our enemy takes the form of an angel of light. He pretends or appears to be on the side of righteousness, claiming spiritual authenticity in the world and within the true Church. In a similar way counterfeit apostles were deceitful workers masquerading (disguising themselves) as apostles of Christ. We shouldn't think of the devil appearing as a literal angel of light. The name Lucifer came to be identified with the devil after translators of the 1611 version of the Bible chose not to translate the Hebrew word for "morning star" or "light-bringer" into English. Instead they capitalised the Latin word for "morning star" —"lucifer"— which is found in the Vulgate, a translation made in Latin from the original Hebrew. This decision created a proper name that hadn't previously existed and has led to confusion. In context it can't be concluded beyond doubt that the "morning star" of Isaiah 14:12 refers to the devil. https://handtotheploughblog.wordpress.com/father-of-lies/ .

I would certainly agree that any scientist or engineer could come to Christ or believe there is a God, or intelligent design throughout the universe, etc. Of course, we know there are scientists, etc who are believers. In fact I have a book somewhere (I hope) by a scientist who isn't a believer but who had serious issues with evolutionary theory on the whole.

I agree with you totally. The world will reject or ignore Christian creationism. It cannot do otherwise. Divinity is irrelevant. My comment is shaped by my personal understanding of Scripture's definition of the world around us. Outside of Christ academia is unable to deal with spiritual realities in any context. If we tried to scripturally influence the world's academia it would be dismissed out of hand immediately. The sciences are alien to supernatural causes. In that sense the spirit of the world will always reject or ignore divine authority. Besides, the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God, and vice versa. To expand scripturally on this a little, academia is spiritually dead. In its thinking, useful though it often is, it's nevertheless following the prince of the power of the air, that spirit who works in those who are “disobedient”. So we can understand that the ways of this world are subject to the character of the spirit who controls it. The world's academia functions entirely outside of Christ. Normal believers understand the power that's in charge of world affairs. They know that ultimately it will all pass away. “… we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God” (1st Corinthians 2: 12, NKJV). Everything that is part of the world’s system comes from the world itself and is not from God. The world thinks differently to the mind of Christ revealed within us and taught in Scripture. The god of this world works on the minds of those who do not believe to stop them seeing the truth (2nd Corinthians 4:4). Its priorities, methods and solutions, no matter how effective and wholesome they may seem, rest on a different foundation – a fallen and demonic foundation. “We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one” (1st John 5: 19, NASB). The ways of the world are the “domain of darkness” believers have been rescued from (see Colossians 1:13). Jesus said: “They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them [make them holy, separate them from the world, set them apart] by your truth. Your word is truth” (John 17:16,17, NKJV). All of this matters in the context of evolutionary theory when it rejects any divine involvement. There are of course believers who see evolutionary processes embedded in the Genesis account. But these Christians are not part of the world’s fallen system. On a lighter note, I watched Richard Dawkins tell his audience that it's true that in the very beginning something came from absolutely nothing. And he was dismayed when most of his audience found that a bit silly or possibly bizarre. Something from nothing is the world's alternative to intelligent design and divine authority.

Hello Melinda. Out of interest I had a look through his website and looked at several of his articles. He's quite dogmatic at times in various contexts, which can be an issue with some personalities, but he comes over as grounded in the truth of Scripture. His site looks homemade and includes a statement of faith, which is very important. If as a God-appointed teacher he's directly answerable to his church fellowship then his ministry should be balanced. As part of a local assembly he should be open to correction where necessary. He doesn't think more of himself than he ought to: "The absolute worst thing you could do is just take someone else's word regarding doctrinal issues, even mine. Check it for yourself."

I do wonder if the heading for this thread should have been: Romans 8:1: TR Editions vs Most Modern Translations (or Critical Text). In a more generalised context (please note) relating primarily to the KJV highlighted in the title, it isn't that difficult to discredit the notion that the so-called 1611 version is the most dependable translation available (see just a couple of references below*). But who is listening? The real problem here is dealing with an underlying mindset that stubbornly clings to a tradition that's hampered by misunderstandings and the misreading of facts, a charge made in both directions! The big issue here is a deeply rooted bias against the balance of evidence. Why does this happen? At times it seems to bypass intelligence altogether. Common sense tells us it's essential not to blindly buy into what gets dumped on our laps. Instead, as curious individuals we need to look carefully at as much information as possible to get a balanced overview of the facts. There is something in human nature that gets driven hard by suspicion and scepticism. So many suffer from conditioning that makes them worry about the unseen threat of conspiracies and sneaky manipulations. They will find them where they don't exist! I remember exchanging messages with a man who called himself a Christian. He was passionate in his belief that man never got anywhere near the moon. It turned out (eventually) that he held to this notion as a consequence of believing the world is flat. But here's the thing: a lot of sincere people have a nook in their personalities that make them susceptible to conspiracy theories and other unfounded beliefs. So they run with them before they've thought it all through. I saw a young man recently who held up a placard that read: "The virus is a hoax". Seriously? So, if someone came to me and said, "Hey! Your Bible version has deleted a bunch of words at Romans 8:1!" I'd reply, "Where did you learn that? The evidence shows that the narrow Greek textual base, unavoidably used by the KJV translators, included words that should never have been there. Isn't it wrong to add text to Scripture?" You can bet your boots the discussion would almost certainly boil down to an allegiance to a faith tradition that believes the KJV contains the pure text of inspired Scripture, accurate and free from corruption. * For what it's worth (possibly not much!), do a YouTube search for The Myth of the King James Only — Tim Conway See also: http://jesusiscreator.org/?p=45 .

There are more than a few supporters of evolution who get frustrated by many creationists' understanding of the word "theory." In some creationist thinking a theory is purely conjecture — a hunch without overwhelming evidence. Evolutionists' understanding of scientific theory, however, encapsulates an established range of hypotheses. So, "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory". The evolutionist accepts the compilation of these hypotheses as a theory that's overwhelmingly supported by current evidence. Someone has usefully identified evolution in this way: "A rigorous framework of testable predictions that accounts for all known evidence and can account for future evidence." On the flip side, scholarly creationists dispute evolutionary theory's conceptional framework believing too many assumptions are made in how evidence is evaluated. They believe the known evidence can also be used to demonstrate intelligent creation. This dispute over how all the essential evidence is interpreted and applied will never go away. It's my view that it's impossible to conclusively prove either position without an element of faith (a mindset based on personal beliefs). Fundamentally, most evolutionists believe everything came from nothing, whereas biblical creationists believe God created everything. Because the world's ideology is fallen and driven by godless criteria, we can be sure academia will always reject divine authority. That's stating the obvious! But it proves that the debate over evolution will never be resolved. Both sides will continue to appeal to known scientific facts to bolster their position. We can take heart however, that those known facts can also be read in a way that supports creationist thinking.

So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.” Luke 17:6, NKJV So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.” Matthew 21:21, NKJV Then Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and from that moment the boy was healed. Then the disciples approached Jesus privately and said, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?” “Because of your little faith,” He told them. “For I assure you: If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you…” Matthew 17:18-20, HCSB ___ The New Testament tells us that healing in Christ is, of course, faith-related: “The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up… pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much” (from James 5). When Jesus healed He said things like, “According to your faith be it done to you… your faith has made you well…” There’s no doubt that He encouraged faith among those who believed in Him. And He clearly taught that even a small amount of faith could be very dramatic indeed. What kind of faith seriously impressed Jesus? The small tree-throwing kind? We read in Scripture about a centurion whose servant was sick. He totally believed that Jesus could heal. But he told Him that he was not worthy to have Him enter his house. “Say the word and my servant will be healed,” he said. The centurion’s faith astonished Jesus to the extent He said to those who followed Him, “I tell you truly, I have not found so much faith as this with anyone, even in Israel.” So Jesus rated this demonstration of faith very highly. But, as we have read, at another time He taught that faith the ‘size’ of a very small mustard seed could pull up a tree by its roots and send it flying. The centurion’s faith certainly seems to be tiny compared to the small seed of faith that can tear up trees. It’s fair to suggest that Christian experience proves conclusively mustard seed-sized faith is unknown. We know nothing of trees and mountains flying into the sea. This tiny faith is sensational because it is in fact “all faith” (see 1st Corinthians 13:2). It is the incredible full extent of faith — a dramatic and absolute conviction believers do not experience. Some sceptics can be very scathing about Christians’ inability to heal. They wonder why Christians aren’t leaving their cosy church buildings and flocking in their thousands to Third World countries to end the terrible suffering of starving, diseased children. “And where,” they ask, “do we see Christians restoring the limbs of amputee victims? It’s all bad backs, migraines, irritating limps and alleged bouts of depression.” But wouldn’t limb-restoration be the result of major faith, far greater than that of the humble centurion whose young servant needed healed? Wouldn’t it be very close to watching trees getting displaced or perhaps the dead being raised? And speaking of the dead, the spiritually dead are at a disadvantage here. They cannot truly comprehend our living and powerful Scriptures as God intends. Reason and intelligence are not enough. The ‘eyes’ of their minds and hearts are unenlightened (consider Ephesians 1:18), so they are unable to grasp how faith is likely to work. Be assured that very small faith in God can result in big changes in our lives. In Christ all things are possible, but always according to His will. If we abide in Him we can trust Him fully and we will accept what He allows. Our tiny faith can release the transforming power of God into our pressing circumstances. “So Jesus answered and said to them, ‘Have faith in God…’" (Mark 11:22, NKJV).

I know how true this is through recent dark days. Thanks for sharing.

If you read a quality translation of Scripture, what's the best approach to using it wisely? One sure way is to make balance a priority. Always use a variety of biblical truths to help you better understand the fullness of what God has said. Make it your goal to be rooted in a well-rounded understanding of God's Truth, His teachings. If we fail to have a balanced knowledge of the Bible we may overly focus on one subject that interests us, or blow out of proportion a particular definition, or get carried away by unwarranted speculations. In this way we can lift text out of context or create an emphasis that leads to confused thinking and divisive foolishness. Sometimes we come across those who select just a few specific verses here and there while neglecting to apply other essential aspects of the faith. Some people are absorbed by pet topics and can't see a subject's rightful place in the balance of Scripture. As a result they lose sight of the diverse fullness of our daily lifestyle in Christ. Unfortunately, we don't have to look far to find evidence of this. Take in the bigger view and challenge your priorities.

KJV and Bible aren't synonymous terms. This is well worn subject where the dust never settles. Believers of opposing views spiritually prosper by reading God's Word in various translations, although some are better than others, and a few should be avoided.

Does verse 4 help?

Its striking how many believed they saw similar omens through a variety of events, circumstances and so-called signs back in the 70s and around the years of the 1st and second world wars. For example, read The Second Coming of Christ by Aimee Semple McPherson (1921), or The Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey (1970). This kind of reasoning took root back in the 1800s and has never fully gone away. It has led to many questionable speculations and plenty of absurd theories surrounding current events (whenever 'current' happens to be). It's hugely popular too, but that isn't any kind of recommendation, sadly. Linking current events to difficult passages of Scripture is always fraught with problems and is typically too vague and fanciful to carry any weight. There are many people whose personalities and worldviews make them susceptible to such beliefs. This is where the main problem lies.

Unfortunately, this is false teaching. What should we do? There is often a fine line between debating error and sensibly stepping away to insulate ourselves from it. It's true we must hold firmly to the trustworthy word as it has been taught, so that we can accurately instruct others in sound teaching and refute those who oppose and persistently contradict it. There are many stubborn, headstrong personalities who are full of meaningless talk and unwholesome theories. But at what point should we firmly close the door, and in so doing keep ourselves grounded in pure, sound doctrine? https://handtotheploughblog.wordpress.com/no-room-for-bad-teaching/

Me too, JTC. A lot more and in a variety of contexts. Each day I use the CSB read by Jon Mohr, the best voice I've personally heard, and I've heard David Suchet's too. A very good reading voice. I also use the Tecarta Bible app on devices (ESV, NASB, Amplified Bible, NKJV), and theWord for laptops and PCs.

In my humble opinion, and no disrespect intended, I believe that overall this subject demonstrates a simple truism: imbalance leads to confusion, and vice versa.

May I ask, Luigi, where you learned this? Are these your own conclusions after studying Daniel and Revelation? Or are there books that teach these things?

Indeed. Such fantastical guesswork is scripturally threadbare and undisciplined — a distracting sideshow. We can join up dots to create what we would like to see. Hypothetical Hal Lindsay-type conjectures are unhelpful and regrettable. It should be our goal to be ready and not to spiritually fall asleep, but we don't need this. American Pie anyone?

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If this is somehow being linked to the title of this thread, it is somewhat idiosyncratic. Peter's faith in Christ, in the power of His name ("Jesus Christ"), healed a disabled man. There's power in that name because of Who Christ is. It was Christ Who healed. "...what I do have I give to you: In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene — walk!” (Acts 3:6, 7 NASB). Following this, preaching to those who had gathered around, Peter pointed out: "He was made completely well because of trust [faith] in Jesus [L the name of Jesus], and you all saw it happen..." (EXP). Peter preached that because Christ was raised from the dead, "...it is the name of Jesus [Lit: His name] which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which... through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all." In short, God's healing through Peter was possible because of his faith in Christ and the power of His name. Contextually reasonable translations will read: "And his name-by faith in his name-has made this man strong whom you see and know, and the faith that is through Jesus has given the man this perfect health in the presence of you all" (ESV); "And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all" (NKJV).

Reverence for God motivates us to be pure and set apart. The verses following on from your first reference show us how to progress with Christ. This needs to be a daily lifestyle that encourages spiritual growth leading to maturity. This is balanced out elsewhere in Scripture where we are reminded if we do fall into sin we can find forgiveness through heartfelt repentance. "Our goal should not be only to sin less, but rather to live a holy and godly life" is well put. If we truly reverence God we will gladly aim to please Him. 2nd Peter 1:3-11 explains how true believers grow in Christ and so become more like Him. This is a key portion of Scripture well worth looking at closely. By digging a little deeper into these verses we may get a fuller understanding of how God wants His people to live—the normal everyday Christian life: “His divine power has given to us all things that relate to life and devout living, through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and virtue by which He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may escape the moral decay and corruption that is in the world because of lust and greed, and become sharers in the divine nature. “For this very reason, by careful application as you exercise your faith, develop high moral standards, and to this moral excellence add knowledge [about Him], and to knowledge add self-control, and to self-control add a resolute and patient attitude, and to this steadfastness add godliness and reverence, and to your piety add brotherly affection, and to brotherly affection add kindness and love. “For as these qualities increase within you they will keep you from being unproductive in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Whoever lacks these qualities is [spiritually] short-sighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. “Therefore fellow Christians, be all the more eager to make your call and election sure, for as long as you practise these things you will never stumble or fall; for in this way an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” …what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness? 2nd Peter 3:11, ESV

Hello there Traveler. I do see the fruit of the Spirit as a result of walking in faith in Christ. Or, to put it another way, they are "The living by-products of a faith-filled relationship with God". I wasn't intending this paragraph to be a direct definition of faith but an important comment on how faith in action will work in our lives.

Hello Melinda. This is a very difficult situation for you indeed. It reminded me of this verse which you may feel directly or indirectly applies to that suffering person in your family: "In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4 ESV). Some people can become very bitter too over the years, perhaps after way too many challenging and confusing circumstances. But don't give up. Pray against a darkened mind and in Christ resist the schemes of the enemy.

Thanks, NotAllThere. I may have gone off on a tangent here in a way. It may seem pedantic of me to wonder about the viability (and dangers) of creating 'liberal' versions of scriptural definitions, such as: the Gospel and Salvation, Christ's resurrection and victory over the grave, the nature of faith, godliness, purity and sanctification, sexuality, prayer, walking in the Spirit, God's discipline and wrath and punishment, inspiration, church order and religious practice, the devil and demons, miracles... And so on. So, at what point do liberal interpretations and viewpoints become a harmful dilution of the robust fullness of biblical teaching? When are they a delusional distortion of God's revelation? (Where would these dilutions and distortions ultimately originate?) I'm just kinda thinking 'aloud'. In my personal disciplines I have spent quite a few years looking at the definition of normal Christianity. I discovered that in essence it is what it is, and powerfully so. To lessen or redefine a significant part of sound teaching weakens the whole unified structure. There is a need for a childlike trust that isn't childish and doesn't feel the need to use limited human wisdom to intellectualise the Gospel Truth that stands entirely on Christ's miraculous resurrection. Perhaps this is relevant: "We refuse... to tamper with God's word (adulterate it)..." (2nd Corinthians 4:2).

So... can we say with certainty that a liberal Christian, or a liberal faith, is intrinsically at odds with the God-inspired biblical revelation/definition?