endure4salvation

I heard this very same thing today out of the woman that sits next to me at work. She is one of the most negative people I have ever been around, yet she is always talking about the Bible and Jesus. I made a comment today about holiness and people who are drunkards and said that God can save us from a sinful lifestyle and she said, "Well, everybody sins, 'All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.'" She spent many years in Charles Stanley's church and now she can't shake the sin in her life. I wonder if such is the norm or the exception.

Hi Teri. God bless and keep you. You don't need to thank me, I am just trying to spawn people to get in the Word and closer to God--something we all should be doing for each other. Thank God for speaking to you. Yes, we can fully trust in Christ alone. He is our sufficency and our strength. I really hate it when I sin. I know that I displease God and I don't like to do that. I will comment on the first part of your statement first. I think that a great deal of those who profess to be Christians are living a life of compromise. They do not really want to live a completely holy life because they are unwilling to fully submit to the Lordship of Christ. I personally know how it feels because I spent some years there myself. I fully believed in an unconditional eternal security--no matter what I did I was saved. But I had a friend challenge me on this and I searched out the truth. It took me over a year, but I finally rejected eternal security and now I actually have much more security in my walk with Christ than I did before. Strange you might ask? Well..... Before, my security was in a doctrine--the doctrine of eternal security. Now my security is in Jesus Christ.

Hi Teri! I have done my good deed for the day. If my posts have cause anybody to search out the Scriptures, then my job is done! I am not here to blast people or a doctrine. I am here to encourage, challenge, and help others. I just want to take as many people to heaven as I can. As for Deuteronomy (and all 5 of the Torah books), the symbolism is striking! The promised land, deliverance, miracles, the list goes on and on! We Christians have a great and fulfilling promise from our God and Father and it amazes me that people can call themselves Christians and yet live a life of sin and mediocrity. "Christian" means "Christ-like." Will any of us be sinless? No, but does that mean that we shouldn't make it our live's obsession to try? Considering the great lengths that God went through to prove His love to us, shouldn't we be compelled to strive to love Him with a zeal that is unmatched in the secular world? We are supposed to be different right? Didn't Jesus say that non-believers would know Christians because of their love? As for the marriage--that takes place in the future. As of now we are considered virgins to be striving to be without spot or blemish awaiting our bridegroom.

Hi Sagz! I trust that everything is going well with you! Shouldn't that be read ?? It is pretty much in line with what Arthur said. If Jesus said "Depart from Me workers of iniquity, I never knew you." It would be the same thing as what you quoted: "I don't know you." I see what you are getting at, but remember that ALL of the people in question are refered to as "virgins". These are people who are saints according to Christ. They have to be because we are the bride of Christ, thereby making us virgins. Explain to me again how this doctrine is not a license to sin? :x: Charles Stanley has in his book on eternal security that there will be a place in heaven where there will be a fiery furnace in the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Isn't that a strange intrepretation? He says this because he knows all of the parables where a servant of Christ is sent to the lake of fire due to various reasons, including not being a good steward and violence towards other believers.

Arthur Durnan, with all due respect, you seem to be using nothing more than a human argument. You quoted only one passage of Scripture and failed to read Matthew 25:1-13 which clearly states the same thing you denied that Jesus can say. It talks about the virgins that are ready and the virgins that are not ready when Jesus comes back. To 5 he is pleased and lets them in heaven, to the other 5 he says: That is exactly what you denied early on in your post. You failed to read the rest of Scripture when you quoted it. We need to accept ALL of what the Bible teaches, not just parts that fit our pre-conceived theology.

Hi Teri. I would just like to remind you of the fact that God's word goes to such great lengths to show us that GOD HATES SIN!!! There was no OSAS before the fall--In Genesis 2:17 God told Adam that if he sinned, he would die. There was no OSAS in the OT covenant--Ezekiel 18 clearly says that if a righteous person turns away from righteousness, his soul will die. There will be no OSAS during the tribulation--Revelation 14 says that if a saint (Christian) receives the mark of the beast he will be tormented forever with the flames from the lake of fire. There was no OSAS for The Apostle Judas Iscariot--he was called a spiritual brother of Jesus (Matthew 12:48-50), had his name in the book of life (Luke 10:20), and ended up in hell (John 17:12, Mark 14:21). There are clear warnings issued to Christians that it is still possible for them to end up in the lake of fire as well; here is a list of things that can happen to a Christian, who has been born-again and sealed and justified.... * Refusal to do the will of the Father in heaven (Matthew 7:22) * Fall away (Matthew 11:6; Mark 14:27-29) * Refusal to change and be humble (Matthew 18:1-3) * Wander away (Matthew 18:12-13) * Unfruitfulness (Matthew 21:33-46) * Turn away from the faith (Matthew 24:10) * Not standing firm to the end (Matthew 24:13) * Disobedience (Matthew 24:42-51) * Be told 'I don't know you' by Jesus because one was not ready (Matthew 25:1-13) * Stop believing and fall away in the time of testing (Luke 8:13) * Lose your saltiness (Luke 14:34, 35) * Turn back and no longer follow Jesus (John 6:66) * Be like a branch that is thrown away and wither in the fire and burned (John 15:6) * Go astray (John 16:1) * Be broken off because of unbelief (Romans 11:20) * Wickedness, sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, male prostitution, homosexuality, theft, greed, drunkenness, slandering and swindling (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) * Fall from grace to the point that Jesus is no longer of any value to you (Galatians 5:4) * Sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness and orgies (Galatians 5:19-21) * Immorality, impurity, greed and idolatry (Ephesians 5:5) * Sexual immorality and lust (1 Thessalonians 4:3) * Wander away from a pure heart, a good conscience and a sincere faith and turn to meaningless talk (1 Timothy 1:5,6) * Have your faith shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19) * Wander away from the faith (1 Timothy 6:10, 21) * Turn away to follow Satan (1 Timothy 4:1) * Depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1) * Wander away from the truth and destroy the faith of others (2 Timothy 2:18) * Turn your ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths (2 Timothy 4:4) * Drift away to Transgression and disobedience (Hebrews 2:1-3) * Acquire a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God (Hebrews 3:12) * Not making every effort to enter God's rest and fall short (Hebrews 4:11) * Fall away to the point where you can't be renewed to repentance (Hebrews 6:6) * Turn away from him who warns us from heaven (Hebrews 12:25) * Be carried away by all kids of strange teachings (Hebrews 13:9) * Leave the straight and narrow way and follow the way of Balaam (2 Peter 2:15) * Be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position (2 Peter 3:17) * Not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Revelation 2:10, 11) * Become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Revelation 3:15, 16) * Receiving the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-14) * Cowardness, unbelief, vileness, murder, sexually immorality, practicing magic arts, idolatry and lying (Revelation 21:8) * Have God take away your share in the tree of life and in the holy city (Revelation 22:19)

Did you miss the main point of this thread? I started it out by saying that we need to understand the difference between works of merit and works of faith! Can you not see the difference? That is the reason why you are misrepresentating the position that we are trying to emphasize here.

The Bible has many, many OT prophecies concerning the Messiah. What I would suggest doing is getting a copy of the Jewish Scriptures, WITHOUT the NT (I have a Jewish Publishing Society version that you can get at Borders or Barnes & Noble for about $15 or $20) and study prophecy. You can show how all over you see a promise made by God to bring forth the messiah. God promised Abraham that one would come through him that would bless ALL NATIONS. Then through Isaac, Jacob, and the tribe of Judah. Then through David, and so on and so forth. Show how there were a few Gentiles mixed in with the geanology of Jesus (like Rahab and Ruth is it?) and then indicate according to Daniel 9:24-27 that the exact time that the Messiah was to come was 483 years after the order was given to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. All of the records of genaology were destroyed when the temple was destroyed in AD 70, so now it is impossible to see for certain if the "messiah" that will come was a descendant of Abraham and David. I would greatly suggest doing a study on this subject more before you witness to your Jewish friend, though.

Hi Teri! I just used Deuteronomy because it is filled with obvious conditional promises of God to the Israelites. As you read it, make sure to look to see the many times that God says "If you do this, I will do that." I was thoroughly amazed at it my own self. And please take note that Hebrews 13 has God making the promise of "I will never leave you nor forsake you." This is actually a quote from Deuteronomy and the context is not an unconditional "never leave nor forsake", but is actually a promise that if someone does leave or forsake Him (through unbelief--the opposite of faith), they will also be forsaken by God. My main reason for starting this thread is just that exact point. We are justified and saved by our faith, and we can abandon that faith and therefore........

Are we once shaved, always shaved? How about once driver of a 1969 Corvette with a 427 Big Block and 4-on-the-floor, always driver of a 1969 Corvette with a 427 Big Block and 4-on-the-floor? No? Oh, OK! :x: Just had to mess with alla ya'll....(I have been in Georgia WAY to long!!!)

Hi Teri! May you be blessed by our Lord and Savior! I am not sure what opinions I can add to what God said! If God said something, it is absolute truth and we have no room to debate or question it. I want to comment on the underlined portion of your comments here. The OT as a whole is a forshadowing of not only Jesus the Messiah, but the covenant that He made with us under grace as well! God brought them out of slavery through miracles (there is Jesus), and after He did that, the ones that disobeyed were destroyed. And when the nation as a whole rejected the covenant because of what is called 'uncircumsized hearts', God sent armies against them, drove them out of the land, and destroyed the temple. This actually happened twice, right? So God's promises are clearly conditional upon our obedience to Him and His commands! He tells us this all over the Bible and we need to accept the good promises of God along with the negative promises of God. I would suggest reading all of Deuteronomy to get a clear understanding. I tend to think that the usaved and wicked people have an apparence of prosperity. We know that we have the true peace in our lives--we know God (or as Paul put it, are known by God!). I enjoy discussing things like these! You can pick my brain all day and night! I really like to talk about the Lord and the Bible. My main point is that we can live a holy and pleasing life before our Lord IF (there is that "IF" word again~ ), we are willing to submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. But we must meet the conditions found in the Bible.

My main point is that the letters were originally written to Christians. The Gospels were written to non-Christians originally so that people could believe in Jesus for salvation, and the epistles were written to Christians so that they could know how a Christian is supposed to live. And even Jesus warned His apostles that they needed to change in order to enter heaven in Matthew 18:2-3. My main point is that we can be empowered to live a holy life, but ONLY through our submission to Jesus as LORD, not just Savior.

I know that this link I am providing is very long, but really worth the read. It is my understanding that the early church considered this to be actual God-breathed Scripture, but I have not studied it yet. God bless you PastorLyndon! http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/shepherd.html

Hi again! I can't answer for Jedi, but I can post some verses that I think apply to your question! Be blessed, sister!

Yea, Comcast is the antichrist, that is for sure! Anyway, I am glad that you brought up 1 John 1:9. Remember that this text was written to Christians as well! Which leads to the question: I have heard OSAS preachers say, "All of your sins, past, present, and future, are forgiven the moment you receive Christ as Savior." If this is true, then why does John tell Christians that they should not sin (one verse before our text here), and then tell them that if they do sin that they need to confess in order to be forgiven for the sin? Please be aware that nowhere in the Bible will you find that our future sins are forgiven before we confess them. In fact, we find just the opposite! Please notice that only the sins that are past are forgiven. When I said that I have heard OSAS preachers say that, I mean that I went to a 13,000 member Baptist (Southern) church and heard this statement made over and over, along with many other statements meant to misrepresent the opposite position. Jesus told us that not only are the unbelieving going to end up in the lake of fire!

Moses was involved in an "inter-racial" marriage, and Acts 17:26 tells us that all nations are of ONE BLOOD. There is no such thing as different 'races'. Plus, if blacks are to marry only blacks, can a light skinned black marry a dark skinned black? How far does one want to take this? If a 1/2 black, 1/2 asian wants to marry a 1/2 white, 1/2 arab, God will issue His blessings if both such people are committed to Him.

Well, I hate to admit it, but a lot of Handmaid's comments are correct. While I am not quite so intense, I won't be telling my children about Satan Claus. I don't want to take the chance of telling my child to believe in Jesus whom he/she can't see and also Santa also whom he/she can't see and then upon finding out that Santa is not real, the same rejection of Jesus. Plus, it is lying to the kids.

This is actually funny to me. People put their bias-glasses on and see only what they want to see (or what they are told to believe). Gee, I wonder why this is....let me guess.......because from the time people are born, they are indoctrinated with evolution philosophy? DING, DING, DING.....You sir, are correct!

If you It is two of the most important words in the Bible. Here are a few quotes with "IF" (or IF YOU) in them, starting with the OT.

This makes my point. Those who live according to the sinful nature (sinners) are those who do not know Christ. They will die as a result. Those of who are led by the Spirit of God are Sons of God (Christians). Real simple. It is not as simple as you are trying to make it sound. Romans is a letter written to already believing Christians! Therefore, any warning is meant to be a warning to Christians! Notice that Paul includes himself in those whom he is warning! Paul tells Christians, "If you live in sin, you will die. But if you live by the spirit, you will live." How much more clear does it need to be said? If this passage is talking about physical death only, then you must admit that the end conclusion is that if a Christian can live without sin, they will never die physically! This is clear too. Those who do not abide in Christ (sinners) are cast out. That will happen at the day of judgement. Those who abide in Christ (Christians) will bear much fruit. If someone says that he is Christian but prefers to live in habitual sin, he needs to reexamine the authenticity of his salvation experience. Again, you are missing the main point here. Jesus was talking only to his apostles (minus Judas Iscariot)! Jesus is warning HIS APOSTLES that if they don't remain in Him, they will end up in the lake of fire! "If what you heard (the Gospel) abides in you, (if you are saved), you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." The promise of the Gospel is eternal life. If someone is not saved, if they reject the gospel then they do not have the promise of eternal life. Nothing you have provided thus speaks to Christians losing their salvation. Again, John is exhorting Christians that they need to abide in Christ in order to receive eternal life! How clear does it need to be stated? It WILL be the case. The pharisees in the NT proved it. Their works based idea of salvation made them into prideful hypocrites. I see people today in various groups doing it. If you don't wear your hair a certain way, or if your dress isn't a certain length, or if you wear jewelry, or if you listen to a certain kind of music, or if you wear too much perfume/cologne, ad nauseum, then you are not saved. I come from a heavily Baptist populated area. There is a church here, that teaches the Baptist Bride doctrine. They believe that only Baptists are the Bride of Christ, and if you don't do it their way, you are not saved. That is a bunch baloney, but they have allowed their works based approach to salvation become an extreme issue of pride and downright heresy. I don't think that you can use the Pharisees as a proof text because they had more problems then just pride. They were unsaved to begin with. I am saved and there are times where what you said is true, but it brings mostly sadness because of the unwillingness of people to obey Christ's commands. I have spent just about all of my life in the Baptist church and have heard OSAS messages a whole lot. I know just about every argument used and just about every proof text that is used. As for the quotes I provided, I will look up the references if you really want me too and provide them.

Hi Calamity! I trust that you have been doing good since I have been away! There was a problem with my phone line for the past 2 days, thus my absence! I am not trying to say that people will stand in a pulpit and preach that OSAS is a license for immorality--at least not point blank that is. I could throw out a whole bunch of quotes where people have said that you can commit adultery and murder and still remain saved, thus we have an indirect admittance that OSAS is a license for immorality. As for the quotes, I can dig up the references for you if you would like to study them in context. Some of them are from books, and others from sermon tapes. I think I showed clearly that the word IF can't be replaced with SINCE in many different places, so I will hold off comments here.

Uh, I hate to say this, but I didn't understand one thing there! I am not sure what you are trying to say. But upon showing verses like these to other people, they have come back with "The word 'IF' should be read 'SINCE'" Here are some other "IF" verses with the word "IF" removed in favor of "SINCE" That doesn't make sense either does it? :x: Anyways, I hope you are having a great day. I don't intend for anybody to doubt themselves, because the Bible is clear....we DO have security in Jesus--as long as we keep the faith and meet God's conditions. Besides, we aren't going to stand before God and tell Him that He doesn't have the right to place conditions on our salvation, are we? It is HIS eternal life and He will give it to those whom meet His conditions.

Go ahead and tell us! We will discuss if you would like.

I like how you include the word "IF" in your post, thereby making it conditional! And if your claim is correct, then explain to me the following verses: Do the words "IF YOU" mean absolutely nothing here? Here is a promise of Jesus that if we do our part, he will do his part? And look at this next one: The Apostle John fully knew that it was possible for someone to not "let that abide in [one]" because of the conditional word "IF". And note that eternal life is conditional upon our choosing to let that abide in us. John says, "If it does, you will receive the promise of eternal life. Again, do the words "IF YOU" mean absolutely nothing here? Such could be the case. But even Christ humbled himself, and is the Power by which we live. We can become the people God intended for us to become. Anyone who tells you that the doctrine of eternal security is a license to sin does not know that they are talking about. It is not a lisence to sin. The Scriptures teach that we are new creations and as such, we should have new desires and new appetites. We can live any way we want to, because as Christians we have a new set of "want tos." That does not mean that Christians will not fall. Grace is not there for you ONLY when you are doing what is right. God does not withhold His Grace when we sin, otherwise what was the point of offering Grace in the first place? It would be like your car insurance company refusing to cover you when you have a fender bender. Grace does not do away with the need for holiness, rather Grace is there when you fall, to say "I forgive you. Get up and try again." Eternal security does not encourage sin, it emboldens us to live for Christ. For what the Holiness of God demands, the richness of His Grace provides. Here are some quotes:

Hi butterfly! The answer to this question can be clearly seen in Genesis 1 & 2. If we take each day as one single day, we have not one problem with the rest of the Bible. But if we take each day as a thousand year period, we have a lot of ssssttttrrreeeetttcccchhhhiiiinnnnnggggg to do to make it fit. I originally wrote this to show that evolution and the Bible just don't fit, and the information should be revelant to your question. Here is what was created on each day, according to the Bible: Day 1 Heavens and Earth and a temporary light. (notice how God created the sun AFTER the earth? He wanted to show us that He really did have US in mind when He started creation) Day 2 A firmament (the space where the birds fly) in the midst of the waters. This hints toward a canopy of water that was ABOVE the earth