sagz4Christ

sorry again!!

There is a very fine balance we as Christians have to maintain. 1. We are to hate sin but lvoe the sinner. 2. We are not to have fellowship with unrigheousness, but we are to reach out to the unrighteous and point them to Christ. 3. We are to live as pilgrims in a world that wants us dead, but we are to love the very people that try to destroy us. It is a fine line to walk indeed. How do we go about it? Unfortuneately, I don't know. I don't have the answer. Fortunately, I know where to look to find it. In a day and age where we move too fast to smell the roses, or take time out (even a few minutes to feel the fesh breeze on our face, or gaze in awe at the beauty of the mountains, we have become accustomed to living at such a fast pace we don't have time to think. On top of this, we have to watch out for all the FALSE TEACHERS!!!!! ACK!! Put these two things together, and we get a bunch of fast moving people/ Christians who run around with thier guard up all the time. At the drop of a hat, we get offended by something someone said without taking the time to figure out why. We then label them as heretic and blast them any time we get the chance. Only after we have made ourselves look foolish for falling into the worlds trap do we realize our error, though too late to save the image of the person we just desemated. We cannot be so ingrossed in our own little world that we forget the all important words of our Lord, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations..." Mathhew 28:16. I admit that I am often times confused by the simplicity of that statement. Note that Jesus didn't say First discuss it, then ponder your discussion, then ask for help. He just said......"go"...just go! We would all do better (and if you think I am standing on a pedestel, I am saying this to myself more than you all) if we took a closer look at the character traits Christ said would make all the difference in the world. I would ask you all just one question: What does a Christian look like? *hint* Matt. 5:3-12 By His Blood; ~Sagz

Wow!! I guess you don't have to be a very smart person to know how wrong that is! It almost makes me cringe just reading this post! I would like to quote one of our fellow Christians on this board: "All Praise the Ancient of Days!!" Be Blessed!! By His Blood; ~Sagz

You know, I was thinking the same thing you are a couple weeks ago. I do believe that we need to stand up for our rights, but I also know that we need to keepo ourselves in submission to the rulers appointed over us. This is the great juxtaposition. The law says nothing about seperation of Church and State. This is just the way our leaders have interpreted freedom of religion. Our laws....I I now know the laws of Alabama were founded on the same priciples set forth in the Ten Commandments. Indeed, they are (used to be anyway) in line with the biblical priciples of governing. In todays society we have seen a definate shift in the way we interpret the law. And though we as Christians might not have needed to make such a stink about this particular incident, it seems that the enemy is starting small and gaining strength to go for bigger and better victories. Maybe we could let them have this victroy without a fight, or even a shrug. Then they will wipe away "One nation under God" from our Pledge. Ok, what next? "In God we trust" is axed. Do we see a trend? If it weren't for the fight we are putting up with the Ten Commandments, God would be kicked out of this country and then who would we have to protect us? This country could very feasibly become another China or India in the way it percecutes Christians. Though something of this nature is spoken of in the Bible, and though it seems that everything is speeding up for the final battle, we cannot know for sure when it will happen. The people 100 years ago were probably saying the same thing we are. Are we fighting against the Lord's will? Are we getting in His way? Well, I would have to ask if it is possible for us to really get in the way of His plan. I mean....can I or any of us do something that will take God by suprise? Make Him say, "MAN!! I WISH they didn't DO THAT!" I have to say I don't think so. Since none of us really know what the future holds, or when the Lord is coming back, we have an obligation to stand for the truth, even if it makes us unpopular in the secular world. We have an obligation to take the Gospel of Jesus Christ into the streets and into the dark places of this country. We need to take it into the very place where the leaders make the laws that allow this kind of thing to happen in the first place. We need to stand and be counted amoung the children of God. I am not saying that to get everyone riled up and ready to fight. I need to temper this by saying that we also need to pay attention to the beatitudes. These are the qualities we as Christians need to posess. In my most humble opinion. By His Blood; ~Sagz

WAAAAHOOOO!!!!!! HE IS RISEN INDEED!!!! :t: :t:

Wow! I am always interested in how people can see the very small details in the bible. Like how Bruce Wilkenson found one sentence in the middle of a huge geneology about a prayer of some obscure person. (Not that I condone the way he went about publicizing it). In like manner though, you have seen a small story that the Holy Spirit has lightened your soul with and I would bet that not many of us has barely noticed the story....or the lesson that is contained in it. (I don't think there is any such "obscure" story in the bible for it all pertains to life and godliness!) I would like to add my favorite for the time being. (I have two that I am thinking of, but will start with the story of Haman and Mordecai.) In the book of Esther....chapter 2, we learn of a plot to kill the King Ahasuerus hatched by two of the kings door guards. Mordecai the Jew catches wind of this and he tells Queen Esther (His niece) and she tells the king. After the two guards were hanged on the gallows, the whole event "was written in the Book of the Chronicles in the king's presence." (Esther 2:23) After that, the king promoted a guy named Haman, the son of Hammedatha the Agagite...(I have yet to research who Hammedatha was)....and advanced him to "prime minister". This caused no end to Haman's bloated head and ego. Not to mention that the king also ordered that all who haman passes must bow down and pay Haman homage. The only one that didn't bow or pay hoomage was Mordecai. Haman HATED this and after a while, built a tall gallows in his front yard and planned to hang Mordecai on it as soon as he got the chance. Anyway, we skip a bit to Chapter 6. Chapter 6 finds that King Ahasuerus could not sleep one night, so he had the Book of records/chronicles brought in and read to him. (I am almost sure that this was standard practice to cure insomnia. It might also have been used for some cruel torture devise as well, but this is just my opinion ). I digress.....while reading this book to the king, it was found written what Mordecai had reported concerning the plot to assassinate the king. After learning that nothing was done to honor or dignify Mordecai, King Ahasuerus called Haman and asked him, "What is to be done for the man whom the king desires to honor?" (Esther 6:6). Immediately, Haman thought to himself, "Who would the king desire to honor more than me?" (Esther 6:6) Haman then says the following; "For the man the king delights to honor, have them bring a royal robe the king has worn and a horse the king has ridden, one with a royal crest placed on its head. Then let the robe and horse be entrusted to one of the king's most noble princes. Let them robe the man the king delights to honor, and lead him on the horse through the city streets, proclaiming before him, 'This is what is done for the man the king delights to honor!' " (Esther 6:7-9) Now Haman was thinking of what he wanted from the king. The most visible and lavasciuos set up his ming could think of. The king agreed with him!! Ahhhh....this book always manages to bring a smile to my face! By His Blood; ~Sagz

Ithink I need to take this time to apologize officially to everyone on this board. I came in and (unintentionally) found myself in the middle of some heated debates. I posted a few times out of...not really anger, but annoyance and in my mind I was thinking..."I'll set these Christians straight!" Not knowing that God was doing a work in me. I need to say that I have made an honest effort to apologize when I am in the wrong and for the most part, I feel it has been accepted, but I need to apologize to everyone that has happened upon my seething posts. I have mellowed out now and intend to do my part to build up the body. I told godrulz that I am not a very lerned man and sometimes I may not make any sense, but I post from my heart and have a hard time getting my point across. Please bear with me as I continue to grow and learn what it means to edify and not destroy.....and hopefully, one day....I will have something "worthy" to contribute! To Cats....... .................. thank you for the compliment! Again you humble me.... By His Blood; ~Sagz

Ok. I will enter in again here. Trying to remain in the same spirit this thread was originally started, I want to again state this is coming from love. What I am about to say, though more than likely not tactful, is definately intended to raise a few questions. First, let me say that I am quite pleased the way this thread turned around and started becoming a Christian discussion again. (I had a part in the venom that was trhown around earlier). I have since cleared my head and my heart. It looks like everyone has done the same. This post is mostly for Godrulz, but is intended to get everyones mind thinking on much bigger scales than we currently are. So with that, I will get started: Godrulz, so much of what you say I can wholeheartedly and unequivically agree with! I can tell you are fully dedicated to searching for God's will in your life as evidenced by your obvious study of His Word. However, we do have quite a few different views on things as well. It is these differences we need to be aware of before we can come to an understanding of each other. Let me start by saying that I am not as learned as you are, but I do know something of the Love of God, and this is the direction I am coming from, so please bear with me.... I am going to outline my idea of the Gospel message and point ouit where we differ. Then I will await a response to gauge your understanding of where I am coming from. We can continue here, or if you like, through email/pm/messanger. I am deeply commited as you are to seeing this topic through. So you know, I learned about the gospel from the Evangelism Explosion study guide. (I just don't want anyone thinking I am trying to take credit). The Gospel 1. Grace........... A) Heaven is a free gift. (Romans 6:23) "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life..." B) It is not earned or deserved. (Eph. 2:8-9) "By grace you have been saved, through faith - and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God - not of works, lest any man should boast." 2. Man .................... A) Is a sinner (Rom. 3:23) "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." The Bible also teaches that it is our nature (though we can also choose) to sin. (read Rom. 7:15-23). Another way of putting it is that Adam corrupted the flesh when he sinned, and all that are born in the flesh are born into sin because of Adam. (Rom 5:12) "Therefore just as through one man, sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned..." B)Cannot save himself (Matthew 5:48) "Be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." 3. God ................ A) Is merciful, therefore He does not want to punish us (1 John 4:8-10) ".....God is love. By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." B) Is just, therefore, He MUST punish sin. The Bible says the He "will by no means clear the guilty" (Exodus 34:7). Following is the answer to this dilemma....... 4. Jesus Christ ............... A) Who He is - The infinite God-Man. "In the begininng was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.......the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us..." (John 1:1,14) B) What He did - He died on the cross and rose from the dead to pay the penalty for our sins and to purchase a place in heaven for us. Jesus Christ fulfilled the mission that was His. What was it? In one text: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:6). The sin that God so hates, was laid on His Son. Christ bore "our sins in His own body on the tree" (1 Peter 2:24). When He dies, He was buried for three days, rose again and went to heaven to prepare a place for us. (John 14:2-3) "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, adn recieve you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." 5. Faith ....... A) What it is not: It is not mere intellectual assent. (James 2:19) "....the demons also believe, and shudder." It is not mere temporal faith. i.e. only trusting In Christ for the temporal things of life...health, finances, protection, guidance...the things that don't have any eternal value. B) What it is: The Bible teaches that faith is trusting in Jesus christ ALONE for eternal life. Not in works....and not even ourselves to keep us until He comes. It means trusting in Him ALONE for EVERYTHING! What a comfort...If it were up to me to stay in the hands of God, then my friend...there would be no good news at all. I hope that I have helped to shed some (maybe even just a tad bit of) light on an otherwise impossible subject to converse about. I have been doing ALOT of study on this for a few weeks now and have learned that this here debate has RAGED in Christian circles for round about 500 years. They haven't solved it by now, we won't either. My point is just that we need to stop being concerned the small details of the faith and LIVE IT instead of debate it! The question you need to ask yourselves is this...... How is my faith being worked out in my life? I know what Christ is doing in my life. I am in a state of growth right now and He is challenging some of the things I have thought were correct. To put it in the Simplest terms.....He is showing me about "Simple Faith". It's really easy....laid out before you above. That's it. Live Like you mean it...and Love Like it's His heart inside you...(cause after all.....it IS!)..... I await your reply By His Blood; ~Sagz

I believe that you can do both at the same time. Just about every message a preacher can give...inevitably includes the salvation message.

Ok. I have read through the entire thing. The only thing I regret missing is the opprotunity to discuss some of the errors I see in this argument. I will not go into everything, but I will say that I think alot of verses are being taken out of context. Unintentional as this error might be, it is skewing the message of the Gospel. I don't think that we realize just how important this topic is. This isn't some debate on musical instruments...(unimportant to the central message of Christ)...this isn't a debate on the order of the end times...(irrevelent to the message also)....this conversation strikes at the very CORE of Christianity and causes divisivness in the body of Christ. Think about it. We have two differing opinions. One says One says ETERNAL LIFE is a FREE gift for those who believe. This one also leans on truckloads of verses, but the central one is this: There really isn't any other question other than how long is eternity? This passage speaks PLAINLY of the secure state of the believer. To say otherwise is saying that we are strong enough to take ourselves out of the hand of Christ. There is also something you need to be aware of. The writer of Hebrews touched on this in detail when he was talking about our salvation. Look here at the following: because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. ok...alot here, but Iw ant to give you the context. He is talking about the difference between the yearly sacrifices of the Jews, verses the ONE TIME sacrifice of Christ out Lord. The rest speaks for itself. And the quote is from Jeremiah 31:33-34. Here is the passage: We are starting to see a pattern here. I could go on and on with Scripture after Scripture, but to no avail. What makes me think that my theology is more correct than someone else? What makes me think that my interpretation is the correct one? What we have to do is read...read...READ, ask God to reveal any untruth in us and replace it with His Truth, meditate on His answer. For me, ladies and gentlemen, this topic of of great concern to me because I don't want to see anyone in the body of Christ become effectively uneffective. I don't want to sound like a mis-guided Calvanist...I am not. There are problems with that theology just as there are problems with just about any man-made theology. But I DO want to point out that we are talking about extremes here, and those cases are not a good example of the whole of Christianity. I want to touch on just one more topic though if you will allow. We can all agree on the folowing three qualities that belong to GOd and Him alone: 1. Omnipotence: Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. There are too many to list, but here are some key verses for you to look up: Psalm 57:5, Psalm 135:6, Isaiah 26:4, Jeremiah 32:17, 27; Matthew 19:26, Rev. 19:6. 2. Omnipresence: Present everywhere simultaneously. Again...verses: Deuteronomy 4:39; Isaiah 66:1; Psalm 139:5-12, Jer. 23:23,24; Ephesians 4:10. 3. Omniscience: Having total knowledge; knowing everything. Last one: Psalm 33:13; Psalm 147:5; Isaiah 40:13,14; John 2:24. Now, I don't want to seem like I am throwing Scripture at you. This is just in case you want to read them...here are just some of the passages. My point is that God is unlimited in knowledge, power, space and time. With a Gos that inhabits eternity, how could He NOT know that someone would be saved? How could He NOT know what would happen in the future? Where does prophesy come from? Don't you think that at the VERY beginning that God...the Creator of the UNIVERSE knew who you were? Or do you think when you were born He sat in heaven and said..."Well, there's another one I have to get to know!" Do you think that an ALL POWERFUL God would not be able to hold on to you when you fell away in sin? If we continue in sin...yes...He gives us over to our debased minds and lets us drink of our thrist for the sins of the flesh. But let me get one thing straight: THIS IS FOR NON BELIEVERS!! For His children...He chasens them with HIS Spirit that INDWELLS US! Anyway...I think I started to get off topic again...my apologies. Final conclution: We are saved unconditionally when we repent of our sin and believe that Jesus died to save us. I believe the promise He gave to those that believe is eternal life. I believe this CANNOT and WILL NOT be taken away from us. I believe that as a GENUINE Christian, you will not WANT to satisfy the desires of the flesh...though our flesh is weak and we sometimes fall down. I belive that our assurance is in our conviction that God's promises are REAL and He will not let us stay down. For those that are called by His name...for those that are called according to His purpose... Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen. Ephesians 3:20 By His Blood; ~Sagz

Now this is a discussion that is in the spirit of love! I used to have a problem with this very thing as well. It is when I came back to the Lord. I will not go into detail because I posted this in another thread, but suffice it to say that these are similar enough I feel it is important to add my thoughts to this topic. Unfortunately, It is Sunday morning and I am getting ready for church. So with a humble heart I take my stance and pray you allow me to expound later tonight. The unpardonable sin is the rejection of the work of Christ and the Spirit that keeps us until the end times. By this I mean that you can curse the Lord's name, you can reject the Spirit, but if you die before you come to repentace.....if you die without the blood of Christ washing you as white as snow, then there is no second chance. I will give supporting Scripture later tonight on this subject, but for now....I have business to attend to. By His Blood; ~Sagz

Hello Centurion! Welcome to Worthy Boards. As you can see, I am new as well. I couldn't help but think that your topic was in fact a very common one when it comes to our Lord Jesus Christ! What do I mean? How are they related? You pointed out the ease with which you were able to join this forum...in John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." Jesus points out the ease with which we can have a direct line of communication with God! Alot of people, when introduced with the choice say the very same thing....Is that it? All I have to do is believe that God sent His Son for me and I'm saved? I have heard about alot of other religions and they usually make you do alot more than just believe! I'm not saying it's wrong, I actually like it, it's just strange to me! What a beautiful statement! Thank you for letting me share this with you and again...WElcome to Worthy Boards!! By His Blood; ~Sagz

Again, I have to ask forgiveness, for I did not read all the posts. This is a topic that is of GREAT intrest to me because of my personal testimony. I cannot, nor do I want to get into this at this time, but let us sufice to say that in /93, I came to know the Lord. In '94, I "shook my free will fist at Him." In fact, I told Him that I could live my life better than He could! (In retrospect, this is a dangerous position to take with the Almighty! I don't recommend this to anyone). Just about 7 years later, in 2001, I moved back home to REPENT of my former life WHILE STILL A CHRISTIAN. I felt the leading of God to do this, as He was calling me back home so He could restore me in my shattered faith. Notice I didn't say lost. While back home, and almost immediately, I ran into the verses about the tree not bearing good fruit. The brances were cut off and thrown into the fire. This is the same fire that is talked about that we will all go through to have our works tested at the judgement seat. This fire is not the fire of hell. It is not the lake of fire which is the second death. This was my very concern when I moved back home. I was afraid I had lost my salvation. What is often misunderstood is that this fire is for refining. When it says in Luke 3:9 "The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire", it is saying that the bad part of the tree is cut off and burned to make way for God to cause some good to grow in it's place. He is REFINING that tree, not destroying it. Notice He didn't cut the root out! If it is true that we can lose our salvation, and therefore our entrance into Heaven, then there is no grace, and God can be called a liar. Note the following: Notice in this verse that Jesus was saying that He gives His sheep eternal life. His sheep know His voice. The follow Him. Underlined is the important part of this verse. It speaks more than ANY other verse about the secure state of our salvation. NO-ONE!! NOt even OURSELVES can snatch us out of Jesus' Hands!!! What a comforting thought. What a blessing. This verse is very often looked over for the simplicity of it. If we have listened to His voice, recognized it for Who it belonged to, and followed that voice, then we HAVE eternal life and NOT ONE PERSON DEAD OR ALIVE can do ANYTHING to change that. Now concider the opposite. If we indeed can lose our salvation and need to keep asking Jesus into our hearts to save us? Where is faith? Can we not, by this argument say the same thing that we sin...oh well, we can just ask to be saved again? No logic in it. Paul spoke of this: If salvation is by faith plus ANYTHING else, it is not faith...it is no longer grace! It has become works! But when we read that BY GRACE we were saved through FAITH....NOT by works, we have to assume that works is no longer a factor iin our SALVATION. Sanctification is a different story. Versus such as Romans 12:2 and Ephesians 6:10-18 and a HOST of other versus support the need for continual renewal of our minds and attitudes toward God. We want to be sure to serve Him out of our DESIRE to please our Lord...to whom we are bond-servants. It is NOT out of a wroks based system that we do this...it is out of our love for our Creator...Sustainer...and SAVIOR. It is out of a deep and longing desire to please Him with our lives that we abide His rules. Indeed...our very lives are a worship sacrifice to Him. Romans12:1. When we as Christians sin...the need for repentance is preached to make sure that we stay effective for the Gosple of Christ. If we continue in sin....it says in Hebrews 6:4-6 "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." This continues to be a curious point...however, in my studies, it seems to me that this is telling us to be careful that we don't continue in sin. If we do...we fall away from our faith (like I did so many years ago) and our hearts are hard....and we loos the ability to repent because we publicly disgrace the Son of God AGAIN! We don't lose our SALVATION!! We are ineffective for our Lord because we riducule Him with our disobidiance. We are in fact still Christians....we do in fact still inherit eternal life in the heavenlies, howver we don't get the rewards we would if we remain diligent in the faith and remain true to the Word of God. Little children obey without question. They don't know any better. They obey out of innocent love and respect for thier parents. Little children don't question the authority of the ones who are in charge of them. This is what Jesus was talking about in these versus. It wasn't a warning, it was a tangible picture of how we are supposed to act out our faith! . This one is alittle harder, so let us back up...expand our view of the Scripture and see what is really being said: Ok. Here, we see that we are not talking about a warning to believers that act like this, we are seeing a description of the types of acts that come out of the sinful nature that we all have. There is no talk about those that are believers and act like this...it is simply a list of things to look for in others lives. WE can argue that this is for the "babes" in Christ to be able to determine if someone is really a Christian or not. Remember, Galatians was written to people that had abandoned the faith for false doctrine. So we see that Paul is trying to restore these babes into the proper set of doctrine. This is evedent in the list Paul gives next. WE see the list of the Fuit of the Spirit. We also see that those who are believers have crucified the sinful nature and now seek after the fruit of the Spirit. He further drives the point home when he takes the SAME SIDE as these wayward Galatians and says "Since WE live by the Spirit, let US also keep in step with the Spirit." Nowhere in this passage do we see that people that have fallen away from the faith have lost thier place in heaven. They have merely lost thier place in thier effectiveness for Christ. Therefore, based on this short study of Scripture, I must conclude that is is quite impossible for us to lose our salvation. In my humble opinion, and from a matter of fact, (for I have yet to ask again Jesus into my heart), the security of our salvatioin rests firmly in the hands of a Loving, Graceful, Merciful, and LONG SUFFERING God who remembers our sin no more once we lay them at the cross. To God be the Glory...Great things He has done! Romans 9:32...stated above bears repeating...but yhis time...I want to elaborate and expand the verse so we can get the clear picture: The simplicity of the gospel message continues to be a stumbling block for us in the 21st century. I know I have caused myself great and needless pain on several occations with this very thing. But one thing I DO know for sure: I once was blind.....but now I see!!! Let's give a praise offering to God! AMEN!! By His Blood; ~Sagz

I am new at this so bear with me please. I am kind of confused about how wee went from viewing nakedness to getting drunk, but I want to comment on the wine part. I have debated this over and over with friends who take both sides. Also, about 4 months ago I was listening to I think Adrian Rogers on the raidio and he spoke about drinking. My view used to be that drinking was alright in moderation. I.E. special events, holidays and such. I even went as far as to say that it was ok to have a drink every now and then as long as you didn't drink to get buzzed/loopy/drunk/smashed. To be honest I can't remember when the last time I had a drink. I will tell you why. In Romans Chapter 14 it talks about a man with strong faith and a man with weak faith. It speaks of one man not seeing a problem eating every kind of food under the sun and another one who only eats vegetables. One man thinks a certain day is more important than another; another man thinks they are all the same. The point of this chapter is to help us all understand that we are different! And as long as we have FAITH, weak or strong, we are ALL going to be resurected into Glory. Verse 1 states "Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things." (NKJV) If we are all God's children who believe in the finished work of the Cross and the saving power of the Blood of Christ, then we are all part of one family....one body. I have done a pretty in depth search about a great many topics that aren't specifically stated as sin in the bible and I have come away with the conclusion that there are outright sins....strictly forbidden by the Word of God. There are things that we are allowed to discern for ourselves; eat pork or romain lettus...wear a tie to church or shorts and flip-flops. God cares less about our outward appearance and much more about the state of our heart. Where our mind is focused. The point here I think is to understand what God says to do in YOUR life. After all, it is a PERSONAL relationship we have. We have to INDIVIDUALLY accept Christ as Savior. I can't become more rightrous by my father reading the bible and not me. It is I that has determine (through prayer and meditation) the will of God for MY life. If he wants me to be a pastor, and calls my best friend to be.....a cook, then I will be a pastor and he will be a cook and neither of us can judge the other because we are both following the will of God. About drinking...In the context of the culture....it is true that there were very few options...so wine was drunk on a regular basis. In todays culture, we have about 100 different versions of water, soda, fruit drinks, milk, kool-aid...the list goes on. Do we really need to drink alcohol today when we have such a varitey of *safe* drinks? Probably not, but the Bible doesn't say that light or even occational drinking is wrong. It says that drunkeness is...and that is where we have to be careful, but if someone can drink and not lose themselves in the drink, then so be it. I can't judge them. Thus I come to the point of Chapter 14....verses 14-23 The Law of Love I love each and every one of you. I hope I made a little sense, and pray that I am not out of place in saying this. By His Blood; ~Sagz