GentleGiant

I just read this thread today and wanted to pipe-in another way of discribing the Trinity. This came from my pastor. Think of the physical sun that we see in the daylight sky. The ACTUAL (physical) sun is equivalent to the God the Father The LIGHT (the power-life-giving-force) that the sun gives off would be God the Son (Jesus) The HEAT (what we feel) that the sun gives off would be God the Spirit (Holy Spirit) As the sun does not come to the earth nor touch the earth, God the Father does not physically come to us. (That was actually Jesus's job 2000 years ago!) As the sun's light shines on us and gives us the ability to see, and provides the energy/power to cause things to grow and live, God the Son (the living Word or Power of God) is the energy or life-force of our human spirit(soul) and about 2000 year ago came to this earth (physically) as Jesus the Human Being. Jesus did exist before his physical birth on this earth but not as a physical being as we know it. As the sun's heat is felt to us on this earth, so the Holy Spirit can be 'felt' to those of us who are Believers. We can't see, taste, touch, or hear the sun's heat, but we can feel it's presence. Likewise, we can't taste, touch or see the Holy Spirit, but our human spirit can experience the 'feel' or presence of the Holy Spirit. The existance of God (Father,Son,HolySpirit) cannot be fully grasped or understood by human logic alone. God's ways, knowledge and wisdom are far above ours. For any human being to say, there is no God because I can't logically comprehend him or it, is like my 12 yr old saying that the subject of Physics does not exist. Rather the truth is that she just hasn't taken Physics so as to understand. Her understanding is not to that point. BTW... I am no uneducated dolf as some "logical un-believers" would assume of Christians (because we believe in the Un-seen). I have a Graduate Degree in Computer Science with some limited studies in Physics, and have worked 25 years as a Software Engineer. How about some Fuzzy Abstract Logic ... 1+1+1=1 Father+Son+H.S.=God Speaking of the UNSEEN ... How do you un-believers know that the Laws of Physics exist... or more specific, how do you know that the Law of Lift exists? You can't SEE the Law of Lift in operation that causes the airplane to lift into the air. You can't TOUCH the Law of Lift. You can't TASTE the Law of Lift. Then how do you know that it exists? Because it works?!?!! Someone discovered the Law of Lift and educated others about it, it was applied and the plane lifts into the air. An unbeliever saying that God does not exist because he cannot SEE Him, would be like me saying that an airplane sitting there in front of me on the tarmac cannot fly in the air. I don't see any evidence of that plane's ability to fly. It is when I apply the Physical Laws that I experience the flying of the plane. Likewise, it is when we apply the Spiritual Laws of God that we experience the reality of God. Sadly too many Christians do not correctly apply God's principles (or spiritual laws) and therefore have NO evidence in their lives that God really exists, therefore they have NO proof to unbelievers that God exists. All they have is what someone told them. Jesus and the early Disciples learned how to apply the Spirtual Laws of God and thus demonstrated physical evidence of something supernatural that was understood as only being from God. Too bad in our modern society that we have denied the supernatural of God and therefore have no or little tangible evidence. No wonder we have a world full of unbelief. All we have left is humanistic logic, which cannot understand the higher things of God. Not to be insulting to the (entirely) logic minded, but it takes a human spirit made "alive" by God to begin to fully understand the things of God. You can't experience the Kingdom of God until you jump on for the ride, like you can't experience the Law of Lift of the airplane until you jump on (it) for the (plane) ride. Either way you have to take that initial 'step of faith'.

Ovedya talkes about the "preaching of another gospel" and "another Christ" and "another Jesus". I hear people talking about ministers "preaching another gospel". What gospel TEXT is that? What religious document are they preaching from, if they are not preaching from the Gospels of the New Testament? If these people are not preaching about the Jesus of the Bible, then what Jesus in history are they preaching about? I guess I need some enlightenment into the differences between the Jesus of the Bible and this other Jesus that these ministers are preaching about, so I myself can know WHY what they preach is not Biblical.

Here is a thought... IF Jesus did not die spiritually, then how could His 'bodily' sacrifice pay for our "spiritual" salvation. It had to be a spirutual sacrifice to atone for our spiritual deadness. The spiritual death of Jesus does not negate Him being God in the flesh, the Word incarnate. How did Jesus become spiritually alive on the third day, after being spiritually dead???... the spoken Word of God via Jesus himself and the prophets before Him, stating that the Messiah would rise again from the dead/hell. Jesus, Himself, never committed any sin. He did however TAKE UPON Himself, on the cross, OUR sin, which brought about the death of His spirit, as a sacrifice for the spiritual deadness of our human spirits. Jesus was our 'sacrifical lamb'. He took my place and your place in the pit of hell. If not... then he did not actually become my sacrifice and your sacrifice. On that third day, because of the Word of God, Jesus' spirit was made alive again, defeating Death, and providing for our salvation, new (spiritual) birth.

In the past few years, I have been learning more about the Jewish customs and traditions, which has actually led me to BETTER UNDERSTAND various facets of the Christian Faith/New Covenant. Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi. We are of the Body of Christ. I do not find this (learning of the Jewish traditions) offensive. To me, the Jewish religion is the foundation of the Christian Faith. IMO, the better I understand Jewish traditions (like the Passover Seder), the more I understand my Christianity and the WHYs of different parts of the New Covenant. At our (Methodist) church, we go into a deep study of the Old Covenant and Jewish practices and traditions in our Disciple Study classes. We also incoorporate the Passover Seder into our class, going into a detailed explanation of each part of it. We study all the Feasts of the Old Testament. This Study really opened up my eyes to Old Testament... and the first time in my life, I find the Old Testament a very EXCITING document. To thumb one's nose at the Old T. and the richness of the traditions of the Old Covenant is to deny oneself a deeper understanding of the Foundation of our New Covenant. Just to make something clear... I do not live under the Law the Old Covenant, because as scripture says, we are no longer under the Law but under Grace. I am a Disciple of Christ, and therefore follow the New Covenant. But the teachings of the Old help to understand the New. And activities such as practicing the Passover Seder help in sharing the understanding of these Old Covenant foundations. It in no way means that we are thumbing our noses at our Christianity. Allow me to ask you this... What do you think the Last Supper (what we now call communion) was? A brand new tradition that Jesus started the night before His crucifixtion? No. It was part of the Jewish Passover tradition. For the Christian it has taken on 'additional' meaning. Peace to All this Good Friday. Today's mourning will turn to dancing on Sunday. Bryan (the GentleGiant)

Here are some tidbits regarding our school district's spending of money: My kid in middle school can't bring home a book to study for a test or do homework, because the school doesn't have enough copies for each student in the sixth grade to have their own copy. The school board's reply is, "we just doesn't have the funds". Yet at the same time, they can spend $110,000 on a new weight room for the football team, so as to make them 'more competitive'. Their record since getting the new weight room... 0-30. Our school board just started the construction on a new sports stadium... at the price of $13,000,000 because the bleachers were getting in a state of disrepair. The new design includes state-of-the-art this and state-of-the-art that... At the same time, our junior high school building is over capacity, and they are in dire need of more classroom space. Some classes are being held in the auditorium. The current school board president is the husband of my wife's one friend. When I approach him about these concerns he just laughs at me, and says, "I don't want to hear it".

One of my friend's father (I'll call him JM) is a Primerica salesman. JM invited me to one of their recruitment meetings. I am familiar with Multi Level Marketing. As mentioned, Primerica is a MLM and is a legal company. Now... you may have issues with MLM's. To call it a "pyramid scheme" is incorrect and harsh. I find that those that call legitimate MLM's a "pyramid scheme" are those that take issue with the MLM concept and are more comfortable in the Multi-Tiered Corporate world, just happily working for someone else, making their boss(s) rich. There is nothing at wrong with working for corporate America. Just for the record, I do work in the corporate world. Actually, a typical company is more of a 'pyramid scheme' than a MLM. No matter how hard I work at my job, I still make the same amount of money. What I get paid isn't even what my boss decides. Our Union decides pay rates. I could bust a hump for 8 hours or I could sit here all day reading discussion boards, doing no 'official work' and still make the same pay. Anyway... this thread is not about MLM vs Corporate. I'll get back to the topic of Primerica. Integrity of any particular Primerica GROUP or OFFICE does vary from team to team. Just like here where I work in the office. Integrity and productivity and results vary from office to office. As "gudrulz" and "Marnie" have stated, Primerica HAS done a lot to promote better services/products to the consumer, and I'll add... give the traditional insurance companies something to think about and worry about. Did I join up with Primerica when JM took me to this "Interview" or "Business Presentation". No. I decided that this was not something that I wanted to do. We all have our 'cup of tea'. Mine was not selling insurance. I'm a computer weenie, and I am also passionate about health and nutrition. Those are my interests.

I completely agree with WhySoBlind on this one: "Exactly. People make such a big deal about this, when it is really so simple. He said in plain text it was a "messenger of satan". That is, the Lord allowed an evil spirit to torment Paul in order to keep him humble." It is right there in black-and-white. Here is an article that I pulled from my notes: --------------- What About Paul's Thorn in the Flesh? ---------------------- Tradition has taught that Paul's thorn in the flesh was some type of physical ailment or sickness. If you will take time to study the Word, you will find that this is not true. Paul clearly states in 2 Corinthians 12:7 that because of the abundance of revelations he had received, he was given a thorn in the flesh and the thorn was "a messenger of Satan." The Greek word translated as messenger always refers to someone who is sent and denotes a definite personality. This same word for messenger is translated in other verses of the New Testament as "angel." Angels, as God's messengers, are created beings with personalites. Satan's messengers would be in the same category. In contrast, sickness is not a personality, nor a messenger. Paul's thorn in the flesh was a wicked spirit or angel sent by Satan to buffet him. Buffet means to strike repeatedly. God does not send wicked spirits against people in the Body of Christ for any reason (James 1:13). He sent the Holy Spirit and has given us His Word, which is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness to discipline and guide us (see John 16:13; 2 Timothy 3:16-17). The phrase "thorn in the flesh" is a figure of speech or illustration. It is similar to calling someone who irritates us "a pain in the neck." Likewise, Paul's thorn was an evil angel who caused him great irritation, but not with sickness or disease. In 2 Corinthians 11:24-26, Paul lists what some of these "irritations" were - being imprisoned, stoned, beaten, shipwrecked and attacked by angry mobs. Other examples of the persecutions Paul suffered are found in Acts 13:45, 50 and Acts 14:5-7, 19-20. The people in these verses were instruments used by the source of persecution - the messenger of Satan. This evil angel was assigned to Paul for one reason - to stop the Word from being preached. Wherever Paul went, the messenger of Satan worked to incite the people against him. All the persecutions that Paul suffered were Satan's attempt to steal the Word from him (see Mark 4:14-20). Satan will see to it that no believer is exalted above the measure of the Word that actually lives in him. The Word that is alive in your heart is the word on which you steadfastly act. You will have to stand in faith for every word of revelation knowledge you receive. Many have used Galatians 4:13 to support their traditional teaching that Paul's thorn was sickness or disease: "You know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first." The Greek word for infirmities means "want of strength; weakness, indicating inability to produce results." This translation is used in 1 Corinthians 2:3: "And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling." Like many believers, when Paul first started ministering, he never felt he had the natural ability to do the job God called him to do. But the next verse goes on to tell us he was obedient anyway and the Holy Spirit made up the difference with a demonstration of His power: "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (1 Corinthians 2:4). Paul's infirmity or weakness of the flesh provided an opportunity for the Holy Spirit to do a mighty work. That's why Paul could say, "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities [lack of strength], that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities [weakness], in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong" (2 Corinthians 12:9-10). Our weakness is no longer a problem once we learn to rely on the Holy Spirit's power. God had given Paul the revelation of the authority of the believer. Paul had authority over Satan in the Name of Jesus - just as you do. But he had to enforce his authority by directly commanding the evil spirit to desist in his maneuvers against him. However, in this instance, Paul sought deliverance from the Lord instead. "For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me" (2 Corinthians 12:8). If you want results, do not ask God to deal with the devil for you. Just as God told Moses to drive out the inhabitants of the land (Numbers 33:52), He instructs you to drive out the demons or evil spirits (Mark 16:17). "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" (James 4:7). When Paul asked the Lord to make this messenger of Satan depart from him, the Lord said, "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness" (2 Corinthians 12:9). He did not say that the messenger would not depart. He was saying to Paul, "My favor is enough. For when you do not have the ability to humanly overcome, you have My Name to stop Satan's attack and cast out the devil." The Greek word dunamis, which is translated strength in this verse, can also be translated as power. We get our English words dynamite and dynamo from it. It is the same word Jesus used in Acts 1:8 when He said, "Ye shall receive power [dunamis], after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you." Weymouth's translation of 2 Corinthians 12:9 reads, "My grace suffices for you, for power is perfected in weakness" (The New Testament in Modern Speech). This is the opposite of the traditional teaching that Paul had no victory over the thorn in the flesh. Paul lived to be an old man and then said that he could not decide whether to stay here or to go be with the Lord (Philippians 1:22-24). He needed to stay here for the Church's sake, but he yearned to go be with Jesus. He did not leave this world until he and the Lord were ready. This is not the description of a man who lived with sickness and disease. Satan's angel, the thorn in the flesh, could gain no victory over Paul through adverse circumstances because the power of Christ rested on him. "I have learned in any and all circumstances, the secret of facing every situation..." (Philippians 4:12, The Amplified Bible). He revealed this secret in the next verse: "I have strength for all things in Christ Who empowers me - I am ready for anything and equal to anything through Him Who infuses inner strength into me." When Paul in himself was weak, Paul in Christ was strong. Satan's angel, the thorn in the flesh that we have heard so much about, never did overcome Paul and the power of God. Satan could do no more than irritate or annoy him like a thorn in his flesh - a temporary discomfort which could be removed. Paul was a covenant man; he ran the race and won. He knew his authority as a believer. He knew the shield of faith would quench all the fiery darts of the wicked (Ephesians 6:16). When he began using his faith, the Lord was able to deliver him out of all the afflictions and persecutions (2 Timothy 3:10-11). Paul's thorn in the flesh is a tradition that Satan has used to deceive and rob many people. Using it as an excuse, tradition says that God gets glory from sickness because the world sees how marvelously the Christian bears pain and agony. Tradition never adds up to the right answer - anyone knows that the world has all the pain and agony it can stand. The world wants a way out of sickness, not another way into it. If we allow the traditions of men to usurp authority over God's Word, we will be helpless in the face of sickness. God will be able to do nothing for us, because we have made the Word "of none effect" in our lives (Matthew 15:6). ------------------------------------------

Wow... does this ever touch a sore spot with me. This behavior of turning on the flashers to go through a red light and then turn the flashers off after getting thru, just to not have to wait at the red light has been observed frequently in our town. We have three town policemen that live in our development. Two of them are hot tempered, arrogant and feel like they can do just whatever they want. I have personally observed one of them drinking and driving. I'll call him Officer Rick. Officer Rick wanted to cite me (a neighbor) one day because I mentioned to him about driving too fast in our development. He is notorious for breaking the speed limit, but he feels that he can do this because he is a cop. A few years ago, he actually ran my wife off the road into the ditch because he was in a hurry and was driving down the middle the road. Then last year, because my wife and I were supporting a political candidate that was opposing the candidate that Officer Rick's wife was campaigning for, we had another incident. The same day that a political sign went up in our yard, my father-in-law got a parking citation while parked in front of our house. The car was not parked exactly the way that the police felt it should be parked. Several other cars in the developement were parked the exact same way at the exact same time, but we were the only residence that had a car cited. We took our case to the police Chief, and he didn't even want to hear us. So my wife took it to the Mayor, who did some butt chewing on the Police Chief and two police officers. The Mayor's office ruled this incident "police harrasment". Since then Officer Rick's wife has attempted four near misses of myself, my daughter and my son, with her car, while we were walking or standing along the edge of the street... and these are wide streets. The one incident involving my daughter, a neighbor clearly witnessed Rick's wife, intentionally swerve toward Daniele, only to just miss her by less than a foot. This policeman's wife denys all four incidents and the Chief of Police dismisses our claims on grounds that we are making false claims to get back at her for the political sign incident. I was raised to respect the Law, and in fact I do have friends who are law officers are different levels, so I don't hate policemen. I just hate those that abuse their position for their own gain, and even rub it in your face.

I grew up being taught that it was sin to work on Sunday, and that if you worked on Sunday, you were "a sinner". I've learned better since I've gotten out of that legalistic environment. In these times, with most businesses being seven-day-a-week business, this is sometimes hard to avoid. Census figures in the US show that 20 to 23 percent of workers work non-traditional (Mon thru Friday, dayshift) jobs. We have several people in our church membership that have to work on Sundays on a rotational basis, and some have to work every Sunday. Mark 2:27 says "The sabbeth was made for man, and not man for the sabbath". I personally interpret that as follows. The practice of taking a 'sabbeth' was for the benefit of man... to give his body that day of rest each week. The second part of that verse says, "and NOT man for the sabbath". Man is NOT to be slave to the sabbath. The 'sabbath rule' was made for OUR benefit. God designed our bodies, and He knows that our bodies need proper rest. It IS good to gather as believers to worship together, and the sabbath is the best choice of days, to do so. Granted... we should be in an attitude of worship as much as feasibly possible. Worship of God is not restricted to only one day a week. Worship to me is a 'charging of my batteries'. I have friends who work Sunday thru Thursday. Saturday is their 'day of sabbath' when they relax and recharge and focus on God and his goodness.

Regarding the 'stamp' for hunting 'upland birds'... it was in the news last night that the non-aquisition of this stamp ahead of time was neither Cheney's nor his staff fault. Cheney's staff DID ask the state game department what permits he needed. The Texas Game Dept admits that they FORGOT to mention that Cheney needed this fairly new stamp that just came into existance in the past 5 months. It was a local game warden that noticed the missing stamp. Neither Cheney nor his staff were aware of the new permit, because they were not told it existed.

Recently my pastor was severely reprimanded by our District Superintendent for his stand against sin and sinful lifestyles. In the name of "not offending anyone", our DS doesn't want the churches under her charge to preach against sin, unless it is the "sin of intolerance" and "sin of conservatism". As she was heard to say,

No matter what you use for a salad dressing, here is a practice that my wife and I started doing when eating salad. Instead of pouring the dressing over the salad, (and mixing it around), do this... Pour a little of the dressing into a small container, then dip your fork into the dressing before spearing your salad. You will use less dressing that way, therefore eating less of it, and you still get plenty of the good taste of whatever dressing you are using.

I am working a long day today, and I will be working a double shift on New Years Day. As a Database Administrator for a large computer center, we always spend New Year's weekend working long hours to convert all our databases and files over for the New Year, before the first workday of the new year. The overtime pay is good for paying off those Christmas gifts, but the wife and kids hate not having me around for New Years Day. My prayer and New Years Resolution is that I will get another, better job this coming year so that I can have my holidays off! Have a Happy, Prosperous and Totally Fulfilled New Year to ALL!!! In Christ's Service, Bryan (the GentleGiant)

Some of those posts talk about The Body of Christ being in the churches, and churches and denominations (themselves) not being a part of the Body of Christ (or Christ's Church). So true. I grew up in a Brethren denomination, during college attended first a Methodist church and then an Independent church, and after college went back to the Brethren church. Thru the years, because of the musical gift the Lord has given me, I've been in Catholic churches, Episcapol, Luthern, Assembly of God, Church of God, Methodist, Independent, and probably some I've forgotten. I now attend a Methodist church, because I married a Methodist girl. I go where the Lord leads me. As someone else stated.. I don't identify with any particular denominiation. I identify with being a member of the Body of Christ first and foremost. In my own current church as well as many of the one's that I've visited and frequented, there are those that are truely members of the Body of Christ because of them making Jesus the Lord of their Life, and there are those that are there just to (as I call it), fulfill their social and conciensious obligation to ritual and tradition. In our Methodist congregation, we have a lot of good and well-meaning folks that have never received the Lord's salvation and made Jesus the Lord of their lives. I've seen it in other churches as well. To try to answer your initial question about "which church" to attend, here is what I do. Pray that the Lord would lead you to where your gifts and talents should be used. Sometimes we want to attend a church where WE get OUR needs fed. There is nothing wrong with that... but maybe God wants you to be a spark or catalyst in some congregation somewhere. Don't rely solely on one-day-a-week to get fed the Word and/or solely on your church or denomination for getting fed the Word. Seek some variety of Biblical learning on your own time. Stay diligent in your study and meditation, and take the time to verify everything you hear and read against scripture. There are gems of wisdom found in many streams. Even though we sometimes need to be cautious, we shouldn't be arrogant by being "our's only" minded. We might miss something that God is trying to tell us from an uncommon source. Pray consistantly, even when you have a free momment.

Here is something that may contribute. Last weekend on the History Channel there was a documentary about the fact that the Bath Party of the Arab World is an Arab Version of the Nazi Movement. The founders of the Bath Party were enamored with Adolph Hitler and his Nazi Party. They sent representatives to Germany in the years leading up to WW2 to learn about the Nazi movement and incorporated a lot of Nazism into the Bath Movement.