Franky67

Those who believe Isaiah 53.4 is referring to only spiritual healing, might be interested to know that Matthew believed that Jesus, indeed took our infirmities, and carried away our diseases. Reference Isaiah 53.4 NAS "Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried, yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of god, and aflicted." In Matthew 8.16,17 Matthew, referring to Isaiah's prophesy above, said.. "And when evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon posessed, and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill, in order that what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, saying ' He, Himself took our infirmities, and carried away our diseases.' " It's interesting here that Matthew correcty translates the words griefs, and sorrows to infirmities and diseases.

There are enough of Christians in the world, that if they just didn't watch the sit-coms, and other stuff that is anti-christian, then the programmers would sit up and take note. Sad thing is Christians watch that stuff, they also watch PG-13 and R rated movies, and justify it as OK. God says "Come out of her, my people."

But shane, men decided what is in the bible we have now, and are you saying they were ALL 100% led by the Spirit ? And do you think only those 1700 years ago are eligible to be led by the Spirit ? What if today someone found a glaring error, Who's to say they are not led by the Spirit ? Just food for thought.

Dear ayin jade, If you will refer to Matthew 8 verses 16, and 17 In these verses Matthew describes Jesus healing and casting out demons, then Matthew said that this was done to fulfill Isaiah's prophesy saying He, Himself took our infirmities,and carried away our diseases. Does this really speak of sin to you? James 5:14,15 says what I believe about healing, If we pray the way described, it says the one who is sick will be restored, I'm not WOF, or any other label, I just believe what my Lord says, no matter WHAT I see. do you believe these two verses?

IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and clense us of all unrighteousness. If we don't confess our sins to God, He won't forgive us. In confessing our sins, we make a vow with God not to do it again. If we slip and fall, we confess again, and He forgives us again, that's the growth process.

That's just the point I was trying to make, that the two comings are not the same event. Because the reason for His coming at the rapture is to take His church home, not to make war, as is described in Revelation, and not to die for our sins, as the Gospels describe. One previous post says all the comings are the same ( provides list of scriptures ), the scriptures in Jude mentions Him coming with His Saints, also in Revelation, How could they be the same, when in Hebrews He comes to take back His Saints, and Jude and Revelation, His Saints are already with Him ??? No way the same event ! One other thing, Hebrews says He appears to those who eagerly await Him. When He comes to make war, them folks ain't going to be happy to see Him, and that's when every eye will see Him, including those who pierced Him. No way the same event. I agree with You, runlikethewind.

I believe this is another description of the rapture I really believe this scripture below speaks of a second appearance of Jesus to those who are eagerly awaiting Him. Also He comes to save, but not from our sins, but from the wrath to come. ie, he comes without reference to sin. Notice also that this is the second appearance of Christ, an appearance, not a second coming, which indicates that this appearance is before the time of His coming, as described in revelation 19:11 Sequence I believe is: 1. Christ comes to earth born of a virgin to die for the sins of the world. 2. He appears in the air, and those who eagerly await Him will be with Him 3. He comes as in Revelation chapters 19, and 20 to rule and reign on earth for a thousand years. Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

Come on , Bi Bi In the meantime, the world will see what good statesmen the Palestinians are, how they'll get their act together and form a nice peace loving country to live next to Israel.

Take a look at post # 30

Let me just quote my NAS version, Job 2:3 "And the Lord said to Satan 'Have you considered my servant Job? for there is no one like him on earth,a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you,(satan) incited Me (God) against him, to ruin him without cause'. " Now this "ruining him without cause" was done in the past, back in chapter one, verse twelve. It was already done, It WAS allowed. Satan wasn't trying to persuade God, he DID persuade the Lord, If you believe the book of Job. It's already been done when God says what he said highlighted in red above, which is exactly what James 1:13 says COULD NOT HAPPEN, yet in Job 2:3, God Himself stated, what ever words yours, or other versions use for tempt, incited, movedst, or whatever, God said that's what satan did. I can find no other place in the word where God was tempted by evil, except in Job. So that tells me that the book of Job is not an accurate description of God, unless God decided to change His ways between the book of Job, and James, and many other places where He said He does not change, and connot be temped by evil.

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This is found in Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation, without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." Sounds like He is coming to receive us to Himself. He's already dealt with our sins on the cross. When He comes in Revelation 19, verse 11, He comes to Judge the nations and wage war, so that's not the same coming as described in Hebrews. Question is , when do these two comings (one is a coming, and one is an appearing ) take place ? If the catching up is at the end of tribulation, the two comings are at the same time. Opinions ??

These saints are those who were left after the rapture, because reading on to verse 15, and 16, it says as many as do not worship the beast and take his mark, will be killed. Also described in ch 20:4 So then, according to your doctrine, we would have the "Two churches" and "Two resurrections" problem; Jesus secretly takes the "first church" home. Then somehow people supposedly get saved with no witnesses for the next three and a half years. Then they are all killed. Then God sends the two prophets to witness up until just before the sedond coming. Then the "second church" formed during the tribulation is taken home after the Lord's return. However, according to the Bible, the "FIRST RESURRECTION" doesn't occur until the same day the beast is thrown into the bottomless pit in Revelation 20. So there isn't any scriptural room for a pre-trib rapture, or a second church age... So are you calling Jesus a liar then? Because Jesus specificly said they, the armies that return with him, were angels in the scriptures I quoted from Matthew's gospel!!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Revelation 17:14 says the forces of the world will wage war against the Lamb, and those with Him are called the chosen and faithful. Angels ? I think not.

These saints are those who were left after the rapture, because reading on to verse 15, and 16, it says as many as do not worship the beast and take his mark, will be killed. Also described in ch 20:4 No the ones in fine linen were not angels, they are the bride of Christ described in chapter 19, as to who came to earth with Christ. Not Angels, because 19:14 calls them armies of heaven , in white linen. Verse 7,8 describes the bride in white linen, ready for the wedding of the Lamb.

In John 9:41 Jesus says that if we have not the capacity to understand, then we are not held responsible for our sin. This is all I can find to support the belief that young children and mentally infirmed will be saved. Comment on this scripture ?

Revelation 13:5,6 says the church is in Heaven during the 42 months of tribulation, and Revelation 19 says the ones in white linen return to earth with Christ .

I am seeking the collective knowledge of you all, A question was ask of me , where is the age of accountability specified in God's word ? Then, in our discussion, the subject of the mental ability of the one witnessed to, and how does that effect how we witness to a person like that ?

How many here believe God can be tempted, incited, moved, or whatever other word there is for influenced, by evil ? Job chapter 2, verse 3 says exactly that, and even God Himself is quoted as saying it.

The one who refused to forgive, will not be forgiven by God. Matthew 6: 14,15

Thanks, Bluebird Like I said, although, I may come across as seeking signs, what I really yearn for is exactly what the Master spoke of, His will being done on earth as it is in Heaven. His perfect will IS done in Heaven, and He said He wanted us to pray that it be done here. We know what His will is, and we know what His will is not, it's in the book. Yes Church today is, sad to say, a spectator event, and it's taken about 1950 years for it to get to this point, but with a world wide end times revival, the Church can return to what Jesus said it should be. For the Church to be what it should be, all the saints must be in one accord, that is , EXPECTING God to, by His Holy Spirit, confirm His word whenever, and whereever it is given. That's not happening today, and I believe the cause is century after century of growing disbelief in the body of Christ. "And you shall seek Me and find Me, when you shall search for Me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13

Well, I see I havn't been able to get across what's on my heart. I am not looking for signs. What I am looking for is the Gospel presented the way Jesus said it should be. He said it many times, He made it very clear. I ask all here to study the scriptures below, and ask yourself if what is described below is going to happen next Sunday where you are, and ask yourself while your sitting there, as I have ask myself, "Is this all there is, this isn't what Jesus said would happen." What probably will happen is about 5 songs, and a 20 min. sermon, and an invitation to come forward to give your life to Christ. This is good, most of us were saved like this, I'm not against this, except for the fact that it falls far short of what is described below. Matthew 10:1 "And having summoned His twelve disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease, and every kind of sickness." 10:7,8 "And as you go, preach, saying, ' the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, raise the dead, clense the lepers, freely you have received, freely give'." Mark 6:7 "And He summoned the twelve, and began to send them out in pairs; and giving them authority over the unclean spirits." 6:12, 13 "And they went out and preached that men should repent, and they were casting out many demons, and were anointing with oil many sick people and healing them." 16:15 "And He said to them ' go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all creation." 16:17,18 " and these signs will accompany these who have believed; in My Name, they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues. They will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them, they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." 16:20 " And they went out and preached everywhere while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed." Luke 6:40 " A pupil is not above his teacher, but everyone, after he has been trained, will be like his teacher." 9:1,2 " And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons, and to heal diseases, and He sent them out to proclaim the Kingdom of God and to perform healing." 9:6 "And departing, they began going about among the villages, preaching the Gospel and healing everywhere." 10:1,2 "And now after this, the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them, two by two ahead of Him, to every city and place where He Himself was going to come, and He was saying to them, 'the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few, therefor, beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.' " 10:8,9 "And whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat what is set before you, and heal those in it who are sick, and say to them, 'the Kingdom of God has come near you'." John 10:24,25, 37,38 "The jews gathered around Him, and were saying to him, how long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you and you do not believe, the works that I do in my father's name, these bear witness of me, ............ and if I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe me; but if i do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me , and I in the Father." 14: 11-14 "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me, otherwise believe on account of the works themselves. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do, because I go to the Father, and whatever you ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in My Name, I will do it." Acts 4:29,30 "And now Lord, take note of their threats, and grant thy bondservants may speak thy word with all confidence, while thou dost extend thy hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of thy Holy servant, Jesus." 8:5,6 "And Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming Christ to them, and the multitudes with one accord were giving attention to what was said by Philip, as they heard and saw the signs which he was performing." 14:3 "Therefore they spent a long time there ( in Iconium) speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord, who was bearing witness to the Word of His Grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands." 1 Corinthians 2:4,5 "And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God." 4:19,20 "But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I shall find out, not the words of those who are arrogant, but their power, for the Kingdom of God does not consist in words, but in power."