undone

I'm not addressing anything. I am merely passing on information. I did not write the book or do the research.

News flash! The church typically meets in buildings! sw You asked for input, I gave some. But you do understand that the church is the Body of Christ, and we, as Christians, are that body, right? A pretty basic biblical concept. I recommend a recent book called "Revolutionary" by George Barna. It describes the latest research/polling data with regards to the "church." The Barna Group is a fairly well trusted Christian polling group and the trends revealed by this data are disturbing to any Christian who assembles in this traditional manner. The "News Flash" is that more and more people are choosing to stay away from the politics and social club atmosphere of the typical institutional "church" setting. If the trend continues, we'll be seeing "church" doors closing at an alarming pace. Barna's data suggests Christians are finding new ways to assemble and worship. Whether that be at home, on the golf course, online, Christian seminars, crusades, concerts, or where ever. Many of these folks consider the Body of Christ as the church and that before the institution of the corporate church setting, Christians got along just fine. As a matter of fact, they grew the church at an astonishing pace against some incredible odds. The Barna Group has been fairly accurate several times in the past with regards to their data analysis so anyone interested shouldn't simply write this off. Barna tries to tell folks who are not happy with this information not to "shoot the messenger." They are simply reporting the findings of their data. There's a whole lot more to the book and I encourage you to consider it if you've not already read it.

We are the Church, not a building.

............there'll be much mistletoin' and hearts will be glowin' so be of good CHEEEEEER!!! It's the most wonderful time, It's the most wondeful time.......OF THE YEAR!!!!!

Wasn't the Darwin family partial to maples? Or was it oaks?

Do you have physical evidence of that fact? Is there something you can pick up and say "this is proof"? Is there physical evidence you have a mind? Something you can pick up and say "this is proof"? I'm sure few people seriously doubt the existence of the mind. So isn't this along the same lines as a spirit? Soul? Consciousness?

RH, Here are some scriptures that speak to what you've said. 1 Corinthians 13 (NIV) Love 1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. James 1:27 (NIV) 27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. 1 John 2:9-11 (NIV) 9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him[a] to make him stumble. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him. 1 John 3:11-20 (NIV) Love one another 11This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. 13Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. 16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. ___________________________________________________________________________ RH, In your search for knowledge, I pray that you don't miss the chance to know the one true God. I realize much of your mission here on Worthy is to test drive your ideas and see where they go. In doing so, you've encountered all kinds of reactions from the brothers and sisters who participate here. You mustn't base your evalution of Christianity solely on these posts. The bible is the best source for knowledge of our faith. We are all on a lifelong journey of discovering it's truths and therefore are prone to make mistakes. One thing we have in common is trusting in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins and the free gift of eternal life. In past posts, you've questioned how we can be sure that this way is THE way. It boils down to being called by the Spirit. A call that's common among all of us and is unmistakable. A call that began with the conviction of our sin that led us to repentence. Are you not convicted of your sin? Do you not fear God? Do you know that if you are judged by the holy standards of the 10 commandments on Judgement Day that you too, as all of us, are guilty as charged if you only broke one of these commandments once in all your life? We've demonstrated in many ways why Jesus can be trusted. There are no other systems of faith that equal Christianity. No other system (within common orthodox faiths) provides grace to cover your sin thus removing the burden to live a holy life on your own. No other "religious" leader/founder claimed to be God and proved it. No other but Jesus gave His life for YOU and bore your due punishment for you. Many have put Christianity to the test and have failed to prove it false. I hope you will let the Spirit speak to your heart. Please pray that He will reveal the truth to your heart and mind. Admit that your "scientific" mind fights your ability to let your guard down. Humble yourself and reach out to Him. Tell Him your willing to meet Him halfway if He'll come the other half and He will. Don't expect you'll understand it all at first but understand, like I said before, that it's a lifelong journey. Don't expect that you can live it out perfectly because you can't. If you could, Jesus wouldn't have needed to come and die for you. Your above post shows that there is a soft part of your heart. Soften it the rest of the way and let Him in to dwell with you. I promise, you will not regret it. There's not a Christian here who hasn't been there, who doesn't understand your personal struggle. Your desire to deny Him. Your fear of giving in to something like this. WE ALL HAVE BEEN THERE in some way or another. A true desire for Him produces a change that is unmistakable. It could simply be a weight lifted off your shoulders accompanied with joy. But it WILL be unmistakable. He waits at the door and will enter in when you simply open it for Him to enter. Let it go. Put down the weights, the heavy baggage. Your life will NEVER be the same.

I have found no evidence that Hitler was an atheist. He even went to great efforts to stomp out atheism. There does seem to be plenty of evidence that his flavor of religion didn't conform very well to any major sect of Christianity. He talked about God all of the time though. Here's the link: http://groups.google.co.bw/group/talk.athe...=raot&hl=en Go about 1/4 down the page and you will see the dialogue begin there. There are numerous references and links there that back up this claim (I felt too many to copy and post here). If you click on it, you'll see what I mean. At the very least, you'll see why someone should doubt Hitler was a Christian (aside from the numerous atrocities).

...well... what you said does not contradict what I said. But whatever. So I guess Hitler had A LOT to do with religion. So why are we blaming the holocaust on atheism again? Sounds like a terrifying theist to me who used religion for the most despicable things. Hitler used religion solely for political gain (kind of like Saddam Hussein). I posted some google group links a few weeks ago that revealed this and his atheist-adherent beliefs. I could dig them up again if you like. Note that google-groups are not a Christian friendly bunch - at least from what I've seen.

Nebula, You know I agree with you to a certain point as evidenced by my earlier post in apologetics regarding "TheProcess". At the same time, I think it's up to the leading of the Holy Spirit. When TP rejected even the plausibility of an explanation I offered, it was clear to me what to do despite the appearence of giving up or giving in. My pride doesn't matter. I pegged RH months ago and stated it in a post back then. She never denied it. Just a short while ago, she mentions in a post that she's only testing the teaching she's learning in her philosophy class here on Worthy - very close to what I suspected months ago. I think employing a little discernment after a few days of posting reveals the true intentions of their hearts. Others may feel differently and choose to keep trying. I don't stand in their way. The Holy Spirit may be working through them at this time and not me. Again, my pride doesn't matter. The reality of the internet is that people are probably more willing to speak their hearts in an anonymous fashion such as this. This is giving us, as Christians, a reality check of the thinking that many unbelievers hold. Where else would we really engage with the godless without them veiling their true beliefs? As I've said in other posts, as long as these boards are reasonably moderated and Godly men and women will represent the truth, the harm that could be done to a weaker believer is minimized. For me, my faith has only strengthened as a result. If their goal has been to pull believers away, for me at least, that plan has backfired.

He never forgets a seed that has been planted either. It could be years from now before it's watered and springs to life.

I don't know...ask the Jews of the holocaust.

To the other readers of this thread.... I am not conceding any mistake. I am simply not engaging in any further debate "TheProcess" because I believe it's casting pearls. I felt it was time to "wipe my feet." I have been very encouraged by Shiloh's and other people's work here. "TheProcess" isn't revealing anything that hasn't been successfully refuted for the past 2000 years. It was a topic in many of the apostle's letters. I have to admit it's a bit weird at times to be engaged with so much anti-christian rhetoric.

Why don't you get saved so you can ask God directly? so are you saying that an "unsaved" person cannot speak to god? That's a whole other issue as to when He actually begins to hear and answer our prayers. I'm referring to after you die....gotta reserve a seat on that ride. The tickets are paid for, you just have to believe it and get yours. Don't believe but would like to too, maybe that's where that prayer business plays a part. Humble yourself and let the words roll of your tongue. Admit that in and of yourself, you cannot corner Him with your "intelligent" arguments and force Him to dance. That you're willing to love Him, but that you battle your need to see evidence before you give yourself to something. Ask that if He's real, to show himself to you in His Word so that you may properly repent of your sin and come to know Him in a way that words alone cannot express. Open your heart and allow yourself to be taught by Him. Admit that the faith of His followers has baffled you because you don't see it the same way they do. But that to believe in something bigger than yourself is appealing. Knowing a better plan for humanity is appealing. Agree that if Jesus is who He said He is, that indeed, He is worthy of your praise because no one else you know or will ever know would be willing to take your punishment for you on your behalf. But Lord, I have to get beyond this nagging desire for evidence as such but know that whatever revelation You can give me inside my heart would better than a million words written or spoken by mear men. My need for evidence is a desire that you instilled in me upon creating me and because this is so, there must be a purpose for this trait that would bring you glory. And I want to fulfill my purpose. Maybe something like that.....

Or they could actually only appear that way. They could actually be evidence of an Intelligence and a commonality in the Creation. Peace, Dave How is that evidence of intelligence? If anything, the fact that humans have organs that serve no use should be evidence on unintelligence. Not that I'm dissing your God or anything, it's just that if God is so Intelligent, why would he give us totally unnecessary organs? So how would natural selection account for 'unnecessary' parts of the human anatomy? Vestiges for a distant past sounds neat, but doesn't really answer the question. If you widdled a human down to what was only necessary for survival and not for convenience, what would you end up with?

Why don't you get saved so you can ask God directly?

I never thought about it that way, Runner, but you're right. Thanks. We're all born orphans too. We don't really know who are parents are until they introduce themselves and we are raised to believe they are who they say they are.

I think a lot of athiests aren't scary....just scared. Scared of accountibility to God. Their answer....stick your head in the sand and say to yourself, there is no god there is no god there is no god. Believer, what did you say?....NO!...there is no god there is no god.....

Since He is... Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord! Question is...will you do so before it's too late? Typical reasons people put this off: They say there's no Creator, Heaven or Hell - At some point in everyone's life, they'll be challenged to hold onto this belief. Whether that comes from contemplating the magnificence and complexity of the universe and it's inhabitants. Or when we see terrible violations against humanity. Or when we face the reality of our own or a loved ones death. They believe there's plenty of time - Very dangerous because tomorrow is NOT promised to any of us. They believe in a creator but doubt the Lordship of Christ - As evidenced by some of the activity in this thread, you'll be challenged to doubt the authenticity of the claims of Christ when considering the biblical account, the testimony of millions of other believers for 2000 years, the historical and archeological evidence that supports the bible, and sense the urging and conviction of the Holy Spirit. They love their sin and refuse to admit it's sinfulness, therefore deny the need for repentence - The bible gives us the 10 commandments (written in stone) as measure by which we will be judged. The bible tells us that we have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Christ came to save men from their sin and grant them everlasting life in Heaven. Admit your a sinner (repent and abandon your efforts to get to God on your own). Believe that Christ was raised from the dead. Confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord. Do this, and you WILL be SAVED. I already DO believe, undone! In fact - more than that - I KNOW. People can believe something and it be wrong. I know that Jesus is who He said He is. I kinda figured you did. I was mostly addressing this to anybody reading the thread. Sorry, I didnt mean to imply you didn't believe.

I have been there myself at times. Usually I'll eventually find the answer but sometimes I trust that all the other evidence overwhelms me and assume when and if He wants me to know the answer, He will show me. It's happened many times. The answer that is. I quoted this in another thread a few days ago. Rick Warren, of Purpose Driven Life, once said in an interview with Larry King, "We as humans tend to believe our doubts and doubt our beliefs. It should be the other way around. We should believe our beliefs and doubt our doubts.

Santa Claus the evil and dangerous deceiver - So should we be forming protest marches at the malls? At the parades? Yank his beard off in front of the crowd and expose this menace to society?

It kinda makes me wonder. I've noticed some threads are no longer present that I've either initated or posted replies in. There's is no explanation. I don't know if it's what I said or something someone posted after me that I never saw. It's really no big deal as I can live with it, but it would be interesting to know. I assume if I was the actual perpetrator a mod would at least PM me to let me know.

1 John 2:21-23 (NIV) 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist

The way I've always understood it is - The ability to tell the distiguish lies or error from truth, bad from good, darkness from light, ...etc. I'm pretty sure that's close.

Since He is... Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord! Question is...will you do so before it's too late? Typical reasons people put this off: They say there's no Creator, Heaven or Hell - At some point in everyone's life, they'll be challenged to hold onto this belief. Whether that comes from contemplating the magnificence and complexity of the universe and it's inhabitants. Or when we see terrible violations against humanity. Or when we face the reality of our own or a loved ones death. They believe there's plenty of time - Very dangerous because tomorrow is NOT promised to any of us. They believe in a creator but doubt the Lordship of Christ - As evidenced by some of the activity in this thread, you'll be challenged to doubt the authenticity of the claims of Christ when considering the biblical account, the testimony of millions of other believers for 2000 years, the historical and archeological evidence that supports the bible, and sense the urging and conviction of the Holy Spirit. They love their sin and refuse to admit it's sinfulness, therefore deny the need for repentence - The bible gives us the 10 commandments (written in stone) as measure by which we will be judged. The bible tells us that we have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Christ came to save men from their sin and grant them everlasting life in Heaven. Admit your a sinner (repent and abandon your efforts to get to God on your own). Believe that Christ was raised from the dead. Confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord. Do this, and you WILL be SAVED.