Vickilynn

Shalom Ddavid! Amen!! And a few friends like me (I'm not telling my weight!)

Shalom Artsy, <sigh> This ALWAYS gets tossed about when we discuss these issues. Let's look again at Romans 14. If someone believes the Scriptures state getting a tattoo is a sin, we must respect that and not tear it (or them) down for those beliefs, for they are following G-d's Word as we are. The Scriptures say that the outward is important as well. it's not "either / or", it's BOTH. Please refer to Scriptures that tell women how to dress modestly etc. The outward appearance comes from the heart. G-d, looks at both, as should we. See above. The outward comes from the heart and G-d sees both. Using that phrase that "G-d looks at the heart", does not mean that we are not to be concerned about our outward appearance. What the Scriptures say is that G-d sees our heart INTENT and MOTIVES and those are what guide our outward.

Shalom Butero, Amen. I appreciate your clear stand on the issues and your willingness to post them. There are people who really want to know what the Bible says about this and what Christians believe. That's why we have message boards. If this topic is not something someone is interested in, they can simply skip it. We should never ignore the issues. To some people, this is very important and I think they are as important as anyone else. Thank you Butero. I may not always agree with you on every issue, but I agree that we are to find what we believe the Scriptures say and stand on those beliefs, even if others do not agree.

Shalom David, No offense taken, but perhaps some misconceptions that should be addressed. I don't see "conservative" and "open-minded" as opposites at all. What I see is that people are individuals, and blanket generalities do not apply, neither does trying to "box" Christians into categories by convictions, denominations, gender, age or anything else. We are individual and multi-faceted. G-d made us intricate and observers who think of us as one-dimensional end up being surprised by some of our responses. That just means the observer needs to look deeper than the surface. And thank G-d He made us all individuals with the ability to think, pray and hear from Him.

Shalom Richard, No, not even me. When I am ministering to someone, I focus on what the Holy Spirit is trying to say to that person. I have ministered in jails, on street corners and other places. Whether someone has tattoos or piercings or cuttings does not affect my willingness to share the truth of the Gospel to them. I am sorry that you cut yourself at a time in your life when you needed the comfort of pain. I am thankful that G-d has brought you from that place. G-d bless you.

Again, let us reseach the origins, context and cultural aspects of 'piercings' witin many cultures. Within the Scriptures, it was a sign of being owned, slavehood [cf Exo 21:6]. Who is our Master? Again, I will not judge anyone upon this issue, and I hope that we can each remember to be gentle with each other upon it. Shalom Richard, However, that slave connotation is no longer accurate regarding ear piercings. I have 2 in each ear. My daughter has five. (3 in one ear and 2 in another) Our Master is Jesus.

Shalom, We (hubby and I) do not want our children getting tattoos or piercings, but we have 2 children over 18, so they can do as they choose. Thus far, neither have gotten tattooed, but my daughter wants one. I am concerned about the safety, as well as being permanent, she may regret it later. However, these are my only concerns, not that it is sinful. It is not if the subject matter is not sinful. Personally, I think some of the more elaborate ones are truly works of art. Just honest opinion. If my husband would let me, I might get one! But, he won't, so no go. Suzanne, I understand what you're saying, but I don't see any motive difference in getting a lovely tattoo and a woman wearing makeup to enhance her features. I wear make up and don't consider it a sin. Neither do I consider an enhancing tattoo to be a sin. However, makeup washes off, tattoos don't!

Hey Vickilynn, Good to see you posting, you have been missed. When I read the passage I read it as they found the tomb empty in the early hours on the first day. Shalom Richard, Thank you. Yes, I agree. I just didn't say it right. The point I was making was that Monday is not the day He arose. John 20 1Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.

Shalom, According to my understanding of when Jesus died, there is no such thing as "Good Friday" Biblically. It is a man-made holiday. And, according to the Word, Jesus rose in the early hours of the first day of the week, (Sunday). THIS is the day that we remember His resurrection. However, I do appreciate that some institutions, such as my daughter's college, give people the next day (Monday) off, in honor of Jesus raising from the dead.

Shalom Patricia, Some churches do. They call them tithes!

Shalom Richard, The same to you Brother. And it's comforting to know that the family members do not turn their backs on those who simply disagree but still love the same Jesus.

Hear hear!! Oh no! I am actually agreeing with you Vickilynn Shalom Richard, It's not a sin to agree with me if I'm right!

Shalom, Mama asked a sincere question on some ideas as a parent. Can we just leave the arguments aside, just this once?

Shalom Mama, Well, to be honest, I'd rather not even go there 'cuz that's where the arguments come in, but my point is that neither bunnies or eggs are in the Bible relating to the Resurrection of Jesus, so we don't include bunnies or eggs in our celebration of His rising. There is nothing wrong with them, but, we don't believe they belong in the celebration of a very holy Biblical event that changed history forever. We believe that bunnies and eggs are better saved for other days. That said, we like to use the visual aids that show the Biblical truth about Jesus rising from the dead and the cookies and rolls are wonderful, fun, easy and tasty ways to explain what happened and the children REALLY see through the visuals. My kids loved doing the cookie thing and they loved the story along with it!

Shalom Mama, We NEVER do anything with eggs to celebrate Jesus' Reasurrection. Why? Because a bunny and eggs have nothing to do with the holiness of our Savior rising from the dead. However, before you throw rotten eggs at me We DO the Resurrection Cookies and tell the story along with them. Even my older kids LOVE it! Easy to do and they illustrate the REAL reason we celebrate (which is not bunnies and eggs) and besides, they taste great. This year, we'll do the rolls along with the cookies and read the story from the Bible.

Shalom Emily Anne, Yup. And being willing to go where He calls and walk through what He has ordained, even if it is to die for our faith, rather than sin.

Shalom Butero, I agree. And what I find really sad is when I see people who place their FREEDOM up on an altar and make an idol of it. And some people worship their "freedom" to do whatever they want above others in the Body who may stumble at seeing a Christian drink, smoke, curse, women wear pants, listen to Christian rock music, having a Christmas tree etc. It is not a real freedom unless we are willing to lay it down rather than make our brother stumble. Otherwise, "freedom" can be an idol.

Shalom, Our "freedom" IN Messiah? Our "freedom" is to serve Him, however HE calls us to. And in that, we may die. OR, we trust Him to protect and lead us where He has called us. Either way, our "freedom" in Messiah means that we are HIS bondslave. We are freed from sin, but we belong to Jesus and exist to do HIS will, not ours. THAT'S freedom.

Shalom Ex, Correct. And the arguments to the contrary are Straw Man arguments. We are not talking about salvation, or standing before G-d. We are stating that men and women have EQUAL BUT DIFFERENT roles, as laid out by G-d, and according to His authority structure. yep. unfortunately people make it about them. they do the "well, i don't wanna do that. i'd rather do this...God told my heart i can be this...." what people fail to understand is that it takes humility to not make it about them but about God. line after line. scripture after scripture we see this over and over. Yet people make it about them. Shalom EX, That's what this whole thing boils down to. Doing it G-D's way, or women's way? I believe it's the "P" word in most cases. Now, some women genuinely don't understand, but when they see the Scriptures and say they ain't gonna do this or that and ain't nobody gonna make them, well, that's a good indication of some rebellion and authority issues, IMHO. And it's NOT about them, it's about G-d and His plan and His authority.

Shalom Ex, Correct. And the arguments to the contrary are Straw Man arguments. We are not talking about salvation, or standing before G-d. We are stating that men and women have EQUAL BUT DIFFERENT roles, as laid out by G-d, and according to His authority structure.

Shalom, Every time this topic comes up, I post this EXCELLENT article from a well-respected Apologetics site, CARM. (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) Please read it! It's all Scripture and very wise and covers all these common arguments y'all are throwing in. http://www.carm.org/questions/womenpastors.htm Should Women Be Pastors and Elders? In a social climate of complete equality in all things, the biblical teaching of only allowing men to be pastors and elders is not popular. Many feminist organizations denounce this position as antiquated and chauvinistic. In addition, many Christian churches have adopted the "politically correct" social standard and have allowed women pastors and elders in the church. But the question remains, is this biblical? My answer to this question is, "No, women are not to be pastors and elders." Many may not like that answer, but it is, I believe, an accurate representation of the biblical standard. You make the decision after reading this paper. First of all, women are under-appreciated and under-utilized in the church. There are many gifted women who might very well do a better job at preaching and teaching than many men. However, it isn't gifting that is the issue, but God's order and calling. What does the Bible say? We cannot come to God's word with a social agenda and make it fit our wants. Instead, we must change and adapt to what it says. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve. He put Adam in the garden and gave him the authority to name all the animals. Afterwards, God made Eve as a helper to Adam.(1) This is an important concept because Paul refers to the order of creation in his epistle to Timothy when he discusses the relationship between men and women in the church context. Let's take a look. "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression" (1 Tim. 2:12-14 -- all quotes from the Bible are from the NASB). This passage has several interesting areas of discussion, but for our purpose we will focus on authority. At the very least, there is an authority structure set up by God. The woman is not to have authority over the man in the church context. But this does not extend to the political/economic world. In the Old Testament Deborah was a judge in Israel over men. Also, in the New Testament, Phoebe played an important role in the church at Cenchrea (Romans 16). There is no doubt that women supported Paul in many areas and were great helpers in the church (Act 2:17; 18:24; 21:8). But what Paul is speaking of in 1 Tim. 2 is the relationship between men and women in the church structure, not in a social or political context. When we look further at Paul's teachings we see that the bishop/overseer is to be the husband of one wife (1 Tim. 3:2) who manages his household well and has a good reputation (1 Tim. 3:4-5, 7). Deacons must be "men of dignity"(1 Tim. 3:8). Paul then speaks of women in verse 11 and their obligation to receive instruction. Then in verse 12, Paul says "Let deacons be husbands of one wife..." Again, in Titus 1:5-7, Paul says, "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward..." Notice that Paul interchanges the word 'elder' and 'overseer'. In each case, the one who is an elder, deacon, bishop, or overseer is instructed to be male. He is the husband of one wife, responsible, able to "exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict" (Titus 1:9). We see no command for the overseers to be women. On the contrary, women are told to be "dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things" (1 Tim. 3:11). Why is it that it is the men who are singled out as the overseers? It is because of the created order of God that Paul references (Gen. 1-2; 1 Tim. 2:12-14). This is not merely a social custom that fell away with ancient Israel. Additionally, in the Old Testament in over 700 mentions of priests, every single one was a male. There is not one instance of a female priest. This is significant because priests were ordained by God to hold a very important office of ministering the sacrifices. This was not the job of women. Therefore, from what I see in Genesis 1-2, 1 Timothy 2, and Titus 1, the normal and proper person to hold the office of elder/pastor is to be a man. What About Galatians 3:28? "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus," (Gal. 3:28). This verse is often used to support the idea that women can hold the offices of elder and pastor because there is neither male nor female in Christ. The argument states that if we are all equal, then women can be pastors. Unfortunately, those who use this verse this way have failed to read the context. Verse 23 talks about being under the Law "before faith came" and how we are brought closer to Jesus and have become sons of God by faith. We are no longer under law, but grace and we are "Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise," (v. 29).(2) The point of this passage is that we are all saved by God's grace according to the promise of God and that it doesn't matter who you are, Jew, Greek, slave, free, male, or female. All are saved the same way, by grace. In that, there is neither male nor female. This verse is not talking about church structure. It is talking about salvation "in Christ." It cannot be used to support women as pastors because that isn't what it is talking about. Instead, to find out about church structure and leadership, you need to go to those passages that talk about it: 1 Timothy 2 and Titus 1. Being a Pastor or Elder is to be in Authority God is a God of order and balance. He has established order within the family (Gen. 3:16; 1 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 5:22-33; Col. 3:18-21 ) and the church (1 Tim. 2:11-14; 1 Cor. 11:8-9). Even within the Trinity there is an order, a hierarchy. The Father sent the Son (John 6:38) and both the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me," (John 6:38). It is clear that God is a God of order and structure. In creation, God made Adam first and then Eve to be his helper. This is the order of creation. It is this order that Paul mentions in 1 Tim. 2:11-14 when speaking of authority. Being a pastor or an elder is to be in the place of authority. Therefore, within the church, for a woman to be a pastor or elder, she would be in authority of men in the church which contradicts what Paul says in 1 Tim. 2:11-14. But Doesn't This Teaching Belittle Women? No, male leadership does not belittle women. Jesus was given his authority by God the Father (Matt. 28:18). He was sent by God (John 6:38). He said the Father was greater than He (John 14:28). Did this belittle Jesus? Of course not. Women are of great value in the church and need to be used more and more according to the gifts given them. Does the wife's submission to the husband mean that she is less than the husband, less important, or belittled? Again, not at all. Not having a place of leadership in the church does not mean a woman is less of a person, less important to God, or inferior. All are equal before God whether it be Jew, Gentile, free, slave, male, or female. But in the church, God has set up an order the same way he set one up in the family. The chain of command is Jesus, the man, the wife, and the children. What About Women Who Say They are Called By God to Be Pastors? There are women pastors in the world who love their congregations and have stated that they are called by God to be pastors. Of course, I cannot agree with this considering the previous analysis of the biblical position. Instead, I believe they have usurped the position of men and gone against the norm of scriptural revelation. Additionally, those who state that they are called by God because of the great job they are doing and the gifting they have received are basing their theology upon experience and not scripture. The issue is simple: are they submitting to the word of God or are they making the word of God submit to their desires? What About a Missionary Woman Who Establishes a Church? Scripture establishes the norm. As Christians we apply what we learn from the word, to the situations at hand. So, what about the situation where a woman missionary has converted a group of people, say in the jungle somewhere, and she has established a church? In that church, she is then functioning as a pastor and teacher having authority over men in the church. Should she not do this? First of all, she should not be out there alone. She should be with her husband or, at the very least, under the oversight of a church body in the presence of other women and men. Missionary work is not a lone endeavor to be handled by single women. Second, if in some highly unusual set of circumstances there is a woman in a lone situation, it is far more important that the word of God be preached and the gospel of salvation go forth to the lost than not. Whether it be male or female, let the gospel be spoken. However, I would say that as soon as there is/are males mature enough to handle eldership, that she should then establish the proper order of the church as revealed in scripture and thereby, show her submission to it. Does this also mean that women shouldn't wear jewelry? "Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments; 10 but rather by means of good works, as befits women making a claim to godliness. 11 Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve," (1 Tim. 2:9-13). Some argue that if we are to forbid women to be elders then the context of 1 Tim. 2:9-13 demands that we require women to no have braided hair, wear gold, or have costly garments. Since no one wants to put that sort of a demand on a woman (since it is cultural), then why should we also demand that they not be elders since it would logically follow that it was also a culturally based admonition? The problem here is that multifaceted. First, the objection ignore what the scriptures plainly teach about the elder being the husband of one wife. Second, it fails to address the real issue of biblical headship residing in the male. Third, it fails to properly exegete the scripture in question. In 1 Tim. 2:9-13 Paul tells us that women should be modestly dressed. He uses the example of then present day adornment as an example of what not to do, definitely culturally based assessment by Paul. Notice that Paul emphasizes good works and godliness as a qualifier (as does Peter, see 1 Pet. 3:2). This is not a doctrinal statement tied to anything other than being a godly woman in appearance as well as attitude. In verse 11, Paul says that a woman should quietly receive instruction. Please note that "The word, he

Shalom Terter, Actually, not as a pastor or in authority over men. He DID call it in the Scriptures (see those already posted). Women are NOT to be in positions of SPIRITUAL authority over men.

Shalom, I sent a copy of the story to my local news station.

Shalom Mike, As we've discussed this before, the issue is not women in leadership. Women are wonderful CEO's and leaders. However, the Bible addresses and forbids women in SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY here, and not women in leadership. So, your example above is a Straw Man argument. As are the ones about salvation and gifts and service. These Straw Man arguments have nothing to do with the topic of a woman pastor. A pastor is a shepherd a SPIRITUALLY responsible for those under his care. A woman is forbidden to be that person. However, a woman can be in leadership (over certain areas) however, not to be SPIRITUALLY over men.

How many times ya gotta be told? Don't be a renting from Acme, look at what kept happening to poor Wylie Coyote. Nothing he ever rented worked right for him. Shalom Richard, :blink: Yeah, gotta find a new finger rental distributor. These ones make too many istakes that get me into trouble! Jes like that ol' Wiley Coyote! Good thing my motives are not like his!