Shaliach

When I find something online that seems to be worth sharing, I like to 'go for it', as it were. Bibles & Study Resources is for the serious student - or for the casual student who might like to become more serious. Enjoy!

Excellent call.

This is yet another area of confusion. You instruct others not to interpret scripture, yet you do. What is your justification for the apparent right for you to interpret scripture and it is not permissible for others to do so?

From this statement, I must make yet another assumption (I really don't like working from assumptions, too many things can go wrong), i.e., you are not familiar with the process (what is technically involved) in making a translation from one language to another, especially from Hebrew to English because of the two very different word views that are represented. Even so, from the tone and focus of your posts, I am not exactly sure what your view is on studying the word of God. Would you be willing to share some of your thoughts on this?

Assuming that you are a pastor who does not employ the use of any English language translations in teaching the congregation the word of God, I must make another assumption; you teach and preach from the original languages, and where necessary, teach these languages to your congregation. Or, the other alternative is that you do not use the written word at all, and simply go with what you have identified as God’s Spirit directing you and the assembly. Are any of these assumptions correct - or even close? One question, however. From what English translation did you take the scriptural quotes that you use in your posts? Or, are they your own translations?

Thanks folks. I really appreciate the contributions. I'll wait a while longer for possible additional input, then collect the posted thoughts.

An interesting thread concerning sin and repentance. Generally I hear of these kinds of discussions, but seldom find the terms defined - rather they are simply 'understood' in some sort of foggy fashion. Just for the fun of it, who would like to give us a biblical based definition of sin and list of what God has identified as 'sin', plus the role or function of repentance? It would seem that such a discussion would be right in line with the subject and tone of the thread to date. I am currently in the middle of a study on the subject and would be very interested in what the members of this forum think about it.

Very nicely done!

The short answer is: Unbelief.

The message in your dream is very 'right on'. The overwhelming references to glorify the name, honor the name, praise, worship the name, etc, is fact mood of the Hebrew world view in which the names and titles of an identifiable individual is the same as calling or referencing that person by their 'given name'. Then, aside from the term El (God, singular) each descriptive term added to El contains a spectrum of meanings - Hebrew being a verb based language - that might apply, depending on the context within it is found. See Isaiah 9:6 for the different interpretations of of the name by which the man Jesus would be identified. Or, look up in the Hebrew (using a good lexicon, not a dictionary) the 25 or so different names (titles, names, terms) used to identify the God of Israel. A good (quick) reference is Praying the Names of God, A Daily Guide by Ann Spangler, 2004 Zondervanm Grand Rapids, Michigan. Using this book provides a quick jump into the scriptures. However, I also recomend the BDB Gesenius Hebrew-English lexicon for understanding the different shades of meaning of each descriptive Hebrew terms. Take what you have already received and now search the scriptures for insight into who, what, and the nature of our God - and may your studies be fruitful.

First, inActs there are at least two references to non Jews meeting in synagogues to hear Paul 'reason' with the Jews and preach, then move on to the houses of believers after Shabbat. However, that does not address the question. We know from the New Covenant Writings that the believers met in homes - most likely for the first 400 years. How did they conduct themselves in such meetings? Well, again from the book Acts, we know they met to 'break bread'. How to conduct an assembly: 1 Corinthians 14:21-40

It is an excellent question. The Torah is God's instructions in righteousness. We have translated it into English as "Laws" and it refers to the first five books of the Bible, also called the books of Moses, or the Pentateuch. The rest of the Old Testament consists of Nevi'im (Prophets), including the Early Prophets, Nevi'im Rishonim, M'lakhim (Kings), Nevi'im Acharonim (Later Prophets), the K'tuvim (Writings) and the Megillot (The Five Scrolls). Collectively, all of the above is referred to as the Tanakh (Old Covenant/Old Testament). Under some conditions, the entire collection of Old Covenant books are also called the Torah.

If this is the truth, why are women allowed as pastors? You did pick out one of the verses that draws a lot of fire - from both sides of the veil, as it were. Even so, when taking a verse to task, one should first investigate its foundation, if it has one. In this case, Paul issues three instructions, including a fourth one, i.e., women are to silent in an assembly environment, are not permitted to speak (either at all or according to some prescribed manner/restriction), and they are to be submissive [by context, assumed to be their husbands or other appropriate male member of the family]. This is where it is becomes interesting: Paul states that one or more of these instructions are based on the Law [of Moses]. Please find and reference the Old Covenant commandment(s), ordinance(s), and/or statute(s) that Paul was using as his authority for issuing this congregational ruling.

The answer to you question: Peter, by questioning them concerning their statements, offered them the opportunity to repent - neither did. As to the judgment concerning your past lies: See the above posts.

Here is a truism that is very simple to grasp but difficult to consistently employ: There are no stand-alone verses in the Bible, they are all part of, and make up the integrated whole as they reveal the mind of God. Consequently, there are no stand-alone biblical doctrines, as they must all support (are dependent upon) one another (no conflicts, contradictions, etc.). Where a scripture appears to be in conflict with another scripture (paradox), then there is something concerning those scriptures that we do not understand. If doctrines are in conflict, we have a false doctrine (a teaching that contains one or more errors). Remember, there is "no shadow" in God. Also keep in mind that we are given to understand even the "deep things of God" - but we are not yet given to understand "everything" concerning God! We must learn, and be content with, knowing the difference.

Then, my friend, you would most likely enjoy the weekly "Men of the Bima" meetings. Unlike on-line communities and postings, these need to take place in face to face meetings - around a table. Each week a different person is chosen to select a difficult Bible passage (or a controversial passage) for discussion. Each person is required to give their opinion concerning the selected passage and give a reason(s) for holding that opinion. As the discussion continues around the table (and across the table!) at any point a speaker can be challenged by the asking of the question, "Show me the scripture." This requires the speaker to find and read the scripture being used to support his position (if one exists) - and to give his interpretation of that scripture and why it supports his position. The speaker can also be challenged on that scripture and its interpretation, requiring yet another scriptural passage investigation. Even the "challenger" can be challenged in turn for a rebuttal. I think you can get the idea. It is a give and take - around the table - discussion with open Bibles in hand. Not every meeting ends with in agreement, but, everyone leaves challenged - what do you believe and why, what do you actually know, why do you hold to one belief over another, etc.? Then comes the hard question: Can you still love your brother, support him, serve him, and live and work in harmony with him even if you have serious disagreements with him? Keep in mind: If you cannot mount a creditable challenge to your own belief system, you are not prepared to adequately defend it. Example, concerning the baptism reference of Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." What baptism is referenced to here and how is it to be understood and applied to one's life? Answers: I got baptized because without the water my sins are not forgiven. I got baptized because it is a public declaration of an inter transformation. I got baptized only because it is a biblical instruction. I got baptized in response to having my sins forgiven. I did not get baptized in water because the "one" and only baptism that I needed was the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I got baptized because it is the Hebrew religious/spiritual requirement for becoming a disciple (student, Talmid) of Rabbi Yeshua (Jesus). etc. Yes, discussions can become "heated", feelings can get stepped on, etc. Therefore, these meetings are usually reserved for only those elders who have demonstrated a high degree of spiritual maturity and knowledge of the word, who have shown themselves to be both an accomplished teacher as well as a serious student. Egos can be quickly bruised, therefore humility is the safer approach when confronting (of being confronted by) one's peers. While this is an old Hebrew study method, you might find it interesting to try in your church. Just remember the maturity, knowledge, and the humility requirements! A little wisdom also goes along way in such a setting. --------------------------- *A Bima is the platform (or table) from which the Torah (Scroll of Instruction) is read. Men of the Bima are those asembly elders who study and teach the Tanakh (Bible).

I usually ask myself a series of questions before entering into a discussion (or a debate). During a discussion I will revisit these same questions to see what, if anything, has changed. What am I getting involved in this subject (discussion/debate)? What is my purpose? What is my goal(s)? What is it I hope to achieve? Why? What is my "pay off"? What do I personally get out of participating in the thread? Then working to keep in mind the following: In order to be the best possible teacher I can be, I must first be (and maintain being) the best possible student that I can be. Accept nothing at "face value", not even my own words! Check, test and recheck everything against the word of God, and when and if necessary, get the advice of mature counselors. Above all: Never be afraid to say, "I don't know." For example: This thread - My purpose here is to share a different opinion on the subject. To expand the scope of the discussion. My goal is to present a different point of view that may assist others in evaluating their own participation in some subjects, i.e., deciding in advance which subjects might be worth the time and effort to respond and carry on an exchange, and those subjects that are designed to simply draw folk in discussions of no personal or spiritual value. To engage in right/wrong games and spiritual one-upmanship exchanges. I do this in order to contribute something to raising (hopefully) the standard of the discussions and to facilitate the exchange and evaluation of ideas, opinions, and insights in a "safe" environment. If I observe such an improvement as I hope for, then my effort has been validated. If not, then I know that I must try again. ------------- While all of this may seem to be a lot to go through, with just a little practice one can go through all of the above in a matter of a minute or two. Of course there is a "down side" to it. It requires a growing degree of personal honesty (integrity) each time one utilizes the process. Sometimes I really get scared and just drop it. LOLOL Then after spending a little time with our Lord, I will revisit the subject and then decide if I should get involved or not. If it is for attention, personal gratification, self justification (being right), or to diminish another in anyway, I'll pass. On the other hand, if I think I might be of some actual service to another, then I will generally proceed. When I have said all that I intended to say, think appropriate to say, I quit posting, because sometimes I will post too much and get myself into trouble!

This is a quick thought on the subject. Most likely it will require extensive reworking, but, here it goes anyway. (I have to wonder if this is wise?) ---------------------------------- Here are two views of intelligence: 1. The ability to learn facts and skills and apply them, especially when this ability is highly developed 2. The ability to comprehend; to understand and profit from experience I find nothing here that would disqualify anyone from acquiring faith in Christ or hinder their walk (relationship) with God. Even so, as with any talent, skill or ability taken to an “extreme”, it becomes a stumbling block to the individual and perhaps to others also. Mental ramblings: The lack of knowledge (what) is a dangerous thing. However, knowledge without understanding (why) is a disaster. Intelligence (how) is the ability to integrate one’s knowledge and understanding into achieving a chosen goal. Wisdom is the ability to make good choices concerning (when, where, and why) to apply all of the above. I have met and worked with people who had a tremendous amount of information in their heads (knowledge) but had no clue on how to use it “productively”. It took an individual with some knowledge but with a good understanding of the principles/concepts (what) to manage those with knowledge so that the task(s) could be efficiently accomplished. Above this level of organization, we needed people with a highly developed mental capacity (intelligence) in order to integrate all of the many different tasks into a finished product/action. At the top of the organization we required a person with the wisdom (and vision) in order to direct the finished product/action into a profitable enterprise. As with most things spiritual, God turns things either upside down or on its side. In the world we proceed from knowledge through the maturing steps to reach wisdom. In the kingdom, we start out with a degree of wisdom and grow to an acquisition of the knowledge. Example: 1. Wisdom (or the beginning thereof) is the fear of God. An emotional state generated by a perceived danger, not requiring any particular level of knowledge, understanding or intelligence, only as what a small child might possess. Note: The wisdom of a small child is still wisdom. 2. Intelligence is then used to identify the source of one’s fear and to choose a course of action. One may choose to search out the truth of the fear or to hide from it. 3. Understanding is coming to grips with one’s relationship with God (or lack thereof). 4. Knowledge keeps one in the relationship, growing and maturing into the fullness of Christ. Without learning of God and what it takes to please Him, one will drift away and the relationship will grow cold, perhaps even die (perish). Shalom Aleichem Peace Be Unto You --------------- NOTE: This rambling is offered without scriptural references. However, if anyone requires them, I will be pleased to provide same.

My last note on the subject: shiloh357 Quoted from, Through The Looking-glass, by Lewis Carroll When culturally agreed upon definitions of words are rejected (Reference post #49 & 51, this thread), there remains no rational foundation for engaging in any discussion. When scripture is used to demonstrate an historical fact, (Oral Law, Numbers 15:32-36) and it is rejected because it does not fit some doctrine, then scripture has no value in a religious discussion. Finally, when established biblical scholars are referenced concerning the same subject(s), and summarily rejected without consideration (rejected on opinion only), then calling upon established authorities is of no value. It is then left to who can out-last the other(s) in a right/wrong game, and those games hold no value for me. I therefore quit the field and publicly declare shiloh357 the winner.

No, not really. Judaism began under Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zaakkai at his academy in Yavneh c. 72 AD The Oral Law was not around at the time of Moses and was a later invention. Where exactly? Do you believe that the Sabbath is "required" for believers today? Mercy! So many absolute statements. Where in the world did this stuff come from? Not historical documents. Please see Rabbinic Judaism, which was a development (offshoot) of Judaism of the second to sixth centuries CE. Yochanan ben Zakai did NOT originate Judaism. The Oral Law did, in fact originate with Moses, or so Jewish history and religious writings uniformly attest to. Also see, Jewish Literacy by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin, 1991, William Morrow and Company, Inc., New York. Finally, to your question: "Do you believe that the Sabbath is "required" for believers today?" My answer is a question: What does the scriptures say?" Just as important: What do the people who changed the Sabbath from the seventh day to the first day say? See Confessions

Added comment: Of course the first recorded time where the Hebrew people were referred to as Jews was in 2 Kings 16:6. If that means anything. Perhaps their "religion" did not have a "name", like God, it just is.

There seems to be some confusion over what Judaism is and when it originated. Hope this helps: Language Dictionary Ju•da•ism n. 1. The monotheistic religion of the Jews, tracing its origins to Abraham and having its spiritual and ethical principles embodied chiefly in the Hebrew Scriptures and the Talmud. 2. Conformity to the traditional ceremonies and rites of the Jewish religion. 3. The cultural, religious, and social practices and beliefs of the Jews. 4. The Jews considered as a people or community. The American Heritage

You are right on every point. May your studies be fruitful.

Not a problem. I think you will find a number of excellent references and resources at HaShaliach, please feel free to visit. But first, here are three books that are outstanding, where the roots and heritage of the Christian faith are very well documented and explained from three different perspectives. Our Father Abraham, Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith by Marvin R. Wilson, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1989, Grand Rapids, Michigan and Center for Jedaic-Christian Studies, Dayton, Ohio Jewish Roots, A Foundation of Biblical Theology by Dan Juster, 1995, Destiny Image Publishers, Inc. P.O. Box 310, Shippensburg, PA 17257 The Church and the Jews, The Biblical Relationship by Dan Gruber, 1997, Serenity Books, P.O. Box 3595, Hagerstown, MD 21742. These volumes also contain an excellent array of references. I also highly recommend The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus. I think it might be available to research on-line. Sorry, haven’t checked that out. I hope this assists you in answering some of your questions. Meanwhile, I have a couple of tasks needing attending to. I will get back with you with a partial list of the divergences from the worship services and methods practiced during the first four centuries, plus some additional information that might be of interest. Added note: All three authors are Messianic Jews.

No, all believers are the seed of Abraham, but not all believers in Jesus are Jews. I am sorry, but that is not a biblical statement. Interesting comment. Please explain where the division between the "seed of Abraham" and "Jews" took place, as all believers are "in Christ", the Lion of Judea and of the seed of David of the tribe of Judea, and we, being adoped into Christ place all believers in Jesus in the house of Judea, from whence comes the term "Jew".