Massorite

Now that I agree with.

No you didn't do your home work. The subject of satan and all the bible says about him keeps him seperate from all other angels and the prime reason is that satan is a fallen angel who his gained control over other angels and caused them to fall also. Satan did not NEED all of that blessing that God gave to him according to the visions of Ezekial and God never gave him a bow or a crown according to the verses you have quoted. Satan will never be seated on the throne and God will never give satan a crown so satan can push God off of the throne. Your grabbing for straws here. If you had done your homework as I suggested you would find that the word "Crown" (in this verse) represents a reward given to those who had won a race such as in the Greek olympics but can mean a presidential race as well and the verse does not tell us WHO will give the rider a crown. The crown can also represent royalty but in this case satan is not royalty at all and the He in question here is not an angel it is a human man. The word "he" in all of my research tools is listed in general as a human man unless it is stated otherwise and in this case it does not tell us that it is an angel. We should never make assumptions about scripture. So I say it again. Angels (including satan) are all created beings and have no need of anything at all much less a worthless bow and a worthless crown. That is worthless in the eyes of God. Man holds that which is worthless to God with a high regard. Look closely at this verse you quoted. Isa 14:12-14 - How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn. You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations. You said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will raise my throne above the stars of God. I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the top of the clouds. I will make myself like the Most High. The words in bold script do not say I will get the throne or put myself on the throne of God. They say "I will make myself LIKE the most High.

acc I don't agree with this at all. "For God so loved the world..." doesn't exclude anybody so I think that you are projecting your own prejudices into this. I think that it is blasphemous to include Judaism and the Catholic church in your list. Jesus was a Jew and practiced Judaism when he was a human so to include that faith in this list is to denigrate God's chosen people from whom came the Messiah. Although I don't agree with much of the teachings of Catholicism; they still worship God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. I would suggest that you be very careful whom you slander. What if the seven mountains represent the seven hills of Rome and the ten horns represent the claims of the ten Roman emperors to divinity? This is far more likely than the scenario you have created. Did you even bother to read the article I sourced in my statement? The Pope, Benedict the XVI called on a unified world currency and held a meeting that included the leaders of the world's religions. Those aren't my "prejudices" coming out, this is actually happening. No matter what the Pope says the one world religion will not be based on the Catholic church it will be based on the antichrist as the deity and whatever religion he comes up with. Here is some food for thought. Of the three major religions of contention in the world this is something we need to consider. The Christians, the Muslims and the Jews are all three waiting on a Jewish Jesus to return and do miracles but the Muslims expect Jesus to "kill the swine and to break the cross" the swine being the Jews and the cross is of course Christianity. Niether religion will accept any other race/nationality other then a Jewish Jesus Islam is the single fastest growing religion in the world and if a Jewish Jesus were to show up tomorrow nearly 2 billion Muslims would consider him to be the prophet that is to come and to make war against the Jewish nation and Christianity. The antichrist will bring peace to the world and the Jewish nation at first by making a 7 year agreement with the Jews but after 3 1/2 years he will break that peace treaty. So my comclusion is that the antichrist will be a Jewish Jesus and it will be that Islamic religion that the antichrist will be the head of and he will convince the world that he is who he claims to be by doing signs and wonders for all to see.

It is true what you say about the chapters but where is your scripture connecting what is said with the seals? Even without the chapters listed there are things spoken of aftyer the sixth seal is opened and then the seventh seal is opened and more is spoken of and then the seal is opened and so on so how is it that they blend into each other?

Angels have no need of a useless bow or a crown. Do the research and you will see it differently.

Proper studing always answers most questions. If you were to look up the word "mountains" you would find that it also means "kingdoms or nations" in the Greek. I agree with all of the other posters in that though Jesus was a Jew he did not practice Judism like the jews did even in his day. What Jesus did practice was the Mosaic law or worship as it was set forth by Moses which was not a burden to the people like it was in the days of Jesus or today. There are some who believe that because Rome sets upon seven hills that the seven mountains are speaking of Rome but a hill is not a mountain and Rome is not seven nations or kingdoms. The fact of the matter is that the word of God is not very clear as to what the mountains and the horns are speaking about so any conclusion as to what they might be is nothing more then speculation or assumption. The "horn" in scripture almost always represents Power. As for the blaphamy jaybo is speaking of I must say that he has taken what is to be considered to be blasphamy and stretched it a long way to get blasphamy out of your list. The word "scarlet" Represents the color of blood and the kind of beast spoken of is not mentioned however many believe that the beast is a bull. And right know as we are speaking there is outside of the E.U. headquarters in Brussels Belgim a bronze statue of a woman sitting/riding on a bull and this woman has the bull by the horns.

Sin, which is something you do, can destroy your faith. Right? Where does it say that sin, in and of itself destroys your faith? There are many who are outwardly righteous that will not make it, and there are many who are not so outwardly righteous that will. The word says that nothing can separate us from the Love of Christ. Nothing. Now if you are speaking of turning your back on Christ and fully rejecting him, then yes, that is a sin that can cause you to lose your faith. However, if a person is a drug addict and gets saved but dies before he beats his addiction, would they be saved, as they are living in sin, but fighting against it? I don't think the bible actually says that. But sin is like a cancer which if not treated will continue to consume more and more of that which is good. Thereby destroying our faith in Christ. our need for Christ and our desire for Christ. However when scripture says that "a little leaven, will leaven the whole lump" it is talking about the contamination of the whole lump by just a little bit of sin which means that a little bit of unrepented sin that goes untreated or unrepented from will destroy our individual salvation. Yes and the leaven is speaking of a sinful person affecting the rest of the Church body. We all have some sin, however a single sin does not separate us. As I stated, rejecting the cross is the only thing I know of that will separate you. You can not say fall into lust, and be separated. However if you make lust a lifestyle, and do so while fully rejecting the cross then it will become your god and not Jesus. I see the difference as this. Falling down, vs, jumping down into the mud and throwing a temper tantrum and refusing to get up, but even then, salvation is not about works, nor do I believe it is predestined like many osas people claim. However I don't belive that if you chose give into temptation, and die right then that is a loss of salvation. You see the dangerous part is this, this puts us in a position as it puts us into the spot of judging peoples salvation. You said-"However if you make lust a lifestyle, and do so while fully rejecting the cross then it will become your god and not Jesus." And I agree. This is my point exactly. One sin or many sins will never change our salvation as long as we get back up. But falling down and never getting back up will will take away our salvation. Here is a good example. Lets say that I have fallen back into drunkeness and because of that drunkeness I stop going to church, I stop reading the bible, I start hanging out with my old drinking buddies and go back to that life style I was in before I was saved and die before I have repented from that life style. Do I still get to go to heaven because I was saved or am I doomed to eternal hell because I backslid and rejected Christ after knowing Christ? The answer is in scripture. 1 Cor. 6:9&10 "9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." Saved or not if you are a drunkerd when death comes you do not get into heaven. When one turns from Christ and back to unrepented sin/bondage that sin/bondage becomes the god of that sinner and Christ is no longer in the forefront of the sinners mind and if that sinner does not repent from that bondage before he/she dies, then salvation is lost and the sinner is condemned to eternal death. Temptation in itself is harmless. It is what we do with that temptation that dictates whether or not we keep our salvation or not.

There are several problems with what you have posted. For one thing, you claim that eternal life is a reward that we must earn/win. But that is not what the Bible says. The Bible says that eternal life is a free gift. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 6:23) The second problem is that you misreprsent the point that Paul is making in Rom. 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? (Rom 6:1-2) Paul's point makes the exact point I was making; that a sincere believer isn't living in sin or returning to a sinful life. A sincere believer has a heart to serve God. Thirdly, you insist that eternal security and OSAS are the same but they are not. OSAS is a perversion of Eternal Security A peson who has authentic profession of faith in Christ is eternally secure in the knowledge that God is not going to rescind the plan of salvation and take away the salvatoin He promised. It has nothing to do with thinking you can live any way you want. That is the perversion that OSAS speaks to. Aw c'mon Massorite, can't you come up with a better personal attack than that? The problem is that you cannot build a biblical case for that position. In fact, you have to rely solely human reasoning and logic to arrive at the notion that what God says is a gift, is really a reward that has to be earned. Sorry to disappoint but it wasn't a personal attack. It was an observation and from the looks of things it seems that you are at war with several worthyites and that is the way it has been for you for several years. Don't you ever get tired of that? You seem to like giving all of those insults and it looks like you thrive on recieving them. You ask leading questions that set up folks so you can break out with how wrong they are. Don't you ever get tired of doing that as well? Well this is off subject so I will say no more.

. Sin, which is something you do, can destroy your faith. Right? Where does it say that sin, in and of itself destroys your faith? There are many who are outwardly righteous that will not make it, and there are many who are not so outwardly righteous that will. The word says that nothing can separate us from the Love of Christ. Nothing. Now if you are speaking of turning your back on Christ and fully rejecting him, then yes, that is a sin that can cause you to lose your faith. However, if a person is a drug addict and gets saved but dies before he beats his addiction, would they be saved, as they are living in sin, but fighting against it? I don't think the bible actually says that. But sin is like a cancer which if not treated will continue to consume more and more of that which is good. Thereby destroying our faith in Christ. our need for Christ and our desire for Christ. However when scripture says that "a little leaven, will leaven the whole lump" it is talking about the contamination of the whole lump by just a little bit of sin which means that a little bit of unrepented sin that goes untreated or unrepented from will destroy our individual salvation.

Actually we do have a say so As far as mercy.....THANK GOD FOR IT! For we ALL have sinned! As I have asked before....Just when does God say enough is enough? Is it after the 1st, 101st, or 1001st sin? Who knows. The ONLY thing we know for sure is that SIN is the ONLY action that can cause a name to be blotted out of God's books! And WHO controls whether we sin or not? We DO! So Who controls whether our names are blotted out or kept in God's books? WE DO! So WHO controls our final dwelling place? WE DO! . You did not answer the question. Do you believe ONE sin is enough to lose salvation/be blotted out of the books? If I commit one sin, is my name immediately blotted out of God's book in your view? So you believe that your salvation is up to you? You are the one who determines whether or not you are saved? Your questions reek of witchcraft. Actually we do have control over our salvation. God may have called us but it was our choice to choose Christ over the things of this world and it our God given choice to throw away or salvation by falling back into un-repented sin. Except for the promise of Agape Love, every single promise God gave or has given us is based on conditions set forth by God that we have to obey before we can recieve the reward God has promised us. If you keep my statutes. If you obey my commandments. If you repent and stay that way I will give you eternal life. So what happens if we don't keep the commandments of God? Should we expect to recieve the reward for our disobedience? I don't think so. It is through the Grace of God that we are given the chance to recieve salvation but it by our choice that we keep our salvation by seeking to be Christ like unto death.

There is no such doctrine called "OSAS." It doesn't exist. A "doctrine" is an established teaching of the Church. Doctrines would include, The incarnation of Jesus, the inerrancy of Scripture, Salvation by grace through faith, The Deity of Jesus, Justification, Original Sin, etc. There are doctrines regarding man, angels, sin, the church and last things, There is no doctrine called OSAS. There may be individual believers who believe something along those lines, but to call it a "doctrine" is misleading, as it indicates that it is something held to be entire denominations and it isn't. Even those who profess to believe in eternal security do not hold to OSAS as you describe it. OSAS is not supported by Scripture; but Eternal Security is. OSAS IS IN FACT A DOCTRINAL BELIEF OR IS BELIEVED AS IF IT WERE A VIABLE DOCTRINE. But it is a false doctrine and it is not simply individuals who believe in the OSAS doctrine it is hundreds of millions of believers who have been decieved by the teaching of this false doctrine. The idea of eternal security (which is the same doctrine as the OSAS doctrinal belief) is also a false teaching because ones name can be blotted out of the lambs book of life after being saved. Scripture is quit clear in that one must COMPLETE the race. Endure to the end or run the good race or you will not recieve the promised reward for crossing the finish line because you quit the race before you completed the course. What does Paul say? "Should we continue to sin so that Grace shall abound all the more?" God forbid. If we are a drunk and come to Christ with the right heart and give our life over to Christ and then some time in the future turn back to Drunkeness. Do we still get the reward of eternal life with Jesus? No way Hosa. Because there will be no drunkerds in heaven. The only way we can be assured a place in heaven is if we cross the finish line with our integrety complete and shining. Not even the angels have eternal security. They have no redemption for thier disobedience. Oh I almost forgot. In post # 42 you used the word "books" as in the plural to speak about the Lambs book of life. But there is only one Lambs book of life not more then one.

This passage is referring to the churches, Christians who were able to make it through the tribulation period. Them that are counted as sheep are true Christians who shall receive blessings of God. Them that are counted as goats are Christians who were Christians in name only. They profess Christ and even have signs and wonders to "back up" their claims, but in reality they are not, and shall be cast into hellfire. Thus, this is what Jesus meant when he said, "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven." I agree 100%.

If you haven't got any scripture to back your self up then why even bother to inject that which can not be proved? What a waste of your time and it only serves to confuse baby Christians.

Please praiser do the research. The bow according to all of my reseach tools is just what it says it is , a bow and nothing more. By injecting all kinds of non biblical stuff into a word that can not be biblically re-enforced with scripture adds only confusion to what a verse is actually saying and you have not given any such scripture for your beliefs nor can you find any because they do not exist. Why? Because the Bow in that verse is simply a bow.

The reason you have not recieved any scripture is because there are non that re-enforce the "gathering before great tribulation". There is no such scripture that even says that there will be seven years of tribulation But I can show scriture that says that there will be great tribulation before Jesus is seen in the clouds/glory of God. From the mouth of Jesus. Matthew 24:29 " 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect (we are the elect) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." This is some very clear scripture yet so many refuse to believe it. They would rather belive in a false teaching. 2 Thess. 2:3 " Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Again this is a very clear scripture yet again many refuse to believe. Can you imagine who surprised the un-believers will be when they find themselve in great tribulation and deciding what to do about the mark of the beast. The next time Jesus returns after these verses will be at the end of the battle of Armageddon.

The rider has a bow but no arrows which shows that he has no power. Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. This is the beginning of many events which will take place because all of God’s prophecies will come to pass. These events are what I call the refining processes of God for the purpose of the purification of the bride of Jesus which is, of course, the Great Tribulation. In Proverbs 17:34 and 27:21 the fining pot (crucible) used to purify silver and the furnace for gold are used as examples of how God uses His purifying fire to test the hearts and praises of men. When silver or gold are heated to the point of boiling, all of the impurities will rise to the top of the fining pot at which time they are scraped off. In the case of silver this is done seven times, the end result being the continued purification of the hearts of men, moving them Christward. Proverbs 17:3 says “The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: But the Lord tries the hearts,” and Proverbs 27:21: “As the fining pot for silver, and the furnace for gold. So is a man to his praise.” Only those who truly love and have a relationship with God will praise Him through all adversity, at all times. The greatest example of unselfish praise is found in Job 1:20-22. After great calamity and disaster arose into Job’s life, his first reaction to the destruction that had happened to his family and his possessions was to ripe his clothes, shave his head because of his pain, and then to praise his Creator. Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down on the ground, and worshiped. And said, “Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return there: the Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given to him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. It is of most importance to take notice of the fact that this verse speaks of a “bow” but says nothing about any arrows. There are those who would teach us that because the bow is spoken of we should assume that arrows go along with the bow. To assume this is a very bad mistake. We should never assume anything concerning the Holy Scriptures. The other thing that goes along with a bow and arrows is a quiver—round tube like pouch that one carries his arrows in. It is usually carried on the back. But Jesus doesn’t speak of any such quiver or any arrow to go in it, and if one were going to go to war, he would never do it with only one arrow. So because God chose not to speak of any arrows, we are to assume that He is always right and there are not any arrows being carried by the rider of this white horse. This bow is absolutely useless without any arrows to shoot from it, just as a book is useless without someone to read it or a gas-driven motor with no one to operate it. The bow is a bluff with no power to kill which shows that the one who rides this horse and carries this bow also has no power to kill. It is the Antichrist spoken of here who does not have the power to take away our eternal life, but those who have eternal life have the power to give it away. It will be our choice. However, he does have the power to use willing instruments against the people of God and to bring deception to the world. This causes people to turn away from God, thereby giving away our eternal life. The instruments he uses will be those who have refused the call of God. This verse does not speak of our Lord Jesus Christ. The crown spoken of here speaks of a kingdom and Jesus received his crown nearly 2000 years ago when He ascended into heaven, before this prophecy was written. The kingdom spoken of here will be simply given to the one who rides this white horse in the future. “For God has put in their hearts to fulfill His will, and to agree, and give their kingdoms to the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled” (Revelation 17:17). He will use deception and lies to cause this crown or kingdom to be turned over to him. The man who rides this horse also goes out to conquer. But the big question is who or what is he going out to conquer? A direct translation from the Greek manuscripts show that the words “conquer and conquering” were actually rendered from the words “overcome and overcoming.” He will not be going out to make war with anybody because war is not mentioned until the red horse is spoken of when the next seal is broken. The answer is that he is the Antichrist and he is going out to conquer or overcome the hearts, minds and souls of the people of God who are the saints. A bow without arrows is a weapon without the means to do anything except to run a bluff, and this is the kind of deception the Antichrist will use to turn as many Christians as he can away from Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 says Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to Him. That you be not soon shaken in your minds or be troubled, neither by your spirit, nor by word nor by letter, as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. Basically what these three verses have just said is really quite simple. There will be no coming of Christ or any resurrection until the son of Satan—which will be the Antichrist—is in the world doing what he is supposed to do and controlling what he is supposed to control. Only the true lovers of Christ will see him for who and what he is. Satan once told Christ that the kingdoms of this world were his to give to whomever he would choose. Luke, chapter 4, says “And the devil, taking Him up into a high mountain, showed to Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, ‘All this power will I give You and the glory of them: For that is delivered to me; and to whomsoever I will I give it’” (verses 5,6). It is these kingdoms or crowns he speaks of because all of these kingdoms become one that are given to the son of perdition. Revelation 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. These living creatures are some sort of a link between the things of God and mans ability to see the things of God. Revelation 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given to him a great sword. Red is one of the colors of Satan and is the color of abomination. Today there is war here and there on the earth. But when the red horse and rider go out there will be no peace in the whole world, only total lawlessness in the world. Only the people of God will be keeping the laws of God. The sword spoken of here is one used by the Romans. It was short and very effective in the art of war at the time this book was written. A great or large sword signifies much death. Revelation 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. In this verse black signifies famine and the balances are for measuring the weight of food. Revelation6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see you hurt not the oil and the wine. Bread by weight represents the scarcity of food and a denarius, which is also known as a penny, was the normal wages for a day’s work. A choenix, which is the measure spoken of here, was a measure used for dry weight and was equal to a quart size jar of corn—the daily ration of food for a slave and an amount usually purchasable for one eighth of a denarius. But here, since food is scarce and the world is in a famine, a slave’s daily ration of food costs eight times the normal price. The famine spoken of here is the direct result of the war spoken of in previous verses. Romans 9:8 Paul states that if anyone follows after the things of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” We are the Body of Christ, the children of the promise of everlasting life. Amen. Romans chapter 11, Paul states “For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy and if the root be holy so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off and you being a wild olive tree were grafted in among them and with them partakers of the root and fatness of the olive tree.” We are the saints of Jesus. We are the wild olive tree grafted into the nation of Israel when Christ died for our sins. John 15:4 -6 says, “Live in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it live in the vine; no more can you except you live in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in Me and I in him. If a man live not in Me he is cast forth as a branch and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned.” As Jesus states. He is the Vine and we are the branches that come off of the Vine. The fruit that we bear is the fruit of Jesus coming out of us. We are the wine from the fruit of the Vine, and we are the oil from the fruit of the wild olive tree that was grafted in. It is the saints of God and of Jesus who are the oil and the wine, who will be protected from the famine and anointed with the anointing oil of Jesus. It is what fuels our light within shining to the world and—according to the divine order—which will come out of the mouth of Christ Himself. To be protected from a famine is to be fed, even in the midst of worldwide famine There is a doctrine or teaching of men which states that the saints of Jesus will be raptured out of the world before any Great Tribulation, and that all of the people who are left behind will have a second chance to receive eternal life. But this teaching is absolute deception which leads one to believe in the easy way out. Nowhere in the Bible does it say anything about a second chance. It is the Christians who are alive and in the world today who will be going through the Great Tribulation and we will be protected from everything except persecution in the name of Jesus. How will we be protected? If God has truly spoken to me about this matter, then we will be protected from famine by being fed with hidden manna, which will appear only to the saints of Jesus (Revelation 2:17). Matthew, chapter 25, verses 1-12 gives us a parable about the ten virgins. Verse 1 says that all ten of these virgins took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened to ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the Bridegroom.” This means that all ten of these virgins belong to the kingdom of heaven and know who Jesus Christ is because they all go out to wait for the Bridegroom. Only Christians who know Christ are waiting for His return. “And five of them were wise, and five were foolish” (verse 2). In verse 3 the Bible says that five of these virgins were foolish and did not take enough oil with their lamps when they went out to meet the Bridegroom, but the five wise virgins had enough oil with them. “They that were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them. But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps” (verse 4). We cannot give light to the world without the anointing of Jesus inside of us. i.e. the Holy Spirit. “While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept” (verse 5). In this verse the word “slumbered” means “to become drowsy” and the word “slept” means “went to sleep.”Verse 6 says there was a cry or shout made saying “The Bridegroom Comes; go you out to meet Him. And at midnight there was a cry made, ‘Behold the Bridegroom comes; go you out to meet Him.’” In verse 7 it says that all ten of those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps or made themselves ready. Once again we see that these ten virgins knew who they were preparing to meet. Otherwise they would not have known to obey the instructions and would not have gone out to meet Him. “Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.” A direct translation from the Greek to the English says the virgins were “raised and prepared their torches.” In this verse the word “raised” means “to be awakened, ” showing that the virgins were wakened by something other than themselves although it was their responsibility to get their torches or lights prepared. It will be Christ who will waken His people, but it will be our responsibility to get our light within prepared when we go out to meet Him. This parable shows that all ten of these virgins did the same things. They all ten took their lamps and went out to meet Jesus, though not all of them properly prepared themselves with a stock of oil. They all slept and slumbered, they all received the invitation to meet Him and they all arose and trimmed their lamps. The bottom line here is that Jesus knows the true hearts of man which is why only five were worthy to enter in through the door. If we do not run the race to the end and cross the finish line, we cannot receive the reward. In verse 8 the five foolish virgins ask the five wise virgins to give them some of their oil because their lights had gone out. “And the foolish virgins said to the wise, ‘Give us of your oil; for our lamps have gone out’.” This verse shows that even though these foolish virgins lamps ran out of oil, they still knew who Jesus Christ was. When the announcement of His soon arrival was sounded, they heard it loud and clear and suddenly realized they were not prepared for His coming. But it was too late. The five foolish virgins did not pay close attention to the Word of God or seek a serious relationship with Jesus, and the oil that was put in their lamps ran out. In other words, their lights which shine from within stopped shining. When Jesus comes He will be looking for the Light of the world which is His light shining from within His people. In verse 9 the five wise virgins refuse to share any of their oil. “But the wise answered, saying, ‘Not so unless there be not enough for us and you: But go you rather to them that sell and buy for yourselves.’” The truth of the matter is that even if the wise virgins wanted to they could not share their oil. It is Christ alone who gives the oil and it cannot be bought for any sum anywhere on this earth. Verse 10 says that while the five foolish virgins were out trying to buy the oil—which cannot be bought but is freely given to those who seek it—the Bridegroom came, the five wise virgins went in to Him and the marriage was consummated. And then the Bible says, “and the door was shut.” This door spoken of here is the same door spoken of in Revelation 4:1. It is a door that will be shut and no man will be able to re-open it. There is not one single word anywhere in the Bible about this door ever being opened again once it has been shut. This door is the door to God’s grace, open to all who would seek after it. But when this door is shut, the grace of God will be locked up on the other side of that door and those who are left behind will suffer the wrath of God. In verse 11 when the five foolish virgins see that they had been left behind they went to the door saying “Lord, Lord open to us.” The fact that the five foolish virgins called on the name of the Lord twice shows that they were very upset at the fact that they had been left behind. They were not saying “Oh well, I still have another chance.” They were upset because they knew that they had made a very serious mistake; they knew what was in store for them and they did not want to be here to receive it, and knew they would not get another chance because they had not been accepted by the Bridegroom. In verse 12 the bridegroom says to the five foolish virgins, “I know you not” (present tense). A reference to this door being shut is in Luke 13:24 and 25. “Strive to enter at the strait gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. “When once the master of the house is risen up, and has shut to, the door and you begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying Lord, Lord, open to us; and He shall answer and say to you, I know you not where you are.” And in Matthew 7:21 Christ says, “Not every one that says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of My Father which is in heaven.’” The powerful message in this parable is that even though these five foolish virgins knew who Jesus was, He did not know who they were because they did not have a right relationship with Him. And it will be because of the lack of a right heart that He will not know who those who will fall into the category of being foolish and will be left behind. There will be no other chance to go with the Bridegroom to the marriage supper. Those who do wrong because they do not know any better are considered to be ignorant but those who do wrong in spite of the fact that they know better are considered to be foolish. A bridegroom only accepts his bride once. These five foolish virgins did not finish the race. They fell away from the Lord and were unprepared for Him when He came back for His bride. In verse 13 Jesus tells us to be prepared for Him at all times because we do not know the day or the hour He will come. Not one person will be saved after the return of Jesus. There will not be a second chance because as this parable says, “The door will be shut”—which means all Scripture passages that speak about the persecution of the saints of God are speaking of the saints—who will be on the earth at the time of the first three-and-a-half of the seven years—before the Bridegroom comes for His bride. God is not going to leave us alone in the time of famine or any other form of earthly calamity. When others are hungry, He will be providing for his people. If you have true faith in God, He will be faithful to you and will never forsake you. If you have true relationship with the Father, He will see to it that you are provided for. Praise the God and Father of our Savior. Isaiah, chapter 65, is a prophetic chapter which speaks first of the resistance of the Israelite people to God, next of a blessing God will receive from a people other than the Israelites, then of the suffering the Israelite people will suffer because of their hardness of heart toward God. Fourth of how these people will be blessed and the Israelites will be in need, and lastly the chapter speaks of how some things will be during the tribulation period. Verses 13 and 14, “Therefore this says the Lord God, Behold, My servants shall eat, but you shall be hungry: Behold, My servants shall drink, But you shall be thirsty: Behold, My servants shall rejoice, but you shall be ashamed.” When there is famine in the land we can praise God because we will be fed, but anyone else including the Israelites will be hungry. When the water is partially turned to blood or bitter so that it cannot be drunk, we can praise God because we will be drinking clean untainted water. And in the face of all such tribulations we will have the joy of the Lord God our Savior. “Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart, but you shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit” (verse 14). This is why we will be hated of all men. We will be blessed above all men and they will be tormented. Revelation 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. This is the fourth beast speaking for the fourth time and the fourth seal to be broken. All of these represent God’s creative works. Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. A direct translation from the Greek to the English shows that the word “green” has been left out of the King James version of the Bible and the word Hades was changed to the word hell. This verse should be written as such. “And I saw, and behold, a pale green horse and the name of the [one] sitting on it was death and Hades followed with him. And authority was given to them to kill the fourth part [of mankind] with sword, and with famine, and with death, and by the wild beast of the earth.” In this verse the words “pale” or “pale green” signify someone who is discolored and, in this case, because the word “death” represents pestilence it will be people who will be discolored because of pestilence or disease. Famine invariably is followed by pestilence. And Hades, the place of departed souls, follows close behind to receive the dead. These tribulations are what God will use to purify our hearts, to create a perfect heart for a perfect bride. Think about it. After 9/11/01 all the Churches of America filled up which is proof that when times of trouble or tribulation arrive. People will run to God. The beasts spoken of in this verse are the animals of the earth. This will not be the first time God has used the animals of the earth to punish man because of his unrepented sins. Animals were used to kill the Israelites in the desert, and when a population is weakened by war, famine and pestilence the people will become easy prey for the beasts of the earth that also carry disease. So far we see that the seals represent the false Messiah— which is the Antichrist—war, famine and pestilence, and if we are protected from the famine, will we be protected from the pestilence? Although the Bible does not state specifically tha we will be protected we must remember that in verse 6 the order was simply “do not hurt the oil and wine” and the verse does not distinguish between famine or pestilence. It is a general order and covers all except for being persecuted for the name of Christ. This verse also states that power was given to Him over a fourth part of the earth. It doesn’t say a “third part of the earth” or a “fifth part” or a “sixth part” of the earth. It says a “fourth part.” This is the first and only time that something happens to a fourth part of the earth. In the rest of this book it happens in thirds. These first verses of chapter 6 speak of a period of affliction from a time of tribulation. Today we do have wars and famine and pestilence in various parts of the earth, but the Antichrist has not come to power, so these prophecies are still yet future. What the world is experiencing now are the birth pains of the Great Tribulation. Matthew 24:7 and 8 says, “For nation shall rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in different places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.” There are tribulations, but not worldwide earthquakes, famines, pestilences, wars and persecutions of the saints of God. When the Antichrist comes to power, soon afterward wars and worldwide persecution of the people of God will start and wars will bring famine and famine will bring pestilence. Today these things are not even happening to a fourth part of the earth. It is considerably less. Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: The altar spoken of here is the altar of incense which stood in the sanctuary or Holy Place or Holy of Holies. The witness or testimony that the souls under the throne where slain for, was the testimony or witness of the one true and only living God and of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. During the temple worship the blood of the offering was poured at the base of the altar and like those offerings these souls under the altar have already offered and given their lives in the Name that is above every name. Their offering was accepted and they are under the altar because they are still here in the earth resting in the bosom of Abraham—paradise—and not resting in heaven. Praise the one true living God and His Lamb of innocence. Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? In the book of Genesis when Cain killed Abel, God stated to Cain that the voice of his brother’s blood was crying out to him from the ground. “And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries to Me from the ground” (Genesis 4:10). It is amazing how the blood of the innocent has a voice that cries out and reaches all the way to heaven. And so, like the blood of Abel, the blood of these martyred souls today cry out to God to be avenged. The very fact that they are asking God to avenge them shows that at the time of the opening of the fifth seal, the punishment of God has not yet begun. Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. The white robes spoken of here are garments of purity given to all those who have completely given themselves over to God. These fellow servants and brethren are those who already have died, who are dying, and who will die during the Great Tribulation period for the testimony of our Savior Jesus Christ under the reign of the Antichrist. We should notice how the Bible says that these souls were given robes while John the Revelator was looking at them. We can only imagine what that must have looked like. Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Luke 21:32 says, “Verily I say to you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.” This verse is speaking of all of the signs and troubles spoken of in Revelation 6 and Matthew 24, as well as other scripture in regards to the signs of the end times. One teaching says that the generation spoken of in this verse is the generation of the time of Jesus because Jesus was speaking to the Jews of His day. But the word “generation” is used in this verse to speak of an age or period of time which is also called a dispensation of time. “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles. If you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: “How that by revelation He made known to me the mystery; (as I wrote before in few words), Whereby, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men. That the Gentiles be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel” (Ephesians 3:1-6). Today we live in the age of grace and when Christ returns for His Bride the age or generation of grace will be ended. One thing that cannot be denied is the fact that the sun has never turned black for more than just a few seconds during an eclipse, and the moon has never turned blood red to the point of not giving its light. This means that the generation spoken of in this verse is not the generation of just the days of Jesus but the generation or dispensation of time of the age of grace which is what we live in today. When I see the sun turn black and the moon red, I will lift my hands and head to heaven and praise God, for His Son will be coming to take me to everlasting life at any minute. Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. It is not exactly clear what these stars are. However, some say they are the stars we can see in the night sky and they will be falling to the earth or that the earth will shift out of its gravitational balance, which will cause the earth to wobble so that it will seem like the stars are falling. But most everybody knows that the stars we can see at night are planets, asteroids, comets or meteors and any meteors or comets big enough to be seen as a star in the night sky would be big enough to completely destroy the earth in just a few seconds if they hit the earth. Thus I do not think the word “stars” is representing anything like these. If we take into consideration the scripture before and after this verse, as well as other scripture like the parable of the wheat and tares, we can see that verse 13 speaks of the last sign that will happen just before the return of Christ. In verse 14, all will be able to see into heaven as the blackness will be rolled away like a scroll is opened. All three of these verses are speaking of the resurrection of the people of God and the return of Christ.Matthew 13:24-30 says: Another parable put He forth to them, saying “The kingdom of heaven is like a man [Christ] which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy [satan] came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said to him, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? From where then has it tares?” He said to them, “An enemy has done this.” The servants said to him, “Will you then that we go and gather them up?” But he said, “Nay; unless while you gather up the tares, you root up also the wheat with them.” In the parable’s explanation in verses 36-40 we can see that the word “stars” actually speaks of angels. “Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came to Him, saying, “Declare to us the parable of the tares of the field.” He answered and said to them, “He that sowed the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.” I believe that when the word “stars” is spoken of in this verse, it speaks for angelic reapers. Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. We will see later in this God-given book that the six seals are a set of the judgments of God just like September 11, 2001 was a judgment. In the time of John, a scroll had two sticks with end pieces on them and the parchment was rolled from the ends towards the middle when the scroll was being closed, depending on the size of the scroll. When the scroll was opened, it was rolled from the middle towards the outsides. This is what the sky will look like when the prophecy of this verse is fulfilled. When a scroll was opened in the temple, the Word of God was revealed, and when the scroll is opened in the future, the wonder and glory of God will be revealed to all of mankind. The mountains and islands will be moved out of their place because the powers of heaven and earth will be shaken. Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; In this verse the words “chief captains” have been rendered from the word “chiliarchs” in the Greek which means military commanders. This verse shows that all men—from the great rulers or kings of the earth to the slave and every kind of free man—will see the sky rolled back and be terrified of what they see. They will realize what a horrible mistake they have made by not believing in Jesus. Only unbelievers will be left on earth and what they see when the heaven departs will melt their hearts. Perhaps when the heavens are departed, the throne of God and He who sits on it will be revealed as John saw Him, which is why they will hope for death to come to them. People will for the first time realize the power of God. Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: We must realize that what people see will terrify them to the point that they would rather die than to suffer what is about to come, and they will know what is about to come to earth. They will know that they have been disobedient. Notice that this verse says the Lamb also comes with wrath. Many people think Jesus will come back to get His bride like a Lamb just as He left, but as we can see, He will not be so meek and peaceful. He will come as a Judge and when we are raised from the dead or changed, we will be judged by Jesus and the rest of the world will suffer His wrath. Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Praise God for His mercy and the sacrifice of His Son, for we will not be here to receive the wrath of Jesus. In this verse when it says “and who shall be able to stand,” the Word of God is telling us that there will not be one single person or evil spirit on earth that will be able to stand against the wrath of the Lamb. The seals are separate from the wrath of God. Everything Jesus spoke while He was on earth was directed toward and for His bride. Of course people get confused when they read Revelation and count the seals as part of the wrath of God. However, the wrath of God is by far more violent then any famine, pestilence or war, although there will be a short period of transition between the period of tribulation and the wrath of Christ. But we must remember that we are not going to suffer any of the wrath of Jesus; we will be protected from it. The seals are the purifying process God is going to put us through to make us ready, to bring about a perfect church— one without wrinkle or spot. Paul writes in Ephesians, “Husbands love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it: That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by word, That He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.” When this purifying process begins, many so-called lovers of Christ will forsake the bride or Body of Christ, as seen in 2 Peter 2:9-14: “The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of trials and temptations, But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they self willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Where as angels, which are greater in power and might, being not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these as brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not, and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceiving while they feast with you. They will give in to the flesh and the things of this world. Some of those who sit next to us every Sunday in church worshiping and fellowshipping with us will someday turn us in for being true lovers of Christ and will do it gladly. But praise be to God, for He will not forsake or leave us in the time when we will need Him the most. He will be with us no matter what situation we are in. The sequence of events in the six seals match up exactly with the sequence of events described in Matthew 24 and there are those who would teach that many of the things spoken of in Matthew 24 have already happened with the fall of Jerusalem at the hands of the Romans. However, in Matthew 24:21 Jesus says, “For then shall be Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be.” The fall of Jerusalem produced some horrible suffering for the Israelites. One of the ways they suffered was because of the shortage of food. The people inside of the city were so hungry that some of them ate their children and when they tried to escape, those on the inside of the city would kill them for leaving. Those who were able to escape, the Romans would feed them until their bellies would swell and burst open because it had been so long since they had eaten any real food that the body reacted violently. But that suffering was not nearly as bad as the suffering the Israelites endured at the hands of Adolf Hitler. From A.D. 67 to A.D. 70 about 600,000 Jews and gentiles were killed but during World War II more than 6 million Jews were slaughtered and hundreds of thousands of gentiles killed. Instead of just one city being at war, the whole world was at war. And because we know there will be yet another horrible tribulation, the teaching that says some of Matthew chapter 24 has already happened is a false teaching which is not backed up by Scripture because there have already been much worse calamities that have happened than the fall of Jerusalem in A.D.70.

I dislike any kind of bible commentary be it with or without a bible. Because bible commentaries are mostly based on a persons opinion more then the facts as recorded in the bible. Look at this web site as an example. How many folks here have basedf an opinion or interpretation that was not based on all of the scriptural facts? Not long ago I read a post about an opinion that was based on only half of a verse. I have seen commentaries that say that the person on the white horse Rev. 6:2 was the antichrist and another commentary that say he was Christ. Commentaries are unreliable

The word "Tribulation" in any bible, concordance or bible dictionary means or is speaking of a trial as in affliction IE the testing of ones resalve or commitment. The word Wrath in any bible, concordance or bible dictionary means and is speaking of the "Punishment of God". The word for tribulation is thlipsis it means tribulation, affliction, trouble, anguish, persecution, pressing together and pressure, Messiah spoke of the megathlipsis that will come upon us all at the end of the age. Wrath is orge/orgay and the word thumos is used also, it means wrath, fierceness, vengeance, indignation, anger exhibited in punishment or used in punishment. Thumos is wrath, fierceness, indignation, passion, anger, anger forthwith boiling up and soon subsiding.... They are different in meanings and usages. The tribulation is different than the wrath and we are not appointed to Gods wrath. I can come up with at least a dozen or so off the top of my head that most use for wrath thats only meant for tribulation but for the pretribbers nothing will do to take away their sense of comfort to think they are going to be whisked away so God can punish the Jews, which is what most pretribbers tell me anyhow that it is the Jews who are left behind so they can be punished. Sorry if that offends anyone out there just writing what I have been told over the dozen or so years people have been trying to convince me of a pretrib rapture and that theres two separate bodies and now the really silly theory that God has a wife and Messiah has a bride. shalom, Mizz You go girl. LOL Pretribbers believe in what I call "Escape Theoligy". By the way where did you get that info about the words tribulation and wrath?

By George I think you got it Oldshep.

The word "Tribulation" in any bible, concordance or bible dictionary means or is speaking of a trial as in affliction IE the testing of ones resalve or commitment. The word Wrath in any bible, concordance or bible dictionary means and is speaking of the "Punishment of God". Let us take a look at what the bible says about the wrath of God which is to come. The bible says that men shall seek death and death shall flee away from them, That men will say to the mountains "fall on us". effort to get away from the torment of the wrath of God. Men will be stuck in the day of wrath. Thier suffering such torment that they would rather die then to continue to suffer the wrath of God but the will not be about to die because God will not let them die. Forcing them to suffer with no escape from the torment. All of the water on the face of the earth will turn to a putrid, toxic mess of some kind of blood and I could go on. Folks like littlelamb believe that when the bible speaks about being hanged, tortured, haveing the head cut off, being put in jail and beaten, etc is all the wrath of God and that we as Christians are not appointed to suffer these kinds of torments because it is the wrath of God. But I can tell you with confidance that they are very wrong. Go to the web sites of www.persecution.org, The Voice of the martyrs and so on. We hear or read in the news things like a pastor and his two sons get burned alive while sleeping in there van by hindus in India. A group of Christian teen girls are attacked by Muslims while they were on their way to a Christian school. Four had their heads cut of and one servived. Or a Christian woman who was simply walking down a street when a Muslim man threw Acid into here face and the list goes on and on. Christians around the world are being persecuted and around 200,000 are murdered and many more are put into jail and tortured, held over an open flame so that the fire licks their belly in an effort to get them to reject Christ as their Lord and saveour and to be forcabily converted to Islam every single year. This is true persecution of the saints and it is only just beginning. What makes any of us think that we are so good that God is going to remove us from this kind of tribulation in this world? We are not better then those brothers and sisters who die daily for the name of Christ. If anything they are better then we are because they have been tried and have been washed clean and pure and have come out of great tribulation shining. We in America have no idea what it is like to be a Christian in most of the rest of the worldbut we are going to find out because that kind of tribulation is coming to America one day and then God will know just exactly which side we are on. If God can allow Christians around the world to suffer Great Tribulation as we speak he can allow it in America as well.

but both You said "Massorite, look at Noah - he and his family were the only ones save from the flood". Yes I agree but we should look at how God protected Noah and his family from the Flood. "He instructed Noah to build a boat that would protect his family from the flood "Without ever leaving the earth to do it" God did not Rapture nor did he need to Rapture Noah and family out of this world to protect them. We also should look at how it was in the days of Noah and frankly there is only one way to discribe it. Wickedness covered the whole earth and once again wickedness is beginning to cover the whole earth today. So now lets take a look at what God has done for Isreal in just the past 70 years. First of all He has brought them back together as a nation which was recignized as a nation by the whole world in 1948. Prophecy Fulfilled. The 6 day war in 1967. The Isrealites were out gunned and out manned by the forces of 4 or 5 that were much better equiped then Isreal was and they fought for 6 days and rested on the seventh day. BAM a modern day miracle done by God for his chosen people. Today as we are speaking the enemies out number the Isrealites by more then 35 to 1 yet Isreal at this point in time is protected from a full scale attack from all of her enemies because God is holding them back. They could defeat Isreal simply by running them over with nothing more then humans carrying rifles and hand guns. You wrote "That is the only reason for the Tribulation. For as long as the Church is here on earth God cannot turn His attention to Israel. {You did right this didn't you?} God is more then capable of protecting Isreal and his Bride at the same time". Today in Isreal there is the beginnings of a movement to turn to Christ already. Now I don't know about the jealousy of Isreal but you are correct on the sequence of events. JohnDB wrote "There is no other purpose the tribulation and the great tribulation serve than to open the eyes of the Jewish people and then you wrote "That is the only reason for the Tribulation'. I disagree whole heartedly. I do agree that one purpose of the Great tribulation is to wake up the Jewish people to thier Messiah but there is also another greater purpose for the great Tribulation. It is for the purpose of purifing the Bride of Christ in order to make them ready to be recieved by the Bride groom so that they are pure enough to be presented to the Father as an acceptable gift to the Father in the Fathers house which is in heaven. There are those that you sit next to every time you go to the house of worship who would turn on you in a heart beat to save their own hide, because you are a believer. There are those who commit unrepented sins that only the Lord can see who sit in church and act like a true lover of Christ just like those who are truly lovers of Christ nut are instead wolves in sheeps clothing. The bible uses Silver as an example of a pruifying process in the word of God on many occasions and here is the reason why. Silver in the raw is of course full of impurities and in order to purify that silver it needs to be heated up to the boiling point so that the impurities will raise to the top of the crusible and then they are scraped off. This is done 7 times to make silver as pure as it can be made and the number 7 represents the perfection of GOD. This is what is going to happen to the Bride of Christ during the period of Great Tribulation. When that period of tribulation has come to an end and the wrath of God comes to the earth all that will be left of the Bride of Christ will be those who are totally sold out to God. They will have no blemmish or spot and those Isrealites who have accepted Christ into them and ENDURED TO THE END will be among those who are the true Bride of Christ. In all of the history of the Bible God has never taken anyone out or off of this earth in order to protect them. He has always protected them where they stood here on earth. Are we apointed to suffer the wrath of God? No we are not and we will not be here when the wrath of God come to earth. I agree with JohnDB that it is all about Isreal but which Isreal is the bible speaking about? The chosen people of God which is Isreal a nation of Isrealites or is it Mystery Isreal, a nation of both ture Isrealites and adopted Isrealites? The answer is both. End time prophecy is about both nations of Isreal with the chosen people being left here on the earth when the wrath of God comes to the earth but will be protected from that wrath. Is there such a thing as seven years of tribulation? No way Hosa The words "seven years of tribulation" can not be found anywhere in the bible. There will be a period of seven years in which a period of tribulation will take place and then another period in which the wrath of God will take place but both events will take place within that seven year period.

I don't know where you got your info but my friend you have gotten it wrong. Just as it is done according to Jewish customs is as it will happen to the Bride of Jesus. When a man is to be married to a certain woman Jewish custom dictates that the Bride and Groom are first betrothed to one another. and this is done when the at a young age. When the time come,s and the bride has made herself ready the Groom and his entourage will go to the Bride's house and pick her and her entourage up and carry them back to his Fathers house and then the Groom will present the Bride to the Father as an acceptable gift. At that point the Wedding will take place and then the wedding supper. Right now we are in the "Betrothed stage" and we have not at all made ourselves worthy enough to be presented to the Father as an acceptable gift. That is why people are still being saved and many are still dieing in the name of Jesus. You even quoted the very scripture that tells you that you are mistaken. Rev 7:6 "They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. ". Rev. 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. We still suffer from the heat. Look at all of those who are starving to death because of drought. Places like Southern Sudan are perdominatly Christian yet they are dieing by the hudreds/thousands every month. Everything that verse 16 says that will not happen to us any more is still happening to us all around the world. Our tears are not wiped away. As long as we are still starving and bleeding and dieing in the name of Jesus and thirsting, non of the prophetic verses you have quote have been fulfilled. Dear concerned I have studied Revelation 7:14 KJV and have found that John Darby the father of dispensationalism also the new versions NIV, NASB, JW'S NWT, ETC have changed KJV past tense "came" to future tense "come" and added "the" before "great tribulation" they changed Gods word to create a future tribulation, as opposed to a current, or past time of great tribulation, the verse refrences the saints that have went "before us" they have changed Gods word to "saints in the future" untrue, many christians are unaware that the new versions have changed Gods truth, his word, one jot or a tittle, the changing and adding has made a false description of the saints seen in this verse, that have already "came" out of great tribulation, those that have went before us. John N. Darby 1800-1882: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby Revelation 7:14 KJV 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14 Darby Translation 14And I said to him, My lord, *thou* knowest. And he said to me, These are they who come out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14 New International Version (NIV) 14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 22:18-19 King James Version (KJV) 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Truth7t7 SORRY but I am not buying that. I agree that those versions of the bible have been changed but changing the word "came" to "come" doesn't deminish the fact that all of chapter 7 is completly futurestic and non of this chapter has not taken place yet. You give the plagiarizer way to much credit. Do you know what a tittle is? The post was to show, that Revelation 7:14 KJV isn't futuristic, then you write in agreement that the verse was changed by Darby, and new versions, then you state that changing "came" to "come" and adding "the" before great tribulation did'nt change the meaning, I "disagree" this verse shows that the event has taken place in the past, the event is in the spiritual realm and is "taking place now" as you read this post, the new versions have changed Gods word to create this event in the future, "Deception"! Truth7t7 First of all I never said that I agree that Darby ever had the power and influence to change anything in any bible. That is what you said. I took you at your word and decided to see if what you said about these bibles was true and I was surprised to see that they were. However there is no proof that Darby was responsible for those changes and as far as I can tell all of the newest versions were all done by groups of people. So in order for Darby to have been successful in corrupting scripture, He would have had to convince many people that he was right. Take the NIV for example, it was not done by one person but by many people who came together and agreed/interpreted as they saw fit. So did the "International Bible Society" get it right? No Way Hosae. The NIV is one of the most corrupted bible versions in the world to day. They not only changed single words, they removed sections of verses all together I don,t base what I believe on just one single word being changed. I base what I believe on many scriptures no matter what the subject is and when I do research I leave no stone un turned. It seems that you have taken "one single changed word" and decided that one single word has made many other scriptures of non-effect which makes your opinion/belief a belief with no biblical re-enforcement. And you have blaming Mr. Darby for being able to corrupt scripture with no proof at all that he did anything you are accusing him of and that my brother is what the word of God calls "a false accusation against another brother in Christ" Now I do not agree with many of the teachings of Darby but he would never have been able to go where he went with his ministry without the blessings of God. You wrote "Revelation 7:3: Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. So, the Rapture, in the opinion of the Mid-Trib believers has just occurred and it is now time for twelve thousand, from each of the twelve tribes of Israel to be sealed as belonging to the LORD. Verse three has nothing what so ever to do with "the rapture/resurrection". I base the belief on what verses 2, 3 & 4 say. And I might add that those who take the Mid - Trib position do not believe that this verse is speaking about the resurrection. In fact there are no scriptures that tell us how close the resurrection is to the sealing of the 144,000. Whether it will be before or after the resurrection so again you have made another assumption. You never did tell me if you know what a tittle is and here is some more food for thought. Which tribe is missing from the above list of the tribes of Isreal? You never answered the previous post, the changing of Revelation 7:14 KJV has changed the entire meaning of scripture, the KJV has past tense "came" to Darby, NIV, etc future tense "come" and they added "the" before great tribulation, "THEY CHANGED THE ENTIRE TEXT OF THE VERSE AND MEANING" to create a false view that the saints seen in Rev 7:14 KJV will be in the future, when in reality the have "came" past tense, and are reigning now with the Lord Jesus in the spiritual realm! John N. Darby, the father of Dispensationalism, did create a false translation, it's known as the Darby translation, he made several changes, to falsely make his translation agree with his false teachings of dispensationalism, a system he invented, no false accusation on Darby, a factual and "TRUE" account! Truth7t7 Ok I guess no matter what anybody says or what scripture you are shown YOU ARE GOING TO BELIEVE what ever you want to believe no matter what scripture says. So "As you wish".

I don't know where you got your info but my friend you have gotten it wrong. Just as it is done according to Jewish customs is as it will happen to the Bride of Jesus. When a man is to be married to a certain woman Jewish custom dictates that the Bride and Groom are first betrothed to one another. and this is done when the at a young age. When the time come,s and the bride has made herself ready the Groom and his entourage will go to the Bride's house and pick her and her entourage up and carry them back to his Fathers house and then the Groom will present the Bride to the Father as an acceptable gift. At that point the Wedding will take place and then the wedding supper. Right now we are in the "Betrothed stage" and we have not at all made ourselves worthy enough to be presented to the Father as an acceptable gift. That is why people are still being saved and many are still dieing in the name of Jesus. You even quoted the very scripture that tells you that you are mistaken. Rev 7:6 "They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. ". Rev. 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. We still suffer from the heat. Look at all of those who are starving to death because of drought. Places like Southern Sudan are perdominatly Christian yet they are dieing by the hudreds/thousands every month. Everything that verse 16 says that will not happen to us any more is still happening to us all around the world. Our tears are not wiped away. As long as we are still starving and bleeding and dieing in the name of Jesus and thirsting, non of the prophetic verses you have quote have been fulfilled. Dear concerned I have studied Revelation 7:14 KJV and have found that John Darby the father of dispensationalism also the new versions NIV, NASB, JW'S NWT, ETC have changed KJV past tense "came" to future tense "come" and added "the" before "great tribulation" they changed Gods word to create a future tribulation, as opposed to a current, or past time of great tribulation, the verse refrences the saints that have went "before us" they have changed Gods word to "saints in the future" untrue, many christians are unaware that the new versions have changed Gods truth, his word, one jot or a tittle, the changing and adding has made a false description of the saints seen in this verse, that have already "came" out of great tribulation, those that have went before us. John N. Darby 1800-1882: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby Revelation 7:14 KJV 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14 Darby Translation 14And I said to him, My lord, *thou* knowest. And he said to me, These are they who come out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14 New International Version (NIV) 14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 22:18-19 King James Version (KJV) 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Truth7t7 SORRY but I am not buying that. I agree that those versions of the bible have been changed but changing the word "came" to "come" doesn't deminish the fact that all of chapter 7 is completly futurestic and non of this chapter has not taken place yet. You give the plagiarizer way to much credit. Do you know what a tittle is? The post was to show, that Revelation 7:14 KJV isn't futuristic, then you write in agreement that the verse was changed by Darby, and new versions, then you state that changing "came" to "come" and adding "the" before great tribulation did'nt change the meaning, I "disagree" this verse shows that the event has taken place in the past, the event is in the spiritual realm and is "taking place now" as you read this post, the new versions have changed Gods word to create this event in the future, "Deception"! Truth7t7 First of all I never said that I agree that Darby ever had the power and influence to change anything in any bible. That is what you said. I took you at your word and decided to see if what you said about these bibles was true and I was surprised to see that they were. However there is no proof that Darby was responsible for those changes and as far as I can tell all of the newest versions were all done by groups of people. So in order for Darby to have been successful in corrupting scripture, He would have had to convince many people that he was right. Take the NIV for example, it was not done by one person but by many people who came together and agreed/interpreted as they saw fit. So did the "International Bible Society" get it right? No Way Hosae. The NIV is one of the most corrupted bible versions in the world to day. They not only changed single words, they removed sections of verses all together I don,t base what I believe on just one single word being changed. I base what I believe on many scriptures no matter what the subject is and when I do research I leave no stone un turned. It seems that you have taken "one single changed word" and decided that one single word has made many other scriptures of non-effect which makes your opinion/belief a belief with no biblical re-enforcement. And you have blaming Mr. Darby for being able to corrupt scripture with no proof at all that he did anything you are accusing him of and that my brother is what the word of God calls "a false accusation against another brother in Christ" Now I do not agree with many of the teachings of Darby but he would never have been able to go where he went with his ministry without the blessings of God. You wrote "Revelation 7:3: Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. So, the Rapture, in the opinion of the Mid-Trib believers has just occurred and it is now time for twelve thousand, from each of the twelve tribes of Israel to be sealed as belonging to the LORD. Verse three has nothing what so ever to do with "the rapture/resurrection". I base the belief on what verses 2, 3 & 4 say. And I might add that those who take the Mid - Trib position do not believe that this verse is speaking about the resurrection. In fact there are no scriptures that tell us how close the resurrection is to the sealing of the 144,000. Whether it will be before or after the resurrection so again you have made another assumption. You never did tell me if you know what a tittle is and here is some more food for thought. Which tribe is missing from the above list of the tribes of Isreal? You never answered the previous post, the changing of Revelation 7:14 KJV has changed the entire meaning of scripture, the KJV has past tense "came" to Darby, NIV, etc future tense "come" and they added "the" before great tribulation, "THEY CHANGED THE ENTIRE TEXT OF THE VERSE AND MEANING" to create a false view that the saints seen in Rev 7:14 KJV will be in the future, when in reality the have "came" past tense, and are reigning now with the Lord Jesus in the spiritual realm! John N. Darby, the father of Dispensationalism, did create a false translation, it's known as the Darby translation, he made several changes, to falsely make his translation agree with his false teachings of dispensationalism, a system he invented, no false accusation on Darby, a factual and "TRUE" account! Truth7t7

is there really a rapture? is the wedding of the Lord on the earth or in the heavens? The "Rapture" is the same thing as the "Resurrection". Some folks like to make them diferrent but they are not. The Wedding feast will be held in Heaven.

THAT Though I am not wanting to argue the same over and over again, how it is read in Greek is not "came" or "came" but "ones-coming". The Greek word is "erchomenoi". I agree with you. It doesn't matter if it is came or come. It is still future. John is being a shown a spectacle of events in the scroll that haven't happened. The text of Revelation is full of words, which outside of the fact that John was taken to heaven and shown future events presented to him spectacle to spectacle, would be past in normal conversation. For example Revelation 14:4... speaking of the 144,000, "Theses were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." The 144,000 have not yet been sealed, yet it says "were redeemed". It doesn't say "shall be redeemed" because Revelation places John seeing events unfold before him, spectacle to spectacle. Another example in Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation.... And English major would have said "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which shall be poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation. Revelation has to be read as though the reader is there with John. Doug THAT'S WHAT I,M TALKING ABOUT.