Two Lamps

How do you know God has called you to do this? I know that I am called to serve in ministry. It is what I live and breathe. Whether I am called specifically to plant churches or not remains to be seen. I know that I am a starter. I know that I am a teacher. I know that I am a seed planter (evangelist). If this is God's will, He will bless it. If not, He won't and I will be that much closer to what He does want. Is your church ready to invest lots of cash in you? No. That is not the model we are using. The parish, the diocese, not even the province have the money to fund this venture. It is entirely a volunteer effort. I have a side business that affords me a lot of scheduling flexibility. My husband has a similarly flexible small business and works a fulltime job. We'll worry about money later. Right now, we are just making connections and studying the Word. So far, it is church in our living room. Do you have testimonies about how God has brought you through impossible issues? I ask because you will need to know how to live by faith when things do not go as planned, like faith promises to give and they do not come through. Oh, you betcha! Try paying two mortgages on one salary for 2+ years without relying upon God. We have seen God do the impossible in our lives plenty of times. We don't even stress out anymore when disasters befall us. We just hit our knees and ask Him how He's going to work this one out. And, it always does work out. We've really learned what's important and what we need to let go of. God is so big, and our problems are so small. Are you reaching strangers for Christ now? Have you ever discipled someone from non-believer to spirit-filled disciple of Christ ever in your life? No, not really. I have no problem sharing my faith, but I have not personally led someone through the final stage of commitment to Christ. I'm not really involved in concerted efforts to reach the unreached, but the subject of Jesus sure does seem to come up naturally a lot. I end up evangelizing as I go. I want to do more. I am looking for more opportunities to get to know people in our community. With more connections come more conversations and more seed planting. Have you ever organized people to accomplished something, like a food drive, shelter, community work, ect? Yes. In the last five years, I have been allowed a number of opportunities in church to spearhead projects, coordinate events, and be a regular part of teaching and discipleship. These are just a few of the things you should think about before jumping in and wasting the churches resources. Planting is a supernatural thing, therefore one needs to know if they are called or not. A calling is a lot different from a job and should be thought through with prayer and fasting and confirmation. I totally agree with you. Any ministry is a supernatural thing. Thank you for challenging me with these questions. I appreciate your candor and your thoughts. What do you mean by "confirmation"? Do you mean whether others confirm that they see a calling or agree that we should do this? If not, please explain. If so, our vestry (like a church board) has just unanimously commissioned us as church planters under their authority. We did not want to move forward without first getting their say-so. Now, that we have it, we held our first Bible study on Thursday. My best advice would be for you and your family to go to some struggling church and get behind the leadership to help that church grow and learn about the inner wokings and issues of church life, all the while praying and fasting and looking for God to confirm His will for you and your life. Blessings! This is kind of what we have done for the last three years at our sending parish. However, to find a small, struggling church nearby to bolster would be impossible. Ours is the only parish of our denomination for about 500 miles. There is no other church to get behind. But, I do see your point. You are suggesting that we get some concrete experience in church leadership before trying to start another one. Good advice! There are also many struggling churches that need help. I hear that, too. However, the existing churches in our area don't seem to be effectively reaching the community. We see church planting not as a way to expand the institution, but a way to spread the gospel. All else is secondary to that goal. Thanks Fez and e lansing for the advice and questions. Keep them coming. I'm sure there is more to consider than what we have considered thus far. I am looking at that New Covenant Ministries website right now. Thank you everyone for your prayers!

Thank you! Thank you!

Prayer first. People second. Property last. ...Hey, there's a 3 point sermon in that for sure!

Awesome! Thank you!

I am not going to begin to defend myself as a would-be church planter. That would not be the right attitude. Furthermore, I firmly believe that, although training and experience are important (and whether I have enough of those things is certainly debatable), being available for use by the Holy Spirit is the ultimate qualification. I am so willing. Toward that end, I ask for prayers. Toward the training issue, I am asking for resources. You mentioned that one couple took a three month training course. What course is that? I'd be very interested in that. I never took any church planting courses in seminary, and I don't have the prereqs to do it now. Know any good books on the subject? I just bought Viral Churches and The Celtic Way of Evangelism. I have also checked out a stack of books from the library on church planting, missional ministry, and leadership. Aubrey Malphurs, Stuart Murray, Ezra Earl Jones, Jerry Doherty, etc. I'll need more books when I get through these. Toward the experience issue, I am asking for advice. Have I been a pastor of a church? No. Nor, do I want to be. I see my job as a launchpad, a catalyst, a (as my mother affectionately calls me) spiritual arsonist. I am not supposed to build up a church to pastor for the next 20-30 years. I am supposed to start things, train people up, and then move on to the next project. So, I hear your caution, but I am not sure that I understand it. I figure that the worst that comes out of this is that a "church" never actually gets off the ground, but we have a really good Bible study. Are there specific dangers I should be aware of? What pitfalls do you see? Common mistakes? If your caution is just "be careful", that's not very helpful to me, though I appreciate you voicing it. It takes some courage to voice caution when someone is excited, and I want to really hear you.

Witnessing or evangelizing is no different than sharing your favorite movie, book, or restaurant. Yes, your life should evidence your faith and make people curious, but you should also be overt about sharing your faith as well. The Holy Spirit will lead you into potentially evangelistic situations, but it does take time to develop the sense to hear Him. Walking up to some stranger and opening with, "Do you know Christ?" is probably a non-starter (unless the Holy Spirit specifically directs you to). It is better to make relationships and talk about what excites you, makes you joyful, gives you hope. It sounds like you are being guilted into evangelizing. If that is the case, it will not be genuine and people pick up on that. Your apprehension, then, is wise. My advice is to get joyful and then get vocal. How to get or stay joyful? Keep your focus on God. It is pretty difficult to be downcast and afraid when we are enrapt with the face of our Savior. More pragmatically, practice on your dog, talk to your kids about Jesus, get an evangelism buddy who is working on the same thing and role-play together, preach to the windshield on your way to work, practice, practice, practice. But, mostly, let your joy about Jesus out into the air. Nothing is more attractive than joy. Recently, someone suggested a three minute approach to evangelism that might help clarify your thoughts. If you can explain 1) what Jesus means to you, 2) how you came to know Him, and 3) how you have been transformed by knowing Him in three minutes, you can share the gospel through your own story with strangers at a bus stop, in line at the grocery store, or your neighbor. Start by being yourself. If your thought life is filled with Jesus, it will come up in conversation. Also, you can pray that the Holy Spirit bring you opportunities to witness. Every time I have prayed that prayer, it has been answered! The best advice ever is to pray, keep on praying, don't ever stop praying. When you don't know the answer to a question, just be honest... "Ya know, I don't know that one. I'll have to look it up" or "I don't know, let's see what the Bible has to say about that <and then open your Bible>". Don't expect to be Luis Palau or Billy Graham overnight. Just be yourself and be in love with the Savior. That's what it takes to be an evangelist. Eventually, you will find that your faith just falls out of your mouth naturally. When that started happening to me, I was stunned. I said that?! Wow, that sounded like an evangelist. No, it sounded like someone who knows beyond a doubt who Jesus is and what He has done. You can do this. ;-)

The title of the topic pretty much says it. I have so many questions, and I need some resources on how to get those questions answered. Specifically, I need the beginning steps 1-2-3 to get started. I have plenty of vision for the middle and release stages, but no idea how to start. Our church's leadership is totally on board and willing to commission us, but they don't know anything about planting a church either! So, any advice, resources, and prayers (nothing will happen without prayer!) will be much appreciated. Thank you.

Oh, we are whizzing passed fascism and heading straight for communism. Oh yeah, and socialism was about five miles back.

This article is no longer available at the CNP site. Does anyone have a copy of it? I would like to use it for Sunday school class tomorrow morning. Thanks! (twolamps @ brightblades . com)

If it weren't for the abhorant violence that has ensued, I would say that this situation is utterly ridiculous. Not only is violence an inappropriate reaction to political cartoons, but the scope of the reaction is absurd. What in the world do Austrian, Swedish, and US embassies have to do with these cartoons?? So, is the Arab world upset because the western world has freedom of the press, that Denmark has not crushed those responsible for saying not-nice things about their prophet? This is not a Danish national issue; it is an issue with the discretion of the newspaper editor. So, they shouldn't even be attacking the Danish embassies. Now, I haven't been able to find a copy of those cartoons that everyone is so up in arms about. They may be in bad taste. They may be inaccurate. I have no way of knowing that because to reprint them means more unbridled, vehement reactionism. But, regardless of the possible merit of the complaint, this violent reaction is just plain stupid. And then, there is the matter of the holocaust cartoon contest. Again I ask, what does the holocaust have to do with Danish political cartoons?? This is such an obvious excuse for them to bash Israel once again. This is a childish response, and completely irrelevant to the situation at hand. But then, I guess if you're paranoid delusional you can make such leaps of logic that don't make sense to the rest of us and certainly don't jive with reality. I am just sick of the childish temper tantrums of the Muslim Street. And, I am just as sick of the international community pandering to them. When is someone going to give the Arab world a time-out and send them to their room to think about more appropriate behavioral statements? How about some sanity?

Here is a question for all of you who seem so sure of yourselves. How would you classify receiving a "word of knowledge"? Is that psyvhic? Or, is that Spirit led ministry? What is the difference? If the psychic tells the truth and reliably points to and honors God, could it then be another gift of the Spirit? Here's my two cents worth. Of course, we need to be careful who we listen to. Of course, discernment should be exercised. And, yes, consulting psychics indiscriminately is just inviting demonic oppression. But, I don't think we should just say, across the board, that anyone who claims to know something they shouldn't know is spouting evil or under the influence. That is just lazy Christianity. Daughter of the King, it was a good question.

Of course you post counts. And, thank you for your input. I was just hoping that I would get input from more people. Volume of data is very important when trying to persuade someone to another point of view. I realized after the fact that I put this thread in the wrong section. But, geez, I don't really have anything to bring to the class now. The class has remained very intellectually aloof as I had feared. Demons were brought up very briefly last week just to say that some wacko christians believe in them, but that they are really just a personification of our fears. I really wanted to combat that way of thinking. Oh well, another battle lost. My mother has her head screwed on straight about spiritual warfare. And, that is her church. So, maybe she'll work on them over time. It was just such a unique opportunity. Thank you to those who did try to help me. I really appreciate the response.

Come on guys. This is the third week of the class and it's tomorrow. Doesn't anyone else have some information or opinions for me to bring to the class? These people will be left with nothing but a liberal, humanist slant on spiritual warfare without another voice. This is important to me.

Bible Student, thank you for that. Some of that will be helpful. Anyone else?

I have just begun a class with my mother's church on the nature of evil. The Priest there observed that so many of the past year's movies and t.v. shows have a great deal to do with evil vs. good. It seems that for the first time in 50 years, hollywood is contemplating heaven and hell. But, of course, they contemplate hell first. So, this priest figures that this is a subject that people are hungry for answers on.... or at least a forum to explore the idea. Indeed, when she asked if there were any particular points of interest that people wanted to explore during the 4 weeks and I said, "tactics in spiritual warfare", I heard one person say, "Ooh that's good." Well, I figured that this class would be some educational, some clarifying of my own thoughts on the matter, and at least a good exercise to keep me on my toes theologically. But, while sitting through that class yesterday, I realized that my mother and I are probably the only ones in that room who are conscious of any dealings with demonic forces. These people are at the "kindergarten level" as my mom put it as far as theology goes. They are very good and loving people who have been very sheltered. Well, if you grew up in the jungle, your parents would tell you about all the dangerous animals that lived there in order to protect you. To neglect to tell your children about the deadly snakes that blend in with the scenery is tantamount to delivering them into a snake pit. These people are just as vulnerable not understanding the tactics of the enemy. I'm not sure how many of them really believe in hell, satan, or demons. We will see as the class goes on. Anyway, the priest who is facilitating this class encourages participants to do their own research and present it to the class. I would like to make a presentation on spiritual warfare. I started a thread on this several years ago. And, there was really good stuff in there I can use (if I can still find that thread in the archives). However, I wanted to get some direct and purposeful discussion on the nature of evil, tactics of the enemy, weapons in our arsenal, and our place in the spiritual war going on around us all the time. Now, these are Episcopalians. They tend to be very prideful and preoccupied with intellectualism. So, try, if you can, to strip the evangelical "lingo" from your speech and explain your take on things in as plain language as you can. The lingo will close their ears before they have heard your message. I am looking for your definitions, experiences, musings on this subject. This is not a place to educate each other so much as a place to deposit the summary of your understanding for the benefit of others who know so little that they do not even have the terms to discuss it. The class is only 4 weeks long and we just had week 1. So, I will need to collect all the data to make my presentation by early in the week of May 16th. After that, anything in this thread will be for anyone else who wants to read it. So, happy typing and thanks for your input!

Hey guys, let me throw a fresh perspective into the mix. Here is what I was taught at college about why jews are hated. In the very early church, christianity was just another sect of Judaism like the Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Essenes. The Roman government banned christianity. Well, we know how well that worked. A persecuted church is always a strong church. But, one of things the Romans did was to persecute synagogues that had christians in their congregations. So, to protect themselves, many of the jews would beat and denouce to the Romans any christian they found among them. Naturally, this practice would put a damper on the relationship between christians and jews. And so, a separation between the two traditions developed. I don't think it's really appropriate to say that "the jews killed Jesus". Sure, some jews plotted against him, but many more jews were devoted to him. The Jewish nation is not responsible for Jesus' death. We are. Everyone who sins (and that would be all of us) caused the necessity of atonement. He was the only just redemtion. I agree with what Yod and Faith1 said earlier about the jews being hated because the Jewish nation is of God. Evil attacks what is good and what God loves. It's very simple stuff to me.

I'm going to answer the points Brad and Yod brought up that aren't loaded. Firstly, when dealing with prophesy, all is purely supposition. If it were as simple and plain as many think (even me), then we wouldn't be arguing about it, would we? Things will unfold as God wills them. I am content with that. I may find out at the End of the World that I was wrong. I am okay with that. Then again, we may find out that Brad and Yod were wrong. Oh well, nobody knows everything. Putting the Israeli court building on my "watch the enemy" list is just that. I will be watching. The American government is also on that list. No, America is not torturing christians and jews.... not yet. Give it time. Legislatively and by popular opinion interpreted by the media and espoused on college campuses, christians and jews are being discriminated against. It is a mild form of persecution, yes. Why do you think that many people are all up in arms about the racist rhetoric coming out of Europe these days? It's because in the first half of the 20th century the holocaust was preceded by racist rhetoric and legislated persecution. I hesitated even putting America on that list because of the very reaction you had to it being there. But, I feel that people need to recognize that the roots of toruturous persecution are in rhetoric and legislation. I am glad that My Rock posted this topic. I enjoyed adding to my knowledge. I have a new area of study to look at. I would like to discuss it further in an atmosphere of equity and trust. I hope that can be accomplished here without impediment. BTW, what is dispensationalism? No one has been able to adequately explain it to me.

Yod, just because you are paranoid does not mean that they're not out to get you. Why do you think that christians are being attacked in Indonesia, Sudan, Egypt, France, America, China..... need I go on? Because christians are the enemy of evil. Jews, likewise, are the enemy of evil and so come under attack just like we do. Only the enemy has had more time to instill hatred of jews than christians. If this guy, Golden, is speaking the truth, then he will come under attack. I have to say that what he says is, at least, plausible. Like Eric, I will have to look into it more, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand just yet. Oh, and about the popes of the Middle Ages being the anti-christ, the A/C is supposed to be worse than all of them combined. That interpretation of the prophesy is just wishful thinking. Hard times are coming, but you are right about one thing, Brad. Food stores and guns won't save us. Only Jesus will. I, for one, am going to keep an eye on what happens at that building in the coming years, just as I am keeping an eye on a number of possibilities relating to prophetic fulfillment. Events will unfold as God sees fit. Our job is to just be ready. Thanks for the heads up, My Rock.

First, let me express my dismay that you watch the Clinton News Network and take it seriously! Then, let me, likewise, express my incredulity that you watch Crossfire and take it seriously! The whole purpose of that show is to entertain through inflammatory rhetoric at 60 mph. That show is amazingly biassed. Don't let that be a basis for any opinion you conclude. Secondly, of course the media is crucifying him. Look at the accusation. Look at the 1993 case and how suspiciously that ended. Look at his habits with children. Look at his mental instability. Even if he is innocent, (which I will concede is a possibility--he is pretty messed up in the head, but he does care about kids as per his understanding), you have to admit he could handle his liasons with children a little less surreptiously. He kind of walked into the propeller blades. Thirdly, let's just wait and see if the courts can reveal what actually happened. My opinion is that he is guilty and needs intensive, long-term psychotherapy. But, as (I think it was Bill) someone said, he is considered under the law to be innocent until proven guilty. If this were really a witch hunt, no one would care about the truth. He has to be tried for this. Even if he is innocent, if he never gets tried for the crime he's accused of, a clear message of apathy will be sent to not only those two boys who have accused him thus far but to anyone who has been abused. It will also send a message of complicitousness to would-be abusers. This is not a good senario. Fourthly, any petition you could manage to drum up won't have any impact on the reality of the situation. I hope he is innocent, because his guilt would mean just one more shattered icon of innocence. It's true he's been given a gift of musical talent. It's true that he spends him time and money trying to help kids. I would hate to see him fall. But, if he does fall, it will be because he jumped over the edge. But, while I hope for the best for him, I expect that the worst is, in fact, true. One this is for certain. I would never let my child spend time with him. I think any parent who does is being irresponsible. There is a difference between advocating for the man's rights and enabling and encouraging someone to hurt another, especially someone who can't defend himself. I think Michael Jackson's true colors will come out in how he and his lawyer de jour go about the defense. If they choose to villify the boy or his mother, we will know just how trustworthy Mr. Jackson is.

Well, here's another one we thought we had under control: the flu. The Fujian H3N2 strain of flu has already dropped a number of people even before the official flue season began. I heard the flue shot doesn't even phase this strain. We'll see if this goes the way of the others we've discussed here.

Now, George, you're not planning on leaving Worthy Ministries, are you? Are you passing the torch or just moving the torch? Well, regardless, the Lord is obviously using you in His amazing ways for His amazing purposes? I pray His hand of blessing upon you. Oops! It's already there! My one piece of advice: Don't forget to take time for joy. Here's a big hug from your favorite, pesky Montana chick. Oh, and like God-Man said, post pictures! :tongue:

Whenis that movie coming out again? I definitely want to go see it on opening day.

Wow, Nebula! That article blows me away. I'm so glad you posted that. I am appalled at that bishop's (Ihloff) behavior. Why is it that a bishop violating the canons of the church is merely exercising his conscience when he ordains a homosexual to the priesthood, but a priest who chooses to leave the communion to exercise his conscience over a decision that violates the scripture is considered for defrocking?! I'm angry. This is not the Episcopal Church I know and love. "Delusions of grandeur" for conscientiously objecting?! "We don't use the media to discuss church matters." Then, what does the Church use, because I am not getting much out of the Episcopal News Service either? There is certainly plenty to be upset about here. And, yes, all the scriptures you guys have been quoting apply. But, can it really be that simple? What about all those "Episcopal conservatives" who "are awaiting the outcome of an emergency session of the world's 38 Anglican archbishops in London before deciding whether to leave the denomination" the category in which I find myself? Are you saying they should just give up on their church family as if there were no heart ties? However, I can't help but be stopped in my tracks at that last line, "I cannot in good conscience bring a new Christian to the Episcopal Church." I would have to agree with that right now. I don't know whether this will always be the case. The Church may correct its action. There is a viable opportunity to minister (admonish) in the Episcopal Church in this situation. Churches have been known to be reformed from the inside. And, yes, sadly, churches have also been known to have been infiltrated and corrupted from the inside as well. I am a confuzed Episcopalian. I want to do what is right in the sight of God. But, I don't want to turn my back on the "least of these" that Jesus spoke of either. I don't want to turn my back on my brothers and sisters. I think this issue is much more complicated than any of you realize. I think we should all pray over the Episcopal Church that they stop the institutionalized heresy and teach the whole scripture. We should pray over the people in the Episcopal Church, individuals like me who don't know who stands with them, who are just trying to do the right thing. We should pray for guidance on how to minister in this crisis as the Spirit will lead us. Perhaps I have spent too much time in a degrading Church. Perhaps my call for understanding is appropriate. But, regardless, I stand, as I have, quite unsecurely atop this precarious fence. I welcome the well-placed shove that will enable me to know what God would like me to do about whether or not to leave the Episcopal Church.

Man! I want to know what that guy was preaching about!

Oh this is not my day. The second link is broken. Can you post it, please?