Grungekid

Let it be known that I doubt none of its tenants, but I fear the book of Revelation is so metaphorical that its total meaning will not be discerned until the events it describes have come to pass.

Unless you are an amputee. Like the original post, so much false information. Uh, Negative Cool, I think at least a few of those were meant in a figurative sense, and although there are some blunders, I'm sure, you really didn't address any of his key points. And in what sense does God not heal the amputees? Losing a limb is certainly terrible, but it's far worse than the complications of leaving an infected one in tact.

Even though there are parallels with this in Christianity? The third chapter of Genesis comes to mind.

I live in Idaho. We even have a Christian club at our school, as cliquish as that sounds.

That is an excellent point, Rebekah! Jesus claimed to be the embodiment of truth AND also claimed to be eternal life (zoe). He also claimed to be the resurrection and the Life (zoe). Jesus claims to be far more than just a man. Through the course of several gospels, if I'm not mistaken. After reading Paul's epistles, there really can't be any doubts about the Biblical validity of Christ's place in the Trinity. Look, if Jesus isn't God, then all of Christianity is blasphemy: venerating a human agent of the Divine over the Divine Himself.

Que?

Saved us from our own innate evil. Didn't Jesus say greater things would be done? I don't know that we can set limits for Him, but He limits Himself for us on occasion. Seems like it to me. Well, we're not all dead, or suffering without the existence of holiness in our lives.

I used to think this was a good piece of evidence for Christianity---until 9/11. Using this reasoning, where does it put ben Laden? How many people died for him on 9/11 and thereafter. Bad example. Bin Laden exists.

Because we learn to rely on Him in order to make it through our struggles. It's sobering, but it's also a big part of life; taking your blows in stride. To me, nothing makes more sense in our existence.

I see predestination riddles the whole post. Do you think God allows people to go to Hell, or do they decide? Does He force them to turn from Him? Why does He rebuke the ones He loves?

And... is it wrong, or what?

So if people are speaking negatively about Christ or God you'll just be quiet and totally let them do that. When you truly hold something in high regards, do you let people blow their mouth off about it? I don't, but I guess the way I respect something is outdated.

Certain pagans and even a number of disillusioned pentecostles are also interested in demeaning a number of people for their faith.

He did say to Love all, no matter what, but I don't think he wanted us to be totally passive. He didn't just let cons take control of the temple, you know.

He didn't do nothing, or else it never would have ended. God allows us to endure evil to test our faith, to test the faith of those around us, and to help us grow in life. Sometimes a good doctor has to injure a patient to make them stronger. I'd also like to note that sin, and therefore evil, are results of our own free will. The Bible speaks of Adam and Eve, the first human beings, and their decision to disobey God and learn of the polar opposite of all that is negative - evil. People like Sam Harris all dismiss it because it sounds like a fairy tale, but they don't realize that it's a great parable of the battle between morallity and personal desire that occurs in all of us. Anyone, put in their place, would have lost in the same way. It's an emotional reaction to the dark facts of life. God can't exist because you don't think He would let this happen. If there is anything so beautiful in life, it has to behave just how you would expect it. I don't think it's logical at all. I think it's more logical to assume that the evil that occurs in life has its God-given purpose, whatever that may be, because that makes sense: why should we think of suffering the way we do if it means nothing? Oh let me guess, we 'evolved that way.' The answer to every question concerning humanity. Woefully shallow, and woefully inadequate. I can see the merit of the Problem of Evil if you believe that God is supposed to be completely understood by human beings, but we aren't perfect, therefore it follows that God would not be like us, and therefore unlike what our sense of reason depicts Him as being. I can't? Just like you can't explain away everything that happens to people suggesting a spiritual side of life? Oh, we can both explain away whatever we want to, Cycel. We will. Just like one can choose to believe anything, they can choose NOT to believe it - do you remember that one funny-looking guy from where was it - Pakistan? I don't doubt what happened to the Jews really took place in history, but I think it is a perfect example of how the planet seems to react poorly to them and their ideals. And you're leaching it for the rhetorical effect like some kind of politician. You're more interested in using it as leverage to attack their cultural beliefs. Oh, it was awful, the worst human-caused tragedy; but I won't piss on those people's graves and say it was just a big cosmic accident. Hey Cycel, they were just a bunch of flukes of the universe, right? That's precisely what the true naturalist would say of them, and it is exactly what Hitler thought of them (obviously). You really ought to start looking into the depths of the mind that carried out the whole thing: Hitler didn't believe the Jews were God's Creation, that they were to be honored. He directly disregarded the Bible, so don't say He did it for God's sake. See, I think, Cycel, Hitler woke up one morning, and thought of the world exactly like you did. He was going to die and fade away, and he imagined not even being able to leave a legacy on this planet. That drove him crazy, and with his malignant narcicism, he was only bound to start thinking about how to change that. Then in all of his despair, he came to a terrible conclusion: he had to take drastic measures to ensure that something of him survived, what little he could preserve. Good deeds require heart-felt conviction, and can only be recognized when performed by the rich. Aggressive actions always get into the books. Being a survivor of the first world war, he saw how fragile life was, and how the world challenged his livelihood. He was no stranger to violence. That only fueled his desperation. He also had an engrained sense of nationalism, and saw that mastery of his own culture was a strong vehicle for his agenda. At first, it took little to get attention. Radicals need only speak to be heard; why do you think the title god is not great catches or eyes? Or albums such as Issues are so lucritive? He preyed on all of the groupies, the homeless men at labor camps, and the disenfranchised soldiers. People who were as caught in hopelessness as he was. It went from there. He was one of those commanding personalities that post-modern rockers like to sing about - Power Trip comes to mind - and he got what he wanted from the downtrodden public. They were eager for a savior, and as symbolic of the delivering rebel as any other figure in history, he ordered a march on the throne. Almost like a work of philosophical fiction, he got exactly what he wanted in life. Looking back, it's too bad he wasn't another angry failure of an outsider. Anyone he blamed for the turmoil around him, anyone he percieved as being a threat to fulfilling his dying wish, he publicly condemned. The rest is history. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt here: there is no God, and what Hitler did was just an the work of a psychotic mind whom had no control and was controlled by no one. It was so inescapable, it must have been natural: the way it was supposed to be. So why, Cycel, are you and I bothered? We should be like sheep, watching everything happen, but only caring about breeding and eating. And yet, we aren't. Evidence of free will, or personal interpretation. Just as you and I and most of the other people here are two sides of a coin, so were they.

I have heard this claim before. I think, however, that all your evidence comes from the Bible. The Bible, you think, is the inerrant word of God. Upon this assumption you base all your claims of proof, but the claim of inerrancy is strictly a matter of faith, is it not? So the proofs are also a matter of faith. The evidence of this is that the only people who accept the claims of inerrancy are believing Christians. The argument is circular. The way I see it. Well, just excluding every Christian's personal testimony.

Stacey, what about the thousands who commit suicide every year? Would you not say they have been handed more than they can bare? We have a fellow here in Ontario named Paul Bernardo who is now behind bars, but when he was loose he was responsible for untold numbers of sexual attacks and murders including that of teenage girls lured by his wife for use as sex slaves. Over a period of weeks they were abused, tortured and murdered (cut into pieces I believe), all filmed on video for his later viewing pleasure. You don't think those girls were tortured beyond endurance? You don't think that the millions of Jews who died at the hands of their Nazi captors were handed more than they could bare? On one of the bunks in the Auschwitz concentration camp are carved the words, 'If there is a God he needs to beg me to forgive him.' Where does the love of God go? Your statements make no sense to me. God is doing us a favour by allowing monsters to abuse and torture innocent victims? The more a person is tortured, the more pain they experience, somehow teaches them more about God's mercy? I don't follow. It is because of acts like these that the problem of evil is for many people an obstacle to belief in God. Ahem. It's an obstacle because it's an emotional difficulty, not a logical one. As for those people you speak of: I won't lie, that's awful and it's not easy for me to explain it away. But God gave them their opportunities in life, and they made their choices. We all have our time. Each of them had what taste of life they would, and they met the challenges they had to face. Some of them may have been greeting death with open arms when their time came; in that sense, God gave them what they needed to get through to that last moment, and was still merciful. Remember, Hell is supposed to be a lot worse than anything that can be experienced on Earth. Death is not the most terrible experience out there. Never forget the people who went through Auschwitz and came out still firmly convinced of God's benevolence. He saves as many as He takes away, otherwise there would be none of us left to argue. You also mentioned suicide, and that is a sticky issue. Maybe it will get more attention later. But really, it's not God giving people too much; it's people deciding they don't want to bother.

No. And who's business is it to go running around telling them what their reasons are based upon relative statistics?

Hi Angelique, Nice to chat with you. The argument from evil (and pain and suffering of the innocent is evil) is a long standing argument for atheism. Three hundred years ago, maybe. Then, once upon a time came the three theodicies. I'm surprised atheists have never quite gotten past this one.

Sounds almost like eugenetics, almost... I will say that I know a lot of people who lost their virginity at church functions. Lots of guys do go to look for women. But most of them aren't serious about Christ in the first place, so its not really very surprising.

Faithful people do have evidence, it is simply disregarded by the intelligensia, if that word deserves any of its connotations these days.

I also think this, as well.

I disagree... We Pastafarians have the honor of being able to claim that we have never started a holy war. If you look at the ranks of any hate group, you'll see that the christians far outnumber any Pastafarians. Pastafarians appear to win hands-down. That's because Pastafarians are all hypothetical.

Very true, despite what religions get the PR agents these days. Most of the other religious adherents I know are probably off looking for a revelation in a blunt of THC as we speak.