whirlwind

Welcome to Worthy and thank you for your reply. The scripture you quoted from 1 Thessalonians is what some take the rapture idea from. However, the subject of the chapter is about where the dead are, not that Christ is coming to take anyone away. The word "air," as in "will meet you in the air," isn't the atmosphere but is instead "breath," as in breath of life - your spirit. We will all meet Him in our spirit bodies. Also, "clouds," is just an expression Paul used for crowds of people. He also used that expression in: Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight..... So, cloud would be as in a cloud of locust, etc. So...that scripture could be read as, Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the crowds to meet the Lord in our spirit bodies... That is difficult for those that have been taught rapture to believe but Paul further addresses it in his very next letter to the same people.... 11 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethern, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, 2.That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3.Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, He tells those that didn't understand his first letter that Christ will NOT return until after the apostasy. Those living at that time will go through the tribulation of Satan....the son of perdition. I agree with you in that people are falling away from sound doctrine but there will be signs of when Christ will arrive. We don't know the day or hour but we should know the season. ...........Whirlwind

Because he was not only called....but chosen! Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen." If chosen by God Himself, as the prophets were, would Matthew have been able to resist? I don't know if that is the answer but it is one to consider. You have my attention too. .......Whirlwind

Thank you for your reply Kari 19. I agree with you in that "God will not punish His children along with unbelievers." As the scriptures you wrote tell us.....God has not destined us for wrath. His wrath is reserved for those that take the mark of the beast: Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10.The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: His wrath is NOT for His children that did not fall for Satan's deceit. Taking "his mark" simply means to fall for his deception. Paul tells us that: 1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. From that scripture I believe then that the examples of end times were given to us when Daniel wasn't harmed in the lion's den, when Noah went through the flood, when the 3 Hebrew children were thrown in the fiery furnace but were not harmed.....they went through the wrath but were not harmed. We are His children, He loves us so why would He harm us? He wouldn't. I do believe that the time of the wrath, when Christ comes at His 2nd Advent, will be a time of great turmoil but I don't believe it will last long at all (Maybe 15 minutes). Remember, He Himself will fight the battle of Armageddon and the battle of Hamangog. As long as we do not fall for Satan's deceit we are standing on the Rock and will pass through that time. ........Whirlwind

there is no question that there will be a ''rapture'' or catching away of the saints the problem is that people have distorted the truth to make other hope when they can not confirm there word ezekiel 13:6 there will be a rapture but not b4 the tribulation it will be at the post trib 2nd coming matt 24:29-31,mark 13:24-27 luke 17:26-30, 1st cor 15:20-23,1st cor 15:51-53 1st thess 3:13, 1st thess 4:15-17,2nd thess 1:6-10 2nd thess 2:1-3 and rev 20:4-6 I find I very much agree with Onwingsaseagles. Scripture tells us that His 2nd Advent is when all of this happens.....if someone wishes to call it a rapture then that is fine but we must know that it does not happen until AFTER the tribulation of Satan. Satan's tribulation is what Christ refers to as: Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be The tribulation of that time is deception, not physical torture. Satan comes to earth pretending to be Christ and he must maintain that facade to trick Christians....and Christians are those he is coming after. Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. He comes to make a spiritual war with Christians....we are the ones that have the testimony of Jesus Christ! We must know who he is that is masquerading as Christ and wait for the True Saviour. Then, we will be the spiritual virgins He comes for and not have fallen into idolatry by worshipping Satan, even if it is unknowingly. When someone considers rapture please read the following scripture: Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; 'Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. How does He do that? How does He "tear them from your arms?" By writing a letter to us that explains what He expects of us in the end of days.....and that is not to "fly away." ........Whirlwind

I reckon He is! ........Whirlwind

I hoped that someone else responded before I did but I'll go ahead anyway. To me this subject has a connection to your other post about Haggai. There it is about the unclean contaminting the clean instead of the other way around. Here He is speaking about false shepherds, false preachers.....they contaminate many. I believe that the "he goats" (34:17) are those in charge. The politicians and leaders. They are judged right after those first judged...the preachers. He tells us that all they leave the flock (us) is muddy water and trampled pastures. And then they want us to be happy with it! In other words, they rip off all that they can with illegal means and high taxation. But, God tells them that "As for My flock.....I will judge between the fat catle and between the lean cattle. He will judge between them and the ones they ripped off. I don't believe that judgment is far away. ...........Whirlwind

Yes it is and I believe should be taught as such. You can love your enemies, or love those that don't follow God by teaching them truth but that doesn't mean become part of that group. Case in point are the colleges of today. They are so filled with liberal teaching that a young person is easily led away from God's truth and into unbelief. The problem is they must attend classes. Someone I study with said that Satan has 4 "hidden dynasties" that he works with to corrupt us. They are politics, finance, religion and education. They are really coming to the forefront now and exerting their power, especially on our young people. So...you are right when you say that the unclean can defile the clean instead of the other way around. I guess the trick is to recognize it for what it is, change what we can and stay away from the rest....all the while asking for His protection! I believe that is what He meant when He said: Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kngdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: We must pluck out the offending member (of our group, our church, etc.) and not allow it to contaminate the others. You can still love them and instruct them and once they have repented I believe they should be part of the whole again. It would be as if a family member was involved in drugs. To me it would be wrong to allow that person to remain in your home and perhaps influence younger members. You wouldn't stop loving them but you could not allow their behavior to hurt others. Anyway, that is how I feel about it........Thank you for the interesting question. (I also like your next one on Ez.34. I don't want to monopolize your post and hope you won't mind my responding to it) .........Whirlwind

My understanding of those verses is that God is speaking of building the temple but it also applies to us in the end times: Haggai 2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of hosts. So...we know He is speaking of the end of days, when the great shaking will occur. Only then will there be true peace. In that day, "If one that is unclean by a dead body touch any of these, shall it be unclean?" meaning...."So is this nation before Me...and so is every work of their hands." To me He is saying that if a house is full of spiritually dead people...do not touch them! Is our nation full of the spiritually dead, are our churches full of the spiritually dead? God continues by telling us that: 2:17 I smote you with blasting and with mildew and with hail in all the labours of your hands; yet ye turned not to Me, saith the Lord Some ask for blessings from Him but are spiritually dead. He wants us to repent and love Him. .........Whirlwind

Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? 51.Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay: but rather division: Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse; and He That sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. There is a spiritual battle going on and has been from the beginning of time. Occasionally that spiritual battle ignites to a full blown fire....that is what we now have! It was not of our making but my understanding of the Word tells us to meet that battle head on. God is a God of love but He is NOT a powder puff. He has given us rules to live this earthly life by and we should not allow those that do not live by those rules to stop us from doing so.....our enemy wants to do that. When that happened they became our enemy. Jesus tells us to "love your enemies" but He also tells us: Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, 'The Lord said unto my Lord, 'Sit Thou on My right hand, 43.Till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool." So...to me, that means love your enemies if at all possible and at times you must love them enough to show them the right way and that may take a big stick! We are the ones to make "thine enemies thy footstool." In answer to your question.....I have every confidence that He would approve of our wonderful soldiers and bless our men and woman as they fight for our country. Every night I ask Him for that blessing and ask that the conflict can end soon and they return home. I ask for it but truly can't see an end anytime in the near future. In my heart I believe it will last until the end of days. ........Whirlwind

I have been reading all the different interpretations of the time of the tribulation with interest. It is amazing how Christians can read one Book and come up with such different ideas. It must be part of God's plan. Allow me to add another consideration in this mix: Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. He is teaching about the end of days, the tribulation of Satan and tells us that He will shorten the days. What are the days shortened to? Revelation 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months; and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. Something to consider .........Whirlwind

Yes....the whole world has gone insane! Do you remember the movie from several years ago. I believe it was called Mosquito Coast with Harrison Ford? He took his entire family into an isolated area to get away from all the insanity. His story didn't turn out well but there are times I would love to do it myself....just wrap my family up and keep everything else away. But, we are part of the world and must try to make it better however there are increasing times when it is difficult to even turn the news on. Btw - I love Kari 19's comment about the what that disgusting poster and a Dodo bird have in common .........Whirlwind

'Shlomo' I'm "from the camp" of those that believe the 10 northern tribes or, house of Israel, are not Jews. You've raised an interesting question and there isn't much I can add to it. Someone I study with lightly touched on the subject once and said that Dan and Ephraim are left out because of idolatry but they are again listed during the millennium (Ez.48). I also am curious to hear what people say in answer to your question. ...........Whirlwind

The 12 Disciples and the 12 Patriarchs of the 12 tribes. Or, maybe the Prophets and Moses, Enoch, etc. The possibilities are there but the idea of it being or representing the church doesn't make a great deal of sense, at least to me. As far as believing Christ can return at any moment, I think all of us hope and prepare for that. However, that doesn't mean He will rapture anyone. Also, there are certain things that must happen, according to Biblical prophecy....such as the two witnesses. But, who knows, they could already be here And too, consider this. When Christ arrives, at His 2nd. Advent, all will be changed: 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52.In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. If we are ALL changed does that mean ALL (the good, bad and ugly) or ALL that believe in Him? I personally believe it means everyone. If it is everyone then how much of the wrath will some experience? Will we be changed at the instant of His arrival, as it sounds, or after the wrath? Even if it is after the wrath we must remember that He isn't angry with us....His wrath is reserved for those that took the mark of the beast. Lots to consider... ...........Whirlwind

I did not mean to imply that the Torah was a rip off of Gilgamesh, I only meant to correct what was earlier implied...which was that the Epic of Gilgamesh was somehow a twisted version of God's Word. They are two completely seperate documents (speaking of Gilgamesh and the Torah) in themselves, granted the Epic of Gilgamesh is much much older. Thank you for the clarification. Most do assume that the Bible was taken from it, instead of the other way around. There is an interesting book, "Sargon the Magnificent." In it the author puts forth the possibility of that first "Sargon" actually being Cain. If true, that would account for the similarities in the Genesis narrative. ...........Whirlwind

You are correct, The Epic of Gilgamesh was written far before the bible...something like 2500 years before. How then is it a distorted version of God's word when "God's Word" hadn't even been compiled yet? Because God's Word had not yet been compiled doesn't mean it had not yet happened. It was history when it was compiled and written. So...because Gilgamesh was written before the Torah was written doesn't make the Torah a copy of Gilgamesh. .....Whirlwind

Gilgamesh is said to have been "written" before the Bible....that doesn't mean the events "happened" before the true events, as given to us in Genesis. The true events weren't written until the time of Moses, as far as I know. So....consider the twisted story that Gilgamesh tells. It is just a contorted view of the truth of God's Word that Satan uses to keep souls from God. All of the mythological gods are for that purpose - to keep souls from God. My personal view is that these stories are from Cain. When he was thrown out of Eden he "builded cities" and that city was in all probability Babylon, which means confusion.....and look at the confusion of God's truth that has come from it. He knew the true story but was led by Satan and developed a twisted version and that same version is keeping others from the Father even today. On another site I am astounded by young people that truly seem to believe those ridiculous stories and don't believe the Bible because of them. Satan's plan is working very well! So....that's my story and I'm sticking to it (until someone with true knowledge and not just speculation comes along) .........Whirlwind

If they are not preaching to the rest of the people on the earth during the time of the Tribulation, who is? There are only two different sets of earthly witnesses during the Tribulation. The two witnesses, and the 144,000 witnesses. There are two...well, actually, there is one tribulation (that of Satan) and then there will be the wrath of God. Satan's time of tribulation will be a big love fest....he will be pretending to be Christ so he will come in peacefully and prosperously and trick you with lies and deceit. As Christ said: Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the begining of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22.And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. That is when Satan will be here. Christ doesn't come until after him and we must wait for the true Christ or we will have taken the "mark of the beast." The 144,000 are not the ones that will be preaching. Those are they that must be sealed with God's truth before the end can come: Rev.7:3 saying "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." 4.And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. They have been worshipping the anti-christ/Satan, believing he was Christ until they heard the testimony of the 7,000 elect. (Matt.24:22) They are the reason the time was shortened. Some of those elect will be taken before Satan for a testimony and the Holy Spirit will speak through them. What is said will bring many to Christ as others will realize they have been mistakenly following Satan. Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute y ou, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 13.And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14.Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15.For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Also see Mark 13:9-11 and Matthew 24:9-14 Those 7,000 elect are the ones that will testify. The Holy Spirit will speak through them and many will be sealed with God's truth. ............Whirlwind

Edom is Russia. It began in Genesis: Genesis 25:20 And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the syrian of Padan-aram, the sister to Laban the Syrian. 21.And Isaac intreated the Lord for his wife, because she was barren: and the Lord was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceied. 22.And the children struggled together within her; and she said, "If it be so, why am I thus?" And she went to enquire of the Lord. 23.And the Lord said unto her, "Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger." 24.And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. 25.And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau. 30.And Esau said to Jacob, "Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint:" therefore was his name called Edom. Edom means red or ruddy - the red nation. Esau sold his birthright to Jacob and: Romans 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated." The two nations in Rebekah's womb was Russia and America / Esau and Jacob. Isaiah 34:6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. Idumea is Esau/Red - communism, socialism. Bozrah is a fortress of Edom, which is Russia. I hope that helps a little.......I have to get ready for work now. ...........Whirlwind

'Shlomo' This has been an interesting discussion all of you (or as we say it down here in the deep south - ya'll) have been having. Allow me to add another element to the mix. I believe the word tells us that we will be here during all of it....including the time of His wrath. But, as He tells us: Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10.The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence fo the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: His wrath is for those that follow Satan....not His children, those that wait for the true Christ. We also know that Satan can't harm us during his tribulation if we don't believe his lies: Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. Scripture points to the fact that we will all be here and will be tested: Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is My People:' and they shall say, 'The Lord is my God.' So....I believe we will be here but won't be harmed. He will protect as as He did Daniel in the lion's den, the 3 Hebrew children in the fire, etc.....if we don't fall for the deceit of Satan. We have to know that he comes first pretending to be Christ. .........Whirlwind

Her answer terrified me too....possibly because some of it is true. "Half angel. Half devil. All human." Without Christ we can be that. ........Whirlwind

'Karen C.' Wow....ask and ye shall receive. I believe the verses you quoted nail who the demons are. Thank you very much. Blessings to you too.....Whirlwind

What is your opinion? As they are "awaiting judgment" do you believe they could be souls of terrible humans or the fallen angels? Is there another possibility? It is an interesting topic! .......Whirlwind

I believe you are correct but do you have scriptural backup? I agree with one of the posters on this thread that speaks about pre-Adamic humans but my understanding of them is just that they are the different races....not ones that demons came from. After all, when God created them He said, "it was very good." I also agree with you in that the fallen angels mated with daughters of Adam in order to contaminate the blood line that would lead to Christ. So far, the demons being the souls of the nephilim is the best answer. I also wonder if they could possibly be the souls of truly horrid humans (Hitler, Stalin, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc.). My understanding is they couldn't be as all souls aren't yet judged....but it's something to consider. .........Whirlwind

No it doesn't. When Christ was teaching in the story of the camel and eye of the needle He meant being rich with ill gotten gains. At that time the cities were walled and the main gates closed at night. A small gate was left open and guarded but was only large enough for a man to pass through. His camel would have to be unloaded in order to pass through.....We must unload our ill-gotten gains before going in. Money meant more to the man in this story than God did. God blesses us, some with riches and some with other things but all are blessings. None of those things should mean more to us than God Himself. So....my answer would be no, these are not instructions for us to sell everything we own and follow Him. ...........Whirlwind