seekeratthesea

Guessing........ Christ took on the sin of the world when he was on that cross. We know that sin creates a separation from God, but we also know that Christ being God AND the Son of God at the same time would seem to be something of an exception to every rule. So did our sin actually create a temporary separation from God, or the illusion of one. Christ shouldn't be susceptible to such an illusion but does the fact that he suddenly takes on our sinful nature change that susceptibility? Did our sin make him less Christlike than He was before he took the sin onto himself? It seems kind of self-evident that after taking on our sin, He couldn't have still been sinless. Don't anyone take this the wrong way. I don't question the deity of Christ in anyway. It's just that that particular statement always puzzled me in the same way. It sounds confused, lost and desperate. I believe that Christ denigrated and reduced Himself not once but twice. Once when he took on fleshy form as a man and again 33 years later when he allowed the sin of others to be dumped onto him at the cross.

A while back I was given, from a group of Christian intercessors, a written compilation of predictions concerning several events that could be happening in America very soon. In other words many prayed and came to an agreement on what they were seeing coming to pass soon. I now think their predictions will happen probably in the next few weeks or couple of months. What I have put in regular print I expect to happen for sure. The rest, in parenthesis, will probably happen too but I am less sure of it . 1) President Barack Obama will resign his office due to his birth status and outside pressure. 2) V P Joe Biden will be indicated by Obama as that outside pressure, and as having threatened the Obama family. 3) The US Supreme Court will decide that since Obama admits that he was not qualified to run, the 2008 election winner is now John McCain. 4) There will be some short lived civil unrest about this decision, even though Obama's nominee to the court will vote with the majority. 5) Sarah Palin will be sworn into office as VP,( but only as a ceremonial gesture. She will immediately resign and return to what she has been doing with her political action commitee.) 6)( A new VP will be installed .........one of the reasons Sarah will step aside is for this man to help heal the nation.....he is a black man.....I am about 95% sure it will be J.C.Watts). 7)Obama will co-operate with federal authorities in their investigations into corruption. Please watch the news and see if these intercessors are right. How in the world did they come up with this as a scenario?!

interesting; apparently you live in a different world then I do; just recently I was working a security job, and on this job, we set at a desk most of the time, and I and another security officer would talk about things, any thing we wanted. So one day we got to talking about the Bible, within a week my boss called me in the office and told me; " WE DON't Want any Christians around here!!". They actually got so upset they brought in a guy who was a martial art expert, and he began threatening me, So in order to avoid a major problem I left that job. I then went to put my application in at a local hospital for a transporter position. The lady asked me why I left the security job beings I've been in that line of work for 15 years. I was honest; and told her that my boss found out I was a Christians; and told me I wasn't welcome; and that they brought a guy in who threatened me. She looked at me and said; " Looks like your going to have to learn to get along with people"; Needless to say I didn't get the job. Whether or not we as Christians like the ideal or not, God is going to try us by fire; and America, now that we have turned away from God, is ready for true christians to be tested. So if you believe that this is a truly a Christian nation; go to your work, and try witnessing to your co-workers, and too your boss, and I don't mean just walking the walk, I mean verbally. Then come back in a couple of months and tell me that this is truly a Christian nation. I HAVE done that and it's not a problem. Having said that, I COULD do it in a way that makes it a problem. My girlfriend does it more than I do at her supermarket job. I don't know about my son but they just rearranged his work schedule to accommodate his baptism. They were very glad that he was getting baptized.........this is a Christian nation, and if you think not, you should try living in Iran where they lock Christians into little metal boxes, drill a few air holes in the top of the box for air, and then set the box in the midst of the desert in 120 degree temperatures....this is genuine persecution.

America is a haven for Christians, which makes the title of that post very misleading. That story doesn't mean that Christians are persecuted in America. This is a nation where Christian society rules as strongly as they choose over those who make our laws. This is a nation where almost all of the population call themselves Christians. This is a nation where churches are rightfully given tax free status. Failure to be thankful to God for the overwhelming gifts showered on our nation may well lead to the loss of those gifts.

This is nothing more than attention seeking behavior. Atheists and anti God types throwing fits in ways they know will garner the most Christian attention. In the end they will do themselves and their "cause" more harm than good in the eyes of the American people.

No but it doesn't mean that they aren't Christian either. It doesn't even mean they necessarily believe in astrology. It's an old phrase that can be tied to astrology, but it's often loosely used to mean "it's gonna happen"

Dear friend, God does not deal in esoterics. Babylon is representative of the Catholic Church, it's false doctrines and dominating theologies. This is not a rant. This is the actual meaning of Babylon in the Bible, (Revelation). In the broader and more spiritual sense, Babylon means all of those in the Christian church who seek to be worshipped above God and seek to be glorified before God and who seek to dominate in the domain of the hearts and minds of God's children. This is the spiritual sense. There is no allegory in the Bible. We create the allegories. The Word is pure truth. Plain and simple. God cannot lie. And if you believe that the Bible is the Word of God you must believe also that God will not say anything that does not have absolute, spiritual and eternal meaning from His perspective FIRST. These falls and rises of the kingdoms of men, their religions and so on are all known to God before us. Our knowledge is after the fact. But God deals in eternals. His perspective is infinite. Of all of the things that exist in this world ONLY the human soul is the infinite of potential. Therefore all of the Word of God is meant to address our eternal nature. Our eternal souls. The kingdoms and religions of men are not eternal. God's word is eternal, and thus has within it all of the Divine Truth of all matters pertaining to the eternal souls of His beloved Children. US. Recognize that the "better things" of which you speak are not the things of this world, but the things of the kingdom of God, which is eternal. These things are love, mercy, kindness, selflessness, and all of the spiritual and eternal values that are of God, as taught by Christ Jesus. These were the spirit of the Gospel. Not the death and resurrection of the Lord. For while the resurrection of Christ is for the benefit of the human soul. It is the human soul that must confess the Lord willingly in order to reap the reward. The confession is not enough. Your soul must become the "better thing" not by means of the confession only, as some suppose, but by the doing of "better things in willing obedience to the One whom you confess. In this way do you marry your will to your words as Jesus did before the Father. Thus you become whole and ripened fruit in the garden of God. Jesus taught that falls and rises of kingdoms would come. "There will be wars and rumors of wars..." He spoke of these as being merely signs pointing to the birth of the Kingdom of God, which,"is within you". Therefore, look within yourself for these falls and rises for these are they which usher the Kingdom of God within your eternal soul. It was to these inner falls and rises that Jesus was referring as to the spiritual sense, the eternal sense. Hear the voice. Look within, not without. i'll state here for arguement that the below implicates the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THE RELIGIONS BASED UPON THIER FAITH. Revelation 17:3-4 (New International Version) 3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. is there a religion that covers the globe whos offical colors are PURPLE AND SCARLET? LOOK IN THE CORNER OF THE CHRISTAIN FLAG. WHAT COLOR IS THE FIELD? WHAT COLOR IS THE CROSS? and does the head of the roman church adorn himself with gold precious stones and pearls? Revelation 17:5 (New International Version) 5This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. it's the christain thought that this refers to the false religion that consumes the earth in the end of times. lets take a closer look at this " mystery " first lets look at the word {MYSTERY} 1mys

The Thunder... Catholicism is far too small to fit the bill. Ever since the Tower of Babel, people have worshiped a Goddess (mother) and her son, a proverbial savior (son) that is contrary to the actual Son. This Whore is not a single religion of today, my friend. It's all religions contrary to Christianity. It's the worship of creation over creator. It's rejection of the Son. But the Whore will only last so long- after the entire world is united under a single religion/government, the antichrist will do away with the Whore and redirect the worship and power to himself. Catholics have taken waaaaaay too much credit. The Bible can almost be called The Tale of Two Cities. Jerusalem, the city of peace/god... and Babylon, the city of man/sin. You can see all throughout the Bible that these two cities are in direct opposition with eachother... God the leader of one, Satan the other. There's a war on, my friend... and it isn't against Catholics. I am with you poke. Besides Christianity the other two most prominant religions in the middle east are Islam and Judism. And both of these religions are still waiting for their Messiah to return. Both are waiting for a Jewish Messiah to return and conqure and spread their beliefs world wide. There are more then one billion Muslims in this world and they will not be giving in to any Messiah who doesn't fit what the Quran says about him and guess what? Niether the Pope or the Catholic church fit in with what the Quran says about their Jewish Messiah. The Catholic church is considered to be the enemy of Islam and Islam is growing faster then any other religion in the world. Those who think the Catholic church is going to be the one world religion need to open their eyes and minds to what is reallity in this world because like you said it is much bigger then the Catholic church is and there is way to much hate and disdain for the Catholic church by other religions like the Hindu's and Buddists. Wake up and smell the coffee people because no one will ever convince 1 billion Muslims into praying to a woman named Mary instead of or inplace of Allah. One of the fastest growing Christian communities are in muslim countries.It may show on your id the word muslim but not in practice. As far as Babylon falling means the failure of humans when God is not included.Each one of us is a babylon when we have a life without God and Jesus. Blessings Amen! Turning Scripture onto oneself instead of using it against others..........way to go

Dear friend, God does not deal in esoterics. Babylon is representative of the Catholic Church, it's false doctrines and dominating theologies. This is not a rant. This is the actual meaning of Babylon in the Bible, (Revelation). In the broader and more spiritual sense, Babylon means all of those in the Christian church who seek to be worshipped above God and seek to be glorified before God and who seek to dominate in the domain of the hearts and minds of God's children. This is the spiritual sense. There is no allegory in the Bible. We create the allegories. The Word is pure truth. Plain and simple. God cannot lie. And if you believe that the Bible is the Word of God you must believe also that God will not say anything that does not have absolute, spiritual and eternal meaning from His perspective FIRST. These falls and rises of the kingdoms of men, their religions and so on are all known to God before us. Our knowledge is after the fact. But God deals in eternals. His perspective is infinite. Of all of the things that exist in this world ONLY the human soul is the infinite of potential. Therefore all of the Word of God is meant to address our eternal nature. Our eternal souls. The kingdoms and religions of men are not eternal. God's word is eternal, and thus has within it all of the Divine Truth of all matters pertaining to the eternal souls of His beloved Children. US. Recognize that the "better things" of which you speak are not the things of this world, but the things of the kingdom of God, which is eternal. These things are love, mercy, kindness, selflessness, and all of the spiritual and eternal values that are of God, as taught by Christ Jesus. These were the spirit of the Gospel. Not the death and resurrection of the Lord. For while the resurrection of Christ is for the benefit of the human soul. It is the human soul that must confess the Lord willingly in order to reap the reward. The confession is not enough. Your soul must become the "better thing" not by means of the confession only, as some suppose, but by the doing of "better things in willing obedience to the One whom you confess. In this way do you marry your will to your words as Jesus did before the Father. Thus you become whole and ripened fruit in the garden of God. Jesus taught that falls and rises of kingdoms would come. "There will be wars and rumors of wars..." He spoke of these as being merely signs pointing to the birth of the Kingdom of God, which,"is within you". Therefore, look within yourself for these falls and rises for these are they which usher the Kingdom of God within your eternal soul. It was to these inner falls and rises that Jesus was referring as to the spiritual sense, the eternal sense. Hear the voice. Look within, not without. Prove it. Show us where in the bible does it say "Babylon is the Catholic church". If it is not written in the bible it is a lie. It's not in the Bible. If you have a chip on your shoulder you can "read it into" Scripture and when you find someone that disagrees with you, you can then insist that you're interpretation is guided by the Holy Spirit, auto-implying that whoever disagrees with you has no relationship with the Holy Spirit, and thereby bring the person Christianity into question. In my experience this is the where the anti catholic arguments usually devolve to very quickly. None of us has a lock on these things.

The problem is that anti catholics will automatically blame the Religious Ecumenical movement on the catholic church.

Dear friend, God does not deal in esoterics. Babylon is representative of the Catholic Church, it's false doctrines and dominating theologies. This is not a rant. This is the actual meaning of Babylon in the Bible, (Revelation). In the broader and more spiritual sense, Babylon means all of those in the Christian church who seek to be worshipped above God and seek to be glorified before God and who seek to dominate in the domain of the hearts and minds of God's children. This is the spiritual sense. There is no allegory in the Bible. We create the allegories. The Word is pure truth. Plain and simple. God cannot lie. And if you believe that the Bible is the Word of God you must believe also that God will not say anything that does not have absolute, spiritual and eternal meaning from His perspective FIRST. These falls and rises of the kingdoms of men, their religions and so on are all known to God before us. Our knowledge is after the fact. But God deals in eternals. His perspective is infinite. Of all of the things that exist in this world ONLY the human soul is the infinite of potential. Therefore all of the Word of God is meant to address our eternal nature. Our eternal souls. The kingdoms and religions of men are not eternal. God's word is eternal, and thus has within it all of the Divine Truth of all matters pertaining to the eternal souls of His beloved Children. US. Recognize that the "better things" of which you speak are not the things of this world, but the things of the kingdom of God, which is eternal. These things are love, mercy, kindness, selflessness, and all of the spiritual and eternal values that are of God, as taught by Christ Jesus. These were the spirit of the Gospel. Not the death and resurrection of the Lord. For while the resurrection of Christ is for the benefit of the human soul. It is the human soul that must confess the Lord willingly in order to reap the reward. The confession is not enough. Your soul must become the "better thing" not by means of the confession only, as some suppose, but by the doing of "better things in willing obedience to the One whom you confess. In this way do you marry your will to your words as Jesus did before the Father. Thus you become whole and ripened fruit in the garden of God. Jesus taught that falls and rises of kingdoms would come. "There will be wars and rumors of wars..." He spoke of these as being merely signs pointing to the birth of the Kingdom of God, which,"is within you". Therefore, look within yourself for these falls and rises for these are they which usher the Kingdom of God within your eternal soul. It was to these inner falls and rises that Jesus was referring as to the spiritual sense, the eternal sense. Hear the voice. Look within, not without. i'll state here for arguement that the below implicates the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THE RELIGIONS BASED UPON THIER FAITH. Revelation 17:3-4 (New International Version) 3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. is there a religion that covers the globe whos offical colors are PURPLE AND SCARLET? LOOK IN THE CORNER OF THE CHRISTAIN FLAG. WHAT COLOR IS THE FIELD? WHAT COLOR IS THE CROSS? and does the head of the roman church adorn himself with gold precious stones and pearls? Revelation 17:5 (New International Version) 5This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. it's the christain thought that this refers to the false religion that consumes the earth in the end of times. lets take a closer look at this " mystery " first lets look at the word {MYSTERY} 1mys

Agreed! I would go so far as to say that all things of the carnal world serve to make up the Babylonian whore. Man's inept attempts at worshiping a God so infinitely great that we can't TRULY understand Him or worship him in the way He deserves, might be considered part of the curse of the fallen world and thereby, maybe the whore could encompass churches but that would apply to all churches, not just the catholic church. Anti catholic theology does not work that way though, being insistent that the catholic church be the ultimate evil for all of human history. It's would also be hard for a Christian to accept that they, and their church along with all our inept attempts at worship might all be part of the curse of the fallen world and thereby part of the Babylonian whore BUT I think it safe to say that with the return of Christ, all churches will see their ineptitude.

I don't believe there are any which speak directly of the one world govt that you're thinking of. There are some verses which speak of Christ's government. The evil anti christ govt is much alluded too but not mentioned specifically, it takes a certain interpretation to get from the Scriptures to the one world govt ruled by the antichrist.

Has Babylon been falling for thousands of years in many different ways, all of which collectively take place in mere instant from the timeless, ageless perspective of God? When anything of the fallen, carnal world falls, is that not an example of Babylon falling? So when Rome fell, it was also Babylon falling? When the American Revolution occurred, was it a case of Babylon falling in Old Europe to be replaced with a new system that was a bit more in line with the will of God, still imperfect but at least less imperfect? When slavery was abolished in the US was it a case of Babylon falling? When the markets crashed in 1929, was it a case of Babylon falling? The fall of communism? The French Revolution? All these things fall to be replaced with things better, but which will also fall in time to be replaced with things yet better than before, until eventually all falls with the great return of Jesus Christ. Or a better way to phrase it........aren't all these things the first crumblings of Babylon before the final triumphant fall?

Denominations are an extension of disagreements that have been going on since the earliest days of Christianity. I think they occur when people get caught up in small things and end up missing the big picture, and risk becoming religious about their differences. I don't like denominationalism and I think it's right to think of it as a failing. But I also think it's possible to get religious about avoiding denominationalism too, even though we're correct in our negative perception of it. I'm ex catholic. I raised my son to be non denominational and he ended up becoming sooooooo non denominational that he truly doesn't recognize denominations in his own mind, whereas I still tend to make a habit of avoiding a church of catholic denomination, even though I still consider it to be a legitimate Christian Church. I would also hesitate a bit at going to a Protestant Church or Presbyterian Church specifically because of denominational distinctions. My son has taken it a step higher, seeking only Christian Churches, I am still wallowing a bit in being "NON" denominational. My son can be comfortable in a catholic church with his girlfriend or a non denom church with me, his dad. So who is more of a true non denom....my son who has blown off ALL denomination considerations, so that his only concern is that it be a genuine Church of Christ? Or me who might avoid certain legitimate Christian churches because of a small but ever remaining chip on my shoulder about denominationalism?

No........we don't need to live as if it is our last day on earth because for the overwhelming majority of us, that's not the case. We can walk as good Christians without believing such things. No one knows that it isn't the case that it is one's last day of life on earth. I didn't say they did. I said for the overwhelming majority of people, that's not the case. It's also true that you don't need to behave or "walk" as if it's your last day on earth in order to be saved or to be a good Christian. There is no reason for a person to "walk" as if it's their last day on earth. It's a good motivation to keep us on the narrow road! Safe to say there are MUCH better motivations than using false notions about end time scenarios to stay on the narrow road. People use end time scenarios to scare people into the Christian fold and then when the false scenario fails to materialize, those who were scared into Christianity get disillusioned and many times fall away, because Christianity has been discredited by those who claim to understand it's prophecies. It's also true that EVERYONE knows the end times crowd has been around forever and have always been discredited throughout all of history, and there is no reason to suddenly assume the current generation of end timers are any more credible than all the end timers that came before them. To expect people to ignore that fact isn't even reasonable.

I think that is a deflection. Man is hateful and cruel and he kills. War is everywhere and WAR is morbid! It's not wrong to notice it. You don't have to assign an agenda or a judgment of morbidity to those who see it. Jesus has told us to watch. I'm not talking about "seeing" it, I'm talking about ignoring the fact that it has actually been declining in recent decades. It is not really declining. Hatred and bloodshed is at our very doorstep. Every sin is in escalation. That is a sign. We are not ignoring anything as spiritual ostriches, burying our heads in the sand. Are you suggesting the world is a more peaceful place than before? No it REALLY is declining. You just have to be open to the idea and look at the real numbers. And hatred and bloodshed is not at my doorstep and I doubt it's at yours either; that's just drama speak. A person in Darfur could easily explain the difference between the reality of "Hatred and bloodshed is at our very doorstep" and the mere statement of it. Most of us never even have to REALLY experience "Hatred and bloodshed is at our very doorstep" and it's wrong and ungrateful to behave as if we do. And every sin is NOT necessarily an escalation of war or a sign of end times. If it were then the signs of the end times have been here ever since sin was revealed by the law. You're reaching way to hard here. War has been declining since WW II. Disease and starvation are declining. These are things that should be welcomed and it a morbid thing to deny a good reality in preference for a negative perception. That's exactly what satan would have us do. This generation is even more wicked than the last. They are even open about their sin as if it is all good! You cannot see that? Disease and starvation are not declining. There are more diseases than there were. There is nothing good about the reality that we live in a fallen world that is desperate for Jesus. We know that it is expected to worsen before He comes again. We are looking at the signs even now. It's almost as if this verse is revealing your mindset: 1 Thessalonians 5:3 When people are saying,

I think that is a deflection. Man is hateful and cruel and he kills. War is everywhere and WAR is morbid! It's not wrong to notice it. You don't have to assign an agenda or a judgment of morbidity to those who see it. Jesus has told us to watch. I'm not talking about "seeing" it, I'm talking about ignoring the fact that it has actually been declining in recent decades. It is not really declining. Hatred and bloodshed is at our very doorstep. Every sin is in escalation. That is a sign. We are not ignoring anything as spiritual ostriches, burying our heads in the sand. Are you suggesting the world is a more peaceful place than before? No it REALLY is declining. You just have to be open to the idea and look at the real numbers. And hatred and bloodshed is not at my doorstep and I doubt it's at yours either; that's just drama speak. A person in Darfur could easily explain the difference between the reality of "Hatred and bloodshed is at our very doorstep" and the mere statement of it. Most of us never even have to REALLY experience "Hatred and bloodshed is at our very doorstep" and it's wrong and ungrateful to behave as if we do. And every sin is NOT necessarily an escalation of war or a sign of end times. If it were then the signs of the end times have been here ever since sin was revealed by the law. You're reaching way to hard here. War has been declining since WW II. Disease and starvation are declining. These are things that should be welcomed and it a morbid thing to deny a good reality in preference for a negative perception. That's exactly what satan would have us do. Seeker, you are allowing yourself to be lulled into a false sense of security. You are allowing statistics gathered by worldly sources to determine for you what the reality of Scripture is. As believers we are called to live our lives with "eyes wide open" looking for the Lord and discerning the times. If we all lived our lives as if the Lord would never come then He will never come, because the Bride will not have made herself ready. Your concern is that Christians not live in fear of the times. The reality is that we should n't live in fear regardless of the times. The signs of the times should press us more into the Lord and keep us looking up. If we all thought everything was okay, that we have another 200 years ahead of us before the Lord comes, then we would not be gaining Him. We would wait until the last moments; the Bride of Christ would never reach full maturity in life. In Luke 17 the Lord taught that those in the days of Noah were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage until the last day. It was likewise with Lot, until he left the city. There are two similarities in the examples that the Lord gave. The first is the fact that all were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, until the last moment of judgment. That signifies to us the stupefying effect of the age ("you will not see it" vs. 22). Those in Noah's day did not listen to Noah's warning, and they even mocked God's way of salvation (Which was the ark). When the angels came to take Lot and his family it says that Lot "lingered." They had to remove Lot and his family from the city by force (Gen. 19:15-16) You remember that Lot was one of God's chosen people, a relative of Abraham. He moved to a place that became absolutely corrupted, even becoming a gatekeeper of Sodom; he became stupefied to the point of actually loving that city, so that he "lingered" in the face of God's judgment. Even Lot's wife serves to us as an example of the stupefying and attractive effect of the world. The second similarity between Noah and lot is that once both families left those places judgment came. Noah entered into the ark, and upon God's closing it, the flood waters came. Once Lot and his family left Sodom, judgment came. The day of the Lord is swift, and He is looking for Noahs and Lots. Read Luke 17 in this light. In the day of the Lord two will be in the bed and one will be taken, two will be grinding and one will be taken, two will be in the field and one will be taken. The ones that are taken in the day of the Lord are the ones who discern the age and know it for what it is. They are the ones looking up toward the day of the Lord. They are those who love His appearing (2 Tim. 4:8; Titus 2:12). You are absolutely fooling yourself, lulling yourself into a false sense of security, allowing yourself to be stupefied (To be placed in a stupor; a state of little or no sensibility) if you go on in your Christian life ignorant of the signs of His coming. It doesn't work to dismiss everything we don't want to hear/believe as "worldly sources" just to help us believe the ends of days is here. War is declining for the time being and there's no conspiracy of "worldly sources" to keep wars secret so as to trick us into believing they're declining when they aren't. There have been people throughout history who have just allowed themselves to become fixated on end times and end up seeing what they want to, in order to help themselves believe what they want to. It's an old trap. Prophecy is real but the trend by some to always see end times just around the corner has ALWAYS been proven wrong and will probably prove to be wrong again. The odds are that we are no more in the end times now than we were a thousand years ago.

I think that is a deflection. Man is hateful and cruel and he kills. War is everywhere and WAR is morbid! It's not wrong to notice it. You don't have to assign an agenda or a judgment of morbidity to those who see it. Jesus has told us to watch. I'm not talking about "seeing" it, I'm talking about ignoring the fact that it has actually been declining in recent decades. It is not really declining. Hatred and bloodshed is at our very doorstep. Every sin is in escalation. That is a sign. We are not ignoring anything as spiritual ostriches, burying our heads in the sand. Are you suggesting the world is a more peaceful place than before? No it REALLY is declining. You just have to be open to the idea and look at the real numbers. And hatred and bloodshed is not at my doorstep and I doubt it's at yours either; that's just drama speak. A person in Darfur could easily explain the difference between the reality of "Hatred and bloodshed is at our very doorstep" and the mere statement of it. Most of us never even have to REALLY experience "Hatred and bloodshed is at our very doorstep" and it's wrong and ungrateful to behave as if we do. And every sin is NOT necessarily an escalation of war or a sign of end times. If it were then the signs of the end times have been here ever since sin was revealed by the law. You're reaching way to hard here. War has been declining since WW II. Disease and starvation are declining. These are things that should be welcomed and it a morbid thing to deny a good reality in preference for a negative perception. That's exactly what satan would have us do.

No........we don't need to live as if it is our last day on earth because for the overwhelming majority of us, that's not the case. We can walk as good Christians without believing such things. No one knows that it isn't the case that it is one's last day of life on earth. I didn't say they did. I said for the overwhelming majority of people, that's not the case. It's also true that you don't need to behave or "walk" as if it's your last day on earth in order to be saved or to be a good Christian. There is no reason for a person to "walk" as if it's their last day on earth.

No........we don't need to live as if it is our last day on earth because for the overwhelming majority of us, that's not the case. We can walk as good Christians without believing such things.

I think that is a deflection. Man is hateful and cruel and he kills. War is everywhere and WAR is morbid! It's not wrong to notice it. You don't have to assign an agenda or a judgment of morbidity to those who see it. Jesus has told us to watch. I'm not talking about "seeing" it, I'm talking about ignoring the fact that it has actually been declining in recent decades.

And if they are, what is that to you and I? How does their being wrong effect our walk? I didn't say it effected OUR walk. Is your point that people can only talk about things that effect their OWN walk? I believe that too much unrealistic focus or obsession on end times that probably aren't here anyway distracts from a more normal and wholesome day to day Christian walk. I also believe this end of the world stuff has become nothing more than a cottage industry for certain authors to fatten up their bank accounts, and I know that some Christians wrongfully use prophecy and news headlines to try scaring people into Christianity.

Then you're wrong because you could even add more and in an historical sense, it would still be a decline, in size, scope and total death counts. War really HAS declined for now. That may change but to spend time seeking out wars or other bad news in order make people think we're in the end times is a pretty morbid thing to do. There was another guy trying to hustle me into accepting gang wars in Los Angeles as proof of greater number of wars......there quickly comes a point when it becomes obvious that people WANT there to be more war so they can be right about living in the end times. Why not count price wars between gas stations too?

Response by larry2 - Your oberservations of the end times is correct concerning wars decreasing in size and multitude. Back when in Mark 13:7 we read "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet." As we appproach the time of the end 1 Thessalonians 5:3 says; "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." It seems to me that due to the decrease in war, people will start thinking of peace and safety, though that will be without God and of their own effforts. Then sudden destruction comes upon them that culminates with the war of Armageddon. In Jesus' name - larry2 But nobody today is saying "peace and safety" either. They point is not that we will never reach the point where that prophecy is imminent, the point is only that for right now, we probably aren't there and that all the current day end of the worlders are likely wrong.