Neeva Candida

Are you suggesting that the existence of a condition described as Universalism is a satanic lie? Or, are you suggesting that the effects of this condition are a satanic lie? ~Neeva

I thought I was doing her a favor by explaining to her what heresyhunter meant by "universalism". I didn't think I was highjacking her thread and I certainly didn't think I was being rude. Didn't say you were being rude, just saying if the OP ask something we should "try" to abide by their wishes. Hey, have to be told myself upon occasion! No harm no foul! What is an OP? ~Neeva Opening Poster! Thank you. ~Neeva

I thought I was doing her a favor by explaining to her what heresyhunter meant by "universalism". I didn't think I was highjacking her thread and I certainly didn't think I was being rude. Didn't say you were being rude, just saying if the OP ask something we should "try" to abide by their wishes. Hey, have to be told myself upon occasion! No harm no foul! What is an OP? ~Neeva

Or NOT living in sin. ~Neeva

"However when I did some research on this verse I found that the word "opened" had been changed from the word "open". So when we look at this verse as saying "I looked and behold a door WAS OPENED" verses "I looked and behold a door WAS OPEN". We can see that changing the word "open" to the word "opened" can change how we perceive what the verse is actually telling us thereby changing what we understand and leading us to believe that which is not. The Geneva bible which was the first ever bible translated into English was translated by William Tyndale in 1526 almost 100 years before the King James version and uses the word"open" instead of the word "opened". Which means that if the door was already open when John looked up then those who use this verse to re-enforce the Pre-trib concept have not done their research and are deceived into believing that which is not and are teaching that which is wrong." I think this would make for an interesting discussion on it's own merits. However, it should probably be carried over to a new thread. ~Neeva

Hi jenwat, I am sorry that it has taken me so long to respond. I wanted to try and understand your beliefs a little better before attempting to comment any further. Boy, did that turn out to be an interesting exercise. After compiling a response that extended for more than three pages I stopped and reconsidered. That hardly seemed like the way to go. So, I decided to take a different approach. Instead of trying to persuade you one way or another I tell you what I learned. Your beliefs described thus far seem to fall into a system that is referred to as Conditional Immortality. It is similar to what Annihilationists believe in many ways except one significant one. Annihilationists believe that we are all born with an eternal soul and lose it if we are not saved. CIs believe that none of us are born with immortal souls and only receive one once we are saved. Of course like any belief there are many variations. So, I wouldn't expect your particular beliefs to hold entirely to one category or the other. Rather it only seems to me that you lean more toward the CIs. However, both groups do believe that even though the unsaved will experience some degree of punishment it will not be eternal. They both point to a handful of scriptures to support their beliefs and have developed theories to explain the more inconvenient verses of the Bible. Of course any belief can be accused of the same thing. It would be possible to start listing each verse used by these groups and creating what sounded like well-reasoned and though-out responses. In fact that is exactly what I had started to do when I began wondering what value that would really have. I decided it wouldn't be very profitable at all. I wish I could believe as you do. I have many people that are close to me that I fear are not saved and don't seem inclined to change their minds. It bothers me a great deal to think of the fate that awaits them. If I thought for a moment that their fate would only be temporary I might be able to draw some comfort from that belief. However, I've spent a great deal of time studying and praying over these verses and I keep coming up with the same conclusion...the fate of the unsaved is not temporary and not merely separation from God. One of the most difficult obstacles is that the "inconvenient" verses the CIs and Annihilationists face mostly are spoken by Jesus Himself. In fact many people believe that Jesus spoke of Hell more often than any other biblical figure. That is debatable but one thing is not. He did speak of it and He was usually very specific. His descriptions tend to be the ones that elicit images of a fiery and horrible place of eternal punishment. The verses that are used to suggest that Hell is a temporary condition are generally not the ones that Jesus spoke. So, to accept a belief that proposes this temporary condition one finds themselves having to rationalize what Jesus really meant. Of course this is just my opinion. I recognize that and that is why I decided to keep this post much more condensed than it was originally. I do hope this does not sound like an attack. I have tried to keep things low-key. I appreciate your efforts to keep this from becoming a brawl and wish to do the same. ~Neeva

Hi jenwat3, I wish to start by saying that I do not seek to attack you personally in any way. I do not post very much by some standards. That is because my focus and therefore my posts lean more toward evangelism than anything else. Unfortunately, in today's modern church you don't see much of that anymore. What is being done is usually unscriptural and producing "counterfeit Christians" whose later condition is worse than their first. I believe that the issue of Hell is very relevant to evangelism. I believe that you have been misled about what the Bible says about Hell and therefore are perpetuating that misinformation. This is understandable. Many people have been taught similar concepts. It is the misinformation that I take issue with. With many modern churches focusing on a ministry of "love, peace and joy" rather than "repentance" things are already in a serious state of affairs. Teaching that Hell is not really such a big deal only serves to worsen that situation. Some borderline unbelievers begin weighing the options of living any way they want because in the end they simply cease to exist while truly Saved individuals shy away from witnessing because it really doesn't matter, the consequences simply aren't that bad. It also diminishes the sacrifice that God made. He sent his Son to die on the cross for all of our sins. Well, that would have been a bit of an over reaction if the final result of not accepting that gift is simply to cease to exist. Why then did He make such an enormous sacrifice? So that some could have salvation? Well, those that reject that salvation aren't really going to care very much when they are no longer sentient. I believe His purpose for making this sacrifice goes further than that. I believe it is because the alternative is much worse than annihilation. I believe that the scriptures teach us this. Quenched means to "put out" or "put and end to". You seem to agree with that much. Therefore when the Bible tells us that this fire will not be quenched I would assume that you would also agree that it means it "cannot be put out". If it cannot be put out then we are not really left with any scenario in which it goes out for any reason. If this is the case then what about those unsaved souls? They burn up? Cease to exist? Everlasting simply means to "last forever". Several of the scriptures that I quoted refer to this punishment as everlasting. The punishment is not something separate from the person being punished. When I was young and told to stand in the corner of the classroom I knew that I was being punished. After a time when I was allowed to return to my seat I knew that the punishment was over. There was not an invisible activity of punishment continuing in that particular corner of the classroom. "Everlasting punishment" tells us therefore that it goes on forever and for it to be a punishment someone has to experience it. The scriptures quite clearly tell us that the unsaved will be among those experiencing this punishment. Hades actually means something quite different than the grave. However, your exception to my post seems to focus mostly on the suggestion of an everlasting punishment for the unsaved. So, I don't really think that spending time on that particular topic in this thread would be very valuable. My concern is that if we diminish or allow to be diminished what the Bible teaches us about Hell then we make it easer for souls to slip into that place. Trying to convert sinners to Christ by scaring them with Hell is not very effective. Spurring the Saved on to greater efforts at witnessing to the unsaved is! ~Neeva

I am concerned by the constant use of the phrase "separation from God" to describe Hell with hardly any mention of the torturous punishment that goes along with it. One person has even suggested that "humans who will be sent there will not burn forever in eternal torment. They will simply be gone forever". This is not what the Bible teaches. It is very important to understand what the Bible says about Hell. It should motivate the Saved into fervent action to seek out and witness to the Lost. The word "hell" doesn't actually appear in the original text. Three words are commonly translated as "hell" in our modern Bibles. They are "Gehenna", "Hades" and "Sheol". Gehenna is a place of punishment. Hades is where the dead live and Sheol is the grave. The question was asked what if neither Hitler nor Mother Teresa were saved. Would they both receive the same punishment? Well, I can't answer that question. However, I do have an observation. Hitler should hope that the "annihilationist" is correct. In that scenario he and Mother Teresa simply cease to exist. His punishment is to simply stop being a conscious being. In fact, he doesn't even know that he is being punished. Not a bad deal actually if you're a mass murderer. However, there are scriptures that paint a different picture of Hell. Luke 16: 19-31 tells us about a rich man that went to Hell. He was conscious, felt pain, thirst and felt remorse. The KJV says that he was tormented by flame. These were Jesus' words. In Mark 9: 43-48 Jesus tells us that it would be better to maim ourselves (remove hand, foot or eye) then to be cast into Hell whole where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. Here are some other references regarding the fate of the unsaved: "Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2) "Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46) "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51) "Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17) "Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9) "Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9) "Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13) Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night." I am not suggesting that we hit the unsaved over the head with a baseball bat of "fire and brimstone". However, it should be a factor in how the Saved conduct themselves in the area of evangelism. ~Neeva

Seeing these reminded me of another product. Unfortunately this other product was not as nice. Kitty Speak ~Neeva

Perhaps you could eliminate some of the confusion by providing examples of things that you consider as not being absolutes. ~Neeva

Another interesting statistic that Baptist have identified is that roughly 98% of the members of any given church have never witnessed to anyone. If even close it is very sobering. ~Neeva

While this certainly does nothing to support an evolutionistic theory of man's presence it does reinforce how much like animals men can become without God. ~Neeva

Put those thoughts behind you...it is non-productive thought...People are so private and non-commital that people move in and put of church in our transient society...it is not proof positive that they were not concerned about you...they may not have known how to approach you. People often don't know what to say, without being overly confrontational or nosey... I appreciate the sentiment but I was attempting to make a point (quite poorly obviously). Personally I would not care very much either way. I was concerned by the number of responses suggesting that if anyone brought the issue up it would be a bad thing. While I certainly understand that it could be done with that motivation I was trying to point out that it didn't necessarily have to be. ~Neeva

Wow! This is great news. I can't wait to hear what the commssion on "Is the sky blue?" has determined. ~Neeva

Then again, if I had been absent for an extended period of time and nobody asked me where or why I had been I would feel that nobody really cared that much for me in the first place. ~Neeva

As long as we draw breath in this life we are still sinners. ~Neeva

It is a wonderful opportunity to witness to them! You don't even have to beat the hedges. They're coming right to you. ~Neeva

I would think that it needs to be handled like any situation involving sin and church "membership". Use the process of Church Discipline to deal with any issues. ~Neeva

Dilemma, I am concerned about your post. Your reasons for not attending can all be summed up as "I'm not good enough". Well, that's not a reason not to attend. Nobody is "good" enough. Your reasons for attending are a mixed bag. The first sounds like "I'm getting better." Well, since it wasn't a reason not to attend in the first place it is not really relevant. The second and third are more encouraging but hinge on a much more important matter. Partaking of the Lord's supper is an important event in any Christian's life. A changed life is a definite characteristic of a Christian's life. So, the most important question then is "Are you a Christian?" If you are then get back to church and don't let these things keep you out. Pray, speak to your pastor or find a church friend you are comfortable speaking to but do not stay out. If you are not or are not sure then you need to deal with this issue. None of these items mean anything in this case because you would have a much more serious issue at hand. Again, the advice is the same, talk to someone at your church and seek their guidance in this matter. Another bit of advice is taking the test below. It is a neat little device that can get you thinking about important things and help focus your search. Am I a Good Person? ~Neeva

This one confuses a lot of people. Part of the difficulty is that we tend to measure things by our own standards and that simply doesn't work. However, since we are stuck with that inclination it is difficult to get around. The first thing to point out is that the wording of your question is somewhat loaded. Obviously sending someone to an eternal, firery punishment is not an act of love. It is an act of judgment. "Wait a minute! God is love. Is he not?" Yes, God is love. However, we have to remember that He is also Just. As a just God He must punish sin. Since we have all sinned then we are all headed for hell. Now here's where the love part comes in. Since God loves us so much He provided a way for us to escape this judgment. The second thing to point out is that it is quite arrogant to choose to not agree with God. We owe our very existence to Him. Original sin is the term applied to the state we are all born into because of the first sin that was committed by man, Adam. When Adam committed this first sin he set in motion the fall from grace for every human being. I'm not sure I understand your question but I'll take a stab at it. The bible teaches us that all have sinned, "fallen short". It is saying quite simply that none of us are perfect. "What do you mean I have sinned? I have never done anything wrong." Perhaps by our own standards we feel that we're pretty good. Unfortunately it is not our standards that matter. We are accountable to God's standards, the Ten Commandments. By these standards we have indeed all sinned. ~Neeva

In the ideal situation you are correct. Unfortunately, I fear that many churches have long since abandoned the leadership of the Holy Spirit and allowed man's methods to slowly slip in. Thus it is not unusual to find people in leadership roles that are quite likely not only not heeding the Spirit's guidance but are not even taking His messages. Again, this depends on how well known the Holy Spirit is in that particular church. You are describing the exact situation that I am referring to. This is why I don't believe that your first comment about them already being acquainted with the Holy Spirit will bear out unfortunately. I would be interested in learning where you came by this information. I have not heard this before. ~Neeva

This is a very interesting topic. One that I have struggled with for quite some time. I don't have any serious issues with the idea of "membership" at first glance. However, when I started to see how different people defined that term I realized that there may be more to it than I at first realized. Even in this brief thread there are already differing view points on just what "membership" means. After reading this thread I see that some churches even have different "levels of membership". Absolutely amazing! One of the recurring comments that I hear is that "membership" means I agree with the Statement of Faith of a particular church or it's ByLaws or both. Well, if that is indeed true then I am in quite a fix. While I do not run into many problems with most of the Statements of Faith that I encounter I have yet to find a set of ByLaws that I wholly agree with. I promise that I won't use this as a springboard to vent over the unbiblical use of deacons that I have seen in almost every church I have attended since I was twelve. So, if I have an issue with a small part of the ByLaws should I not become a member? I honestly don't know. As it has already been pointed out the rolls of most churches contain the names of large numbers of people that do not attend a given church on a regular basis. So, why keep them there? The answer I hear most frequently is that they are "members". Really? So, being a member does not necessarily require you to attend the church to which you claim membership? It's ludicrous. Who are we trying to impress with these numbers? Maybe we're not trying to impress anybody. Perhaps we simply don't wish to hurt anyone's feelings. Well, if that is the case then I suggest we stop witnessing immediately. After all, telling somebody that is unsaved that they are headed for hell can be quite upsetting and hurt feelings are likely to ensue. I don't have the answers. For the most part I simply let these issues slip past for right or wrong. I strongly believe that we need to be in "attendance" at church. Instead of worrying about these earthly rolls I personally try to focus on evangelism. Now that is something I do believe is severly lacking in churches and should consume great amounts of our attention! ~Neeva

Any Christians? ~Neeva

Masorite had it right. This is not the type of thing you would be discussing with an unsaved person if your intent was to bring them to a knowledge of their need for salvation. ~Neeva

The Myth of a Christian Lifestyle Witness I used to believe that I could be an effective witness by simply living a Christian life. Others would see the way I lived and be prompted to ask me why I chose to be different. This belief was reinforced from the pulpit. I was relieved. Truth be told I was afraid to approach people and start talking about Heaven and Hell. What would they think? What would they say? What would they do? These fears kept me clinging dearly to this "silent" witnessing approach. It helped me feel good about avoiding an uncomfortable task. I finally learned that I was mistaken. This teaching is not biblical. In fact the bible teaches us that we are all responsible for sharing the gospel. Mark 16:15 (King James Version) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. I know you are most likely familiar with this verse. It is called the Great Commission. It speaks to all of us that claim the gift of salvation. A couple of words stand out for me; "Go" and "preach". These are action words. They imply a deliberate act. This doesn't adequately describe the situation we see in "living a Christian witness". "Accidental witnessing" more accurately describes when someone comes to us solely because they think we are living differently than other people. Luke 10:2 (King James Version) Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth laborers into his harvest. According to some statistics nearly 98% of the people filling our church pews have never witnessed to another soul. This is a very disturbing thought! A laborer is someone that provides a service or performs a task. An employer doesn't hire laborers in the hopes that their mere presence will get a job done. He expects them to act. As laborers for God why are we content to think it is different for us? 1 Corinthians 9:16 (King James Version) For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! Paul felt very strongly about witnessing. He felt it was his responsibility and that not doing it was a sad thing. Should we be saddened if we choose not to witness? If we truly believe that the unsaved are going to be cast into a real, burning Hell I think the answer is obvious. We wouldn't wish that fate on anyone. We would do most everything possible to warn them. Ephesians 6:19-20 (King James Version) And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. Paul prayed that he would speak boldly of the gospel. He said it was the very thing that he "ought" to do. It's the same for us. This is something that we should be doing! Fortunately I no longer believe that simply living a Christian life is a substitute for actually seeking someone out and telling them about God's plan of salvation. Unfortunately I wasted a lot of years before I realized this fact. I still have fears. One of them is the blood that will be on my hands on judgment day. The blood of those that I avoided witnessing to because I was uncomfortable. Those that failed to make a decision for Christ before it was too late. ~Neeva