wingnut-

ORIGIN OF APOSTASY 1350–1400; Middle English apostasye (< Anglo-French) < Late Latin apostasia < Greek: a standing away, withdrawing, equivalent to apóstas(is) (apo- apo- + sta- stand + -sis -sis) + -ia -ia noun, plural a·pos·ta·sies. a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc. This has nothing to do with pre-trib, it has to do with the understanding of the word, where it is derived from, and what it means. As I stated before, when one uses the word apostate or apostasy, we all know very well this is a negative thing. Unfortunately some have decided to take this very negative thing and turn it into something else in order to create what they believe is an argument to support something else. The only thing this has to do with pre-trib, is that it is pre-trib that wants to twist the meaning of this word.

No, I have no need to hear it from somewhere else, I can simply read.

Brother I am not disagreeing with you in regards to any of that, in fact, what we see throughout scripture are in fact dual prophecies that can be applied in that time and also we see them again occurring in the future. But for the sake of discussion, let's examine some of what is said and put your theory to the test that this is about a swarm of locusts. Joel 2:2 a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness! Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains a great and powerful people; their like has never been before, nor will be again after them through the years of all generations. Verse 2, a great and powerful people. How do you turn them into locusts? Joel 2:8 They do not jostle one another; each marches in his path; they burst through the weapons and are not halted. What weapons does one use to thwart a locust army? Joel 2:10 The earth quakes before them; the heavens tremble. The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining. The earth quakes before a swarm of locusts and the heavens tremble? There have been a lot of locust swarms over the course of history but you would be hard pressed to find these type of comments attributed to a large group of insects. Joel 2:11 The Lord utters his voice before his army, for his camp is exceedingly great; he who executes his word is powerful. For the day of the Lord is great and very awesome; who can endure it? The Lord's leading an army of locusts? This is His camp? Joel 2:30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls. This is how it concludes. Blood, fire, and columns of smoke, from locusts? The sun goes dark, the moon turns to blood before the aforementioned day of the Lord occurs. People who call on His name will be saved, from locusts? There will be survivors, from locusts? I mean, if it said some olive trees would survive then maybe you would have a case, but it is talking about people. I have to say, you are the first person I have ever run across that doesn't believe this is an end times prophecy. God bless

That is exactly what you are claiming it says though, but we do agree that your rendering is nonsensical if that is any comfort to you. Apostasia is the very word apostasy comes from, as well as the root word for apostate. William showed you an example from Daniel above as well, same word, it means what it means. God bless

Not seeing the forest for the trees. John places the verse in chapter 11 for a reason iamlamad, if what you say were true then he would have just put it in chapter 9 like he did following the first woe. Until you can provide an intelligent response as to why the 2nd woe is written with the 2 witnesses you have no argument. It wasn't put there so you could invent an imaginary parentheses either, learn to accept scripture as it is written. You have no intelligent response so you keep dancing around addressing the issue that proves you false. I'm done wasting my time with you.

No, what you showed me are a bunch of obscure translations that the vast majority of people don't consider accurate at all. What version of the bible do you use iamlamad? What bible version is it that you carry to church with you on sunday morning? You have KJV written all over you, I imagine you even attend a church where any other version of the bible is considered suspect.

S0 you mean for example, if someone decided to add imaginary parentheses so they could move things around at their leisure?

King James version Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Hmmmmm, no parentheses in the most widely used version of the bible. By the way, this is the version I had when I was 8 years old. ESV - the version I currently prefer most because of the literal translation Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Nope, no parentheses there either. NASB - would be my third choice of translations Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Nope, no parentheses there either. Now that we're done inspecting the translations I prefer, which were not on your list by the way, how about we get back to the actual topic and forget your deflection? Show me how many versions of the bible have parentheses in Chapter 11 of Revelation please. Oh wait! We already covered this didn't we? That number would be ZERO. Who is it that thinks they know more than all the translators? The guy who doesn't know Greek at all.

Exactly how does one remove something that does not exist anyway?

Of course, that is why you can't give a reason for why the verse appears in chapter 11 and not in chapter 9. It must be written with the 2 witnesses for a reason, which is why you used to believe they were in the first half of the week. Now you understand they are not, but you can't reconcile that verse so you are going to pretend that it doesn't appear there. There is absolutely no reason you can give for why that verse appears there and not in chapter 9, your theory falls apart.

Because I understand the book is not chronological, by simply following what it says.

Yes pot with the imaginary parentheses, keep calling the kettle black.

No, it is simply reading a passage in context and what is known as reading comprehension. Your little trickery is to isolate one verse away from the context to try and make a point that doesn't hold up to prove another point that doesn't hold up. You're getting more and more desperate. You know, when God gave the Word to the Jewish people, He told them not to change one jot or tittle, what do you suppose adding parentheses qualifies as? I know this much, and I say this in all sincerity, but we are specifically given warnings about adding to or taking away from this book. You really should tread carefully, don't love your theory too much. Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come. Revelation 9:13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number. 17 And this is how I saw the horses in my vision and those who rode them: they wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulfur, and the heads of the horses were like lions' heads, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths. 19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents with heads, and by means of them they wound. 20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, 21 nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

I understood this as written at 8 years old, no parentheses required, it is self explanatory.

Yes, let's try again and see if you continue to evade answering. We know the 6th trumpet is the 2nd woe, but John doesn't write it here, why? Why does it comes 2 chapters later following the passage on the 2 witnesses? The answer is simple, because we are to understand that the 6th trumpet is connected to the events found where the 2nd woe is stated as taking place. It is lost on you, but not anyone else. That is why your imaginary parentheses is rejected, because it is false. There is absolutely no reason for that information to be found there for any other reason. If John didn't want verse 14 to go with the 2 witnesses he would have written it in chapter 9, or better yet, written the 2 witnesses later on. You can't come up with any reason for it to appear where it does, and you don't understand it because you are not open to learn, so instead you create and present a total fiction. Good luck with that.

You're just not catching on at all. John didn't use parentheses. John speaks of the 2nd woe precisely where he was told to for a reason, it is the Revelation of Jesus. It says what it says, and where it says it. Here is my point, no illusions. Revelation 9 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. Chapter 9 begins with the 5th trumpet which is the first woe, and after we read of what it says John concludes it by saying this. Revelation 9:12 The first woe has passed; behold, two woes are still to come. Then John writes about the 6th trumpet, which is the second woe. Revelation 9:13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number. 17 And this is how I saw the horses in my vision and those who rode them: they wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulfur, and the heads of the horses were like lions' heads, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths. 19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents with heads, and by means of them they wound. 20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, 21 nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. We know the 6th trumpet is the 2nd woe, but John doesn't write it here, why? Why does it comes 2 chapters later following the passage on the 2 witnesses? The answer is simple, because we are to understand that the 6th trumpet is connected to the events found where the 2nd woe is stated as taking place. It is lost on you, but not anyone else. That is why your imaginary parentheses is rejected, because it is false. There is absolutely no reason for that information to be found there for any other reason. If John didn't want verse 14 to go with the 2 witnesses he would have written it in chapter 9, or better yet, written the 2 witnesses later on. You can't come up with any reason for it to appear where it does, and you don't understand it because you are not open to learn, so instead you create and present a total fiction. Good luck with that. God bless

I don't believe it takes even a couple of days, it is sudden destruction, not gradual. And Jacob's time of trouble is not 3.5 years from what I can find. What you see as the first half I see as the second half, and I can show it in scripture that way but I am not going to do that in someone else's thread. God bless

Again, that is your imaginary rabbit hole, you are going down it alone. John attaches chapter 11 to the second woe, your entire premise is to eliminate verse 14 and rewrite scripture how you want it to appear. If John wanted to separate them, he would have written this at the conclusion of the 6th trumpet in chapter 9 like he did with the 5th trumpet, he didn't, there is a reason it appears where it does. God bless

It doesn't read that way to me, it would appear we see things in different segments. What I see is this in Matthew 24. Matthew 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. The great tribulation is a 3 1/2 year period which begins with the AoD, coincides with all of the 3 1/2 year time periods we find in Revelation, and runs to the very end of the week. That's how it reads to me. God bless

And yet John attached the second woe to the two witnesses in chapter 11 rather than say it in chapter 9, like he did with the first woe. You can't explain it, but you will certainly never convince anyone else not to see it, that much is clear. This is what you need to be asking yourself. I will never agree with you because I know you are wrong, so we'll leave it at that. John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” God bless

Yes, I am sure at some point in the past we have discussed this connection between Jerusalem and the Babylon of Revelation. I do believe they are one and the same, so from there it is a matter of resolving the issue of Jerusalem remaining forever and Babylon being destroyed forever. You touched on what I believe is the explanation in your response, the spiritual nature of all this. Ancient Babylon is destroyed, so this Babylon of the end times is a symbolic reference relating to what takes place there spiritually. The religion of that time is going to be the last false religion to exist, the worst to have existed, and when it falls there will never again exist such a thing. What follows is Jesus' kingdom which will in fact stand forever, but there is a difference between modern day Jerusalem and Zion, His holy city. Something to consider in confirming this is what Jesus said Himself, in regards to His kingdom, which is where He will rule from on earth. John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” There are a few other things worth considering, one being, the actual land that is promised to Abraham's seed in Genesis. Genesis 15: 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.” So from the Nile River to the Euphrates river, that is the area which makes up the promised land that Israel never took complete possession of, but it is a promise from God that it is all of that land, which means this promise is yet future. It brings to mind the passages from the prophets that speak of a highway from Egypt and Assyria, because this area of land involves those exact borders. The second thing to consider is the size of Ezekiel's temple, another future prophecy to be fulfilled. It is larger than Jerusalem itself, but when you consider the area that will be Israel later we can see that this temple will fit in the larger territory. Anyway, that is how I understand it, let me know what you think. God bless

I tend to agree that the first seal, and possibly the first four have been opened already. I think in many ways we already see the instruments in place to make all of our lives extremely uncomfortable in very short order. In some places in the world, the cost of putting food on the table for a person already exceeds a daily wage for example, so I think sometimes in western society we tend to forget to look what is happening beyond our own borders. Also, how quickly that could happen to us. I'm not convinced that the beast is here yet though, which I kind of touched on in the other thread, however I do think it is very likely that the instruments are in place. Let's say the thought that there is a man, who is apparently killed, is restored to life and thus becomes the beast. I would say if that ideology is true, then that man would most likely be alive right now, but I don't see him as the beast yet. I don't disagree with what you said in the other thread, that just because it doesn't say anything about the abyss being opened here doesn't mean it isn't possible. It is possible, of course. The question is, why would it not be said until later? I mean technically, it isn't information we necessarily need to know at all in either case, unless there is a reason for it. So the absence of it at the first seal gives me pause, also, I am not sure that this "beast" is really going to be restrained once he is set loose. I guess in a way, when we consider that something is restraining him for a specific time, that once he is set loose nothing restrains him, at least not according to what I see in scripture. Maybe I'm just not quite understanding your entire thought line here, so if I have gone off course let me know, interested in continuing the discussion. I am undecided on the first four seals basically, not sure I have heard any theory that strikes me as right yet. I do though get the impression they have been opened, or at least some of them have been. I try to keep in mind that until Jesus comes, things will go on as they have always been, so at the point these seals are opened everything will appear to still be normal. The fact that most Christians I knows seem to have this sense we are living in the end times, it is either something we all feel a spiritual way, or we are all mistaken. I don't believe we are all mistaken, there is something at work here. God bless

Yes, that is what I believe. I would say it is more than an ideological connection, as there are physical instruments put in place. Revelation 13:13 It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, 14 and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. 16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. There is a physical image, an idol or statue of some sort erected that will be given breath and might even speak. Wherever this image is located, would that not make a physical place of power? This place is also where the "image" demands worship and implements the mark of the beast which now incorporates buying or selling and the consolidation of wealth to pass through this place. God bless

God I believe. We are waiting on what is known as the fullness of the Gentiles to come in, until that time is fulfilled we wait. God bless