wingnut-

Yes they take the city, it tells us in verse 2 the city will be taken. They do not completely destroy the city though, there is going to be a massive earthquake when the Lord sets down on the Mt. of Olives, this is where the people who flee go. Whether the forces remain in the city or not remains to be seen.

If all information is not taken into account, then the right conclusion can never be arrived at. I am also not spiritualizing vast swaths of scripture, the passage begins speaking of comfort for the people, then says speak tenderly to Jerusalem. Of course the most important aspect that has been completely overlooked is that Jerusalem receives the double portion. Isaiah 40:Comfort, comfort my people, says your God. 2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and cry to her that her warfare is ended, that her iniquity is pardoned, that she has received from the Lord's hand double for all her sins. The reason both the people and the city are mentioned is because everywhere in prophecy it is sectioned off specifically as Judah and Jerusalem. Ephraim is given different prophecies regarding this time, as are other peoples. Judah and Jerusalem though go hand in hand together, this is consistency. Nearly 200 times in scripture the two are said interchangeably. The first 5 chapters of Isaiah are regarding judgement against Judah and Jerusalem. In many of the occasions these two are said together in scripture it specifies Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. The reason the people are being comforted and it says speak tenderly and cry to her is because they believed earthly Jerusalem was sacred to the Lord, which it was at one point, but that city has been destroyed and rebuilt several times over now. What exists there in the end times is flat out blasphemy and direct worship of satan from within what is supposed to be God's temple. This is what God has in store for her, per Isaiah. Isaiah 29 Ah, Ariel, Ariel, the city where David encamped! Add year to year; let the feasts run their round. 2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be moaning and lamentation, and she shall be to me like an Ariel. 3 And I will encamp against you all around, and will besiege you with towers and I will raise siegeworks against you. 4 And you will be brought low; from the earth you shall speak, and from the dust your speech will be bowed down; your voice shall come from the ground like the voice of a ghost, and from the dust your speech shall whisper.

It is important to take into account everything that happens throughout these last seven years. Revelation 6:7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth. Most likely this is where it begins, but anything that follows I am not claiming in any particular order. Starting with the fourth seal, 25% of the earth is subject to this, that doesn't mean 25% of the earth's population is killed, just that they are subjected to the possibility from this horseman. Bottom line, a lot of people are going to die. Revelation 8:10 The third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11 The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many people died from the water, because it had been made bitter. No idea how many, but a lot of people die here. Revelation 9:13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind. One third of mankind is killed by this trumpet, and in my view this is very near the end. On top of all the deaths in this aspect you also have all the deaths resulting from the war on the saints, so suffice it to say by the time we get to the end the population of the earth is going to be greatly diminished. So by the time we get to the 6th trumpet, remember it is one third of however many are left alive. Besides all this death that has been occurring, we also have a lot of gathering going on at the end. Everyone it would seem is being drawn to this area, whether for good or evil. The unholy trio is gathering people to fight at Armageddon, and God is gathering people as well, some for resurrection, and He is also gathering the Jewish people. Deuteronomy 30 “And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, 2 and return to the Lord your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have mercy on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. 4 If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there he will take you. 5 And the Lord your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. 7 And the Lord your God will put all these curses on your foes and enemies who persecuted you. In Revelation chapter 11 we are told that Jerusalem is overrun and trampled by the gentiles, scripture indicates that the majority of the remnant will flee at that time. According to Revelation 12 they flee to the wilderness, which is confirmed by both Isaiah and Hosea. When we come to the very end, the day of His return, there appear to be many Jews in the city of Jerusalem to me. So, did those that fled earlier return at some point near the end, or did other Jews from around the world just come because they were drawn there? If you're asking me to completely understand everything that God is doing at this time, I can't, and neither can anyone else. Verse 7 from the Deuteronomy passage though clarifies that this gathering of the Jews does not just happen at the end, but prior to when He takes the cup from them, and turns it on their enemies. I would imagine that His faithful remnant will find themselves back in the land before it is over. Jerusalem becomes a magnet at the end, a cup of staggering for the wicked.

Yes. The entire land is made desolate and then God restores it, with a new landscape.

Daniel 5:30 That very night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed. 31 And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old.

The city is still there when Jesus returns to the earth. The beast and the kings do not destroy it, they attack it and set it on fire and assault the people, Jesus is the one who purifies the land with His wrath. Revelation 11 tells us that the city is split in two, and Zechariah tells us this. Zechariah 14 Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. 5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. So the question is, half the city goes out into exile, is that half of the city or half of the people? Because it says the rest (which would have to be the other half of the people) shall not be cut off from the city. At the very least, half of the city is still standing.

The very first verse says "comfort, comfort my people", I am not sure how you can remove them from the equation.

Not really, it is simply following what is written, the verse you posted tells us that this is the case. Revelation 18:2 And he called out with a mighty voice, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast. The scripture I posted tell us that the beast, the false prophet, satan, wicked people, and fallen angels all are put into the lake of fire, this becomes their permanent habitation, their dwelling place for eternity. Everything unclean will be thrown into the lake of fire. We also know that right now, at this moment, there is no lake of fire here on earth. The verse tells us that fallen Babylon becomes this habitation that presently does not appear on the planet, but is certainly here at the conclusion of Armageddon.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. 9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. 11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. Mountains are symbolically used to represent kingdoms in scripture, for example, God refers to His kingdom Zion as His holy mountain. Psalms 48 Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised in the city of our God! His holy mountain, 2 beautiful in elevation, is the joy of all the earth, Mount Zion, in the far north, the city of the great King. 3 Within her citadels God has made himself known as a fortress. Babylon itself is described as a mountain. Jeremiah 51:24 “I will repay Babylon and all the inhabitants of Chaldea before your very eyes for all the evil that they have done in Zion, declares the Lord. 25 “Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, declares the Lord, which destroys the whole earth; I will stretch out my hand against you, and roll you down from the crags, and make you a burnt mountain. 26 No stone shall be taken from you for a corner and no stone for a foundation, but you shall be a perpetual waste, declares the Lord. There were 7 heads, so 7 kingdoms, and 5 of them were fallen kingdoms, one existed at the time John wrote Revelation, and one more would rise after it but would be brief. Then the angel tells us that the beast is an eighth but it belongs to the seven. So, kingdoms have everything to do with it because that eighth kingdom of the beasts will be Babylon of Revelation. This is displayed in the passage from Jeremiah, God will repay Babylon for all the evil they have done in Zion, and also speaks to this destructive kingdom as destroying the whole earth. All the evil that is done in Zion is referring to the desolation of the temple, the erection of the image of the beast, the worship of the beast, and the war on the saints which are all carried out from this city. Belshazzar was a Chaldean, like his father before him and those before him, the Chaldean kingdom came to an end, Babylon. As of that night it became the kingdom of Darius the Mede, later shared with the Persians, an entirely separate kingdom. Their kingdom would later fall to the Greek kingdom, which would later fall to the Roman kingdom. When Babylon conquered Assyria the Assyrian kingdom was done as well, this is how we have 5 fallen kingdoms. It was no longer Babylon, it was now part of the Mede/Persia kingdom. Ancient Babylon is one of the 5 fallen kingdoms represented by the 7 heads in Revelation, just like Assyria which it conquered.

I don't think we do honestly, 2 years ago I also believed it would be Babylon based on the same literal understanding you are using today. The difference really comes down to how we view what happened to ancient Babylon and whether or not it can be restored as a kingdom. Based on what we are told in Daniel 5 I don't believe it is possible for a restored Babylon. God said their days were numbered, and that very night a Mede took over the kingdom. I just don't see how that can be undone. Because of that fact, there must be another explanation. I agree that it leaves open other possibilities, the purpose was to establish that Jerusalem does in fact qualify, not that no one else does. From Ezekiel 16 itself we see that Samaria and Sodom both qualify, but Sodom was eliminated of course, and Samaria has not been a kingdom since the Assyrian invasion. If there are other mother of harlots in scripture, we can certainly consider the possibility. The mother of harlots designation is just one thing that points at Jerusalem though. Isaiah begins this in verse 1 though as referencing His people, so in this instance based on context it does not appear to apply to the city itself, but moreso the kingdom. Isaiah 40 Comfort, comfort my people, says your God. 2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and cry to her that her warfare is ended, that her iniquity is pardoned, that she has received from the Lord's hand double for all her sins. 3 A voice cries: “In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord; make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain. 5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

Yes, it is called the lake of fire, which also is consistent with the Jewish Gehenna, where rubbish is disposed of outside the city. The next question would be, how do we know that? Revelation 19:3 Once more they cried out, “Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up forever and ever.” Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence[e] had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. The lake of fire is there for the beast and the false prophet at the conclusion of Armageddon, and satan and the rest of the wicked join them at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” And later we are told that they are outside the city. Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

I think he is very confused angels, just from what I quoted above he makes the same mistake that those who want to turn the woman into "religion" make, he disregards what the angel specifically gives as the interpretation for the woman. Revelation 17: 18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.” 6 highlighted words undo his entire argument, period. His confusion enters because of failure to grasp the timing and to take into account all the information we have gained from within scripture. What trips so many people up is they cannot understand how the beast and the kings can turn on the woman and destroy her. It is really very simple when you consider the when, and the why. Start with the why. Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. Satan has always wanted to changed God's plan, convinced by doing so he can somehow win the war. A large part of that throughout history has been to claim Jerusalem, as he does not understand the difference between earthly Jerusalem and the heavenly Jerusalem. From the moment he is cast down to the earth he wants to destroy the Israelites, but God won't let him. This makes him furious, but he has overrun the city already by this point and takes out his frustration on Christians instead. The remnant of Jews are protected for 1260 days exactly, so that leads us to the when part. Revelation 17:15 And the angel said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. 16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, 17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. The city of Jerusalem was overrun by the gentiles 3.5 years earlier, which is why you see the multitude, nations, and languages represented. We are now at the end, the war on the saints is over and so is the protection for the woman, so the enemy can now do exactly what he originally intended to do by destroying the Jewish people and the city, the kingdom of Israel if you prefer. The end is near, the signs of Jesus' coming are in the sky and the enemy knows it is almost over so he sets about doing what God has willed for him to do. So the why is because this is what God intends for him to do, and the when can only be carried out once the time of protection is over. This is why it happens at the very end, which that author also is confused about trying to claim Babylon falls twice. John tells us when it falls, right at the end.

Yes, and what those verses indicate to me is that the deeds of the people, which were not just limited to child sacrifice, but also idolatry and intermarriages with the Canaanites are what is in question here. So we are not simply talking about a city, but a kingdom, which includes city, king, and the people that live within it. I would say this applies to the overall context of the chapter, which is dealing with a kingdom. I don't imagine you believe the actual city committed these offenses anymore than I do. What we are really talking about here is a kingdom. The argument for a physical Jerusalem comes mostly from one specific chapter in Zechariah. So the question is, what exactly is Zechariah speaking of? Zechariah 14:10 The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft on its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's winepresses. 11 And it shall be inhabited, for there shall never again be a decree of utter destruction. Jerusalem shall dwell in security. First he tells us what John tells us, along with other prophets like Isaiah, that the land is turned to a plain, the mountains are brought down and the valleys are raised. The area he speaks of begins with Geba, which was located about 5 1/2 miles north of Jerusalem in the territory of Benjamin. No one seems to agree on exactly where Rimmon was located, but in the book of Joshua we see it is part of Judah's allotment, one of 29 cities located at the extreme south along the border of Edom. That border went all the way down to what was known as the Gulf of Aqaba, which is the right arm of the Red Sea that extends up to define the Sinai peninsula. Then Zechariah speaks about the Benjamin Gate. Scripture speaks of a Benjamin gate 3 times in the book of Jeremiah (20:2, 37:13, 38:7). The only other two times it is mentioned in scripture are Zechariah 14 above, and Ezekiel 48:32, which is in relation to the Millennial kingdom in which there are 12 gates, all of which are named after the 12 tribes of Israel. There are currently 8 gates in Jerusalem, named the following, Jaffa Gate, Zion Gate, Dung Gate, Golden Gate, Stephen's Gate, Herod's Gate, Damascus Gate, and New Gate. All 8 of those gates were built by the Turkish sultan Suleiman the Magnificent in the early 16th century, and it seems highly unlikely to me that they have any association to the gates Zechariah speaks of. There was also a tower of Hananel at one point, it is spoken of in Jeremiah 31:38, and twice in Nehemiah (3:1, 12:39). The fact that it no longer stands also speaks to the Millennial kingdom and the place Christ went to prepare for us, and has nothing to do with modern day Jerusalem. An interesting sidenote, Hananel literally means "God has been gracious". Zechariah also says in the passage that there will never again be a decree of utter destruction, which points to the city which exists today being utterly destroyed.

It is indeed interesting, I am about to try my third attempt to respond to Steve on one particular post, the first two times now I have lost everything lol.

I did watch the sermon yesterday, and 2 years ago I agreed with his position, but no longer. What the gentleman fails to do is address some very important aspects in regards to timing, which he talks around a bit. As far as addressing the Jerusalem end of things, he fails miserably, attacking one individual's flawed eschatology from a preterist perspective. Of course there wouldn't be a single preterist that would see Babylon as Babylon because at the time they believe everything occurred Babylon was insignificant. Addressing things from just that one single viewpoint does not begin to address the scripture in question. So let's just look at one specific angle that cannot be reconciled by his position, the timing. Revelation 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. The 7th bowl puts the end of Babylon right at the end of everything, and by his position that puts the beast and his armies in Babylon right at that moment. This simply does not align with scripture, look at what takes place at the 6th bowl. Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. The beast and his armies, along with all the kings and their armies assemble at Armageddon at the 6th bowl, they do not survive that, and it is not happening in Iraq, it is happening just outside of Jerusalem. So there is a serious timing issue in that regard, then on top of that, where does scripture say everyone goes, and what city is it that they come up against? Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, 17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.” Zechariah 12:2 “Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the surrounding peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah. 3 On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who lift it will surely hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth will gather against it. Also comparing what the beast and the ten kings do to the woman to what else Zechariah tells us. Zechariah 14: 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Also, Isaiah in addressing the state of the land at the restoration of Israel. Isaiah 49:8 Thus says the Lord: “In a time of favor I have answered you; in a day of salvation I have helped you; I will keep you and give you as a covenant to the people, to establish the land, to apportion the desolate heritages, Isaiah 49:18 Lift up your eyes around and see; they all gather, they come to you. As I live, declares the Lord, you shall put them all on as an ornament; you shall bind them on as a bride does. 19 “Surely your waste and your desolate places and your devastated land— surely now you will be too narrow for your inhabitants, and those who swallowed you up will be far away.

I do the same, the only reason I can think of to not accept something literally is when an obvious contradiction occurs. In those instances there must be a reason for any apparent contradiction. Here is the problem with the idea of a restored Babylon, and in hindsight I really should have begun with this when you first asked what happened to Babylon. Let's start with what led up to the Babylonian exile, and we can see an obvious dual prophecy in scripture right here. Jeremiah begins this chapter talking about a very specific time, the first year of King Nebuchadnezzar. He tells about the warnings to Judah and Jerusalem from God to turn from their wicked ways and be obedient, which they do not do, so then he tells them what the Lord has in store for them. Jeremiah 25:8 “Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: Because you have not obeyed my words, 9 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the Lord, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. 10 Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp. 11 This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, declares the Lord, making the land an everlasting waste. 13 I will bring upon that land all the words that I have uttered against it, everything written in this book, which Jeremiah prophesied against all the nations. 14 For many nations and great kings shall make slaves even of them, and I will recompense them according to their deeds and the work of their hands.” Ok, so now we have a literal problem. Jerusalem has not been an everlasting desolation since the Babylonian captivity, the whole land is not a ruin and a waste. And what happened to Babylon after the seventy years? Did it become an everlasting waste? Jeremiah goes on to give us a list from God, of all the nations who are to drink from the cup of wrath. Jeremiah 25:17 So I took the cup from the Lord's hand, and made all the nations to whom the Lord sent me drink it: 18 Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, its kings and officials, to make them a desolation and a waste, a hissing and a curse, as at this day; 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his servants, his officials, all his people, 20 and all the mixed tribes among them; all the kings of the land of Uz and all the kings of the land of the Philistines (Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod); 21 Edom, Moab, and the sons of Ammon; 22 all the kings of Tyre, all the kings of Sidon, and the kings of the coastland across the sea; 23 Dedan, Tema, Buz, and all who cut the corners of their hair; 24 all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the mixed tribes who dwell in the desert; 25 all the kings of Zimri, all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of Media; 26 all the kings of the north, far and near, one after another, and all the kingdoms of the world that are on the face of the earth. And after them the king of Babylon shall drink. Now this is where the prophecy really begins to show the duality of its nature, verse 26 in particular. Jeremiah was instructed to take this cup to each of these nations, and at the end Babylon itself is to receive the cup. Are we to believe that Jeremiah literally covered the entire earth and every kingdom on it at that time? If you look really closely at the list prior to verse 26, what we see are all of the nations that Babylon took possession of during Nebuchadnezzar's reign. None of them immediately became an everlasting desolation. But again, what happened to Babylon after the 70 years? Daniel 5:24 “Then from his presence the hand was sent, and this writing was inscribed. 25 And this is the writing that was inscribed: Mene, Mene, Tekel, and Parsin. 26 This is the interpretation of the matter: Mene, God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end; 27 Tekel, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting; 28 Peres, your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians.” 29 Then Belshazzar gave the command, and Daniel was clothed with purple, a chain of gold was put around his neck, and a proclamation was made about him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom. 30 That very night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed. 31 And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old. Belshazzar had a party and decided it was a good idea for him and his guests to drink from the cups looted from the Lord's temple. The hand of God literally appeared and wrote on the wall, declaring the kingdom of Babylon was over, and it happened that very night. There is no more Babylon from that point as far as a kingdom, the city lingered for awhile, the Parsin part of the writing became half true that very night and was completed when Cyrus later took the city. Later it was taken by the Greeks, but after the death of Alexander and the wars that ensued it fell into a state of disrepair and eventually was swept away by the sand. But the point is, God declared the kingdom of Babylon as finished, literally, so it will not be rising again physically. But you're still literally changing the term, from mother of harlots, to the mother of all harlotry. The title is literally, mother of harlots, which Ezekiel tells us that Jerusalem is a harlot, and she has daughters that are also harlots. He gives us the proverb, "like mother, like daughter", which tells us that not only was Jerusalem a harlot, but her mother was a harlot, her sisters are harlots, and all their daughters are thereby harlots, just like their mothers. The difference is, Jerusalem and her daughters are singled out as being unique harlots, and for being worse than the others. If the requirement mother of harlots is taken at face value, then it is obvious that Jerusalem qualifies. When it is changed to mother of all harlotry then no one qualifies, but that is not what the passage says. We haven't really gotten into anything at this point, we are still having a difficult time with the title, mother of harlots. The only other detail mentioned thus far was in regards to the double portion and you did not respond to that, but really we have barely scratched the surface on specifics.

If those passages are to be taken literally, it would appear so. However, there are specific statements to be considered in all of this regarding Babylon. Revelation 18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more; This city will be "thrown down", and the understanding of that is in relation to its location, on the Judaean Mountains. The following is said as a result of the 7th bowl/vial. Revelation 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. If the mountains on which it sits are gone and not to be found, then it stands to reason that the city sitting on a mountain plateau is no longer sitting there and has in fact been literally "thrown down". And if the mountains it sat on are no longer there, then the Jerusalem of the Millennium cannot be the same city as earthly Jerusalem. The city that sits there now is a symbolic reference to the Zion of the future. Hebrews 12:18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. As Jesus said. John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” And His kingdom comes at this point. Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

I think you may have misread that, Oholibah (Jerusalem) is said to be worse, in both chapters. Ezekiel 23:11 “Her sister Oholibah saw this, and she became more corrupt than her sister in her lust and in her whoring, which was worse than that of her sister. Ezekiel 16:51 Samaria has not committed half your sins. You have committed more abominations than they, and have made your sisters appear righteous by all the abominations that you have committed. Jerusalem made Samaria and Sodom appear righteous. We are told who the parents are in the Ezekiel 16 passage, and Egypt is not the answer. Ezekiel 16:2 “Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations, 3 and say, Thus says the Lord God to Jerusalem: Your origin and your birth are of the land of the Canaanites; your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. When Israel first entered the land, the king of Jerusalem was an Amorite. Joshua 10:5 Then the five kings of the Amorites, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon, gathered their forces and went up with all their armies and encamped against Gibeon and made war against it. After their defeat at Gibeon these 5 kings retreat and hide in a cave, where they are closed in, then released after their cities are taken and put to death themselves. However, Jerusalem was not cleared of its inhabitants by Benjamin and Judah, the Jebusites remained. It wasn't until David came along that Jerusalem was taken possession of. II Samuel 5:3 So all the elders of Israel came to the king at Hebron, and King David made a covenant with them at Hebron before the Lord, and they anointed David king over Israel. 4 David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years. 5 At Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months, and at Jerusalem he reigned over all Israel and Judah thirty-three years. 6 And the king and his men went to Jerusalem against the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land, who said to David, “You will not come in here, but the blind and the lame will ward you off”—thinking, “David cannot come in here.” 7 Nevertheless, David took the stronghold of Zion, that is, the city of David. 8 And David said on that day, “Whoever would strike the Jebusites, let him get up the water shaft to attack ‘the lame and the blind,’ who are hated by David's soul.” Therefore it is said, “The blind and the lame shall not come into the house.” 9 And David lived in the stronghold and called it the city of David. And David built the city all around from the Millo inward. 10 And David became greater and greater, for the Lord, the God of hosts, was with him. It does not say she is the mother of all harlotry, you are adding the all in there, it says she is the mother of harlots, which is what Ezekiel tells us in chapter 16, Jerusalem is a mother of harlots. Revelation 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes (harlots) and of earth's abominations.” Ezekiel 16:44 “Behold, everyone who uses proverbs will use this proverb about you: ‘Like mother, like daughter.’ Ezekiel 16: 48 As I live, declares the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done.

Well, mostly it is because of how chapter 12 ends. The very last part of chapter 12 should actually be the beginning of chapter 13, it was split up incorrectly by translators. I will post what I am talking about and underline the section that should start chapter 13. To illustrate what I mean I will post the first verse of 13 right after. Revelation 12: 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

Ok thanks for clarifying that for me. If I understand you correctly you see seals 2-4 as directly associated with the war on the saints. I agree that not many nations, if any, will come through unscathed. I just wasn't sure if you saw those seals as leading up to the war on the saints or directly associated with it, but I think I understand your position now. I have to take some time and consider that possibility. This is interesting to me. If the beast out of the sea is actually here already, then you see Revelation 12 as having already begun?

No, Jerusalem and her daughters are spoken of in Ezekiel 16 passage. Ezekiel 16:48 As I live, declares the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. Ezekiel 16 tells us that Jerusalem is a harlot, and a very unique harlot, it also tells us that her offenses (as well as her daughters offenses) are greater than Sodom and her daughters. We know of course what Sodom is infamous for, sexual immorality. Jerusalem (and her daughters) in this passage are said to be worse than Sodom, symbolically linking Jerusalem to Sodom as delineated in Revelation 11. The symbolic link to Egypt is in regards to idolatry where they first learned to dabble in foreign gods and never departed from that. This is spelled out in both chapters of Ezekiel 16 and 23. The purpose for bringing the Ezekiel 23 passage is two-fold. One because it speaks to the symbolic link to Egypt as far as the source of Israel's idolatry, and two because it points to the identity of the woman riding the beast in Revelation 17, which is Oholibah, Jerusalem.

Yes, but Israel is being dealt with by God in a very specific way. This is in part because the Lord blinded them so that all could be included in the covenant. All the way back to Genesis you can find there is an everlasting covenant made with them, but in the course of time God had to address their disobedience in breaking the covenant, that is what the 70 weeks were all about. So first look at this passage from Ezekiel, in which the everlasting covenant and the atonement are brought together. Ezekiel 16:59 “For thus says the Lord God: I will deal with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant, 60 yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you take your sisters, both your elder and your younger, and I give them to you as daughters, but not on account of the covenant with you. 62 I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the Lord, 63 that you may remember and be confounded, and never open your mouth again because of your shame, when I atone for you for all that you have done, declares the Lord God.” So then the issue is resolving the timing on when these things take place. Isaiah 27:7 Has he struck them as he struck those who struck them? Or have they been slain as their slayers were slain? 8 Measure by measure, by exile you contended with them; he removed them with his fierce breath in the day of the east wind. 9 Therefore by this the guilt of Jacob will be atoned for, and this will be the full fruit of the removal of his sin: when he makes all the stones of the altars like chalkstones crushed to pieces, no Asherim or incense altars will remain standing. Isaiah 27:12 In that day from the river Euphrates to the Brook of Egypt the Lord will thresh out the grain, and you will be gleaned one by one, O people of Israel. 13 And in that day a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and those who were driven out to the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain at Jerusalem. God bless

Israel though did something the other nations did not, they were God's faithless bride as Ezekiel spelled out in chapter 16. There is also Ezekiel 23 to consider as well. Here are a few snippets from that chapter, again, another chapter you should really read over in total. Ezekiel 23 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother. 3 They played the whore in Egypt; they played the whore in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and their virgin bosoms handled. 4 Oholah was the name of the elder and Oholibah the name of her sister. They became mine, and they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem. Ezekiel 23:36 The Lord said to me: “Son of man, will you judge Oholah and Oholibah? Declare to them their abominations. 37 For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands. With their idols they have committed adultery, and they have even offered up to them for food the children whom they had borne to me. 38 Moreover, this they have done to me: they have defiled my sanctuary on the same day and profaned my Sabbaths. 39 For when they had slaughtered their children in sacrifice to their idols, on the same day they came into my sanctuary to profane it. And behold, this is what they did in my house. Ezekiel 23:43 “Then I said of her who was worn out by adultery, ‘Now they will continue to use her for a whore, even her!’ 44 For they have gone in to her, as men go in to a prostitute. Thus they went in to Oholah and to Oholibah, lewd women! 45 But righteous men shall pass judgment on them with the sentence of adulteresses, and with the sentence of women who shed blood, because they are adulteresses, and blood is on their hands.” 46 For thus says the Lord God: “Bring up a vast host against them, and make them an object of terror and a plunder. 47 And the host shall stone them and cut them down with their swords. They shall kill their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses. 48 Thus will I put an end to lewdness in the land, that all women may take warning and not commit lewdness as you have done. 49 And they shall return your lewdness upon you, and you shall bear the penalty for your sinful idolatry, and you shall know that I am the Lord God.”

I'm guessing you didn't read Ezekiel 16 lol. Ok, so here is where it speaks about Jerusalem and her daughters in comparison to her sisters and their daughters, it does not say mother of harlots specifically but does include Jerusalem's daughters. Ezekiel 16:30 “How sick is your heart, declares the Lord God, because you did all these things, the deeds of a brazen prostitute, 31 building your vaulted chamber at the head of every street, and making your lofty place in every square. Yet you were not like a prostitute, because you scorned payment. 32 Adulterous wife, who receives strangers instead of her husband! 33 Men give gifts to all prostitutes, but you gave your gifts to all your lovers, bribing them to come to you from every side with your whorings. 34 So you were different from other women in your whorings. No one solicited you to play the whore, and you gave payment, while no payment was given to you; therefore you were different. Ezekiel 16:44 “Behold, everyone who uses proverbs will use this proverb about you: ‘Like mother, like daughter.’ 45 You are the daughter of your mother, who loathed her husband and her children; and you are the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and their children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite. 46 And your elder sister is Samaria, who lived with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you, is Sodom with her daughters. 47 Not only did you walk in their ways and do according to their abominations; within a very little time you were more corrupt than they in all your ways. 48 As I live, declares the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. 49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it. 51 Samaria has not committed half your sins. You have committed more abominations than they, and have made your sisters appear righteous by all the abominations that you have committed. 52 Bear your disgrace, you also, for you have intervened on behalf of your sisters. Because of your sins in which you acted more abominably than they, they are more in the right than you. So be ashamed, you also, and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous. 53 “I will restore their fortunes, both the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters, and the fortunes of Samaria and her daughters, and I will restore your own fortunes in their midst, 54 that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all that you have done, becoming a consolation to them. 55 As for your sisters, Sodom and her daughters shall return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former state, and you and your daughters shall return to your former state. 56 Was not your sister Sodom a byword in your mouth in the day of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered? Now you have become an object of reproach for the daughters of Syria and all those around her, and for the daughters of the Philistines, those all around who despise you. 58 You bear the penalty of your lewdness and your abominations, declares the Lord.

I think there is a distinct difference between earthly Jerusalem and Zion, His holy city. There are quite a few issues with the conventional wisdom in regards to Jerusalem that exists right now. For one, we know that there are some major earthquakes that occur at the end, and those quakes have a direct impact on that city. There are also these events that tells us the land will be forever changed. Isaiah 24:10 The wasted city is broken down; every house is shut up so that none can enter. 11 There is an outcry in the streets for lack of wine; all joy has grown dark; the gladness of the earth is banished. 12 Desolation is left in the city; the gates are battered into ruins. 13 For thus it shall be in the midst of the earth among the nations, as when an olive tree is beaten, as at the gleaning when the grape harvest is done. Deuteronomy 32:43 “Rejoice with him, O heavens; bow down to him, all gods, for he avenges the blood of his children and takes vengeance on his adversaries. He repays those who hate him and cleanses his people's land.” This is the kingdom of the Lord, which will be set up by Him. Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.” John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”