asper

Thank you Asper!! To be Honest, I don't know what the Word is. It's more than just words in a book as there is power in those words to change things and bring them to pass being what God had said.. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Jesus Name is called the Word of God. That is not Jesus being the Word, but called that. Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. Jesus called the Word My word, then said he only speaks what he hears God speak (The Word) He later goes with the disciples and Confirms (The Word) Not his Word, or confirms himself, but upholds what was spoken. Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. God magnified his Word above his name. The indication that what he has spoken being greater than him. Later he Exalts Jesus and gives him all things (Exalts him and calls him God in Heb) In all that Jesus was given, he gave to us being Joint Heirs with him in Equal portion. Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Jesus came with a sword, the Word of God. (Matt 10:34) He said not send peace, but SEND a sword. The Word is also alive (Quick KJV) Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. The Word comes from the mouth of God, it is a sword. (Rev 1:16) (Isa 1:20) (Rev 9:15) The Word upholds all things. The air we breath, keeps the planets from smashing into each other, gravity, everything. It is the glue (Science calls the missing Higgs particle) that keeps the universe together. Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; AMP upholding and maintaining and guiding and propelling the universe by His mighty word of power. What he speaks stands fast, never fails. One scripture that needs looked at............ Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. The KJV repeats twice the Word was with God. It says the Word was God. No other scripture says the Word was God as I gave that the Word is............. Alive Sword Spoken Upholds all things Powerful in several places. Missing a comparitve scripture that the Word is Actually God, we can't take one scripture and interpret it by itself. False doctrines are started this way as we must read the Word comparing spiritual with spiritual, line upon line. Precept upon precept and not ignore the rest of the scriptures. The Lord went with them confirming the Word. We have way to many scriptures that seperate to take one out of context. The CEV says............................ The Word was with God and was truly God. The conclusion I have is that God is the same as his Word. He is defined by his Word. There would be nothing else to define God by. How that works spiritually and what the whole relationship is I don't know. I know if God said it, I believe it, and he is no respecter of persons. Be blessed. Thank you believeinhim, Sorry I haven’t responded sooner but I am a very busy person. I do not believe that the Word is the Father. Net Bible has it as follows, 1 In the beginning[1] was the Word, and the Word was with God,[2] and the Word was fully God.[3] John 1:1 (NET1) 3 tn Or “and what God was the Word was.” Colwell's Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (theos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell's Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell's Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb. A definite meaning for the term is reflected in the traditional rendering “the word was God.” From a technical standpoint, though, it is preferable to see a qualitative aspect to anarthrous θεός in John 1:1c (ExSyn 266-69). Translations like the NEB, REB, and Moffatt are helpful in capturing the sense in John 1:1c, that the Word was fully deity in essence (just as much God as God the Father). However, in contemporary English “the Word was divine” (Moffatt) does not quite catch the meaning since “divine” as a descriptive term is not used in contemporary English exclusively of God. The translation “what God was the Word was” is perhaps the most nuanced rendering, conveying that everything God was in essence, the Word was too. This points to unity of essence between the Father and the Son without equating the persons. However, in surveying a number of native speakers of English, some of whom had formal theological training and some of whom did not, the editors concluded that the fine distinctions indicated by “what God was the Word was” would not be understood by many contemporary readers. Thus the translation “the Word was fully God” was chosen because it is more likely to convey the meaning to the average English reader that the Logos (which “became flesh and —took up residence among us” in John 1:14 and is thereafter identified in the Fourth Gospel as Jesus) is one in essence with God the Father. The previous phrase, “the Word was with God,” shows that the Logos is distinct in person from God the Father. sn And the Word was fully God. John's theology consistently drives toward the conclusion that Jesus, the incarnate Word, is just as much God as God the Father. This can be seen, for example, in texts like John 10:30 (“The Father and I are one”), 17:11 (“so that they may be one just as we are one”), and 8:58 (“before Abraham came into existence, I am”). The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”); rather it affirms that the Word and God are one in essence. —NET Bible Notes - First Edition Robertson has it, And the Word was God (και θεος ην ο λογος). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying ο θεος ην ο λογος. That would mean that all of God was expressed in ο λογος~ and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article. The subject is made plain by the article (ο λογος) and the predicate without it (θεος) just as in #Joh 4:24 πνευμα ο θεος can only mean "God is spirit," not "spirit is God." So in #1Jo 4:16 ο θεος αγαπη εστιν can only mean "God is love," not "love is God" as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. For the article with the predicate see Robertson, Grammar, pp. 767f. So in #Joh 1:14 ο λογος σαρξ εγενετο, "the Word became flesh," not "the flesh became Word." Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality. Some verses to reflect on, John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; F. Y. I. Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. The reality of it is that we can only believe what is said. We cannot try to understand the infinite with our finite minds. Hopefully we can be honest with ourselves and have God show us what we need to know. Psalms 131:1 «A Song of degrees of David.» LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me. Good talking with you. Till next time.

Thank you asper...... My point was that the word was made, crafted, became flesh. What God says came to pass. He told us of a begotten son in Psalms, and the book of acts quotes Psalms. The Word became flesh. That does not remove deity as the flesh part could never be the eternal part. Jesus died on that cross, his flesh died. God's word can not die, it's eternal. Jesus did not just lay dead for 3 days. He went to Hell and preached without his flesh. When he was resurrected, he came back with a new flesh body. Just like we have as Jesus being the example. If you want to say Jesus is the Word of God then there is a scripture in REV that would be better suited. We still have scriptures that separate them though like in Mark 16 where he goes with confirming the word, not him confirming himself. However you want to look at it.... Bold Believer: Not sure why you want to drag on about things you know little about. You take the rest of the scripture rhetorical? You do believe that one can actually be born again, right? I would also suggest finding people who though faith and patience inherit the promises and see what they do. Jesus said if you believe it, and say it, it will come to pass. Bad or Good. Your tongue steers the course of your life. Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Hi believeinhim, Thank you for your response. My first impression from your previous post was that you were saying that the Word was not an entity. And now I am pretty sure that you are saying that the Word is not God but was or is created. Is that a correct assumption on my part? You can let me know when you get a chance. Philippians 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

the thing that struck me as funny was when you said the Word becomes mountains. do you worship mountains? it seems to me that you are trying to reduce the Word to meaning God's voice. doesn't that kind of take away from Jesus' diety? what would the jews at that time of understood john to be saying when he said the Word became flesh? perhaps this link will help. http://virtualreligion.net/iho/targum.html

Romans 6:12-13 KJV Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Jeremiah 17:9 KJV The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Romans 3:10-12 KJV As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Sure looks like we are still capable of evil to me. I kind of see it this way. We are made righteous legally and in reality. Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. - 19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. - 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; - 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

i would have to say that beraing fruit is what comes natural to the born again Christian, the same goes for resisting sin and growing in Christ. Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. it is given unto us. Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. there are alot of people preaching the salvation from death but they never mention the part that causes death. i would call this easy believism. Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. certain things come with being saved. kind of like "if it isn't breathing it probably isn't alive". 2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Mt 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. either you are or your not, that's my take on it anyway

the use of the word worm has been used before refering to mankind, Isa 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

That was written in reference to hopos me. I don't know what you're asking. asper, I think you might benefit from joining the B-Greek mailing list where you can ask your questions to highly qualified experts. hi hh, actually i think i will join that group. it seems like i could have some very interesting discussions. but have you indeed read all of them? it would seem that some would suggest it leaning toward the infinitive. http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek...ril/025244.html http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek...ril/025248.html http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek...ril/025251.html to name a few. other then that i will do some more research. evidently from what i gathered from these posts that the "new" experts changed the meaning. i didn't even get the memo?

Thanks for the reply, Eric. What about 1 Corinthians 12:3? "Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit." Does this mean that confessing Christ neccessarily involves a changed heart? hi hh. I don't know who they are who brought this riddle up to you but it is pretty silly to think that just because someone has a couple of facts that they can come to a conclusion.. The facts must be correct and they must be able to properly interpret those facts. It is certainly dangerous to just have two. Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Notice the word should confess. It is the subjunctive mood. It is the mood of possibility and potentiality. It does not say that they will. Also they are not considering the rest of the facts.. I.e. the rest of the Bible. Or they would see that true intent of the heart is needed. Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. The other thing that is assumed was that someone who is caused to speak something is saved or even sincere. Is that really true? Do we have any evidence for that? John 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. 53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

you have had multiple people come in here and try and explain that your postings are not coherent. It is nothing personal against you, it is a fact about your thread. I am sorry if the truth hurts your feelings, but I really dont think you want me to lie to you, do you? actually i find his posts very informative. if you need help in understanding some point i will be glad to help...

The first response didn't answer my question. In response to this, again I ask why you admittedly use versions from the heretical texts, as you put it. and i answered that... i suggest you read the very post you are questioning... its right there at least PART of the text is there, so i dont throw the baby out with the bathwater, and i even use the greek and hebrew to get a better understanding PLUS i educate myself on the corruption, which i suggest everyone do and you didnt answer MY questions... id expect this from someone insisting i answer his TWICE Which questions would those be? The ones where you insulted my intelligence or the ones in which you asked whether I had read your infallible sources or not? So now youre not just not reading the material, the sources and quootes, youre not even reading my posts lol try post 51 just a few posts above you ^^^ those questions Your answer was given MANY posts before as well: I trust the inherent content of the Scriptures, which is imparted through the various translations. Fact is, it cannot be proven conclusively that one translation is superior to another without the original documents available. Do I trust that God would preserve His Word? absolutely. Do I trust that the essential aspects of God's Word are preserved? Yes, absolutely. Am I going to concern myself with which translation is the most accurate and true to the original documents? Absolutely not. Frankly that's just a waste of time, energy, and to me amounts to "searching the Scriptures," with the belief that in them is eternal life. interesting answer, but then it is only your opinion am i right? you have nothing to offer as facts. perhaps you can quote something from the the Word of God that would back up your opinion. or perhaps you can bring some evidence from some source to refute what he has presented. so to take this a step further, it isn't ok for him to have an opinion with facts but it's ok for you to have an opinion without facts..???

hi fez, i can see your point but we do still need to know what is going on around us. Acts 9:29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. 30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus. 2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: 15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. 1 Chronicles 14:8 And when the Philistines heard that David was anointed king over all Israel, all the Philistines went up to seek David. And David heard of it, and went out against them. 9 And the Philistines came and spread themselves in the valley of Rephaim. 10 And David enquired of God, saying, Shall I go up against the Philistines? and wilt thou deliver them into mine hand? And the LORD said unto him, Go up; for I will deliver them into thine hand. here is a interesting link http://www.cuttingedge.org/news_updates/newsupdatemain.html

Psalms 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness. there is assurance but it certainly isn't easy. Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. "find" not earn it. Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. if we are born again we certainly will overcome, 1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. beiong born of God is the key. it is then assured. Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31

Hi everyone, I read through most of the posts and thought I would jump in and give my opinions. Like it or not. One thing I noticed is the attempt of the works crowd to make works of faith = the works of the law. James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Just curious, which law was that again? Does it say anything about keeping the law. I don

Hi tsth, Mark 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? 14 The sower soweth the word. 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word

notice regeneration. Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; it seems to me that the we place our trust in is the one that delivers us. 2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Hi pilgrim7, Interesting response. But whether she is trusting in herself or trusting in Jesus Christ in her heart is not for me to determine. I cannot see the heart. It seems to me that someone who has their doctrine strait can also be trusting in themselves. In the same way someone who doesn

sorry i got a little messed up with the edit posts

i kind of stick with calvin on this issue. although God saves His elect that does not mean others are not commanded to come. they will not come, nor do they have a desire to come. quote from calvin [see CALBOOK 04040] We said yesterday that the Prophet denounced future calamities, that he might thus stimulate men, distressed by many evils, to seek God: we indeed know how tardy we are by nature, except the Lord goads us continually. The subject, then, on which we discoursed yesterday tended to show, that as so many and so grievous calamities would press on the Jews, all would be miserable who fled not to God, and that this consolation only would remain to them in their extreme evils: but now the Prophet seasonably adds, Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered. Having then stimulated men to seek God, he now gives them firm assurance of being saved, provided they in sincerity and from the heart fled to God. This is indeed a remarkable passage, for God declares that the invocation of his name in a despairing condition is a sure port of safety. What the Prophet had said was certainly dreadful,

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man