America in scripture

[Celt]

Is this part of the british/israelite theology? I was talking with someone just this week about the two sticks of Judah and Israel in Eze. With Ephraim not being named in the twelve tribes in Rev. and the stick of Joesph is in Ephraims hands would that be then the these are the other sheep that Christ brings with Him?

You don't see the term "British/Israel" in any of those Scriptures do you? If not, then why is there a tendency to label it so?

It would be impossible to understand about the two sticks prophecy in Ezek.37 without first understanding about the split of old Israel into two separate kingdoms. Like I said, this requires discplined Bible study, while not listening to the doubters out there who don't know.

Even though Ephraim is not mentioned in the list of Rev.7, Joseph and Manasses (Manassah) still are, representing where God's birthright rested in final per 1 Chronicles 5. In Ezek.48, Ephraim is put back in final.

God's Word covers a lot of things many don't realize. But our Heavenly Father won't reveal those things to the deceived and those who lack discipline in His Word, and that have doubt (James 1:5-8). So understanding all this requires the right attitude from the start while asking Him for understanding.

Note what's said in the the following Scripture...

Gen 49:1-2

1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

2 Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father.

(KJV)

That whole Genesis 49 chapter is about the twelve tribes of Israel, and what would befall them "in the last days". Not doubting God's Word there as written, it has to then mean the twelve tribes of Israel still exist on earth even today. It's the same for the list of twelve tribes of Israel given in Rev.7.

Man may not know who or where they all are today, but those Scriptures show our Lord definitely knows, and He has allowed us to understand that He knows they are all still here on earth in the last days just prior to His coming. Even per Jewish history, the Jews came from only three tribes, that of Judah, Benjamin, and a portion of Levi. And they were called the house of Judah in God's Word. So with our Lord mentioning the other tribes in Revelation 7, that is showing us their existence on earth in the last days.

Some believe Ephraim is not in the Rev.7 list because of falling away in the last days. There's Scripture about their falling away in the past, along with Dan. (Note the tribe of Dan is not listed there either, but are listed in Ezekiel 48 in final, along with Ephraim). So no, this above part has nothing to do with the brethren that have already died that our Lord Jesus will bring back with Him when He comes.

Christ's coming and bringing the saints who have died, back with Him when He comes, does have to do with the event at Ezek.48, which is the restoration of all the twelve tribes into the kingdom like that of old Israel again. It will include the saints that have died in Christ Jesus, and the believers on Christ from the twelve tribes of Israel and of the Gentiles that are still alive on earth at Christ's gathering.

Amos 9:8-12

8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.

9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, "The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us."

11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by My name, saith the LORD That doeth this.

(KJV)

The "house of Jacob" is put for all twelve tribes of Israel. The "house of Israel" means only the ten tribes of Israel that made up the northern kingdom. Those ten tribes were never called Jews, because they represent the other tribes of Israel. In final, God is saying He will sift the house of Israel (ten tribes) from among all nations, and not even the least grain will fall upon the ground (earth). That means He knows where they all are on earth in the last days, while man may not know. The closing up of the breaches is about the joining of the two sticks of Ezek.37 back together in the Holy Land, which is what God means by the restoration of old Israel, like in David's days. That clearly has not happenned yet today, for it's only the house of Judah that's going back to the Holy Land today, the ones called Jews.

The last verses of Amos 9 speak of Israel possessing the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen which are called by God's Name. The heathen is simply put for Gentiles, and the remnant of Edom as a remnant of believers on The Savior. That event of their being joined with Israel back to the Holy Land certainly has not happenned today, because one joining with the Jews in the nation state of Israel today must prove their geneaology among the Jews. What that verse is pointing to is the new name Christ mentioned in Revelation 2:17 and 3:12, of believers on Him as God's promised Saviour, of both believing Israelites and Gentiles. The majority of the Jews in the Holy Land today still refuse Christ Jesus as God's Promised Saviour.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Celt

[Guest yod]

The 2 stick Ephramite baloney is derived from British Israelism.

This is just hooey.

[mizzdy]

You don't see the term "British/Israel" in any of those Scriptures do you? If not, then why is there a tendency to label it so?

Sorry didn't mean any harm, it was a knee jerk reaction to something I have been trying to refute to some members of my family for years.

[Celt]

In Ezekiel 37, God gave a prophecy about the restoration of Israel of all the tribes. He made a very simple distinction between the two houses of Israel and who each house represents. He then assigned the two houses to two separate sticks, and, then told Ezekiel to take the two sticks, and join them together. He told Ezekiel to make sure the people saw him put the two sticks in his hand back together. And when the people asked Ezekiel what that meant, he was to tell them what God gave him to say...

Ezek 37:18-28

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, "Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?"

19 Say unto them, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

Note the clear distinction there between one stick of "Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows", and the other stick, "the stick of Judah". That shows to God, the lost ten tribes are not really lost today, but still are in the hand of Ephraim, and put for the stick of his father Joseph. This is so easy a first grader could understand it.

Ezek.37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.

24 And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

(KJV)

Everything in bold above is our Heavenly Father speaking.

The two sticks prophecy is from our Heavenly Father. And it marks the existence of the other tribes being joined back to the Holy Land along with Judah, under one KING (Christ Jesus), and David as our prince, forever. The old inheritences of the land are to be put back according to each tribe (Ezek.48).

But the doubters out there will always exist today, but not when The LORD brings His Words there to pass. They certainly won't be doubting then. And as long as they doubt His written Word, they probably won't be there among us.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Celt

[nebula]

Celt is into the Ephraimite doctrine?

Well, that explains a lot.....

[Celt]

You don't see the term "British/Israel" in any of those Scriptures do you? If not, then why is there a tendency to label it so?

Sorry didn't mean any harm, it was a knee jerk reaction to something I have been trying to refute to some members of my family for years.

No problem. I don't know what all is contained in that theology anyway. It's better to stick to God's Word as written, and grow with what our Lord gave us. If His Word points to the house of Israel still existing on earth in the last days, still in the hand of Ephraim but still apart from Judah, which It clearly does per the Scripture evidence I quoted, then that's simply how it is, regardless of what a doubter may want us to believe.

[Celt]

Something to consider when studying God's Word on this matter for today.

The Scripture like Ezekiel 37 is clear that it's mentioning the house of Israel as still separate from the house of Judah (Jews) all the way up to the time when God will put the two sticks back together under Christ, and David our prince. Revelation 7 is also mentioning the 12 tribes of Israel in the last days, as Genesis 49 does also. Our Heavenly Father in Amos 9 also gave us that kind of distinction about the other tribes of Israel in the last days being gathered back to the lands of promise along with believing Gentiles on The Savior.

So why then, would doubters not want those Scriptures understood today? What kind of plan are the non-believers who refuse Christ Jesus making for the Holy Land today? It should be noticed that today, the majority of the Jews in the Holy Land have still refused Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Saviour. Only a small remnant of them have accepted Jesus as The Christ, The Messiah. The rest are still waiting for a type of first coming of The Savior, even though Christ's first coming happenned over 2000 years ago. And an orthodox Jewish remnant is planning to build a third Temple, and reinstitute the Old Covenant Levitical priesthood along with animal scarifices, which is an abomination to our Lord since The New Covenant has already come through His death on the cross.

There's not a call for Gentile believers on Christ Jesus to be joined in the Holy Land today by the nation state of Israel, nor a call for any other than Jews. Jewish history records that they came from only the three tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and not the other tribes of Israel. Yet the Revelation 7, Genesis 49, Amos 9, and Ezekiel 37 Scripture point to the existence of all the twelve tribes in the last days, and all the twelve tribes of Israel eventually being joined back to the Holy Land in final, to the original inheritences, ALONG WITH BELIEVING GENTILES.

What should we understand today about that difference? Firstly, the name of this website is "Worthy Christian Forums". So CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE is what this website is supposed... to be about. But it appears the Scripture examples I've given here upset some, when it is most definitely about Christian doctrine involving Christ's future Kingdom to come on earth. And that involves both the saved of believing Israel and of believing Gentiles, joined together back in the lands of promise, the Holy Land. It goes with what the apostle Paul taught in the Book of Romans about Christ's Salvation to both the believers of Israel and Gentile believers, Christ's Body as one. And the Book of Romans is a foundational Book of Christianity.

Is the condition of today's nation state Israel what we Christians are looking for then as Christ's Salvation? No. But our hope is that all of Israel will come to Christ Jesus and accept Him as God's Promised Savior of the Old Testament prophets. It certainly does not mean instituting animal sacrifices again, nor following the Old Covenant ritual system.

In Matthew 19, Christ's Apostles asked what would be their reward for following Him. He told them they each would sit upon a throne judging over the twelve tribes of Israel. In Revelation 21:12 we are told about the wall with twelve gates of New Jerusalem, which have the names of the twelve tribes written on them. And in that wall's foundation stones are the names of the twelve Apostles of The Lamb (Jesus Christ).

So clearly, there's a major contrast between today's Jerusalem and the New Jerusalem that is to come under Christ Jesus. But beware, because Christ's enemies will try to make us believe that His Kingdom has already come today, when anyone reading God's Word for theirself can easily see it has not. I will wait for Christ's coming and the changes on earth that are to occur as written with His coming, and our gathering to Him. But to accept the Holy Land as that Salvation today is a grave error for us Christians, especially with the idea of a third Temple being built to advance the Old Covenant system of worship again.

[Sion]

Is there any mention anywhere in scripture of the US?

There is a mention of America in Isaiah chapter 24 and chapter 34. Also a mention in Revelation 11.

Isaiah 34

1 Come near, you nations, to hear; And heed, you people! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, The world and all things that come forth from it.

2 For the indignation of the Lord is against all nations, And His fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to the slaughter.

3 Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

Isaiah 24

1 Behold, the Lord makes the earth empty and makes it waste, Distorts its surface And scatters abroad its inhabitants.

2 And it shall be: As with the people, so with the priest; As with the servant, so with his master; As with the maid, so with her mistress; As with the buyer, so with the seller; As with the lender, so with the borrower; As with the creditor, so with the debtor.

3 The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered, For the Lord has spoken this word.

4 The earth mourns and fades away, The world languishes and fades away; The haughty people of the earth languish.

5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed the laws, Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant.

6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, And few men are left.

Revelation 11

6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

10 -------- because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

[Celt]

Yeah, I guess you're right Sion, no nation on earth is going to survive the consumption by fire which God is going to bring upon the earth to wipe man's works off it, especially the area of today's Jerusalem, since that's where ground zero is going to be where false messiah will do his false works from, even the killing of God's "two witnesses".