Ugh, you're so close-minded

[Gauntlet]

God will not improve your luck stat.

All of a sudden you're talking about Him as though He didn't exist. Without God, who would you blame all your problems on?

[Guest Exhau]

I would propose that there is a reality independant of and separated from human logic. Human logic is imperfect, as the nature of this discussion illustrates.

Extraordinary claims, extraordinary evidence. Logic is a method used to solve problems. The discussion we're having seems to indicate that humans are imperfect. And as the result, we have imperfect ideas. Such as gods. But logic has yet to fail in its purpose, which is determining answers to questions.

All of a sudden you're talking about Him as though He didn't exist. Without God, who would you blame all your problems on?

I blame my problems on myself, or luck. Hence the comment. I blame good fortune on the same; which I blame what on depends on the situation.

[Gauntlet]

But logic has yet to fail in its purpose, which is determining answers to questions.

Is there a question which logic fails to answer or are you putting me on?

[Guest shiloh357]

Okay. I'm totally cool with that. Believers in any religion draw comfort from it. In fact, one of the major claims again religion is that its believers ignore reality in favor of this comfort. It's not one I'm very fond of because it's so personal and it avoids the issue entirely.

The trend to use faith as a source of strength is seen in all cultures, though.

A slight correction: In Christianity, it is Jesus, not our faith, that is the source of our strength.

Well, you have exactly zero evidence for that. Especially seeing as this phenomenon is observed in believers of many religions, including those which ignore Jesus completely. There is no discernible difference between the effect faith in a higher power has on you, a Muslim, a Hindi, or a Wiccan.

Quite a bit of difference, actually. They are putting their faith in their efforts, we are not. Our faith is in a person, not a religion, or a system of performance-based acceptance. In other religions, they are seeking truth, they are slaves to an endliess cycle of rituals, chants, repititious prayers, and meditations. They are constantly seeking the never ending chore of trying to offset their bad works with good deeds in the hopes that they will achieve the desired result in the end. Far from having in really assurance or peace, they are constantly seeking what is seemingly so elusive and what Christians have as a free gift from God.

As Christians, our faith is entirely based on one event. The entire Christian faith stands or falls on the resurrection of Jesus. If the resurrection did not happen, then the entire Bible and the entire Christian faith immediately becomes worthless and must be abandoned.

It's all based on Jesus, not on trying to achieve perfection or some other futile endeavor. In Christ our assurance is set. It is not based on what we do or don't do, but on what He did on the cross. All of mankind is under a death sentence because all of mankind in born into sin. Jesus' death satisfied God's justice on our behalf and the gift of eternal life is offered to man freely based on the work Jesus accomplished in dying for mankind.

When born again, we are justified or declared just by God on the basis of Jesus' righteousness. In effect, His righteousness is credited to us as a result of our putting faith in Him as Savior. Unlike other religions where there is no assurance that you have done enough good deeds, been a good enough person, the Bible is very clear: You are not good enough, and nothing you do no matter how grandiose it appears in your eyes will be enough to offset your sin. Only Jesus can cleanse and remove the stain of sin from the human heart. Many other religions don't even recognize that such a condition even exists, much less, offer a solution for it.

The Bible says that we can know beyond any doubt that we have etenal life (1 John 5: 1-13, John 5:24, Eph. 1:4,5). Our assurance stems from the fact, that our eternal life doesn't depend on us, but on God alone. He is the guarantor. He is the one who keeps us and sustains us. No other religion can say that.

[Guest Exhau]

But logic has yet to fail in its purpose, which is determining answers to questions.

Is there a question which logic fails to answer or are you putting me on?

There is no question which can be answered utterly and finally. But in the same way we can't give exact numerical answers to "x +y = 1" we can't answer all questions with the current amount of information we have. Even so, we can avoid answers which contradict the info we do have, or useless answers.

Tools each have ideal situations in which they are used, is all.

[fireproof_always]

Both sides get credit for valid points as far as I'm concerned. I've not really been commenting much, but I've been mostly following the progression of the debate. I do have a minor problem with what's starting to occur. I find it counterproductive for one to say "define God" because even a nonbeliever must realize that we who believe necessarily hold to be true that God is above our ability to understand, and thus describe. You're basically asking that they do something they don't believe in or deem possible. Also, to say that God is not necessary for certain things like love and compassion, while perhaps your view, is the opposite for those who believe that these things are possible only because man is the image of God.

[Gauntlet]

If logic alone were sufficient, why is the world still in such a mess?

[Gauntlet]

If logic alone were sufficient, why is the world still in such a mess?

I hope the irony in that statement is intentional.....

If logic was the only thing that had ever been used and the world was still in such a mess, then you would have a valid question. Maybe if logic was all that had ever been used then the world wouldn't be in such a mess.

Let me ask you a similar question, if God is of infinite power and goodness then surely even the smallest measure would be enough to stop this finite world becoming such a mess. The fact that it is a mess would indicate that God is either not infinite in power and goodness or that there is not even the smallest measure of His involvement in the world.

You forget that this world is not the Paradise it might have been. Sin exists and evil is real.

[MorningGlory]

Extraordinary claims, extraordinary evidence. Logic is a method used to solve problems. The discussion we're having seems to indicate that humans are imperfect. And as the result, we have imperfect ideas. Such as gods. But logic has yet to fail in its purpose, which is determining answers to questions.

I have to disagree; your logic has utterly failed you. You didn't find answers that are obvious to anyone who isn't blind.

[Murse32]

I see the word "logic" being used as if it were someone's last name. If people were so adimant about logic being made triumphant, than people would have to be honest with themselves. Logic triumphs when honesty is in place, not using one's predetermined thought process to prove logic and or make logic.

If that doesn't make sense to some, let me give an example. Anyone ever read the book "Angels and Demons" by Dan Brown? Well, though it's a fun fictional book to read, Brown did a fantastic job in his search for using real life in the basis of his book. In his book we see the company CERN as the foundation for the story. What many might not know, is that CERN is a real company. In the book brown paints a picture of the Physicists trying to create "antimatter". I challenge all of you to investigate CERN and watch carefully what they are doing...They are trying to do just this. Their reason? To prove that creation can happen from nothing. Where logic escapes these individuals is that in order to do this, they are spending billions of dollars trying to create this "something from nothing". They are using machinery known as "LHC" Large Hadron Collider. This machine enables these physicists to study the smallest particles. To give one a visual, CERN explains that the Atom, which used to be thought to be the smallest matter, is nothing now. If we were to take an atom and make it a model the size the of earth, the protons and neutrons that make up the nucleus would be about the size of an olympic stadium. Take that same earth size atom, and we find what scientist call "quarks" which would be the size of a tennis ball.

The logic though, still escapes them. Trying so desperately to prove that life could have happened by chance...that they are becoming lost in their own maze. They find more and more. These are the highest, most thought of brains in our world...These are the most intelligent individuals man has to offer...and whats their goal? to prove life exists and it exists NOT because of intelligent design...Anyone see the irony in that? These same brilliant men, still have issues creating from nothing.