Bread of Life is Hard to Swallow

[OneLight]

Yes. Do we? No, for we are not perfect.

But, when you and i read

From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

(Matthew 4)

does this mean that Jesus Himself needed to repent of some sin?

No, Jesus was perfect in every way. Jesus is the spotless Lamb given for sacrifice. Jesus is also part of the Godhead, or Trinity, being the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

I wholeheartedly agree! So, do you see, now, that the words, "I am the bread of life," do NOT apply to what Jesus said, but instead, to who Jesus is?

What Jesus said and what He did is who He is. You can not separate the two.

[socrates4jesus]

Grace to you,

Soc,

I don't need to go there, I've been there, I lived a life in Lifeless Religion and God Saved me.

Are you sure your minds not made up?

The reason I ask is that you came on here seeking Truth but have ruled out everything everyone has asked you to examine and then began pushing the stuff that your Catholic friends have given you.

At the same time you keep quoting Socrates search for Truth. However Socrates didn't know Jesus and Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I don't think Socrates would know the Truth if he met Him, personally, and I'm not at all interested in Philosophy because I have met the Truth and He has set me Free.

Here's a noteworthy statement;

"Where will we turn when all that remains is God on His Throne with a child in His arms and Love in His eyes?"

Peace,

Dave

Socrates was like the John the Baptist to the Greeks. He reasoned, quite eloquently, that there was only one God who was the source of all Wisdom. True, He did not know Jesus was the One True God, but neither did John the Baptist until he saw the Holy Spirit descend on Him like a dove.

No, my mind is not made up, but are you willing to give me good reason to make up my mind by, "not going there"? I'm not finding any fault with you, i just hoped i'd be shown the truth about Christ's words in John's gospel.

May God give you Wisdom in abundance, Dave!

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

(James 1:5)

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Returning to Catholicism is a choice that you are making and it has nothing to do with the merits of anything we said or did not say. It's a nice way to frame a wonderful little well knit box though.

It's ironic that because we can't supply you with what you define as the Truth that you would state that someone else would have it. Whne the Truth is as plainly available to you as it is to us. We will all find that Truth in Christ and not in some denominations depiction of Him.

Jesus said this;

Lu

[OneLight]

They were unable to trap [Jesus] in what he had said there in public. And astonished by his answer, they became silent.

(Luke 20:26)

My fear is that the silence of everyone is confirmation that the Catholics are correct. I really don't want to return to Catholicism, but as Socrates said

... the unexamined life is not worth living ...

(Apology)

Your assumption is incorrect. I am trying, and have done my best, to show you that what the Catholics believe is false (and for the record, I was brought up in a Roman Catholic church), without taking this thread into a Catholic bashing event.

One thing that does raise a question in your posts is why do you keep referring to Socrates? The Holy Spirit is He who should be working in you to guide you, not Socrates.

[Guest]

The Truth Is Always Jesus And About Trusting In HIM......

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

And The Bible Always Tells The Truth Whereas Men Often Won't

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." Revelation 21:5-7

And Some Men Even Bake Up Their Own Stuff And Call It The Words Of Life

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:3-6

Proclaiming Their Own Deeds Are Needed For Salvation

"But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." Revelation 2:6

Teaching Man's Traditions Trump God's Word

"So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate." Revelation 2:15

Bowing To Sinner Men

"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren."

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

"Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ." Matthew 23:8-10

Forgetting HE

"Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing." Revelation 5:12

Who Saves

"The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand."

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:35-36

>>>>>()<<<<<

There Are Many Pretenders

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

"And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." 1 John 2:15-18

But Only One Christ

"Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep."

"All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them."

"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." John 10:7-9

Believe Him

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" John 11:25

.... When i trust Him, doesn't that mean that i trust what He says? or can i trust Him and still not believe what He says?

Well! Jesus Is Clear On The Value Of Bread

"And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread."

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Matthew 4:3-4

And On The Value Of His Holy Word

"Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Mark 8:38

And We Know From The Word That It Is Jesus That Sanctifies Us

"And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."

1 John 2:28

And Even In 400 Year Old Elizabethan English The Record Is Crystal Clear

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."

"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

1 John 5:11-13

It Is God Given Faith In Jesus That Saves

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

"Not of works, lest any man should boast."

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Ephesians 2:8-10

(Even The Ancients Heard)

"Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith."

Habakkuk 2:4

And Wicked Unbelief

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

Hebrews 3:12

That Kills

"I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not."

Jude 1:5

>>>>>()<<<<<

Beloved Don't Trade Your Birthright

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3:3

For Twisted Doctrines

"Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Mark 7:7

And A Piece Of Crust

"And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom."

"And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright."

"And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob."

"Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright."

Genesis 25:30-34

Love, Joe

[nebula]

Hello, Socrates!

I am glad you asked for someone to mention John 6, because I was thinking of just that.

John 6:4 - Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.

Here is our first clue to the meaning of Jesus' sermon later on. Passover was coming soon. Do you remember something that Passover is famous for?

During Passover, the Jews eat unleavened bread. This has a double meaning. One meaning is that it is a remembrance for when their forefathers left Egypt in such haste there was no time for their bread to rise. The second meaning is that leaven (yeast) is symbolic of sin, and they are to partake of their "bread" (food, sustenance, God's provision, the fruit of the earth mixed with their labor) free from sin.

The next background for the sermon is that Jesus had just miraculously fed them with a multiplying of loaves and fishes. After Jesus left, the people searched for Him. When they found Him Jesus spoke thus:

26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "

Jesus just miraculously fed them, yet they still demand another sign of food!

32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always." 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

Does the phrase: "he who believes in Me shall never thirst" sound familiar? It should:

John 4

13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."

QUESTION: Do you take this statement literally? That when we drink of the "water" Jesus gives we have H2O fountains flowing inside of us? When we drink of Him, we have no more sensation of physical thirst?

SO, when Jesus said He is the Bread of Life, did He mean His body becomes physical bread anymore than His drink makes us no longer need to drink H2O?

Looking back at John 4 -

31 In the meantime His disciples urged Him, saying, "Rabbi, eat." 32 But He said to them, "I have food to eat of which you do not know." 33 Therefore the disciples said to one another, "Has anyone brought Him anything to eat?" 34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.

Was Jesus speaking of physical food then?

So let's go back to John 6:

47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

Is He talking about physical flesh-food-bread now?

How so, if not before, why now?

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Bingo! Jesus is telling them plainly that He is speaking in spiritual terms, not physical.

He is not advocating cannibalism of His physical body. (That goes against Scripture!)

The bread is spiritual food. His body, His flesh, the Bread of Life, are spiritual realities, not physical.

~~~~

Going back to the Passover reference:

What we call "The Last Supper" where Jesus broke the bread and gave the wine, saying, "This is My body," and "This is My blood," were elements of the Passover Seder meal.

For all those years, the Jews believed the Passover celebration was to remember their deliverance from Egypt. But what Jesus did that night was to tell them the true meaning of Passover:

His death on the cross for the sins of the world.

Just as Jesus being the "Lamb of God" does not mean He suddenly grew wool all over His body, so His body being "the bread" and His blood "the wine" does not mean the bread becomes flesh (epidermis, dermis, and hypodermis) and the wine does not become blood (plasma, erythrocytes, leukocytes, and platelets).

In other words, He was telling His disciples that the yeastless Passover bread (matzah) was not to be remembered by them as the rapid flight from Egypt of their forefathers, but was to be remembered as His sinless body broken on the cross. And the Passover wine was not to be remembered by them as the blood of the lambs placed on the doorposts when the angel of death passed over the homes of their forefathers, but it was to be remembered by them as His blood that was shed to atone for them.

Do you understand these things?

He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

[socrates4jesus]

Grace to you,

Returning to Catholicism is a choice that you are making and it has nothing to do with the merits of anything we said or did not say. It's a nice way to frame a wonderful little well knit box though.

It's ironic that because we can't supply you with what you define as the Truth that you would state that someone else would have it. Whne the Truth is as plainly available to you as it is to us. We will all find that Truth in Christ and not in some denominations depiction of Him.

Jesus said this;

Lu

[socrates4jesus]

Your assumption is incorrect. I am trying, and have done my best, to show you that what the Catholics believe is false (and for the record, I was brought up in a Roman Catholic church), without taking this thread into a Catholic bashing event. ...

Hi, OneLight!

It appears i gave up on you too soon the other night! My apologies. I'm certainly grateful for your efforts. My hope was (and still is) that someone will look at John, chapter 6 with me and explain why Jesus' words should be taken figuratively, but not literally. I assumed that you and Dave were unwilling to

always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have ...

(1 Peter 3:15)

Perhaps i was mistaken, and you are prepared to tell me the real meaning of Jesus' words in the 6th chapter of John's gospel. It this so?

Edited April 1, 2009 by socrates4jesus

[socrates4jesus]

One thing that does raise a question in your posts is why do you keep referring to Socrates? The Holy Spirit is He who should be working in you to guide you, not Socrates.

I happen to enjoy reading Plato's dialogs of Socrates. If you find something untrue in the words of his that i quoted, please let me know. Do you think a person should live an unexamined life?

[Believer1997]

Grace to you,

Soc,

I don't need to go there, I've been there, I lived a life in Lifeless Religion and God Saved me.

Are you sure your minds not made up?

The reason I ask is that you came on here seeking Truth but have ruled out everything everyone has asked you to examine and then began pushing the stuff that your Catholic friends have given you.

At the same time you keep quoting Socrates search for Truth. However Socrates didn't know Jesus and Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I don't think Socrates would know the Truth if he met Him, personally, and I'm not at all interested in Philosophy because I have met the Truth and He has set me Free.

Here's a noteworthy statement;

"Where will we turn when all that remains is God on His Throne with a child in His arms and Love in His eyes?"

Peace,

Dave

Exactly!!! Why would a Christian lean on the words of Socrates over those of Jesus? I do not understand... Blessings.