Bacteria Amaze

[OneLight]

Lorax ... I wonder, what parts of scripture do you believe in and what scripture do you hold as false?

[Guest shiloh357]

I don't know how Heaven can be Heaven for anyone with the knowledge that millions if not billions of people are in Hell. Think about it. How can you ever be at peace when your former companions endure intense, *unending* torment?

Well there is no evidence from Scripture that we will even remember them after death. While a case cannot be made that we will have NO memories of our lives here on earth, the Bible says:

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Revelation 21:4)

It is reasonable that in heaven, we will not be reminded of the sins we committed nor will we continue mull over those who chose to reject God.

QUOTE

Jesus said something very exclusive. He said: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no man comes to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) Man must come to God through Christ. All other religions that use any other means are not worshipping God nor is their worshipped received by God.

This is true. However, I do not rule out the possibility of postmortem redemption through Christ. Again, I believe the existence of an eternal hell is antithetical to the loving nature of God. You simply cannot have a loving God and eternal torment, just like you cannot have a square circle.

God is a loving God, and in love He has done all He can to make the way open to man to receive salvation. He offers man a free gift and says "whosover will may come." He will pardon and forgive anyone. "The vilest offender who truly believes, that moment from Jesus a pardon receives" as the old hymn says. The problem is that God has only provided one way which that mercy can be obtained through Christ. Salvation is by grace through faith, which would be impossible after death.

The Bible does not offer the possibility of a postmortem salvation. According to the Bible, judgment follows death. In fact, the Bible is very clear in the NT about what is going to happen:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

No mention is made of another chance. Once a person steps out into eternity, there is only one question, one issue that will matter: What did he/she do with Jesus Christ? A person can either die in grace or they can die under the law. But once you die, that is it. The choice you made in life will determine the kind of eternity you face in death.

If salvation is possible after death, why get saved now? Why not go ahead and live in as much sin and depravity as possible now? If salvation is possible after death anyway, there is no reason to pay any attention to God at all in this life. I could sin it up with as many women as I want in the assurance that after I die I will get another chance at salvation anyway. I can have my cake and eat it too.

Why preach the gospel now if there is a another way of salvation available after death? Sorry Lorax, but the Bible simply does not offer that option. The choice has to be made now.

Faith is not a sense of certainty. Faith engenders doubt.

Biblical faith does not engender doubt at all. Biblical faith is rooted in hope and that hope is grounded in the inspired Word and promises of an infallible God who cannot lie and cannot fail to bring His promises to pass. Biblical faith is the product of a living, dynamic relationship with God who indwells us in the person of the Holy Spirit who has sealed and continues to witness within us that we are the children of God.

If you have no certainty, then you have no hope and you certainly do not have faith. As Christians, we have "a know-so" salvation. In fact the Bible says we can know for certain we are saved. There are lots of things the Bible says we can know. The book of 1 John is a book of certainty. It uses the word "know" appears over 30 times in that epistle. Here are some things we can "know" for certain as a result of our faith:

1. A righteous life indicates salvation: (2:29; 5:18)

2. We shall be like Christ at His second coming (3:2)

3. Christ came to take away our sins ( 3:5)

4. We have eternal life (5:13)

5. Our prayes are answered (5:15)

6. He lives within us by the witness of the Holy Spirit. (3:24)

Just like free will requires the recognition of multiple choices, faith requires the recognition of multiple possibilities.

You really do not understand faith. The Bible says that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. What you are describing is not faith. Faith operates on an assurance of the truth. It does not operate from the notion from a lack of assurance.

If you've convinced yourself you are 100% right, beyond a shadow of a doubt, in any matter of faith, then you've mistaken yourself for God.

So, if we believe with complete, unswerving assurance that Jesus is the only to God according to the testimony of Scripture, we are playing God? Do you not see how absurd that assertion is?

What you are demonstrating by your own words and posts is that you are not REALLY a Christian. So far, from you have written in this thread, we can deduce that you believe:

1. Salvation can be found outside of Christ in other religions;

2. Salvation can be obtained after death;

3. The Bible is unreliable and is not wholly the Word of God.

4. Believing that Jesus is the only way to God is "fanatacism"

5. You reject the Bible's account of creation, the flood, etc.

So why do you call yourself a Christian? I mean, everything you claim to believe says while in some nominal way you mentally assent to what is basically and impotent version of "Christianity" that you have cut and pasted together to please yourself, you really do not embrace the biblical New Testament faith as represented in the Bible. So why do you bother trying to pretend you are a Chrisitian, when biblical Christianity is something that you clearly find offensive?

[nebula]

Last post for the night. Thank you everyone for the wild ride. I have a busy week ahead of me so I may not be able to continue this me-vs.-all discussion. Maybe in my absence the topic will return to bacteria. Probably not, though.

Well, if you hadn't had to bring up evolution....

[nebula]

How can you sleep at night, thinking that many of your friends and family will probably burn in fire forever?

That is why we share the gospel with them, so they don't have to, but it's like everything else. They have to make a decision. We are not responsible for their decision, only for sharing the gospel with them.

I don't know how Heaven can be Heaven for anyone with the knowledge that millions if not billions of people are in Hell. Think about it. How can you ever be at peace when your former companions endure intense, *unending* torment?

Jesus said something very exclusive. He said: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no man comes to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) Man must come to God through Christ. All other religions that use any other means are not worshipping God nor is their worshipped received by God.

This is true. However, I do not rule out the possibility of postmortem redemption through Christ. Again, I believe the existence of an eternal hell is antithetical to the loving nature of God. You simply cannot have a loving God and eternal torment, just like you cannot have a square circle.

Translation: "Did God really say...?"

Or is it: "I know better than God."?

Or: "I know what goodness is with my own understanding." (aka Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil)

Lorax, instead of seeking the Lord for answers, you have chosen to build your own answers.

[Guest]

How can you sleep at night, thinking that many of your friends and family will probably burn in fire forever?

Dear Brother, You May Or May Not Have Forgotten

"They that sow in tears shall reap in joy."

"He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him."

Psalms 126:5-6

The Folk Who Reject The Blood Of The Lamb

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;"

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:"

1 Peter 1:18-19

Are The Same Ones Who Hate God

"But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death."

Proverbs 8:36

But Father Knows Best

"Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:"

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD."

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Isaiah 55:6-9

Eternity Is Joyful

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:"

"And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads."

Revelation 22:3-4

>>>>>()<<<<<

The Kids Trust

"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."

Galatians 4:6

And Sow

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 3:16

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Jorge S]

... I have a busy week ahead of me so I may not be able to continue this me-vs.-all discussion. Maybe in my absence the topic will return to bacteria.

Fortunately the discussion mainly revolved about a topic far more important than bacteria: your current standing as a believer. It's the first time I see you coming 'out of the closet' with regards to Scripture. And I regret to say that what came out was an alarmingly shallow knowledge of the Word of God which has derailed you into gross doctrinal error.

It is imperative that you get rid of the mistaken views you have aired in this thread at your most urgent convenience. We don't have the right to question your relationship with Jesus but we have the brotherly duty to point out your misrepresentation of that relationship.

I hope to still read you around. But most of all I hope you prayerfully consider a 'Back-to-the-Bible' journey of spiritual enlightenment.

It is good when Jesus corrects us:

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; therefore be zealous and repent.

And is even better when He leads:

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

He perfectly knows -and therefore reveals- about the Spiritual and the Natural realms of existence:

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Because He created everything:

Jonh 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

[The Lorax]

never mind the 5000 plus manuscrits taht show us this is a false accusation you keep making. no matter how many times you say it, it is still false.

Could you give me a link or a name or something to go by here? There may be 5000 of those things, but I don't know where to find them.

what is natural death?

Natural death is what inevitably happens to a human as a result of the body's degeneration over time. Genocide, on the other hand, is when the lives of a whole people are cut short. Of course, you already know this.

It's amazing - you've yet to admit genocide is immoral. What's stopping you?

I have not said i was right, I have said GOD was right. GOD TELLS US THE BIBLE IS HIS WORD.

Again you assume the point you wish to prove - that the Bible is God's inerrant word. The message of the Bible was revealed and inspired by God, that is true. That we agree on. Where we disagree is how the Bible has been handled in the ages following.

so either it is or God lied.

No.

God did not lie when He said the Bible was inerrant. At the time, that was true. But again, you blindly assume the Bible has not in any way been changed by its human purveyors. If humans changed it, that would not make God a liar.

[The Lorax]

And once more: this is all just my opinion. These are my personal beliefs and I am not forcing them on anyone, nor would I presume to "teach" them to anyone. I am merely explaining why I have them at this moment.

I will admit, there is great doubt in me. However, this doubt is not in Jesus or in God, it's in the human writings about them.

If the above statements make me a "nonbeliever" in the eyes of Worthy Ministries, then I invite the moderators to change my account status accordingly. I would not mind, and in fact I think many people here would be satisfied with nothing less. The only privilege I ask is the ability to explain my beliefs when they are questioned.

[nebula]

The problem, Lorax, is that you are picking and chosing what you want to believe is human insertion and what is original.

Now, if you could find scholarly evidence for additions or changes to the Scriptures, you would have a case. But without this, you don't.

You can start by comparing the Dead Sea Scrolls to the current Bibles we have. Where any changes found to those texts in the nearly 2000 years since the Dead Sea Scrolls were written?

So, what is your researched, scholarly evidence for your claims?

[The Lorax]

The problem, Lorax, is that you are picking and chosing what you want to believe is human insertion and what is original.

Now, if you could find scholarly evidence for additions or changes to the Scriptures, you would have a case. But without this, you don't.

You can start by comparing the Dead Sea Scrolls to the current Bibles we have. Where any changes found to those texts in the nearly 2000 years since the Dead Sea Scrolls were written?

So, what is your researched, scholarly evidence for your claims?

My doubts didn't arise from literary evidence - they arose from scientific evidence and from a sense of morality that I cannot ignore. That being said, your suggestion is excellent, and it's something I plan on doing. I cannot stress enough that I am not speaking with any theological authority whatsoever. I am speaking from the standpoint of a young guy who was raised to believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, but who is finding it impossible to do so. That's where I stand right now.