Has the church replaced the jews?

[Guest On Fire]

I just wanted to know if any of you think that the church has replaced the Jews or not.

[Guest shadow2b]

I just wanted to know if any of you think that the church has replaced the Jews or not.

in a word NO-NO-NO-NO- that's 7 words but who's counting??.?? ----- just for edification,enlightment,

informational purposes--I saw a "PASTOR"??--"CHRISTIAN"??

being interviewed by some?? news organisation,several years ago,on the subject of the "JEWS" in relation to GOD'S plans for the "JEWISH" people---any how ,this "PASTOR" replied, most vehemently, with HATE in his eyes/face & words--NO!!!!

the "JEWS" are no longer in GOD'S plans, they are a worthless race who are at the center of ALL our problems everywhere!!!!!![that's NOT a direct word for word quote,but paraphrased]...the thing that amazed me was the absolute "HATE" in this mans voice for the jewish people.....

I just wonder what he is gonna do when he finds out JESUS is just about as jewish as jewish can be--HE is THE LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH-------just some observations to think on

----shadow2b{Gary}---

[Ovedya]

Nope.  Rather the church has been grafted in to the olive tree, which is Israel.  Whereas the Jews are the literal children of Abraham, the Gentile believers, us, are children of Abraham by faith. - ref. Rom. 11:17-24; Jer. 11:16; Rom. 4:16; Gal. 3:7

However, this is not to say that all Jews will be saved simply by virtue of their being born into the race of Abraham.  There is a new covenant established in the Lord's blood.

[Guest On Fire]

What i'm asking about is if Replacement Theology is true or not.  I believe that it is false, (romans 11)

[Guest shadow2b]

What i'm asking about is if Replacement Theology is true or not.

[Bill]

What i'm asking about is if Replacement Theology is true or not.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings God-man & Bill,

Rather the church has been grafted in to the olive tree, which is Israel.

This is also an error. The Olive Tree represents the "Kingdom of God" which was taken away from the Jews (they were broken off). The gentiles were grafted into their place, but one day and even now to some extent, the Jew are being grafted back into the Olive Tree, which was once under their care. The Gospels portray the Jewish nation as the "fig tree".

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Ovedya]

Hmmm, then what does Jeremiah 11:16 mean?

"Jehovah called your name, A flourishing olive tree, beautiful in fruit and form; With the sound of a great tumult He has set fire to it, And its branches are broken."

Clearly in the context of Paul's writing in Romans 11 Israel is the olive tree.  Yes, the fig tree in Matthew 21:19 also represents the nation of Israel (Jer. 24:2, 5, 8), but in Romans 11 Paul is using the olive tree also to represent Israel.

These two trees are used symbolically to represent Israel in two aspects.  In Matthew 21 the fig tree represents the fruitlesness and vanity of the nation of Israel. The tree has many leaves for outward show, but no fruit that satisfies God.  In Romans 11 the olive tree is used the same way as it is in Jermiah 11.  This is the tree that God planted Himself (Jer. 11:17), showing us that God Himself is the source - the root and fatness of the olive tree in Rom. 11:17.  In dealing with the subject of eternal inheritance, Paul uses the olive tree to represent Israel, giving reference to Jer. 11.

[wordsower]

I did a big study on this a few months ago, here is the study, hope it helps answer the replacement theology doctrine:

Definition of Israel: Strive with God

Israel's history begins with God's promise to Abraham in about 2000 BC, "I will make you a great nation" (Genesis 12:2). The name "Israel" (meaning either "one who fights victoriously with God" or "a prevailing prince with God") comes from the new name God gave Abraham's grandson Jacob, after a spiritual struggle at Jabbok (Genesis 32:28). It is at this point that the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are often referred to as the "Children of Israel." God chose these people because of His love for them and His covenant with Abraham. Not that He loved Israel more than other people, it was just that He intended to use Israel as His means to love and bless everyone. It was God's plan from the beginning to bring forth the Messiah through Israel to act as the savior for the entire world.

For more than 400 years, Abraham and his descendants rely on that promise, even during slavery in Egypt. Then God brings the people of Israel out of Egypt in the Exodus. Once God redeemed His people out of Egyptian bondage, He established a bilateral covenant with them at Mount Sinai. It is here that God delivers His Law (Ten Commandments), and promises blessings for obedience and judgment for disobedience. The remainder of Israel's Biblical history reflects a cycle of blessing and judgment based on this bilateral relationship between God and his people. Through recorded periods of military victory and loss, judges and kings, prophets and priests, exile and restoration, the nation of Israel is blessed when it follows God and judged when it falls away. The physical nation of Israel is ultimately destroyed by the Roman Empire in 70 AD. as prophesied by Jesus. At this point, the people of Israel are cast throughout the world, with the prophetic promise of their redemption and return to their land in the future. Is 11:11 It shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people who are left. This first happened after the Babylonian exile and then again in 1948 (Is 56, Is. 4, Ex. 39, Ez. 36, Amos 9, Jer. 23 to name a few which I already printed out and sent to you) In 1948, nearly 1900 years later, the redemption of the people of Israel began with the official reestablishment of the nation of Israel. Through a series of miraculous events, including the Jews retaking of Jerusalem in 1967, this generation is witnessing the fulfillment of prophecy with respect to God's special nation,( as prophesied by Jesus in Matt. 24:32-35) When God made His promise to Abraham that He would make his descendants a great nation, God also promised to bless all people through that nation (Genesis 12:1-3). Therefore, Israel was never considered a sole recipient of God's blessings, but rather, a channel for God's blessings to all mankind. God's miracles for Israel, such as their dramatic deliverance from Egypt, were intended not only for the Israelites themselves, but as evidence of God's absolute power and uniqueness for a watching polytheistic world (Exodus 7:5; 14:18; Joshua 2:9-11). The Messiah that would come through the nation of Israel was always intended to be the Savior for all mankind (Isaiah 49:6). The Old Testament also contains many invitations to the entire world to come and worship the one living God in Israel (Psalm 2:10-12; 117:1).

Based on recent events in the Holy Land, it is clear that God's promise to Abraham is still being fulfilled. Accordingly, God's promise to bless all peoples through Israel is still absolutely apparent. The teaching, death and resurrection of Jesus and the growth and influence of His church, were made possible through God's choice of Israel as His people. All people who accept Jesus as their Messiah, whether Jew or Gentile, receive the great blessings of God channeled through His chosen people, the nation of Israel. In 70 A.D. it was the Roman Empire's turn to march through ancient Israel and destroy the SECOND Jewish Temple, slaughtering or driving out much of its Jewish population. Many Jews left on their own because conditions for life were made unbearable in many respects... yet thousands upon thousands stayed and rebelled on for centuries in order to once again rebuilt a Jewish Nation in this Holy Land.

Over 3250 years, various Peoples, Religions and Empires marched through Jerusalem, Israel's ancient capital. The region was successively ruled by the Hebrews [Jews], Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Maccabeans, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Egyptians, the Crusaders, Mamelukes, the Turks (who indifferently governed the backward, neglected territory from the 16th century until the British drove them out during World War I) and then once again by the Jews in 1948. None bothered, nor were they in the least bit inclined, to build a Nation of their own... EXCEPT the Jews!

It must be noted that in 636 A.D., when the Arabs came to the land and uprooted even more of its Jews, they did not form any Arab nation there... and certainly not a "Palestinian" nation. They were simply "Arabs" who, as did others before them, moved into a geo-political area called "Palestine!" And remember this one fact... it was not the Jews who took the land from the Arabs. If anything, it was the Arabs in 636A.D. who overran and stole it from the Jews!

No nation, other than the ancient nation of Israel and later again in 1948 with the rebirth of the 2nd Nation of Israel, has ever ruled as a sovereign national entity on this land. A mighty Jewish empire extended over this entire area before the Arabs and their Islam were even born! The Jewish People have one of the most legitimate Birth Certificates of any nations in the world. Every time there is an archaeological dig in Israel, it does nothing but support the fact that the Jewish People have had a presence there for well over 3,000 years. The coins, the pottery, the cities, the pottery, the ancient texts... all support this claim. Yes, other peoples have passed through, but there is no mistaking the fact that Jews have always had a continual presence in that land for over 3,000 years. This predates and certainly dwarfs any claims that other peoples in the regions may have. The ancient Philistines are extinct. Many other ancient peoples are extinct. They do not have the unbroken line to this date that the Jews have. There is not, nor has there ever been, a distinct "Palestinian" culture or language. Further, there has never been a Palestinian state governed BY Arab Palestinians in history, nor was there ever a serious Arab-Palestinian national movement until 1964... three years BEFORE the Arabs of "Palestine" lost the West Bank [Judea and Samaria] and Gaza as a result of the 1967 Six-Day War (which the Arabs started). Even the so-called leader of the "Palestinian" people, Yasser Arafat is Egyptian!

God GAVE the Land of Israel to the Jewish People. And God does nothing by accident!

When the Roman Emperor Constantine issued the Edict of Milan in 313 C.E. making Christianity the state religion, Roman Catholicism developed their hierarchical structure that endured largely unchallenged until the Reformation. By the 3rd century, the Roman bishops had become the primary authorities within the church.

By the time of Augustine (354-425 C.E.), the Roman Catholic Church was teaching that the Church was to have dominion and authority throughout the world. During the Middle Ages, the Roman Church held authority over virtually all the rulers of Europe. History witnesses that this was one of the most oppressive periods of so-called Christianity towards those not in the Catholic Church.

Out of the Council of Nicaea, fourth century, came a declaration that that new believers accepting Yeshua must renounce everything Jewish. As a result, Christianity dropped Jewish practices and began to reinterpret the Bible in a way that affirmed their "new religion" and practices. Much of what we see in Christianity today is a result of what happened approximately 1600 years ago in Rome.

This lead to the rise of Anti-Semitism and eventually the Nazi regime.

Few still believe this since the prophesies concerning the return of the nation of Israel were literally fulfilled in 1948. Most Roman Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterians and SDA's are the churches I could find that still hold to this doctrine. The Anglicans taught it in the early church.

The prophesies of the land being restored are being fulfilled today including the Desert blossoming as a rose-Qumran, Israel Is. 35:7,8, never seen before the past decade or so.

Dead sea being healed Ez. 47:8-12 Currently the southern end of the sea is salt and has separated from the northern end of the sea. Sea is drying up at a rate of 3 feet per year.

Is. 41:18 - 3 miles of water discovered under the desert in the area of the dead sea, fresh water bursting up through the rocks.

Trees now growing where dead sea has dried up, date tree farms.

Is 27:6 35:2 the Glory of Carmel given of the desert. Presently a packing company called Carmel is exporting fruit and produce.

Is. 65:10, Hosea 2:15 Valley of Achor is between Qumran and Jericho for centuries nothing has grown here and now we have vineyards!

These prophesies were never fulfilled and are now being fulfilled in our lifetime. In addition, the religious Jews are currently making preparations for the temple to be rebuilt. They are reproducing the furniture and interestingly the snail used for making the blue dye in the tassels worn by the religious priests has been extinct for approximately 2000 years and in 1997 this snail began to wash up on the shore again making it possible for the tassels to be made again according to tradition. Reportedly a perfect red heifer was born in 2001, required for sacrifice, and to date is still without blemish.

"Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When it's branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near, at the very doors. Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things are fulfilled."

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings All,

I would be interested in Ya'akov's view if he has the time, but in any case, here are some of the reasons I KNOW that the CHURCH is NOT Israel, nor is it perceived as the NEW Israel by God, nor does it BECOME Israel, nor does it even become a PART of Israel.

1) Clearly the NT reveals a distinction between those of Jacob (Jews/Israel) and those who are Gentiles. For the purpose of salvation both Jew and Gentile shall become as ONE in the Kingdom of God toward the end of time when the "fulness of the gentiles be come in (to the Kingdom of God)", even as those now and since the cross have united in Christ as "spiritual brothers in the "KINGDOM".

2) My "high priest" is after the order of Melchizedek which was a GENTILE. He is NOT after the order of the Levitical or even the Aaronic Priesthood. Certainly NOT of Jacob "SPIRITUALLY".

3) Then we have to examine closely what these verses mean:

Romans 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

First Abraham was a "gentile", as was also Isaac and Esau, and with this we have to examine these verses:

Genesis 17:3-5 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Please note that the word is NATIONS (plural), NOT just ONE nation as in "Israel" or of "Jacob".

And when we follow this promise through we see the "physical" lineage coming through Isaac, and we see that it was in Isaac that Abraham's seed would be called:

Genesis 17:19-21 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Hebrews 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

So here is the promise made to Jacob:

TO JACOB:

Genesis 28:13-15 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

Here are the significant promises made to Jacob (Israel).

1) The Land Covenant.

2) Jacob's seed shall cover the earth.

3) In Jacob's seed shall all the families (tribes, nations) of the earth be blessed.

4) Jacob would be scattered but God would be with them and not forsake them until he has regathered them again to the land of promise.

One thing that is significant here is that there is no mention of Jacob being the "father of many nations" as was the case with Abraham. But what it does say is that Jacob shall BLESS all the nations of the earth, which in fact he did. It was through Jacob that we see the Levitical Priesthood established and through whom many, if not most, the OT prophets came, as well did our Savior - Jesus Christ.

You must remember that Jacob is only ONE of the nations that would be of the SEED of Isaac. The other SEED of Isaac is ESAU who married into the family of Ishmael. Esau was a GENTILE, as was Isaac and Abraham. It was NOT until Jacob was renamed ISRAEL that the lineage of the Jewish nation have its establishment. It was through Israel that the 12 tribes came which included Levi AND Judah. There is some speculation on this, but it is believed that the word JEWS came as it applied to Judah. Before this the lineage passed up the line through the Hebrews. Today we look at Jacob/Israel/Jews/Hebrews as being synonymous. Some even include Abraham and Isaac, but this is incorrect because the RACE of Israel, the Jews did not exist until Jacob/Judah.

So as for Jacob we see this verse in the NT:

Romans 3:1-2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

As I mentioned above, we received the OT from the Jews. We received many if not most of the OT prophets from them. We received Jesus from them - all might inclusively be called the "oracles of God".

But UNDERSTAND, Jacob is NOT our "father in the faith", and He certainly is not the FATHER of the GENTILES "physically".

4) Now I have gone into much of the "physical" aspects of Jacob, but what the NT looks at is the "spiritual" application and thus we types and anti-types drawing the OT into view and pointing to the realization of them in the NT.

I have already pointed out the FACT that Jesus was NOT of the Levitical Priesthood, but of the order of Melchizedek. The actual TYPE