Alcohol

[oliva]

I myself hold the position that it is unwise, and from what I've read in the Word, it just isn't a good idea- unless it's wine consumed by someone who is sick and/or dying. Both Proverbs and 1 Timothy state that.

I plan to evaluate the Greek text to see specific meanings for the words used in their contexts.

But anyways, my reason for asking is because I've knocked heads with my girlfriend a few times about the issue. She says, "I've never tried it. What's wrong with just trying it? I mean, Jesus drank wine... it's okay as long as you don't get drunk. It's not a sin."

What I need is scriptural evidence for the the doctrines concerning alcohol; whether or not it should be consumed or not.

Thank you.

Bless you for the desire to find out what is right or wrong...............

1. noone here on earth is perfect-but we look forward towards that day

2. If i am correct, Jesus said, anyone taking part at drunken parties, will not enter into the kingdom of heaven

3. He didnt say you cannot get drunk by yourself......but i wouldnt recommend it.

4. Jesus also said to be careful with alcohol, " Many evils are amongst that path " *****************

5. What would we think if Jesus got drunk?

6. i think He could handle alcohol He is perfect....we arent yet....tolerance levels change ...and you may want more...and more..

and ..........He wants us to be an example to others............

7. If a person doesnt have a problem with alcohol, an occasional drink is ok, but , if you are having it around a christian, and it bothers

them, then i would have it elsewhere.........*****

[kross]

It does not say that Elders are to abstain. That is a notion that you are placing upon the text that is not there. You are interpolating it. You are stating something as fact that is not fact.

Titus 1:6-9 6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless-- not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8 Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

It says not given to drunkeness, not that he is to abstain. You are adding something to the scripture that is not there.

We have already gone over this but I need to memorize it anyway.....the Greek reads "not given to" in Timothy 3:3 and the Greek in Titus 1:7 reads " not one beside wine"

Your translation is not a transliteration but a poor paraphrase of what is really said. We need to check the Greek if we are going to form doctrine from a passage.

Again every Christian is called to be "Not given to drunkenness" so even baby Christians could be elders if that was the only rule in becoming one..it makes no sense.

No one has answered why Timothy was abstaining when Paul said take a little wine for stomach sake..care to take a stab at it?

Thank you for answering kindly to me.

There is wisdom in abstaining. GODly wisdom for that matter. But, Paul is clearly saying there is wisdom is using wine properly and he is clearly advocating using wine. It would seem odd to use some of Paul's writings to say he felt drinking wine was a sin and then use this point to show Paul advocating sin in order to settle your indigestion.

[Servant54]

Do you think they could just run down to the 7-11 and buy a gallon of milk? There may have been a few options but they were as seasonal as Easter chocolates. The fact is that wine for dinner was as culturally accepted as the norm. Therefore, anyone who didn't drink wine whatsoever would have been considered "special" and it would have been mentioned.

Did Yeshua not say in Matthew 26:29

"But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

That meant He wouldn't drink wine at His last Pesach seder. The implication is that He had done so in previous times past.

Now...knowing how some will respond and say that "Fruit of the Vine" is not fermented, I will point you to the verse which speaks of this banquet when the Father's Kingdom comes.

Isaiah 25

6The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;

A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,

And refined, aged wine.

7And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,

Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.

8He will swallow up death for all time,

And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces,

And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;

For the LORD has spoken.

9And it will be said in that day,

"Behold, this is our God for whom we have waited that He might save us

This is the LORD for whom we have waited;

Let us rejoice and be glad in His salvation.

TWICE in one verse does the Lord mention this is fermented wine.

Please....deal with what the bible says in an intellectually honest manner. There is no prohibition against fermented wine.

Period

Actually they did have 7/11's in bible times and they had tramways to them that donkeys carried them on. The 7/11 were called 8/10's in that they were not open as earlier or as late.

Yes, I am just making it up as I go along and if I can not back it up right next to what I am say with some historical proof from some contemporary's writings it just becomes my story of how is was right?

Now you know how we feel when you have no proof of what you say.

////////////////

Thank you again for the parroted argument of God having a booze bash in heaven. We have already dealt with that text... basically the Hebrew does line up with the translations saying "aged wine". just not there..its made up. Just plain grape juice.

Sorry I had to be the one to bring it to you.

[Servant54]

The reason I stated I thought Timothy was a pastor is because that is the general consensus our there in Christiandom. Paul was writing to Timothy so even though he was Paul's underling he was not with Paul during this time.

Note in Timothy he was instructing him to instruct others........ sounds like a pastor...

Again, there is no such thing as a pastor in the Bible. There are only three offices in the Bible: Apostle, elder, deacon. There is no "pastor."

Timothy WAS an Apostle, so my point still remains that Paul and Timothy had the same doctrine and the likely hood is that if Timothy drank water only then Paul did the same.( At least when in Asia Minor) They would not have had a different belief system, especially since Timothy was under Paul.

This is not evidenced in Scripture at all. Where have you read that Timothy drank water only?

Before everyone argues that Timothy was not an apostle they better study Thessalonians.

Timothy was actually not an apostle. You could make such an argument convincingly, but there is no identification of Timothy as an apostle directly in Scripture. All the other apostles were identified as such, but not Timothy. This is why I used the term "co-worker" in my earlier response. Typically Apostles "plant churches." Timothy was left in Corinth to oversee the church there.

I did they above study just so I can get it into my own mind, fresh , the proofs for Timothy most likely being a pastor. It has been 30 years since I learned this teaching.

The term "pastor" is the modern interpretation of the Biblical elder. There is no "pastor" in the Bible. In the KJV there is a verse in 1 Peter, I believe, which says "pastor the flock among you..." That word translated "pastor" in the Greek literally means "shepherd." That word was written to the eldership, not to "pastors." In fact that word is used again in a subsequent verse which says that the "When the Chief Shepherd returns..." How odd it would be to translate that word again as "pastor." Yet it doesn't. You may think that's splitting hairs - pastor vs. elder - but the meaning of the term today is completely lost from its original intent, and it's foreign to its intended function in the church.

Well this is all fine and good..why are you still talking about this?

Thessalonians has the answer to Tim as an Apostle..did you even read it? It is there.( Hint.. See Tim and follow pronoun trail to apostle.)

Doesn't Eph 4;11 have pastors.......... "poimon" Greek (elder/bishop is episkopos Greek)

Yes, I think you are spilling hairs I am kind of wondering why this rabbit trail ever got started.

[Servant54]

BTW Servant: You didn't address my response regarding fermentation.

Yes, you are right..you had such a great point I just did not have an answer.

Just kidding.

Actually I Googled your own definition and down below your definition it talked about fermention involving fungus and decomposition.

I posted it but must gave goofed.

The fact is you can post a definition of fermentation that sounds like there is no corruption because they call it" chemical change", but that IS corruption.

That is exactly what goes on when making bread rise, the process of the yeasts changing the sugars to alcohol and gasses escaping.

He knew no sin. Sin is typified by leaven.

[Servant54]

Strong's translates the Hebrew word Skekar as "Strong Drink" in every passage and has people buy "strong drink" as part of their tithe.."what ever you heart desires God says"...A TOTAL MISTRANSLATION BY KJV and STRONGS. But they were drinkers so it had to be strong drink...not.

I speak and read Hebrew and Strongs is not wrong. First of all the word used in Deut. 14:26 is uvah-sh'kar and it is used in more than one place to refer to strong drink. The same word is used for one of the kinds of drinks the Levites were not allowed to partake of.

In Psalm 69:12, drunkard is known as "sotei sh'kar. There are numerous ways to show that this is a reference to an intoxicant.

Yes, I agree the word is used as a strong drink. And yes, it is used as a drunk.

Now can you prove it is not used in any other way? Is it a generic word like those for spirit and wind in the NT? I believe it can refer to any of the products from the date palm sap. What is the word from the non alcoholic drink?

Modern Hebrew is not DIRECTLY connected to ancient Hebrew correct? They differ some correct?

We have proved Wine( Yayin Heb) can be used for grape juice or an alcoholic drink so why could the word next to it. Makes perfect sense.

[Guest yod]

Thank you again for the parroted argument of God having a booze bash in heaven. We have already dealt with that text... basically the Hebrew does line up with the translations saying "aged wine". just not there..its made up. Just plain grape juice.

Sorry I had to be the one to bring it to you.

Ya know what?

I just realized that you are neither sincere about the truth nor about having a civil conversation.

i've wasted too much time on such foolishness already

Adios

[Servant54]

Thank you again for the parroted argument of God having a booze bash in heaven. We have already dealt with that text... basically the Hebrew does line up with the translations saying "aged wine". just not there..its made up. Just plain grape juice.

Sorry I had to be the one to bring it to you.

Ya know what?

I just realized that you are neither sincere about the truth nor about having a civil conversation.

i've wasted too much time on such foolishness already

Adios

Adios yod.

I of course was just ribbing you. Sorry. I did not mean to have you run off because of it. Yes I am serious about the truth, that is why I answered you. Aged wine in just not mentioned in the Hebrew .....period.

[Servant54]

There is wisdom in abstaining. GODly wisdom for that matter. But, Paul is clearly saying there is wisdom is using wine properly and he is clearly advocating using wine. It would seem odd to use some of Paul's writings to say he felt drinking wine was a sin and then use this point to show Paul advocating sin in order to settle your indigestion.

Obviously Paul was speaking of a medical use for wine, he is not "advocating wine" as in advocating social drinking.

If someone wise advocated you using Nyquil for your bad cough, I would not thing they were saying it would be ok as a social drink.

The bible only advocated wine for medical use.

[Ovedya]

BTW Servant: You didn't address my response regarding fermentation.

Yes, you are right..you had such a great point I just did not have an answer.

Just kidding.

Actually I Googled your own definition and down below your definition it talked about fermention involving fungus and decomposition.

I posted it but must gave goofed.

The fact is you can post a definition of fermentation that sounds like there is no corruption because they call it" chemical change", but that IS corruption.

That is exactly what goes on when making bread rise, the process of the yeasts changing the sugars to alcohol and gasses escaping.

He knew no sin. Sin is typified by leaven.

Actually that's incorrect. Leavening is not the same as decomposition. the leaven, or yeast, in bread, reacts with the sugars and causes the bread to rise. In grapes the leaven/yeast turns the sugars to alcohol. Again: Chemical process, not decomposition.

Now, as to types you are absolutely right that leaven signifies corruption (But not with respect to decomposition). Leaven in bread, or flour, typifies the corruption of the world. However that significance is only as pertains to bread, not to wine. In the case of wine the leaven has no significance. You cannot use the same typology with wine. Wine in the Bible, particularly alcoholic wine, signifies the invigoration of the Holy Spirit.

I appreciate that you are a student of typology, brother, however in this case you've got the type wrong.

For your edification: http://online.recoveryversion.org/footnote...=357&q=wine http://online.recoveryversion.org/footnote...2396&q=wine http://online.recoveryversion.org/footnote...6026&q=wine