Related to Discernment Topic

[GoodSamaritan]

Do you use the early Church writings or the Didache to aid your Scriptural discernment? Do you use the writings of Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeous, Papias, Eusebius, Clement I and other early Church fathers to aid you in discerning and understanding the meanings of Scriptures as the early Church would have understood these writings (these men lived before the Scriptures were canonized, and in some cases, even written)?

Do you use the Didache (the Doctrine of the Twelve Apostles) to assist your discernment?

These documents are uninspired writings by people who knew and followed and shaped the early Church. As they are not Scriptural, they have no validity, but can they be used for us to understand the practices and thought processes of the time? Does this understanding lead to more accurate understanding, or does it serve to "muddy the waters"?

Or should they be dismissed in favor of later discernments of other Church fathers (in particular - Church fathers of the Middle Ages)?

Or, are none of the above correct, and we are free to gleen whatever meanings we may?

God Bless

GS

[Ovedya]

I would say that regardless of whether the so-called "church fathers" or any other writings up our age are used, or not, they must all measure up the the revelation of the Scriptures.

[truseek]

I am familiar with most of the works you cited, but not the Didache. I have read them, and some of them did influence my spiritual growth. Mainly Thomas Aquinas and Augustine.

Yours in Christ

Truseek

[stevehut]

Do you use the early Church writings or the Didache to aid your Scriptural discernment? Do you use the writings of Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeous, Papias, Eusebius, Clement I

Some of the people you mention here (and some others) are the very people who helped to assemble the New Testament for us.

There were hundreds of

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Irrespective of what is written all rightings must be judged against scripture.

All Praise the Ancient of Days

[GoodSamaritan]

Irrespective of what is written all rightings must be judged against scripture.

That's quite a standard you've set for these writings. If they 'measured up to Scripture', they'd be inspired and in the Bible, right?

The words, 'Personal Lord and Savior' or 'Personal Relationship With God' are nowhere to be found in Scripture. All revelation was in the form of a 'deposit of faith' to the Apostles and the succession of these Apostles is based in Scripture. The teachings of the Apostles were both written and oral, just as Moses' were written and oral. In Jn 17, Jesus prays, 'I do not pray for these Apostles only, but also for those who believe in me through their word (oral and written), that they may all be one.' He goes on to call this Church built upon the foundation of the apostles 'the pillar and foundation of the truth.'

In Acts 1, Peter immediately moves to name a successor for Judas and even quotes Psalm 109 'his office will another man take'.

The problem with interpreting Scripture in a vacuum is that everybody brings their own baggage to this process. This is precisely why Peter claims that no matter of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation. (2Pet 1:20)

Writings from Church Fathers are CRUCIAL to understanding of Scripture. This is because they enumerate exactly what the first Christians were teaching and doing. The writings were not deemed 'inspired'(by whom, we've already discussed), that is, worthy of inclusion in the canon, but are considered useful, as we see in Timothy, 'to teach, reprove...' I can't see Jesus telling a secret to his Apostles and then, when all were dead, not making provision for the historic progression of that secret.

I recognize the Christian concept of spiritual enlightenment and I do not discount that. But how could any Christian really understand the full meaning of their bible without knowing the historical perspective behind it? And thus, how can a Christian really understand the historical perspective and milieu behind it without studying the early Christian "fathers?"

I think another way of saying this is that many of us learned to read english by reading "Dick and Jane" books. So "Dick and Jane" is formative to our discernment process, as that is where we learned our first verbs and nouns and sentence structure. So everyone is reading through their "Dick and Jane" filter, as well as all the other filters we accumulate in life.

So by checking our discernment against other believers, we can check our filter as compared to their filter.

So the Topic has to do with checking your filter against those in the early Church who did not have the benefit of walking directly with Christ, but those who learned from the Apostles.

St. Epiphanius puts it in good perspective: "Now of these which is wiser? This deceived man (Aerius) who has just now obtained notoriety, and who is still living; or they who were witnesses before us, who held before us the tradition in(or for) the church, and who themselves had received it from their fathers, whose fathers again had learnt it from their forefathers, even as the church, having received the true faith from its fathers, retains it, together with the traditions, even unto this day." Epiphanius,Panarion, 75(A.D. 374-377),in FOC,I:433-434

Considering many Evangelical Churches claim to be based on the blueprint of the early Church in terms of doctrine, practice, and structure, I'd think the Fathers would hold a special place for them.

An interesting factoid. Do we use any extra-biblical writings in our ceremonies/mass or is it purely Scripture and nothing else?

At the end of Lord's Prayer ("Our Father who art in Heaven ...), there is a doxology - "For thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory ...".

Some Faiths use this prayer in their worship, ending with the Scriptural source (Luke and Matthew both contain this prayer; Matthew is the one most used) - "... and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." There is a doxology added ("For Thine is the kingdom ..."), which is not contained in Scripture.

The source of this doxology is the Didache - it is not found in Scriptures. The Didache doxology is "For Yours is the power and the glory, forever." The words "the kingdom" came into the doxology later (The Apostolic Constitutions), but the root source is the Didache.

FYI, The Didache was a writing from somwhere between 60-160 AD which was, in essence, a 'manual' on how Christians were to act, live, and celebrate. It is very dictatorial but was never considered an 'inspired' writing.

God Bless!

GS

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Once again

Irrespective of what is written all rightings must be judged against scripture.

All Praise the Ancient of Days

[GoodSamaritan]

Once again

Irrespective of what is written all rightings must be judged against scripture.

So I'll take your answer to be 'No'? The writings of men who were taught by the Apostles are of no use in discerning Scripture? NO extra-biblical writing is to be used to help you figure out what Scripture says? So how would you know who 'Jannes and Jambres' are in the epistle of Paul? How would you know about the references to the Book of Enoch in Jude and other NT writings? How would you know whether Jesus was speaking 'symbolically' or not regarding the Eucharist if you don't want to know what the first Christians actually believed and did? How would you know about the Trinity since the word is never used in Scripture but was first used by a Church Father? Just curious.

GS

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There is a Helper in my faith that is commonly called the Holy Spirit. We Followers of The Messiah Immanuel rely on Him to guide us in all knowledge and understanding that we need for salvation. You can rely on your church "Fathers" if you want. But if i was ever placing my salvation into another ones hand, that hand would never be the hands of a human.

Hear the Word Of my Messiah.

Matthew 23:9

Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[BoldlyProclaimingChrist]

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Matthew 23:9

Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

A RESOUNDING AMEN!!!!!!!!