mizzdy Posted June 30, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted June 30, 2009 Who says that? You'd be surprised. The amount of conflicting interpretations of God's word and what we're supposed to do to get into heaven and how important the Old Testament is today and so on and so forth that I've received over the years is, frankly, staggering. I always point out to them that, with all the different denominations and sets of beliefs out there, simply "being a Christian" is by no means a guarantee to salvation, because then we have the issue of what sort of Christian I'm supposed to be, and of course every side is convinced that their own view is correct. It's like playing a game of roulette and having to stake your soul on a single number. It's all very well saying "You'll come to your own personal truths" (if that is indeed what you would say; some people certainly do) but in my case, my "personal truth" is that it makes the most sense not to be a Christian, so apparently personal truths are unreliable. I had to chuckle reading this and used the very same arguement for decades. We as humans make everything we do seem so much harder than it really is. Churchianity, religion, even chrisianity will not save you nor anyone else, its your relationship to G-d and His Son is what matters. I used to get the 'well if you just opened your mind you'll understand', or the personal truths avenue also. The facts for me was so not like that, I had all kinds of personal truths what was lacking was the biblical truths. When I quit reading everyone elses opinions and ideas and just stopped it all and actually decided to read the bible with no preconcieved ideas or theology that I started to get a glimpse. But I admit it wasn't until I was another track in life that something else started to happen and for some really strange reasons what I was researching kept running back to some biblical stuff and to me made no sense whatsoever. Since I have never believed in coincidences I thought maybe I was getting some kind of message! lol Anyhow I was lead back to G-d and His Son and the words that were left for me to read. I was not lead into a denomination, group or anything else and spent a few years reading and studying on my own. I still do not go to a church and have never felt lead to one even after intense prayer. Its kinda sad that people are only worried about getting to 'heaven' and not about how they live their lives here on this earth and how we treat each other. I would also offer that the entire books of the bible are important not just 'old or new' its an entire collection of books that work together, start at the beginning and go to the end just like any other book you might read. G-d said He reveals the end from the beginning, not that Yeshua somehow came decided on something different and said well when the other books are finally written I want you to disregard those ones that lead my children out of the desert and showed them my ways for millenia to be thrown out and forgotten, they all work together. Well sorry for the long post, just putting out my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted June 30, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 30, 2009 I should also point out that I actually kind of agree with damo1's recently deleted posts regarding women. Or, well, I would if I was a Christian, anyway. 1 Timothy quite clearly says to "suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man", and there is absolutely no indication that he is only talking about churches. So how can it possibly be hateful or sexist or rude to insist that women "learn in silence"? It's the word of God, and therefore it can't be any of those things. Right? If you're going to follow the Bible, you need to follow the Bible. Can't just dismiss the parts you don't like the sound of. Yes, Paul is instructing Timothy about church matters. You twist scripture like someone we are all too familiar with, trying to divide and cause dispute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sysvr4 Posted June 30, 2009 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 112 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) I always point out to them that, with all the different denominations and sets of beliefs out there, simply "being a Christian" is by no means a guarantee to salvation, because then we have the issue of what sort of Christian I'm supposed to be, and of course every side is convinced that their own view is correct. Speaking in the strictest sense of the word "Christian" and referencing the Bible (KJV), the guarantee of salvation has nothing to do with denominations or doctrinal beliefs: Acts 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Edited June 30, 2009 by sysvr4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted June 30, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I should also point out that I actually kind of agree with damo1's recently deleted posts regarding women. Or, well, I would if I was a Christian, anyway. 1 Timothy quite clearly says to "suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man", and there is absolutely no indication that he is only talking about churches. So how can it possibly be hateful or sexist or rude to insist that women "learn in silence"? It's the word of God, and therefore it can't be any of those things. Right? If you're going to follow the Bible, you need to follow the Bible. Can't just dismiss the parts you don't like the sound of. What is your motivation for saying this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted June 30, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Churchianity, religion, even chrisianity will not save you nor anyone else, its your relationship to G-d and His Son is what matters. This, again, is just another view that doesn't square with others I've heard. I've heard plenty say that Church is important, the Eucharist is important, all kinds of things aside from this "relationship" are important. And even if people do say it's just the relationship that's important, opinions differ on how exactly one maintains the relationship. I was not lead into a denomination, group or anything else and spent a few years reading and studying on my own. Because of how you interpreted it. However you choose to phrase it, this is another case of "personal truth". You might argue "Oh, it's not how I interpreted it, it's what the Holy Spirit wants me to do." Great, but there are just as many people who will say exactly the same thing and yet have views that conflict with yours. Unless they're all just lying about their supposed revelation and only a select few people have actually got the right idea, you'd think the Holy Spirit could be a little more consistent in guiding people's beliefs. I would also offer that the entire books of the bible are important not just 'old or new' I'm talking specifically about the commandments and laws in the Old Testament, many of which are simply not followed today. And yet some disagree and say they're still important. Who are these mystery people you hear things from? Internet posters? If you look at the mass of Christians in the world today, and importantly thier doctrine; they agree on the essentials, the important essentials of the faith. It is too bad we don't agree on 100% of everything, but we are still human and flawed. This is where the statements of faith come into play what we believe, worthy has one for this board tha we all agree on and yet we come from hundreds of different denominations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted June 30, 2009 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted June 30, 2009 If you're going to follow the Bible, you need to follow the Bible. Can't just dismiss the parts you don't like the sound of. Very true...which is why we must keep the Word of God in context to the WHOLE. BUT if we do get it wrong... "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I should also point out that I actually kind of agree with damo1's recently deleted posts regarding women. Or, well, I would if I was a Christian, anyway. 1 Timothy quite clearly says to "suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man", and there is absolutely no indication that he is only talking about churches. So how can it possibly be hateful or sexist or rude to insist that women "learn in silence"? It's the word of God, and therefore it can't be any of those things. Right? If you're going to follow the Bible, you need to follow the Bible. Can't just dismiss the parts you don't like the sound of. I haven't totally kept up with the entire thread but I'd like to drop in on something here. Thracius, I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you have to say. As a former atheist, I not only understand you..I know you. Jesus says that He wishes we were either hot or cold (love him or hate him) rather than being lukewarm. I see in you someone who is looking for the truth...albeit with an attitude of anti-christian bias. I don't blame you one bit. I was the same. There is a whole lot of baloney in the institution known as christianity and there are too many people willling to follow traditions over truth. Most of them simply can't discern the difference. Please forgive them. YOU are exactly the kind of person Jesus is looking for. A no-nonsense get-r-done kind of person. I believe that when you finally come to the end of your search for Truth, you will find Jesus was waiting for you the whole time. And I fully believe that God has a tremendous purpose for your life. Someday I expect you will be an evangelist. I know how hard that is to accept right now...but remember me when it happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted June 30, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 30, 2009 Yes, Paul is instructing Timothy about church matters. You twist scripture like someone we are all too familiar with, trying to divide and cause dispute. The dispute is already there, are are a thousand other disputes, so nothing I say is going to "cause" it. Not once is the word "church" used anywhere in that chapter. OK, he does goes on to talk about bishops...in the next chapter. After he makes his statement about women. I also invite you to look at the context. For example: "I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting." Men everywhere. Not "men in church". Also bear in mind that this is consistent with the demand that wives "submit to their husbands", be in subjection to their husbands, etc. The dominion of men is emphasises repeatedly throughout the scriptures. Are you sure I'm the one doing the twisting here? Paul is addressing Timothy, a young pastor, about what he is facing within his responsibility to the church in Ephesus. His challenges are about false doctrine, public worship, and mature leadership within the church. Even though it was common in those days to see people in public worshiping, taking what is being said about women and trying to place it outside the church is twisting scripture and taking it out of context. Yes, I am very sure that you are trying to cause an uproar, as you very well know your words will. Scripture warns us about people who do this ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abbershay Posted June 30, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 49 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 562 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 30, 2009 I am new here so take it easy on me. I went to an Apologetics conference last month taught by Richard G. Howe, Ph.D. from Southern Evangelical Seminary & Bible College in Matthews, NC. They came all the way to Naples, Italy (Napoli, Italia) to hold the conference. It was a total mind melt for me. However, I used the information I gained to help me in my ever going work debates with my Atheist co-workers. I am in the US Navy and have been so for 15 years. When I first got in to hear someone just run you through spiritual battles was not heard. However, now every day is a challenge. From one line puns to getting them Debunking God tracks. For me there nothing more then messages says in allot of words YOUR STUPID WE HATE YOU. After the apologetic conference I thought I would have enough ammo to fight back. WRONG the biggest question I get is how you believe in something you can't see. So I used the fact that I can't see gravity but I know it is there. The come back was well you know there is gravity because you can test it, but you can't test God. Being the Christian I am it is hard not to step out of my turn the other cheek and say WAKE UP to these guys. In the end it just comes down to one thing. The don't want to believe. Even if God was five feet in front of them they probably wouldn't believe. Anyway I am writing on and on so I will end it here. What do you tell an Atheist when they say you can test gravity but you can't test God? You need to look at this from more of a spiritual aspect. I have seldom seen anyone changed from debate as they will only dig in to their position and will not listen no matter how true what you say is One may argue the bible but why should they listen to the bible if they dont even belive in God? Plus God doesnt call our minds he calls to our heart. This doesnt mean that we are lacking in intellect because if you truly are smart you will realize how ignorant you truly are in the whole scheme of life and its workings. Father draws on the heart . This is why it is better to not argue so much . However you do need to be bold with your faith in God. I would tell of your experiences with god and i would also start to pray for them. Be vocal about it too tell them that you are praying for them and tell them you are going to be sending them dreams Via the Holy Spirit. This does wonders . Let them know that you are there when they are ready and be ready to listen to the Holy spirit when he tells you things to say to them. Much prayer and faith the god is going to work in their lives and not futile debate . You have more power than they do so use that Spiritual power and come against those spirits of prise and arogance intellect that are holding them back. Bind em then get to work . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveller Posted June 30, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 827 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 12,101 Content Per Day: 1.50 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 3 Joined: 04/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 30, 2009 Thracius why are you spending your time on these things when you don't even know Jesus? Priorities, friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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