sysvr4 Posted July 3, 2009 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 112 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted July 3, 2009 (edited) I once heard a particularly religious mathematician speaking of the certainty of intelligent design, citing repetition of the apparently rational, predictable patterns observed in nature which, by definition, couldn't be created by the processes of arbitrary chaos. Consider the following: Imagine a hypothetical universe expressed as a multi-dimensional array, infinite in scope and density. Within the array patterns observed would necessarily be unpredictable, non-indicative anomalies of the scope of the array and therefore insignificant. Edited July 3, 2009 by sysvr4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I once heard a particularly religious mathematician speaking of the certainty of intelligent design, citing repetition of the apparently rational, predictable patterns observed in nature which, by definition, couldn't be created by the processes of arbitrary chaos. Consider the following: Imagine a hypothetical universe expressed as a multi-dimensional array, infinite in scope and density. Within the array patterns observed would necessarily be unpredictable, non-indicative anomalies of the scope of the array and therefore insignificant. Science depends on a universe of uniformity. Astronomers cannot successfully make accurate predictions about the moon, stars and asteroids without it. In fact, no field of science would exist in an unordered, universe lacking logic, design, and uniformity. Even in areas of space we can see where conditions are quite different, there is still consistent uniformity. Science is possible only because we live in a universe that is logical, predictiable due to possessing an obvious order to it. There are no parts of the universe tat would be unpredictiable and infact, no universe could exist that was not completely ordered. The concept of an orderly, logical universe only makes sense within the biblical creation model. So the hypothetical universe you suggest is really a nonstarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted July 3, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 3, 2009 I once heard a particularly religious mathematician speaking of the certainty of intelligent design, citing repetition of the apparently rational, predictable patterns observed in nature which, by definition, couldn't be created by the processes of arbitrary chaos. Consider the following: Imagine a hypothetical universe expressed as a multi-dimensional array, infinite in scope and density. Within the array patterns observed would necessarily be unpredictable, non-indicative anomalies of the scope of the array and therefore insignificant. Science depends on a universe of uniformity. Astronomers cannot successfully make accurate predictions about the moon, stars and asteroids without it. In fact, no field of science would exist in an unordered, universe lacking logic, design, and uniformity. Even in areas of space we can see where conditions are quite different, there is still consistent uniformity. Science is possible only because we live in a universe that is logical, predictiable due to possessing an obvious order to it. There are no parts of the universe tat would be unpredictiable and infact, no universe could exist that was not completely ordered. The concept of an orderly, logical universe only makes sense within the biblical creation model. So the hypothetical universe you suggest is really a nonstarter. Well put; the idea that order can come from chaos is illogical. The universe is an orderly place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted July 3, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 3, 2009 Science depends on a universe of uniformity. Astronomers cannot successfully make accurate predictions about the moon, stars and asteroids without it. In fact, no field of science would exist in an unordered, universe lacking logic, design, and uniformity. Even in areas of space we can see where conditions are quite different, there is still consistent uniformity. Science is possible only because we live in a universe that is logical, predictiable due to possessing an obvious order to it. There are no parts of the universe tat would be unpredictiable and infact, no universe could exist that was not completely ordered. The concept of an orderly, logical universe only makes sense within the biblical creation model. So the hypothetical universe you suggest [sysvr4] is really a nonstarter. Well put; the idea that order can come from chaos is illogical. The universe is an orderly place. But not too orderly. The Moon is heavily cratered and the Earth, because of its larger size, has been struck with greater frequency. The craters visible on the Moon are the result of impacts over the course of billions of years. Earth being geologically active has errased much of the evidence, but every body in the solar system, that has been observed and that lacks means to modify the surface, displays signs of the same heavily bombardment. This is one clear piece of evidence that the solar system is billions of years old. It is clear that the formation of the solar system depends on impacts. This is how planets acquire mass, it is how they form. The best evidence suggests even that the Moon is the result of a large impact of a Mars size body with the early Earth. The present orderliness we observe in the solar system is the result of billions of years of planetary bodies sorting out their orbits from an earlier controlled-chaos. The control was gravity. The universe is not a neat and tidy place. Stars explode and send shock waves through neighbouring space, and if an interstellar cloud of substantial size is near enough that shock wave may trigger a cascade of events that begin a new wave of star and planet formation. Hence, birth from chaos (unless you consider super nova explosions orderly). The universe acts, and reacts, the way it was designed to function. The idea that everything is random and serves no purpose is ludicrous and illogical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 3, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Imagine a universe where adding 2 and 2 together never results in the same number. Imagine a universe where a square peg can fit into a round hole - because there are no such things as square and round. Imagine a universe where the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter cannot be calculated (or can be expressed as the same number). If I was a bit more creative, I could express more and better examples. Perhaps you can think of more? But consider these things, and then answer this: would it be possible for solar systems, planets, and life to form from such a universe? If so, how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted July 3, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 3, 2009 But not too orderly. The Moon is heavily cratered and the Earth, because of its larger size, has been struck with greater frequency. The craters visible on the Moon are the result of impacts over the course of billions of years. Earth being geologically active has errased much of the evidence, but every body in the solar system, that has been observed and that lacks means to modify the surface, displays signs of the same heavily bombardment. This is one clear piece of evidence that the solar system is billions of years old. It is clear that the formation of the solar system depends on impacts. This is how planets acquire mass, it is how they form. The best evidence suggests even that the Moon is the result of a large impact of a Mars size body with the early Earth. The present orderliness we observe in the solar system is the result of billions of years of planetary bodies sorting out their orbits from an earlier controlled-chaos. The control was gravity. The universe is not a neat and tidy place. Stars explode and send shock waves through neighbouring space, and if an interstellar cloud of substantial size is near enough that shock wave may trigger a cascade of events that begin a new wave of star and planet formation. Hence, birth from chaos (unless you consider super nova explosions orderly). I'm not convinced that the universe is anything but orderly. There may be apparent chaos, but things only seem chaotic due to our ignorance. Even a super nova would be entirely predictable if we had knowledge of every particle and every force acting on those particles. Were it a chaotic and random event we would expect to occasionally see super novas reverse mid explosion, speed up, slow down, etc. Instead, we see these explosions proceed in accordance with natural laws. The question is not whether the universe is ordered, that is really a given. The question is where did this order come from? The order came from the giver of all things.....the Creator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 3, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 3, 2009 The question is not whether the universe is ordered, that is really a given. The question is where did this order come from? Nice to hear a non-Theist express this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sysvr4 Posted July 3, 2009 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 112 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 3, 2009 Allow me to explain the concept more simply: The mathematical model presented is an array of infinite scope and density, the values of which are implicitly random. This represents an infinite multiverse. Because the (matrix) of hypothetical values is so large, any patterns or apparent "logic" that one may observe are necessarily insignificant given the scope of the set. The point is thus: Intelligent design cannot be proven or even rationally implied based on random data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 But not too orderly. The Moon is heavily cratered and the Earth, because of its larger size, has been struck with greater frequency.The craters visible on the Moon are the result of impacts over the course of billions of years. Earth being geologically active has errased much of the evidence, but every body in the solar system, that has been observed and that lacks means to modify the surface, displays signs of the same heavily bombardment. This is one clear piece of evidence that the solar system is billions of years old.Age is not the issue. So far, nothing you have presented indicates that the univserse is not ordered/ It is clear that the formation of the solar system depends on impacts. This is how planets acquire mass, it is how they form. The best evidence suggests even that the Moon is the result of a large impact of a Mars size body with the early Earth. The present orderliness we observe in the solar system is the result of billions of years of planetary bodies sorting out their orbits from an earlier controlled-chaos. The control was gravity.Even if that is true, it would still demonstrate an inherent design. The universe is not a neat and tidy place. Stars explode and send shock waves through neighbouring space, and if an interstellar cloud of substantial size is near enough that shock wave may trigger a cascade of events that begin a new wave of star and planet formation. Hence, birth from chaos (unless you consider super nova explosions orderly). No one said the universe is "neat and tidy." The fact remains that the universe is ordered and uniform, and without such, science would not be possible. Diversity is not the absence of order. Exploding stars does not necessarily indicate a lack of order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted July 3, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 3, 2009 Allow me to explain the concept more simply: The mathematical model presented is an array of infinite scope and density, the values of which are implicitly random. This represents an infinite multiverse. Because the (matrix) of hypothetical values is so large, any patterns or apparent "logic" that one may observe are necessarily insignificant given the scope of the set. The point is thus: Intelligent design cannot be proven or even rationally implied based on random data. No...you're looking at that logic from the perspective of a mortal. God isn't subject to the boundaries of our understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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